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You Want WHAT, Amanda??

By Eric Kodner

Real Estate Broker/Owner with Wayzata Lakes Realty: Eric Kodner Sells Twin Cities Homes

March 07, 2008 07:49 AM

Frances Flynn Thorsen, a fellow member of ActiveRain, has a RealTown blog where she has written a post there entitled "Let's Learn How to Help Americans KEEP Their Homes". Thorsen is an e-PRO and real estate educator who is on a mission to educate colleagues in the real estate industry about the need to offer assistance to consumers facing foreclosure.

What caught my eye when I read Thorsen's blog was the comments of a couple of individuals who responded critically towards her message. One commenter (a real estate broker) described people facing foreclosure as "whiners" and a "victim class". Some of that commenter's equally unsympathetic reactions were as follows:

"When markets go south for awhile, suck it up"

"Cycles come and go"

But probably the most interesting comment came from a paralegal named "Amanda", who wrote that she deals with foreclosures every day. She commented,

"until I hear some homeowners admitting some responsibility for their hardship, I don't know if they can be helped."

Let me get this straight, Amanda..

You want homeowners to apologize for losing their jobs? For being ill or unable to find work?
You think they owe you an apology for being in financial trouble?
Will it make you feel better, more righteous, more morally superior when they do that? Is that what you want?

Thorsen responded, "PEOPLE ARE LOSING THEIR HOMES IN RECORD NUMBERS AND WE MUST HELP THEM! THAT is the only answer, Amanda. They do not owe YOU an explanation". She added "We owe it to ourselves and to the economy".

Yes, we have victims. We also have folks in our industry that like to play the blame game. And it's convenient to blame the foreclosure mess on people who got in over their heads. But blaming people doesn't do much to straighten things out, does it? How about demonstrating a little compassion for those facing foreclosure?

At a time when real estate and mortgage professionals are wringing their hands over their less-than-flattering image in the eyes of the consumer, wouldn't it be a swell idea to take a look at where some of those negative public perceptions come from?

You go, Frances!

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Matthew Heavener

ERA Heavener Realty Co. - Jacksonville, FL

I agree people need a kick in the pants when things are going good, when you kick em when things are going bad...well, you should probably just help em up.

Mar 07, 2008 08:01 AM

Eric Kodner

Wayzata Lakes Realty: Eric Kodner Sells Twin Cities Homes - Minnetonka, MN

Wayzata Lakes Realty: Twin Cities, Madeline Island

That's a positive approach, Matthew. Not much gets accomplished by kicking someone when they're down.

Mar 07, 2008 08:05 AM

Eric Webster

Five Star Real Estate - Grand Rapids, MI

Grand Rapids, MI, Five Star Realty

WOW. Pretty scary, but it explains a lot. No profit too high... and kick 'em when they're down.
Certainly there are likely people who used their homes like ATMs, and made some bad decisions. But regardless of how they go there, it's a bad situation for everyone.

There's no situation that cannot be made worse by behaving like a jerk.
Thanks for the eye opener, Eric

Mar 07, 2008 08:39 AM

Eric Kodner

Wayzata Lakes Realty: Eric Kodner Sells Twin Cities Homes - Minnetonka, MN

Wayzata Lakes Realty: Twin Cities, Madeline Island

Eric, it's true that some didn't use good financial sense and that led to their situation. But I have met people facing foreclosure who lost their jobs or wound up hospitalized and unable to work.

Some in our industry are very judgemental. And some of them seem to want to believe that everyone facing foreclosure is dishonest. There's not a whole lot of empathy out there!

Mar 07, 2008 08:45 AM

Kim Carpenter

Coldwell Banker - Alton, NH

Lake Winnipesaukee REALTOR -Lake Winnipesaukee Real Estate, NH

IT really is amazing to hear people like Amanda talk. It is sad... sometimes circumstances pave the way...you cannot lump everyone facing forclosure in the same category. Each situation is unique. Hmmm... what's worse is that there are a lot of people like her.

Mar 07, 2008 08:57 AM

Eric Kodner

Wayzata Lakes Realty: Eric Kodner Sells Twin Cities Homes - Minnetonka, MN

Wayzata Lakes Realty: Twin Cities, Madeline Island

Kim -- Originally, I intended to title this post "Got Sympathy?" (you know, like "Got Milk?") but I figured my answer was already there.

I've read a lot of posts here by members who automatically assume that people in foreclosure were speculators or people that lied on their mortgage application. It never occurs to some that there are folks who genuinely got in trouble that was not their doing. With all the jobs being sent overseas in this country and February's job statistics (reported today as the biggest loss in five years), is it any wonder that some are losing their homes?

Mar 07, 2008 09:09 AM

Scott Smith

Coldwell Banker Residential Brokerage - Gloucester, MA

Gloucester & Rockport, Massachusetts

My hunch is that Amanda either rents or lives at home with her parents. Her parents probably paid for her education. She feels entitled. She looks at the attorneys that dump on her everyday with disdain.

She feels no empathy for the unfortunate because she cannot relate. She doesn't need to. She is not invested in the system in the form of a mortgage.

As one with a hefty mortgage and contemplating extensive renovations on my home, I worry whether about the value of my home and the appreciation should I decide to sell one day. If my partner loses his job, we are screwed. That's my reality.

Mar 07, 2008 09:18 AM

Kathy McGraw

CELLing Realty - White Water, CA

Riverside County CA Real Estate

Eric- When I was at Frances's Blog last night there weren't any comments yet. I know I would have been ticked off at anyone that acted so pompus....and you said it perfectly. A job loss, a divorce, medical problems.....there are many reasons other than ARMS that have people in difficulty right now. thanks for bringing this to the e-PRO Group Eric :)

Mar 07, 2008 08:06 PM

Eric Kodner

Wayzata Lakes Realty: Eric Kodner Sells Twin Cities Homes - Minnetonka, MN

Wayzata Lakes Realty: Twin Cities, Madeline Island

Scott -- There's no doubt that people are worried. Even those who are not currently "upside down" in their mortgages are wondering if they will be. Prospective buyers are fearful that they will be paying too much if they buy now.

You mentioned the loss of a partner's job. Many households are a payment or two away from catastrophe. Households that have one steady income and one self-employed person are no exception.

Despite what I've written above, I still read quite a few unsympathetic, judgemental posts on AR, some from folks in the mortgage industry and others from agents and brokers. The assumption on their part is that people facing foreclosures are all deadbeats and speculators who got caught taking huge risks at the expense of the general public. And those assumptions are unfounded in many cases.

The "face" presented to the public by the real estate industry needs to be one of calm and rationality. It also needs to be a helping hand at times. Prospective clients aren't looking for a lecture on fiscal responsibility. They're looking for help. Being patronizing or judgemental isn't going to improve things.

Mar 07, 2008 09:29 PM

Eric Kodner

Wayzata Lakes Realty: Eric Kodner Sells Twin Cities Homes - Minnetonka, MN

Wayzata Lakes Realty: Twin Cities, Madeline Island

Kathy, you bring up an excellent point. Not everyone in trouble has an ARM, nor were they all "subprime" at the time they purchased their home. Not all were "minimum down" buyers and not all were "speculators".

Mar 07, 2008 09:33 PM

Ruthmarie Hicks

Keller Williams NY Realty - 120 Bloomingdale Road #101, White Plains NY 10605 - White Plains, NY

Medical bills NOT COVERED BY INSURANCE are one of the biggest causes of bankruptcy in the US!

I have to wonder if some of the pompous posturing that I hear could be due to the fact that no one wants to entertain how vulnerable THEY REALLY ARE. By making derogatory remarks, we absolve ourselves of our own insecurity. "It will NEVER happen to ME! I'm too smart for THAT!" we say. But in our hearts, we know the truth: Supply side voodoo economics has ripped the security net right out from under all but the top 0.1%. Those people enjoy fabulous wealth beyond our imagination. But the price of being able to attain such extreme (gluttonous) wealth is tremendous insecurity for 99.9% of the population that doesn't "make it big." I say that's way too high a price.

Mar 08, 2008 02:41 PM

Eric Kodner

Wayzata Lakes Realty: Eric Kodner Sells Twin Cities Homes - Minnetonka, MN

Wayzata Lakes Realty: Twin Cities, Madeline Island

Ruthmarie -- I've encountered agents who told me over and over again that "business is good" and that they are doing fine. Some of them, I later learned, hadn't had a closing in months. I don't know why some feel the need to posture and even lie about their situation. Maybe it's pride or shame. Maybe it is, as you say, vulnerability and insecurity.

We're in a public service industry. We meet consumers every day who need to sell or buy. Some are going through divorces, a death in the family, a job loss or transfer, whatever. The last thing the consumer needs from an agent is a judgemental, morally superior attitude.

Mar 08, 2008 03:48 PM

Dax Dickson

Your Trusted Finance - Saint Paul, MN

Your Trusted Finance

Most foreclosures I have seen are not from the loss of a job or anything close to that. There are three things I see again and again:

1.) Agents over sell buyers - So many times I have heard from agents... "What is the absolute most you can qualify this person for?"

2.) LO's did not explain the loan or pressured client

3.) The buyer/borrower knowing signed on a stated loan, adjustable loan or neg-am that with in years they could not afford.

Is sucks! The borrower does need to own up a little. Builders, agents and LO's are being called to the table. I agree with Amanda. If us in the business are getting called to the table so should the borrower.

There are the exceptions. If people lost jobs or maybe a death in the family the borrower has a reason and I hope they are able to work through it. As for all the stated loans and adjustable mortgages that borrowers did not understand...

IT WAS UP TO THEM TO REVIEW THE DOCUMENTS WITH A THIRD PARTY! They signed them, they are liable.

I wish the mortgage companies would start doing foreclosure by action instead of by advertisement.

Mar 10, 2008 01:07 AM

Eric Kodner

Wayzata Lakes Realty: Eric Kodner Sells Twin Cities Homes - Minnetonka, MN

Wayzata Lakes Realty: Twin Cities, Madeline Island

Mike, please explain to me how borrowers "owning up" is going to help the economy or fix the foreclosure crisis.

Right now, I'm in contact with four different parties who are facing foreclosure. None of them had stated income, ARM or negative amortization loans. Two of the four either lost jobs or took a cut in pay because their company is in trouble. A third was in an automobile accident and their coverage ran out. None of them have had much luck trying to get their borrower to negotiate anything.

I don't agree with Amanda, not at all. I don't believe people facing foreclosure owe her a thing.

Mar 10, 2008 11:04 AM

Audrey June-Forshey

RE/MAX Realty Services - Darnestown, MD

GRI, Gaithersburg, MD

Eric, Good for you for sticking up for the folks. A few of my most loved clients have had life changing events that put them in a foreclosure situation. They break my heart. I want to save them and just don't have the wear with all to do it. I think Amanda must see so much of this going on she is probably desensitised to the the problem. She should be thankful she has a job, I know many title people that are looking for work. Then maybe she could "walk in their shoes?" Bet it would look different then?

Mar 10, 2008 02:03 PM

Eric Kodner

Wayzata Lakes Realty: Eric Kodner Sells Twin Cities Homes - Minnetonka, MN

Wayzata Lakes Realty: Twin Cities, Madeline Island

Audrey -- What is behind the '"grudge" on the part of some in this industry that makes them believe we should punish people who are already besieged by the foreclosure process? We don't have debtors prisons in America. What good does it do to kick people who are already down? And if there's no proof that they committed fraud or lied about their financial picture to obtain a mortgage, why lump them together with the ones who did?

Mar 10, 2008 03:55 PM

Karen Webster...Grand Rapids, MI Realtor

5 Star Real Estate, Grand Rapids MI - Grand Rapids, MI

Shush with the debtor's prisons! Some people might think it's a good idea.

Eric and I have talked with several families facing foreclosure. I'd say about 1/4 of the cases we've seen are due to financial stupidity. Many more resulted because people trusted their mortgage originators who screwed them over. Or there was a divorce. Or a job loss.

It's easy to get judgmental when you've got yours. I think Scott's right. Amanda probably rents or lives at home.

Mar 14, 2008 03:45 PM

Eric Kodner

Madeline Island Realty - La Pointe, WI

CRS, Madeline Island Realty, LaPointe, WI 54850 -

Karen, I have actually read comments and posts by a few on AR who have suggested that bringing back debtors' prisons would be a good idea!

There is a bizarre lack of compassion by a few in our industry. Perhaps they see compassion as a weakness, a human frailty. Their role model is a president who is always right, who never admits he failed or misjudged or listened to faulty advice. This compulsion to be seen as infallible has rubbed off on some of the public.

The economy has reached a point where being judgmental is a luxury we can't afford. Bear Stearns got bailed out today, because it had to be done. Those who want people in foreclosure to grovel or apologize appear to be looking for ego gratification and a feeling of superiority.

Mar 14, 2008 03:58 PM