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Scam Alert! (Part 2) "Its a Small World"

By
Services for Real Estate Pros with NOW Sharing the life and spice of the GC one day at a time

Part 1 ended with "Why would someone turn in a bogus request for a CMA giving a mortgage lenders' email address and phone #"?

Not finding peace in the situation, I decided to see if I could contact the real property owner. That was easy enough, I cross referenced the tax record owner name with the local phonebook and matched addresses.  A sweet sounding older woman answered the phone. I explained first of all that she did not know me, I am a local REALTOR, and that I would need her patience as I explained the reason(s) for my call. I also let her know that I was not trying to convince her to list with me or in any way do business with me. (I forgot to check the DNC list--oops...)

I went over the information with her that I had already shared with you. I asked her if she had recently applied for a loan, or, if by chance she might be in a foreclosure situation. She answered no to both of those questions. I apologized for bothering her, but she assured me that she was glad that I called. She felt that alerting her about inquiries of her property address was the right thing to do. We both agreed that under the circumstances it might be prudent for her to keep an eye on her bank accounts, credit cards, and mail. If she felt uncomfortable about anything to contact a trusted party for help.

About an hour later my phone rang. I expected the call. It was from relatives of the above property owner. Now, they were concerned about my contact with the elderly mother. Once again, I began going through the information.  Come to find out they owned the home in back of the mom. The address was the same except that their address had an "A" attached to it.  They had recently applied to refinance their home through the previously mentioned lender. 

However, the description of the property in the lead did not match either property. By this time things had just become more nebulous. This couple did not have a current internet conncection so I could not easily show them what I was talking about (also a strong indication that they would not have turned in the lead, then denied having done so). I told them I would bring the documents over as I lived about 5 minutes away.

After looking the lead over and comparing it to the property tax printout the owner immediately called his Loan Officer/Consultant. When the owner asked him why he told me that he had no knowledge of the address, the loan guy told the owner that it was their policy to claim "no knowledge" when unknown people called about properties--because once loan information hit the Internet others try to "piggyback" and get in on the transaction somehow (I did not hear this explanation, this was how the owner explained the response to me). The property owner asked me if I was familiar with the "piggyback" term. I had no choice but to tell him that I, personally had not heard of that concept--but, it could be a valid explanation. I told them I would go to my network to see if there was a logical explanation for any of this. He asked me to please inform him of any feedback I get from my "network".

A few minutes later the Mortgage Consultant called the owner back to let him know his closing was set for 4 days away. (Odd timing). I left with nothing completely resolved. At least the owners of both homes are aware that the mom's home has been fraudulantly placed on the Internet for a CMA. We could proably get to the bottom of this only if the lead provider were willing to reveal the computer that the lead actually originated from.

Although the couple was not buying or selling, they mentioned they have friends who are considering selling. They asked for several of my cards. Maybe this was a lead after all, it just required a LOT of unexpected work.

Market information: What did I find out?

1) The owner of the "A" property did ask me if the mentioned mortgage company was reputable. I reponded that I did not know, this was the first I had heard of them,

2) By this time I had so much invested in this information exchange, I felt I could ask a point blank question and get away with it. I asked them, "Did you check with local mortgage companies? ...Why would you go to an out of state lender?"

3) Yes, they did check locally. The rates were better with the lender they went with.

4) There are several "morals to the story" here. One that I got straight from the consumer is, "buy local is a good motto, its nice to trade with local people, but locals still need to be competitive with rates." So, I guess in the end it doesn't matter how much effort we put into the community, how much civic leading we do if our pricing is not competitive.

This is the end. Really. If you stuck with me this long, please tell me--What would you have done? Should I have simply dumped a bogus lead and gone on with my life? Was I correct in alerting the owners that someone was turning in their property for CMA requests?

Your professional comments will be shared with consumers. Thank you.

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       Always Believing in...    

Due Diligence Should Begin With you.

 

 
Lysa Napolitano
Daytona Beach, FL
Suzi, obviously you are a kind and caring person. I read both blogs and at first wasn't sure where you were going with them. I think you did the right thing. I can't remember if the online CMA was a tax record with the owners name? But the whole thing did sound fishy. Going the extra mile for this family you've not met and are not working for shows their friends you're willing to work hard to help anyone find what they are looking for in a home and will give you wonderful word of mouth advertising. Way to go girl!
Jan 26, 2007 10:23 PM
Bob Sloop, Consultant, Indianapolis, IN
RS Mortgage Consulting - Indianapolis, IN
Suzi, I agree with Lysa, you went the extra mile.  I have a feeling this is the type of person you really are, by doing the right thing, means many rewards are coming your way in this business.  Good luck.
Jan 26, 2007 11:47 PM
M. Suzi Woods (Gravenstuk)
NOW Sharing the life and spice of the GC one day at a time - Grand Canyon, AZ
Suzi Woods, Prior Independent REBroker in MS
Thanks. This was a tough one because it is so long. My intention really was nt to bring attention to myself but to find out what was going on. The whole situation could have been a prank on me, it could have been a scam. I have had several classes lately that touched on fraud. Also, thanks to AR member Ed Rybczynski, and his gift to all of "Crossroads" I may be hypersensitive to fraud, or the potential of fraud. One point that Ed brought out is that as professionals, whether in the title specialization or other fields, "Ignorance is not an excuse".  So, I'm still looking for the line of demarcation: where does our responsibility end? At what point can we say that situation was not my responsibility? At what point can we turn our backs if something does't seem to fit? With every step I took I asked myself, can I drop this now? What are the possible repercussions?
Jan 27, 2007 12:41 AM
Lysa Napolitano
Daytona Beach, FL
Suzi, with the amount of fraud going on against the elderly i am sure the minute you heard the elderly womans voice on the other end of the phone you knew right then and there you couldn't drop it. The people committing fraud outnumber the people trying to stop it, does our reponsibility actually ever end if we're on the right side? Just remember this.. What goes around comes around. For you that will mean all good things.
Jan 27, 2007 02:06 AM
M. Suzi Woods (Gravenstuk)
NOW Sharing the life and spice of the GC one day at a time - Grand Canyon, AZ
Suzi Woods, Prior Independent REBroker in MS
You have just Royally blessed me. You are right, when I heard her voice, I thought, "uh-oh" (not very professional thinking). But, there were other issues, too. I was also a stranger to the woman. I expected a call from a concerned family member and was glad I received their call. I expected someone to be suspicious of my call.
Jan 27, 2007 02:29 AM
Jim & Maria Hart
Brand Name Real Estate - Charleston, SC
Charleston, SC Real Estate
I know we've received numerous bogus CMA requests in the past, and we just ignore them and move on.  I commend you for alerting this family to the request, and for going above and beyond what most agents would do.  I'm sure that you will be richly rewarded for your good deed!
Jan 27, 2007 05:58 AM
Ed Rybczynski
Integrity Real Estate - Havre de Grace, MD
Your Source for Local Real Estate

Suzi

I have one question.  We know that the mother who lives in the front parcel is not in foreclosure.   Would you happen to know if the son (parcel A) is in foreclosure and/or bankruptcy?

Jan 27, 2007 06:23 AM
M. Suzi Woods (Gravenstuk)
NOW Sharing the life and spice of the GC one day at a time - Grand Canyon, AZ
Suzi Woods, Prior Independent REBroker in MS

Ed, the son had refinanced. The address  belonged to the mother in the front house. Her home is paid off free and clear. The description did not match either house.The lender had ordered an appraisal. I can't see that they would need a market analysis from a REALTOR.

 It really makes me suspect the "lead" business, especially in regard to sellers.

Jan 27, 2007 07:09 AM
Ed Rybczynski
Integrity Real Estate - Havre de Grace, MD
Your Source for Local Real Estate

Suzi

I agree with your concern as the fact pattern is highly unusual.  Think about it: Who doesn't have an internet connection today?  I know that it's possible, but still.

I can't speak personally to suspect practices by lead generators.  I do know a thing or two about predatory lending practices.  Do you think that it's possible that the son is going to mortgage his mothers parcel along with his own to obtain a higher loan amount?  I do!  I'm willing to bet that the lender uses it's own title company.  It would come as no surprise to me if the son had a POA for his mother.  I'm just speculating, but I've learned one sure thing about fraud.  If you get the sense that something is off; it is.  In this case ,there are just too many pieces that don't fit the puzzle when they should.  Do I think that something is wrong?  I do and also suspect that the son needs the additional money from the front lot to pay off debt.

I applaud your efforts to protect the interests of an older person.  We have a social contract as professionals to look after those who are unable to look after themselves.  As in this case, the disadvantage people who need our help the most are those that are least able to ask. 

There's not a thing that you can do to come between mother and son. 

Something tells me that the CMA was ordered because the son is in bankruptcy (Chapter 13) with the lenders full knowledge and an appraisal couldn't be used to establish value with the court.  The refinance had to be kept a secret for the bankrupcy to be dismissed.  Due to the timing of the phone calls, I'd bet that the lender and son are working together to some degree.  Just a hunch, that's why the CMA was ordered with the lender showing as the owner. 

I wish that there was more insight that I could offer.

Jan 27, 2007 07:34 AM
M. Suzi Woods (Gravenstuk)
NOW Sharing the life and spice of the GC one day at a time - Grand Canyon, AZ
Suzi Woods, Prior Independent REBroker in MS
Ed, I appreciate your response. I always consider the possiblility that I am over reacting. I like things to be in order and make sense. I guess it is time for me to leave things alone now. I still feel uneasy, and I may have alerted the wrong party (the son). But, the mother is aware of it, too.  While I was at the son's home he got the lender on the phone. Because the lender was charging them for an appraisal in the refi, I asked the son to ask the lender about the appraisal.  It was a 1200sf older home in imacculate and updated condition appraised at $120K by an Ocean Springs appraiser. One more twist, and this could have been purely coincidental--the appraisers first name was Mike and the bogus 1st name on the lead was Mike. The last names were different.
Jan 27, 2007 08:20 AM
Ed Rybczynski
Integrity Real Estate - Havre de Grace, MD
Your Source for Local Real Estate

Suzi

I'd let it go.  You've done everything possible by talking to the mother.  Sometimes you just have to walk away and hope for the best.  There were definitely too many coincidences in this story.

Jan 27, 2007 08:56 AM
M. Suzi Woods (Gravenstuk)
NOW Sharing the life and spice of the GC one day at a time - Grand Canyon, AZ
Suzi Woods, Prior Independent REBroker in MS
Ed, I appreciate your guidance. I'm relieved I did not send any information.  Could a party actually use a REALTOR's market analysis as substantiating value in a court of law--even though we stress that a CMA is NOT an appraisal? I may be too cautious, I just don't want to get suckered into a situation and get blindsided. "Ignorance is not a valid excuse".
Jan 27, 2007 04:12 PM
Lillianne Echevarria
Your Pad | Real Estate Services - Roanoke, TX

I think what you did was very thoughtful and caring. IMHO. Alerting the owner was the right thing to do. I am sure that these people will remember you whenever real estate is on their minds. What goes around comes around!

Lillianne Mida

www.dallas-texas-real-estate-guide.com

Jan 28, 2007 11:39 AM
M. Suzi Woods (Gravenstuk)
NOW Sharing the life and spice of the GC one day at a time - Grand Canyon, AZ
Suzi Woods, Prior Independent REBroker in MS

Everyone--thanks for helping me think this one through. If I get anymore Internet leads, I'll probably just send them to Damion. I seem to feel more comfortable if I know the players and the game.  

Wouldn't you think that If a mortgage company turned in a bogus lead, they would know that the address would be cross referenced?

Damion: Sidebar:-) I will check my boxes. Thanks. Also, I visited your awesome site clicking off of realtor.com .  (market info: I was checking on what others were doing. Of course you were there:-) If you click on LB, its not working.

 

Jan 28, 2007 03:17 PM