Reserved Parking For "The Lovely Wife"...TLW...ROAR!

Blog Boy...

No matter how many standards we plow through I still don't see what we're looking for...

I will now await that proof. If someone finds it at least I'm not the one who posted this blog :)

TLW...ROAR!

With IDX, a listing reads "courtesy of XYZ realty"

With point2 agents sites, you have agreed to it by the handshake agreement to display others listings but and that is a BIG but.... they all look like yours when consumers get them. Many calls from it and consumers think it is my listing, so I run to the MLS to give them the data and explain it is not my listing but we share listings. On my search site, we always say, "courtesy of blah, blah, blah. 

Concerning IDX, if you have other brokers permission then you can share that listing anywhere. It is handled at the local board level. If the brokerage doesn't give permission (most do in our area) then their listings go out in your IDX feed to the sites you want it to.  

BB,  This is such a murky area, but I agree with your reasoning and rationale.  I was always under the impression that if you have the broker's permission, then you can advertise the property.  The street sign is very cool!

Bryant- For a Florida Agent, I totally agree with you. There is nothing I can read in the Florida statutes that prohibits the syndication of our listings and neither in the COE. It is hard to compare our state to others as I have found through my coaching agents around the country and Canada that some places have some really weird laws regarding real estate stuff! 

Broker B~ Out here in CA things are getting tricky, but they are definitley swinging in that direction..we have to include Broker name, the word Agent or REALTOR(R) the State, and an MLS disclaimer on all ads. Soon we will have to put license #'s next to agent names!

Our ORS require that the name of the principal broker's/sole broker's brokerage be prominantly displayed, as well as the name of the listing licensee.  That issue with the Point2NLS site would not fly by Oregon laws.

I see some agents "advertising" new condo developments as if they were the listing agent/company. This would seem to be equally fraudulent.

Bryant:  What you say, and how you have explained it, makes sense.  I agree with you.  Thanks for sharing.

I know in California, we do have to have the name of the Borkerage in all of the feeds. I noticed several of our local Agents do not have this on their sites. I'm sure this wwill come up in one of our MLS meetings. by the way, that is cool what you did with your name on top of your blog. how did you do it?

That is a very interesting topic that you bring up.  I will be watching this post to see what other have to say. 

Bryant,

As I understand it in NC, the listing company's name must be dsplayed.  No contact info other than is needed.  Course, anyone can "Google" the company name, and find the contact info...but that is beside the point.  Here it is supposed to read "brokered by xyz agency."  Not sure about the unethical issue...if you are posting your listing to any site that has "sister sites", then it would seem to me that you are authorizing the ad anywhere it may show up. 

I end all my internet ads with Dawn Workman, MBA, Realtor~~~~~~~~~~~DPR Realty, LLC~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~480-540-8100

I'm a builder so I am not restrained or choked by all this agency rule. It seems to me we need to discuss the benefits of the sellers not the rules of engagement. Does exposure not help the seller client move the home quicker and as the listing broker dont you get paid faster?

BB,

Our MLS allows for any agent to authorize their listing to be advertised if they choose to. If it's not allowed then they must remove it...they also have to disclose that it's another offices listing.

Broker Bryant

You raise an interesting point.   It is ambiguous wordingBut I would have to agree that it is not illegal or unethical.

Texas is pretty much the same, although I personally have a policy that if I do advertising of another broker's inventory, I do so only after getting written permission from both that broker AND their client.  I have checked with the legal counsel from the TEXAS ASSOCIATION OF REALTORS® about this and received a consensus opinion that this was not only legal, but was ethical as well.

The biggest problem that I have run into is that many brokers don't want a buyer's agent to sell their listings and they actually make a big deal out of this when you request permission or attempt to do so.  Since I run a team, I am always looking at ways to boost my lead generation for the buyer's agents on the team and this is one way to do that.  Both sides of the transaction are represented (so it is good for both clients), both agents are compensated (so it meets the goals of reciprocity and cooperation), but there are brokers out there that still vehemently resist.  With the Internet, Web 2.0 and the world of buyer's agency right alongside seller's agency, I really don't get why this is still such a HOT TOPIC?   Maybe some one here can enlighten me...  Perhaps?

All listing information must be accompanied by the brokerage office representing the property.

Good morning. The issue, at least in this post, is not whether or not others can advertise our listings, but rather if they do, do the listings need to have OUR contact info. Also, bearing in mind that Trulia, cyberhomes, odle etc are International sites and would not be capable of meeting the requirements of each individual State's laws.

So if we syndicate to these sites and our brokergae info is not displayed according to our State's laws are we jeopardizing our licenses. And if so....how de we control where our listings go once they hit the Internet? 

I can't get this question out of my head!!!

Nevada administrative code:

      NAC 645.613  Dissemination of certain unsolicited information through Internet or electronic mail. (NRS 645.050, 645.190)  A licensee disseminating unsolicited information concerning real property or marketing real property through the Internet or electronic mail:

     1.  Shall be deemed to be engaged in advertising and shall comply with the applicable provisions of this chapter and chapter 645 of NRS relating to advertising.

     2.  Shall make all disclosures, obtain appropriate signatures and follow all requirements set forth in this chapter and chapter 645 of NRS before entering into a relationship as the agent of a client. The clicking of an acceptance box on the Internet or in an electronic mail is insufficient to create such a relationship between the licensee and the client. As used in this subsection, "appropriate signature" means the legal signature of the client.

     (Added to NAC by Real Estate Comm'n by R031-04, eff. 11-30-2004)

More NAC:

NAC 645.610  Restrictions on advertising; use of name under which licensee is licensed. (NRS 645.050, 645.190)

     1.  In addition to satisfying the requirements set forth in NRS 645.315:

     (a) An advertisement of the services of a licensee for which a license is required under chapter 645 of NRS must not be false or misleading.

     (b) Except as otherwise provided in this paragraph, a licensee shall not use his name or telephone number or the name or telephone number of another licensee of the brokerage firm with which he is associated in any advertisement which contains the words "for sale by owner," "for lease by owner" or similar words. A licensee may use his name or telephone number in an advertisement for property if the licensee has an ownership interest in the advertised property and the advertisement contains:

          (1) If the licensee is a real estate broker, the words "for sale by owner-broker," "for lease by owner-broker" or substantially similar words; or

          (2) If the licensee is an agent, the words "for sale by owner-agent," "for lease by owner-agent" or substantially similar words.

     (c) The name of a brokerage firm under which a real estate broker does business or with which a real estate broker-salesman or salesman is associated must be clearly identified with prominence in any advertisement. In determining whether the name of the brokerage firm is identified with prominence, the Division shall consider, without limitation, the style, size and color of the type or font used and the location of the name of the brokerage firm as it appears in the advertisement.

     (d) A licensee shall not publish or cause to be published any advertisement or place any sign that makes any reference to the availability of a specific property which is exclusively listed for sale by another broker unless the licensee obtains the prior written consent of the broker with whom the property is listed. Such consent must not be given or withheld by the listing broker without the knowledge of the owner of the property.

     (e) A licensee shall not advertise or otherwise conduct business under a name, including a nickname, other than the name under which he is licensed to engage in business.

     2.  If advertising under the name of a franchise, a broker shall incorporate in a conspicuous way in the advertisement the real, fictitious or corporate name under which he is licensed to engage in business and an acknowledgment that each office is independently owned and operated.

     3.  As used in this section, "advertisement" includes, without limitation:

     (a) Any unsolicited printed material and any broadcast made by radio, television or electronic means, including, without limitation, by unsolicited electronic mail and the Internet, billboards and signs; and

     (b) Business cards, stationery, forms and other documents used in a real estate transaction.

     [Real Estate Adv. Comm'n, § VII subsecs. 2 & 3, eff. 10-31-75]-(NAC A by Real Estate Comm'n, 8-21-81; 12-16-82; 4-27-84; 12-27-91; A by Real Estate Div., 3-1-96; A by Real Estate Comm'n by R186-99, 1-21-2000; R111-01, 12-17-2001; R031-04, 11-30-2004)

Now that I have effectively bored you to death!

Yes, we need our contact info per state law (NV).  I do believe when you create something from a templated website such as Point 2 or Vflyer, that your contact information is built right in to the electronic flyer prior to syndication!  I think that would satisfy the law.  Are you saying this is removed after we create them?

As for advertising under names like "Broker Bryant" or "The Lovely Wife", I don't think you would be able to do that in Nevada unless you registered the fictitious name.  What are your thoughts on that?

Bryant:  I read that post yesterday too and felt that we couldn't be held liable for something that wasn't within our control.  Now, being with Coldwell Banker (whom Dan mentioned in his post), I have to wonder if we would be considered "affiliated" and then possibly held liable for their decisions to syndicate.  To my knowledge, we have no control what the corporation does with their database of listings.  So.... we aren't in control, but we are affiliated.  It makes me wonder, but that's about all.  I still think it could be strongly argued that we had no control over the syndication.  Seems that the only control would be if there were a federal law which prohibited syndication without the inclusion of the agency name and contact information.  We have had people complain to us that their listings were still showing up on some random site (far after closing), but all we can do is explain to them that we have no control over this and the best we can do is contact the web host and ask that the listing be removed.  It's difficult to decide what is more important... exposure of the listing or control of the content.  

I will have to read the post you referenced to, you make a good point and I'm guessing the laws vary state to state.  I don't see why it would be unethical or illegal but I had better check the laws in Colorado!

Bryant -

Great post on an important issue!  I do disagree with you on this as you know. 

As far as FL State law you are correct except that you did not check the FREC Rules.  Here is a link to the page dealing with rule 61j2-10.025 that deals with advertising https://www.flrules.org/Gateway/View_notice.asp?id=2096187 .  The final adopted rule states as follows:

Section (1) All advertising must be in a manner in which reasonable persons would know they are dealing with a real estate licensee. All real estate advertisements must include the licensed name and phone number of the brokerage firm. No real estate advertisement placed or caused to be placed by a licensee shall be fraudulent, false, deceptive or misleading.

And Section (3) (a) When advertising on a site on the Internet, the brokerage firm name as required in subsection (1) above shall be placed adjacent to or immediately above or below the point of contact information. "Point of contact information" refers to any means by which to contact the brokerage firm or individual licensee including mailing address(es), physical street address(es), e-mail address(es), telephone number(s) or facsimile telephone number(s).

I have bolded the portions of interest.  Somehow I don't think that FREC makes a distinction between information which you directly placed as advertising and information that was sent to a third party from a site you advertised directly with.

I think the bottom line here is that every place you advertise on line has "terms of service" which is just a contract for syndication, and by setting up a user ID and a password and clicking on the "I agree" box by the terms of service when you register you may be giving permission to the other party to disseminate your information in ways that you don't like.  The fact that you did not read the terms of service may make you able to say "I did not know," but you still gave contractual permission and signed that you did read the contract.

I still think if you expect a customer and client to read the 18 or so pages of forms they have to sign to list a house in FL, and the additional 15 or so pages involved in writing a sales contract (you know in addition to the contract there are brokerage disclosures, property disclosures, disclosures about mortgage and title companies, home inspectors, escrow, advertising, etc.), you can take the time to read the terms of service and should be responsible for your acceptance of those terms.

Again I think the law and the COE are pretty clear, and if you grant permission for illegal or unethical syndication in the "terms of service" that you accept without reading, ignorance of what you agreed to should not be a valid defense particularly in an industry that is run by contracts and disclosure.  If you find that one of your syndication partners has violated the terms of service, do you contact them and demand they stop?  If not they have your tacit approval.  To let this go by with a nod and a wink is wrong.

Another question to ask is why all these companies WANT to syndicate our listings in the first place?

Here's a hint; it's not because they're public spirited nice guys who want to help you get the listing sold. 

The answers starts with ad______ and ends with "ing" which also spells "money" for them.

Just because you can advertise your listings on 5,000 different websites doesn't mean you always should.

BTW, most IDX and NAR internet listings display standards require the listing company name and phone number be displayed.

I don't see how there could be any liability or ethics violation on your part.  You have limited control, if any, for what others show on their websites. 

I do think that by not advertising on their website that the listing is yours, that is definitely a Code of Ethics violation if the advertiser is a Realtor. It would also probably violate Florida law.  The advertising is just plain old deceptive.

I believe NAR has been trying to argue this point for years in the DOJ lawsuit that has been ongoing.

Good post!  It really comes down to the managing broker's decision of whether or not to post listings that way.  IDX is one thing with it's own agreements.  Adding listings to other sites is another altogether.  You may want to check into state law regarding advertising listings without the brokerage information, too.

Bryant,

Perhaps this will help. I once asked a proponent of electronic documentation, "If there is no paper copy of the document, who 'owns' it...'who does it belong to'..."? His answer, "Once the information is in 'cyberspace' it belongs to no one"!!! Maybe you can 'translate' that for me!!! Thanks,   Fran

Just once I'd like to see a discussion not of whether or not someone broke "a rule", but whether or not the rule makes any sense in today's environment.  Clearly rules that have stayed the same for too long should be re-evaluated from time to time.

Usually a reference to the mls, in our case the mls logo, is sufficient and the listing brokerage need not be mentioned on our sites.

All IDX and NAR internet listings display standards require the listing company name and phone number be displayed or this is how all of my listings have been display on the internet.

daniel

I got a kick out of Lenn's picture...  But, I'm not following the logic.  Most IDX feeds I see around here don't have the listing broker's info attached to the listing.  We are affiliated with the MLS, and they are sending out the listing info without the broker info...  Seems like a violation.  Of course, I think if anyone actually went after this there would be a stink like no other... I don't want other broker's names on my site, and i would bet they don't want mine on theirs.  

Hmmm, interesting point.  My gut level is that it wouldn't be illegal to post your ad to a website that in turns syndicates them out to other agent's sites...as long as you initially disclosed your broker information.  From my understanding, the reason that it is a requirement under most state's laws to post your brokerage information is so that the public knows that they are dealing with a licensed person who may have superior knowledge.

If I put my information on my original advertisement and the listing is then syndicated to other licensed real estate agent's sites, then the public with then know one way or the other that they will be dealing with a licensed agent.  This will be an interesting one to follow.

Bob Mitchell

ValueList Real Estate Services, Inc. 

Great point!  But like others have posted, as long as you have initially posted your brokerage I don't see the problem with it.  You can't be responsible for things other people do.  How could you possibly police all of these sites.  I think it would be almost impossible.

Jim Lee is right.  But, it goes farther than that.  The old excuse is that syndicating listings helps sell the property.  Somehow I can't shake the belief that real estate is still local.  Also, I'm not aware of any Internet site that is "local".  So, all IDX sites on all the hundreds of thousands of agents' web pages can be accessed by anyone with Internet access. 

So, why do do the listings get syndicated?  As Jim says, advertising.  But, it's more than that.  It's about Internet synergy and SERP.  More begets more. 

Syndication to sell listings is just the "hook". 

I'm not sure if this post was strickly for Florida professionals but here we syndicate listings through our local BOR.  We pay a fee monthly and it allows us to advertise any listings with our name and phone number on it.  This is how we display listings on our websites, blogs, etc.  I just look at it as another avenue of advertising my listings on as many websites as possible. 

Our own MLS allows agents to email listings to prospects with the listing brokerage data suppressed.  

In the end I think it is in the best interest of our listing clients to get the most possible visibility.

Correct Lenn; "More begets more" or to paraphase Bill Clinton's former campaign slogan, "It's the economy stupid.".

In this case "It's the listings stupid".

We got em (or way more than anyone else), they draw lots of eyeballs, and others want em to draw those eyeballs and up those ad views and prices.

And of course real estate is still local; that's why lots of markets are doing OK and lots of markets are not; it's dependent on what's going on locally.

I remember when IDX first started, each broker had to either opt in or opt out of allowing their listings to be distributed through the IDX. My first broker opted out for a long time. Eventually the agents pressured him into opting in. He was living in the dark ages in his thinking.

But my point is, the broker owns the listings, and he opted in. 

Hi guys. Great comments!!! I'm a little pressed for time today but I will be back tomorrow to respond more thoroughly.

As always...thanks for stopping by!!!

If I was playing Pictionary, I'd want Lenn as my partner.  Nice horse..good message too!

It's too late to close the barn door after the horse has run out already..

I think it is perfectly legal when done right. I don't think an agent should be allowed to just put another agent's listing on their site without permission. But as far as syndicating your own, I think it's legal.

Bryant, regarding Point2Agent, you must have agreed to one or more "handshakes" (which is code for "allowing someone else to display your listings as if the listings were their own").

So you have consciously given permission for this.

You also have the option to cancel any and all "handshakes" on Point2Agent.

The choice is yours to make and you can't blame your choice on their public remarks policy.

I'm not sure if this is something that has recently changed on Point2 - maybe because of this issue - but check out my screenshot, from the bottom of a Point2 listing.  Note it says in the bottom left-hand corner of Point2 Listings "Brokered and Advertised by Holly Real Estate". 

Broker Bryant, whatever the ethics or legality of advertising other agents' listings, the idea sort of annoys me. I started noticing that even on Active Rain, there were agents posting information about colleagues' listings in a way that made it look like they were the blogger's own listings. One guy, who specialized in little wee dinker houses had about five posts a week advertising mansions in his market area than he may or may not have set foot in. I lost respect and unsubscribed from his blog. It annoys me. I felt his posts were deceptive. On the other hand, I have a listing that I just want sold. And I wouldn't care if the agent who brought me an offer got the buyer by hijacking my listing on his or her web site.

Patricia... I have seen that too. What I find disconcerting is that the Blogger's who do it actually thank folks for the kudos on getting the listing. I do find that to be extremely deceptive. TLW...ROAR!

Any listing anywhere needs to have your brokerages name on it.  Its crazy Ive accidentally come across some web programming sites where they write code to repost listings.  Hard to keep everything totally compliant Im guessing.

OK I'm back! Really great comments from everyone.

Dan, I asked for proof and you gave it to me. That's pretty clear. I knew I was missing something. It looks to me like maybe they need to change the laws since the cat is already out of the bag. The problem is there are many of these sites that pick up out listings without our permission or knowledge. Also, since they are International sites they may not be bound by Florida law. This certainly seems like a very important issue that needs to be addressed by the legislature. What do we do? Thank YOU for bringing this issue up. I just wrote this post to bring attention to yours. The issue is very important and needed the extra exposure.

Renee, I wasn't bored at all. I was hoping to see some laws from different States. By the way I would have to register under a trade or fictitious name to be bale to use Broker Bryant in my advertising. You'll notice on all of my sites I use Bryant Tutas. Even my AR signature reads Bryant Tutas. TLW is retired and holds an inactive license so she is fine. She doesn't work the business at all. She joined AR as an owner of a Real Estate company but everything she does on here is member's only, so we're good. 

Several of you have pointed out the point2agent listings that look like they have been changed to reflect who's listings they are when syndicated. According to Florida law it would still need to have the brokerage phone number on it to be compliant.

After reading all of these comments I would have to say that I agree with Dan on the illegal aspect of the displays. At least for Florida. I'm not sure I agree about the unethical aspect of it though.

As I mentioned above in my comment to Dan, I think the laws need to be changed. There is no way they could enforce these Florida laws at this point. Fact is our listings are out there whether we want them to be or not.

I also agree with Lee and Lenn that the only reason these sites want our listings is to drive traffic and therefore be able to charge for advertising. 

So I guess we have to decide if the risk is worth the reward. Personally I believe it is. I get many more buyer contacts for my listings since I started syndicating them  2 years ago. 

I also believe that the consumer is smart enough to know these are REALTOR(R) listings. It is not blind or deceptive advertising in any way. And that's the most important thing.

Excellent conversation!!!! THANK YOU!!! 

I also use the Point2agent system, and have been asked this question.  The answer always comes back to the fact that I do not put those other listings on my site.  I allow other agents to put their advertising on my site.  (Thus the "Brokered and Advertised by BRAND X REALTY" notice at the bottom of the page.)  I am not "pulling" the information there, as an IDX reader might, the agents (and thereby their brokers) are "pushing" their information to my site.  They have complete control of the information that appears there, I have none (other than my ability to cancel or suspend a handshake agreement -- which I will do if I see something that seems like a Fair Housing, RESPA, or Sherman Anti-Trust violation, because as the "owner" of the website, I could be seen as "fostering" those sorts of violations if I let them remain there.) 

I also agree with Jeff Geoghan's observation that agents have the option to omit the broker contact information when printing an MLS information sheet.  This seems to me to be a potentially bigger can of worms than the point2agent site, since the point2 system won't allow the advertising broker name to be suppressed.

Rich, Great comment. So it's a push vs pull thingie? Wonder of that will hold up if I ever have to stand in front of the real estate commission and explain myself? Like they will ever have the time to deal with this issue.