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ZILLOW'S HUBRIS IS BECOMMING PALPABLE. COME ON ZILLOW, COME BACK TO EARTH.

WHAT??? AGENTS may violate their duty of fiduciary to their seller clients if they don't submit their property listings to display on Zillow???

SEE: Violation Of Fiduciary Responsibility To The Seller? by Sara Bonert / Zillow, 05/16/2008. The post is MEMBERS ONLY, so I've removed the link.

Zillow states: * * *"This attitude got me thinking this week- If you turn your digital back to this the huge amount of Buyers who are actively using the Internet to search, are you putting yourself at risk for the Seller to come back and say you skirted your fiduciary duty to expose their home to the widest audience possible? Especially given the fact that is it is free to market your listings on most of the top trafficked sites?" * * *

I'm laughing out loud at the possible result of some folks seeing listings in Zillow.

Seller to Agent: Hey, you listed my house for $749,900. Zillow says it's only worth $630,000. Is that why it isn't selling. I can't sell now. I owe over $700,000. Cancel my listing. I'm getting another agent.

Buyer to Agent: Hey, you said this house is in my price range. It's listed for $599,900, but Zillow says it's only worth $520,000. I'm not offering $575,000. You don't know what you're doing. Cancel our agreement. I'm getting another agent.

Broker to Agent: You must enter all of your listings in Zillow. Zillow says we are shirking our duty of fiduciary if we don't enter listings on their web site.

Seller to Agent: Why did you enter my house in Zillow? My house is listed for $950,000, but Zillow says it's only worth $785,000. How can I get the price you recommended when Zillow says I'm overpriced?

THE PROBLEM WITH LISTING ON ZILLOW is that the consumer, buyer or seller, not only gets the real estate agent or broker's best advice after actually seeing the house, about the market and market value, they also get the Zillow advice. Considering the "range" of Zillow estimates available, can only lead to confusion and a lack of confidence in the agent's ability to accurately value real estate.

In fact, it could even be said that entering a property listing is Zillow could violate the listing agent's duty of fiduciary to their Seller client by giving a false impression that the real property value is higher or lower than the agent recommended.

I suspect that the next thing we'll hear from Zillow is that homes should be priced based on the Zillow estimate. We'll all need help. Experienced agents know that they cannot provide an estimate of market value for a property unless they have seen it.

Trying to guilt or frighten agents into entering their property listings in Zillow is not a good idea. We take our duty of fiduciary very seriously.

YOU CAN'T BE RIGHT, ZILLOW SAYS. . . . I'm not aware of any other site that goes as deeply into pricing of properties. I speak with consumers regularly who cite Zillow as one of the sources of their information. I believe the Zillow system of estimates has fatal flaws that lead to a wide variety of estimates for most properties. The consumer, unfortunately, sees the slick web site and sees some type of authority. Zillow estimates are like an 800 Gorilla that I have to get around in order to communicate with a consumer.

Agents are free to enter their listings on any on line resource they wish. Agents can feed free content to Zillow. But, agents should not feel guilty or feel that they have violated their duty of fiduciary to their seller clients if they eschew Zillow.

RENEE BURROWS has a good follow up to her comment below.

Posted by Lenn Harley, Broker, Maryland and Virginia on 05/16/2008 09:59 AM

Comments (111)

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111 Comments on ZILLOW'S HUBRIS IS BECOMMING PALPABLE. COME ON ZILLOW, COME BACK TO EARTH.

MAY

2008

I am finding that buyer/sellers have a lot of access to information on the Internet -- which they take as TRUE! The consumers think they know a lot more than they know - it is a very dangerous perception and it is difficult to convince the consumers otherwise. I think this is a disturbing trend of "misinformation."

With to day's youthful buyers sites like Zillow are the bible for them. The problem is that here in Atlanta... if we write up an offer for a home priced at 185K Zillows price recommends a price of 150K. The buyers then want to balk. Here is what I see...Zillow does not differentiate between house styles, number of garages and adjacent neighborhoods without an HOA or swim tennis. Nice try Zillow but you cannot pull off the value pricing things yet.

Lenn- I agree that it may just be a violation of your fiduciary duty to put your listings on Zillow because their estimation model is so flawed. They should be ones that are culpable. Thank goodness people in our area, our clientele rarely goes there. In fact, here in the deep south, most people still have dial up:) and still use people (agents) to market and price their homes. They only like to see their homes on the internet but that is about all they really care about.

Joan. Thanks. I agree. I'm all for the Internet Empowered consumer. I rely on them. But, many consumers don't know when they are reading innacurate information.

Jim. My point exactly. I have yet to hear a word from a consumer about information they got from Zillow that was accurate.

In fact, I had one buyer who made a 70% offer on a new home because the foreclosure in the community was priced at that level. Zillow is an obsticle for me.

Katerina. In time, folks in the South will get in line with the on line folks and fall for sites like Zillow just a other consumers do.

Shucks, why take training to value properties, just go to Zillow. What good is experience. Sell 500 homes or go to Zillow?

Actually, it wasn't the Zillow platform I was writing about but the attempt to guilt agents into sending free content to them.

Lenn,

The 'bottom line ' problem here is this: Neither Zillow and the algorithms they use to determine property value, nor a licensed appraiser who determines property value using accepted practice, are the ultimate 'authority'...the buyer who offers to buy at 'his fair market' price ultimately is the one who determines the value of a property!!! JMHO, Thanks, Fran

Zillow obtains their information from our county records. In many cases our county records are inaccurate! County records states that my home has 3 bedrooms and 1 bath, with permits we built an additional 3 bedrooms 1 bath and for some reason was not recorded with the county. Therefore Zillow's comp on my home is completely skewed! It could be a liability to place our listings on Zillow!

Hubris is a great term for what's going on at Zillow.

The guilt trip Zillow is attempting is pretty outrageous, but not all that surprising. They're riding high in the minds of some consumers now, so it makes sense they'd grab for the gusto. Wouldn't it be fascinating to see Zillow's claim about "violating fiduciary duties" go through the Court system?

Zillow is just trying to drive more market share to their site. They state that you "may" be skirting your fiduciary duty. If this is the case, then I am skirting my fiduciary responsibility for every website out there that post's homes for sale.

Lenn I missed that one but it makes me laugh. You would think they would clean up their act 1st before ever making a statement like that. My listings are placed their but I hold no stock what so ever in their "zestimate". As agents we are always educating outr clients that a computer can not replace the accuracy of a human bieng who is visting a home and has intimate knowledge of the details.

Lenn, I have developed an assumption on our good friends at Zillow. Isn't Zillow's founder the same guy that put all travel agents out of business (Expedia I think)? So why should we assume anything different from Zillow now?

Lenn, I agree with all of the points you make and love your examples. As another comment mentioned, market value is determined by buyers not an internet site. Until internet "estimates" are done after a visit, walk through and thorough evaluation of a home and its unique features, flaws and assets, there will always be a flaw in the online "estimates" - just my opinion.

Lenn- Living in the shadow of this 800 lb gorilla makes for many interesting conversations with prospective buyers. Many look there and then make comments about the "value" of the home they want to sell or buy. It's funny we can make numbers say anything we like! One time a buyer said I will not give x this house on Zillow is worth y. I asked them if they would be willing to sell their home for what Zillow said it was worth. They said of course not Zillow is wrong.... go figure =)

Mana- Yes the founder is the same guy who founded Expedia.

Best,

Scott

I've got to play with Zillow a little because I'm afraid I'm been ignoring her and you've stirred up my interest on what I'm missing.

Len, the money behind the big Z has each of their employees searching the net for bad press and going after it. By the way, I looked at your website. As a listing broker myself, I find that when I have my own listings on my site, I build a better business locally. In effect, your site is a zi llow without the estimators. You might try addin a way to see your own listings.

Joan, trusting the information on the net is an issue. However, I am a little disappointed that your website uses mis-information and fear tactics. In an industry where we are working hard to develop trust, I find that sites like your's are the antethesis of truth, relying instead on spreading fear and dis-trust.

Jim I'll be linking to your site (with your wife) from REindex in the towns where you have listings later today. (Alpharetta, Dallas, Marietta, Roswell, GA)
Nestor and Katerina, the link in your profile didn't work. I found it by adding www. to it. I'll be linking to your site from REindex in the towns where you have listings later today. (Farmington Estates, Olympia, Versailles, Wellington, FL)
Eric, I already had your site but will update the links.
Steve, you'll be in Groveland, Kissimmee, Orlando, Winter Park, FL.
Bill your company is already on REindex, too.
Mana, you don't have your own listings displayed, but when you do, send me a note and I''l link to you.
Same with your site, Diane.
Same for you too, Scott. You can use the point2 system to add a "My Listings" button which will show just your listing. Send me a note then.

And for anyone wanting a Zi llow type estimator code for their own site, here is a free one with directions: REindex.com/VECode.html (VE stands for Value Estimator)

Let's see, I have a fiduciary duty to my clients. I am bound by NV real estate laws and I belong to our local board of Realtors. No where in the COE or laws does it say I have a fiduciary duty to post anything to Zillow. :going through my paperwork: Nope, don't have a contract with Zillow. They aren't my clients, I owe them nothing.

Could go on my tangents about the zestimates. Buyers will use them to their advantage, sellers will use them to their advantage. There is nothing like the human eye who knows an area that can evaluate a good list price or a value. Subtract for this, add for that. Zillow cannot do that. The masses need to know that!

Fran. Of course. However, when you have a home listed at $500,000 and the Zillow estimate is $425,000, how "informed" is the buyer when negotiating the price.

Jean. Absolutely. County records also include transfers with no price, i.e., divorce, trusts, etc. It's fatally flawed.

Eric. Thanks. It wasn't the estimates that got me, although they do cause a lot of trouble. It was the reference to fiduciary.

Steve. I believe that Zillow would be better to keep their nose our of our duty of fiduciary as a way to get free content.

Bill. I was laughing out loud and enraged at the same time.

Camarillo. Indeed. We often forget that. How's that working out for the travel industry??

Diane. Thanks. There will always be a flaw in the on line "estimates" is the word for the day.

Lenn-perfect timing on your post. I was recently called to task by a former client. Zillow had retained information from when his home was listed that they no longer wanted posted. Try as I might I was not able to change the information and they were not happy. We all need to be careful when we add information to Zillow. If they retain it past our "connection" to the property then we may have some liablity with our clients as well.

Lenn,

Excelent post! I would think Zillow would be more interested in providing good service and accurate information than in employing a sort of bully tactic like that. If they would get their act together on their awful zestimates, they might become a serious player where we real estate professionals would flock to. Hmmmm. They remind me of the guy in Iraq who said, "We own the airport. The Americans were defeated soundly," when in reality his army had gotten their butts kicked and everyone knew it!

Lenn- I had a client who lost out a great deal, last year, in part because of Zillow. We put in an offer on a house priced below appraisal value. Another offer came in within hours (remember the days of bidding wars.) The seller asked for our highest and best. My buyer immediately went to Zillow.

"Why is the price and the town appraisal so far off", he asked. Zillow says it's worth $200,000 less.

"Zillow is often wrong", I explained. "You've seen enough houses in this market, to appreciate what a good price, this is."

"I don't think they can be that far off. I'm withdrawing my offer."

Lenn, as always this is very important information. I do run across the "but Zillow said" fairly often which sends me off to do a real CMA just to set them straight. NEVER thought of the client comparing listings with the Zestimate...can't be good most of the time!

How ironic. My new listing just came in and wondered about the disparity between our listing price and taht of Zillow. Zillow also shows less s.f. and number of beds,baths !

Lenn - Simply put, this is a terrific analysis. I have also been a little scared by the amount of credibility that AR has given to Zillow over the past few months. I do NOT view it as part of my fiduciary to place my listings on Zillow, because I think they are part of the problem, not part of the solution. When consumers visit Zillow and see "Zestimates" that are ridiculously far off (either high or low), it makes it look like we are not doing our jobs correctly. As you indicated, the slick site connotes authority where I don't feel it exists.

Lenn,

That's the buyers agent's job...to inform their client!!! Thanks, Fran

I have seen zillow not count over 800 sq ft of a home, I guess they thought it was an unfinished basement, not the case at all they were only $200,00 off the mark

Guilt is a powerful motivator. I don't know how Zillow can be the expert when there are so many inaccuracies there. It takes a professional with experience in the local area to correctly interpret the data.

I have to weigh in here. What REALTORS in the US need is what we Canadian REALTORS have enjoyed for years - a national association owned, nation wide public web site with advertisements of all, yes I said all, active MLS listings. Check out www.mls.ca and notice that there are no outside ads. That's how we chose to fullfill our fiduciary duty to advertise our seller client's properties. Works for 90,000 Canadian REALTORS.

Zillow does not include Canada. No value proposition for their business model here in Canada.

Bill. Don't you just love irony.

Diane. BINGO!!

Marilyn. Typical. That doesn't surprise me at all. Zillow is a slick web site. They must be right.

Bob. That is so funny. I believe that all of us remember Bagdad Bob with some fondness. He was so audacious in his claims, he was simply comic relief. Kind of like . . . . .

Cindy. Thanks. I have read many accounts where the listing agents can't get errors corrected or old listing out.

LENN - I can't believe the post that you linked to. It makes no sense whatsoever. By that rationale, every agent is the exact same since we all must offer the exact marketing plan or risk shirking our fiduciary duty. It sounds like a cry for help rather than a logical reason to use Zillow. You have given plenty of reason not to use them. While I don't have a problem with the Zillow concept, the execution is laughable. I've watched my "zestimate" move up and down like a volatile stock. Uh, excuse me, Zillow, since when did the housing market become like the stock market? Home prices do not rise and fall overnight.

What's next? Are the newspapers going to set up profiles on AR and proclaim that we are not meeting our fiduciary duty if we don't spend money doing newspaper ads? If Zillow wants to look legitimate, they should spend time fixing their algorithms, and less time posting about how we all NEED to use their service.

Michael. That's about par. Even a BPO does a drive-by.

Jason. You are correct about Zillow. They look good but it's all fluff. As far as AR guys giving credence to Zillow, I can't recall that they have done that. In fact, I believe that AR is helping by giving exposure to as many real estate related venues as possible.

ActiveRain gives us a forum to "call" Zillow when they go over the line, which I believe that they did today. Who knows what they're telling agents in person. If they're on ActiveRain, they're going to be hears. Commercial speech is protected and thank goodness for that.

Wayne. You're right on target. Zillow is in no position to advise anyone about anything. The most valuable thing we as agents are likely to get from Zillow is a backlink and I don't even know if we get that.

Adam. First off, let me say that the Zillow model is not accurate, has never been accurate, will never be accurate. The premise that homes can be accurately valued by tax records, active listing, etc. or by any method other than licensed appraisers or experienced real estate persons who have seen the property, is ludicrous.

Zillow would do well to stay away from fiduciary.

Heath. Your comments on various web site is, I'm sure appreciated. If I had listings, I'm sure I would have a way to link to them.

Renee. That "fiduciary" thing was a stretch, to say the least.

Barbara. Take a ride on Zillow. If, and it's a big "if", you live in an area where assessments are about 100%, new assessments are made once a year, everyone pulled a permit for every remodel (that's a big HA!), interior upgrades are reflected in the assessment, etc., etc., you'll find Zillow to be O.K. In my area, it's a crap shoot.

Lenn - I think that some of the recent featured posts by Zillow staff which are essentially glorified ads for their website would constitute credence from the AR guys. I won't link to the specific post because I don't want to be accused of "calling someone out" publicly.

I agree wholeheartedly that commercial speech should remain a protected privilege here, but I haven't written any ads about my company that got featured on ActiveRain, have you?

Lenn,

"I speak with consumers regularly who cite Zillow as one of the sources of their information."

I think we all do.

If I put that crap on the Internet, I wouldn't have my license long.

I have a vested interest in accuracy and integrity, assuming that sales and profit will follow.

It seems that Zillow has the idea that if they can make money, they can buy accuracy and integrity.

If they decide those things are important...

Lenn: the thing that sticks in my head is who is holding Zillow accountable? They obviously have an impact on market perception and buyers and sellers are acting on information that seems to not be thorough. complete or accurate... Hmmm... This could create some interesting legal activity at some point. And no I don't feel it is in any way a lapse of my fiduciary duty if I don't put my listings there. My $0.02, Steve

Lenn, I'm on the sidelines here...

Lenn, I was laughing so hard when I read this that my laptop almost fell off the table. Zillow is just another company trying to make a buck. Zillow does a superb job marketing, but if you believe them to be the last word, you really aren't running your business, Zillow is. AJ

Jason. I too have cringed when I saw the Zillow ads featured. We have a finite number of features and I don't believe that they should go to blatent advertisers. But, I understand the AR guys quest for synergy with other on line entities, i.e., Zillow, HouseValues, etc. I don't know what category they are in, perhaps "Real Estate Other", which includes many wonderful contributors to our technology skills and resources.

Alan. I laughed out loud too. Then it started bugging me. The arrogance of Zillow to suggest that we are failing in our fiduciary duty to our clients is just well, hubris.

Michael. Now I'm laughing even harder. I saw your name and then saw appraiser. I'm sure you would have some thoughts on the subject. Crimony, you license is on the line when you present an appraisal. My license is on the line when I do a CMA. What does Zillow risk with it's estimates????

Steve. Accountability is a heavy burden that seems to have been diminished with the Internet.

Mike. Apparently, Zillow was sold a bill of goods.

Lenn - great post! I find it interesting that Keller is now submitting all their stuff to Zillow (think that might change the math- doubt it)... real life example. House on my street sold this month in 3 days. The property sold for $27K more than Zillow thinks it's worth. Do you think my new neighbors paid too much? The prior sale on our street only took 26 hours...

Zillow is ludicrious. Their information for my community is so off it is absurd. I just checked my own home again. They list a price is is $65K less than my one month old appraisal, and the tax assessor information is three years out of date.

If anything, it would irresponsible for me to submit my listings to a site that is as inaccurate is Zillow is for my area.

Lenn,

I want to drive in a nail but all I have handy is a wrench. The preferred tool is a hammer. So my tool for the situation doesn't apply. Now I find myself upside down in my truck under water. I'd like a hammer but I find a wrench.

I'm going to use the wrench.

When the list price or CMA opinion is LESS than the Zillow estimate and I want to DRIVE THAT POINT home then I'll use the Zillow hammer. Heck, I'll use their wrench too (Zrench or Zhammer?)

If the list price or CMA opinion is egregiously HIGHER than the Zestimate and could work counter to my seller's objectives, then I'm fully prepared to drown in my vehicle.

Andrew. Thank you very much for the chuckle. I just lots a post that I was working on when I hit the back button for some dumb reason. Oh, well.

Brenda. I agree. This one is a no-brainer for any responsible agent who can do a CMA.

Eleanor. Wait until folks start suing their agent because Zillow tells them that the home they just bought is worth less. No, wait. They'll sue the agent.

Lenn - I agree that there are significant flaws to Zillow... It is the preference of the agent as to how and where they market the property. I'm waiting for Homes & Land Magazine to tell me that I'm not looking out for a seller's best interest by not advertising with them. I use Zillow to market listings, but they need to get a grip on this one.

Zillow doesn't understand that they cannot be relevent until they are accurate. Either that or they simply don't care. We had an incident last year where Zillow was aware of hundreds of inaccurate listings and refused to remove them. Spencer said they would remove them, but for some reason it took several months. It takes a lot of nerve to conflate that business model with your fiduciary duty.

I'm going to go the Zillow site right now and see what's up with it, I haven't visited their site before but I have heard of it. With what I've read here I might not want to show listings there.

Thanks Lenn for pointing this out.

While I have listed a few of my listings on Zillow (at clients request)...that has not happened in a while. Unfortuantely zillow.com does rely on information that is definitely incorrect. For agents or their clientele to actually rely on zillow for an estimation of value would be like citing wikipedia as a source in your thesis.

These websites are only as good as their input information will allow. Garbage in - garbage out. It is a shame that they try to "bully" agents into submitting listings. Hopefully clients listen and trust their agents judgement when it comes to marketing, but who knows these days?

Great post Lenn! Thanks~

Liz

We have a listing that Zillow would probably never get right. It is an older cottage home with a guest house. It needs some TLC, but it has a 180° unobstructable view of the Olympic Mountains. It is tough to put a price on a view and I'm sure Zillow has its logirhythms that work out value. But you can't beat the professional real estate agent when it comes to knowing the market. Zillow should be viewed and used like you would an encyclopedia, a starting point.

Liz. Thanks. I'm familiar with the Wikipedia. I had an agent call me last week with wikipedia as the source of some data. I had to give him the news that is isn't a source. He was shocked. I do find Wikipedia helpful for demographics quick searches, but I have another demographic program that I use.

Doris. As I said above. My disagreement with Zillow is not necessarily their estimates. I have to work a bit harder to overcome some of the more out of line ones. But, my objection was the post that said we may be violating our duty of fiduciary if we don't enter our listings in Zillow.

Frank. By George, you got it.

Debbie. I understand their business model. It was the fiduciary matter that got me.

McHugh Realtors. I suspect that Mr. Funk and Mr. Wagner would take exception to your comparison.

Hi Lenn - over and over and over you prove to be our real estate hero!!!

I saw some comments like that attributed to Zillow and nearly spit my Diet Coke out. I thought it was rather ego-centrical for the person, or people who wrote it to actually have said that. How dare they imply that any of us who don't put our listings on Zillow are not living up to our duties to our clients! With the load of inaccurate info out there, in my humble opinion, why should we put our listings somewhere that's full of bad info?

Their kind of rationale is intended solely to intimidate and scare agents into falling right into their trap. Not me....

Ann

Interesting that no one at zillow has shown up to defend their position. We have several ar members that are zillow employees.
My fiduciary obligation to my client is to list the home and sell for the best price I can get. that may or MAY NOT include using zillow. If their zestimate is waaaaaay off the mark, it could be construed that I am violating my fiduciary duty by allowed an misinformed "zestimate" to influence potential buyers. Hubris is an UNDERSTATEMENT! Delusional might be closer to the mark.

Ruthmarie, you're right. The silence is deafening. Maybe the people at Zillow forgot to check Twitter. ;)

Ruthmarie. I sort of take umbridge when folks who are not "in the trenches", putting their license on the line try to tell us about fiduciary.

Ann. Thanks. Me too. If that is a tactic that they're using to pursuade agents to put listings on their site, they might be surprised.

Frank. What could they say??? Shucks, they're probably on the phone calling agents and brokers advising that they are failing in their fiduciary duty if they don't put their listings on Zillow.

I just got a call from a salesperson who introduced himself as XXXX with XXX /Google. Now that young man probably thought I'd be impressed. I asked him what his connection with Google is. He stammared and said they have a listing partnership with Google.

When we got to the question of what he does, he's an advertising company that sells clicks for AdWords. I don't need AdWords. I'm all over Google. They think we're all so stupid.

Zillow estimates scare the living crap out of me too, They should really put a broad range on the Zestimate. There are some places that the Zestimate is spot on and others that are WAYYY OFF its scary, but I can't blame Zillow they are trying to make their marketing dollars and are creating a sense of "Need" to us the "Contributors" I do agree it is kind of funny.

Justin. They can't create a sense of "need" in agents by trying to create fear.

Totally agree. I feel like I need to actually put a disclaimer on my site that negates Zillow's info. Grrrrr!!!!

Lenn, I have to say Zillow has created a monster. Good for them not too good for us. I was reading an article in Money Mag today. It was briefly talking about how sellers won't need REALTORS(R) in the future because of all the online tools available and blah blah blah..Then is stated (paraphrased) that SOON Sellers will be able to get a more accurate evaluation of pricing from Zillow because the big Z is a more objective valuation method than that used by REALTORS(R) who may just be "bidding a high price" to buy the listing. And you know....in a few years when Zillow has more data to use for their valuations this may be true. They are actually already very close in my neck of the woods.

Zillow IS a monster. But while we are spending so much time on Zillow let's not forget about the largest property info site on the Internet.....Cyberhomes from Fidelity National Title. The folks at Cyberhomes could very well be in a position to make a move that would shake our Industry to it's core.

How do you stop a speeding train? It's one of the reasons we don't necessarily deal with Zillow either. We have had issues with buyers claiming outside knowledge of prices for homes we spent long hours researching comps for, taking into consideration market conditions, only to refute the price we name. It's called business I suppose. I'd be careful before speaking IT'S name!

Alan, if NAR invested your money educating the public about the importance of accurate listing information rather than trumping a code of ethics with questionable enforcement, you might not get so many questions about Zillow. Zillow's data is "for entertainment purposes only", but the real estate industry has done a pathetic job of warning the public about relying on unreliable data.

I've seen Plan 9 from Washington to rebuild the cachet of "hiring a REALTOR" now that the listings horse has left the barn. Given recent tech initiatives, I'm doubtful that NAR can create something of value, teach members how to use it, and educate the public on why it matters.

Each and every one of us Realtors should stop feeding the beast that wants to destroy us. We need to stop feeding listings to Zillow, Trulia, and any other site except Realtor.com before it's too late. The people who started Zillow put travel agents out of business and they will eventually put us out of business.

Steve. None of these aggregators are our friends. No question about that. Fighting for Google SERP gets harder and harder every day.

June. That's funny. Great idea.

Bryant. You have a good handle on it. I suspect that the only reason their estimates are closer in your area is because the spread of prices in a community are not so wide. In my area, they are like throwing darts at the wall. I'm waiting for Cyberhomes.

Alan. There was a time when I referred to it as "Z". But, shucks, that horse has left the barn.

Frank. It would be very interesting to see how the NAR would approach Buyer's Agency. We've been the step child of the NAR forever.

Bryant and Lenn - Cyberhomes, hmmm.........

Ann

Nice, Lenn.

I have a client who thinks their house is worth the $260,00 zestimate, but the appraisal is coming in just over $200,000. That changes EVERYTHING.

Lenn - Unless I missed something while meandering through this thread, no representatives over at Zillow have entered into this conversation. There has been much written from various sides of Zillow's role in Real Estate. I've liked seeing folks working for Zillow give their 2 pennies, always made for a well balanced conversation. Hope to see somebody chime in....

I always thought of the Zillow Estimate has a fun little 'techie thing' and never gave it much credence or accuracy beyond that. After all, Zillow is National & Real Estate is local.

I won't even leave a comment on that post and give them any juice. My fiduciary to my seller is violated if I don't post to Zillow? Give me a break from the nonsense! I had a seller call me in a panic as she had pulled her house on Zillow which said it was worth $425,000 and we had just gone on the market at $584,900 and they couldn't sell at Zillow's valuation. Told them not to worry. Sold 63 days later at $580,000. Go figure.

Had two clients call me in a tizzy last year after running Zestimates. Seems Zillow had them each valued over 50k less than I did. I chuckled, told them not to fear, and got both properties sold at the considerably higher figures. These were sellers who were concerned that buyers would run the same "evaluations" and use it against them. Funny, not sure how listing these properties on the same site that offered a bogus estimate of value, and in turn providing the other party with negotiating ammo, would have been upholding my fiduciary responsiblity. Bottom line, I love the sheer gall of some non-local license holding techie attempting to explain to me my fiduciary obligation to my clients here in Scottsdale, Arizona ... from the Pacific Northwest. Get a freaking grip, Zillow. I've always cast a wary eye their direction. Such nonsense as this latest post you reference takes it a step past the annoyance I have long held to the cavalier national number crunching masquerading as proper property evaluation.

I look at the Zestimate before I list the home. If it's close, I'll put it on. If there is no zestimate, even better!

Zillow is know to be wrong and from what I see and read, most of the time

MAY

2008

Ummm just curious as to why no response from Zillow???? Hmmmm. They are usually all over topics that so much as mention their name. Perhaps there is no valid argument and discretion is the better part of valor???

Joey. That is what we face daily with those dang Zillow estimates. Not only do I have to tell buyers who "find" Zillow that the house they want to buy for $1,100,000 is priced well but recommend a 90% offer. I also have to fight the $750,000 Zillow estimate in the neighborhood. I dumped those buyers because I got weary of justifying my market valuations, which is based on 25 years real estate experience. When a person is dealing with property values, the Zillow estimates are just so much noise. The consumer does not understand.

Jason. I don't believe that the Zillow rep here spends much time getting involved in ActiveRain. Probably a good thing. However, Zillow recognizes the free advertising value of ActiveRain and they direct their posts to agents. She does post to her own blog, but rarely responds to comments. That may change. I just noticed that the offending post suggesting that we may violate our fiduciary duty to buyers by not posting listings on Zillow is now featured. That should get a little juice.

Carmon. You are smarter than the average bear.

Imagine my surprise this morning when first reading here on AR and seeing a featured post by the Zillow gal which amounted to nothing more than an ad in my humble opinion.

Violating my fidicuary responsibility? Hogwash. (I had something stronger in mind to say, but bull excrement just wasn't an appetizing word so early in the morning.)

Loved loved loved your post Lenn. Rightfully featured.

Lenn I agree with what you are saying here about zillow. I read that post on AR about violating my fidicuary responsibility and couldnt believe it?! Zillow is making big bucks off of our free MLS data. But a lot of consumers are using them even if their price estimates are not correct or trustworthy. Its like what consumers read in the newspaper- its must be true its on Zillow?! When I get a chance I'll have to read the rest of your comments on this post! thanks

Cape Cod Realtor

Lenn, have you looked at Zillow's Terms of Use? Here is a passage regarding submissions, i.e. listings posted to Zillow.

For materials you post or otherwise provide to Zillow or in connection with the Services (your "Submission"), you grant Zillow an irrevocable, perpetual, worldwide license to (1) use, copy, distribute, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, reproduce, edit, modify, and translate your Submission, in connection with the Services or in any other media, and (2) sublicense these rights, to the maximum extent permitted by applicable law.

Irrevocable suggests that once you submit the listing, you or your client can't change your mind and ask to have it removed. Edit and Modify suggest that the listing can be changed without the consent of you or your client. Sublicense suggests that Zillow is free to sell the listing to other publishers without the consent or knowledge of you or your client.

It seems to me that once you submit your listing to Zillow, you are no longer in control of the listing. You can't remove it, it may have been changed without your knowledge and consent, and it may have been sold to services which you had specifically chosen not to post it to as well as to services which you aren't even aware of.

Does surrendering control of how the listing is marketed violate your fiduciary duty to your clients?

I read your post and Sara's. It wasn't even a fair fight. I don't have an issue with Zillow, except that they need to disclose that their Zestimates are wildly innaccurate. And it needs to be done where a consumer will see it.

Lane. It's not a fight. Just an opinion. I'm not sure the consumer would understand if they disclosed how they get the estimates.

Frank. I've thought for a long time that REALTORS were sold a bill of goods about the aggregators. Once a listing is on an IDX site, the key to having it found is Search Engine SEO. In my mind, the market should have worked and let the more innovative and hard working agents succeed on the Internet. The NAR gave the store away to HomeStore, Move and it was all over.

Why, when home buyers can find every home for sale in the area in which they wish to buy a home, does a listing have to be on national web sites?? Relocating buyer in Califonia find homes in MD and VA on my web sites every day. Real estate is local but any web site is International. Once the aggregators got the listings, they are making millions from of the hard work of agents who list the properties. I don't buy the exposure argument either. It makes sense, but it isn't necessary. The aggregators say, I'll give your listing exposure, when what they should be saying is, I'll use your listing to get traffic and sell ad space.

Stephen. You're right. They are using the content generated off the backs of listing agents. Oh well, that horse is out of the barn.

Kris. I saw the feature for the Zillow post. I had to laugh. I believe that it was done by someone with a little mischief in his heart. I could be wrong. It was the timing. Zillow's post wasn't getting any traffic.

MAY

2008

Lenn

It seems that many are also taking offense to Zillow's insistence that their Zestimates are accurate as they continue to "improve their alogrithm"

At HomeGain we realize that estimating home prices based on computer generated data is akin to alchemy. We created the first instant homevaluation tool back in 2000 and are not engaged in trying to convince consumers or realtors that its very accurate or to be relied upon

Unlike Zillow, our homevaluation tool does not give an exact valuation. We chose instead to give a range as we believe that there are many factors that go into what a home will actually sell for including one of the most important-the skill of the realtor that is hired to help sell the house.

An instant tool can't factor in the skill of a professional realtor, whom we believe is an essential part of the valuation and any real estate transaction.

You can try our tool at homegain.com Many say its accurate, many say it isn't, many say its better than Zillow, many say it isn't. We say who cares, if you are selling your home contact a realtor.

First of all, Zillow DOES NOT think you have a duty to post your listing to the website. Period. I am sincerely and truly sorry that people read that post and got that message. I have updated my post to try to make this more clear and commented on it multiple times.

"Experienced agents know that they cannot provide an estimate of market value for a property unless they have seen it". Zillow believes the same thing.

We try to be very transparent about our accuracy by posting a link to our accuracy table right on the home page in the search box and at the bottom of of the page. (http://www.zillow.com/howto/DataCoverageZestimateAccuracy.htm) We also include a link to what the zestimate represents next to the number every time it is presented.

@Carmillo- Yes, the founder of Zillow was the founder of Expedia. I don't think you can compare the two at all. Expedia is a transactional site, Zillow has no intention of getting involved in the transaction. It is a media site.

@CindyJones- You are right that you cannot edit something that another agent has posted. However, the homeowner could have. They just needed to log on and claim their home and could have removed any marketing text or photos the previous agent has entered.

@SteveHomer- Who is holding Zillow accountable? The users. The general public who uses the site and refers the site to their friends. The real estate industry- Every one of our agreements with real estate companies is at-will, meaning if we did something that they didn't like, they could pull all of their listings immediately.

@FrankJewitt- If you ever see a problem with inaccurate listing data on the site, please email me directly and I will look into rectifying it.

@JasonS and Ruthmarie- Sorry to be so late to the game on this post. I didn't see this post until I was directed to it on a Saturday night and I had plan which prevented me from responding until this morning. And Lenn, sorry that you don't think I am that active here or don't respond to comments. I spend at least 30 minutes on the site every day and respond to things the best I can. Plus, I have responded to every single email that has ever been to me through my profile.

@Lane- If you have a better idea as to how we can make this more obvious, please email it to me and I will pass it on.

@Stephen/Lenn- Zillow was started in Feb 06 and it wasn't until well over a year later was there even one listing on the site. At that time we were getting about 4 million people to the site, now with listings and another year under our belt we are at about 5 million. So to say that Zillow built a business off the back of your listing data is not true. Of course, it enhances the site today and we appreciate the listing partners we have, and that is what we consider them, partners. But there is a lot of unique content on the site, by way of community, that is driving traffic to the site as well.

Finally, @Lenn- I am very aware is to how you feel about Zillow based on this and many of your previous posts. I am not commenting here to try to change your mind, I know better than to even try that. I only wanted to comment on things that I felt were inaccurate or needed clarification or additional information.

Louis. Thanks for dropping by. I don't beleive that any of these systems is going to be accurate. It's impossible. These things are to get consumer traffic. We know that. If we don't we should.

Actually, the HouseValues model has more integrity. You enter the info on your house and an agent calls you in a nano-second to make an appointment to see your home. Now, granted the consumer may not expect a call from an agent, but, fact is, that's the only way the home owners is going to get an accurate valuation.

I don't use HouseValues or any of the systems. But, I know that the Zillow model is the most troublesome. All of the systems, including HomeGain has a mission of using agents or agents listings as a profit generator, directly or through advertising. You guys are all competition for me. But, that's business and I work hard to get my share of the Internet business.

Actually, it was Zillow trying to lay a guilt trip on agents for failure to provide fiduciary that got my attention. Shucks. In fact, many of us are in statutory agency states. That was hubris.

Hi Lenn

One thing that I constantly hear about homegain is we use agents listings to draw traffic to our site so we can sell ads.

This is not true

HomeGain displays no realtor listings on our site.

A large part of our marketing budget goes towards sending visitors TO realtor sites where THEY display the listings. This is our buyerlink product. We sell this on a cost per vistor basis often at prices lower than you can get on Google or Yahoo.

Our listings traffic goes directly to the Realtor sites.

Where ever we have Realtor customers there are NO third party advertisers-Realtors are featured prominently and exclusively on our web site.

We are not beholden to third party advertisers, we do not take listings and try to sell them back to you (while selling mortgage or competitors ads around those listings)

HomeGain is more of a co-op marketing system for agents to get exposure.

We aggregate traffic partners and manage millions of key words on google and Yahoo to acquire the traffic for the sole benefit of realtors, not third party advertisers.

As to our home valuation tool, we encourage consumers to contact a realtor after they get an instant homevaluation.

Sara. Thanks for stopping by. I still believe that your model is fatally flawed. Unfortunately, the consumer doesn't understand the dynamics of real estate valuation. Appraisers attend hundreds of hours of instruction and training to be licensed. In MD, an appraiser must complete 150 hours of classroom instruction, 2000 hours, yes 2000 hours of supervised appraisals over 2 years just to take the test. They work very hard, carry a tremendous amount of responsibility and make about $400 for each appraisal. I've valued over 2000 properties over the years and I've taken every course available to learn the skills.

Yet, the work product of appraisers and my work is constantly questioned by consumers who go to a web site designed to sell advertising and believe that the valuations produced are gospel. If that isn't enough, our professionalism is questioned and our understanding of fiduciary if we don't submit our listings to a web site that is perpetually innacurate. Many agents and brokers have fallen into the trap of believing that any Internet exposure is good. I don't believe that is true.

It's enough to make an old dag bark.

Who you callin' an old dag? :)

Lenn: This is ridiculous. Zillow is a joke! I just typed in two properties that I recently sold. One that garnered multiple offers. As we all know, a home is only worth what a buyer is willing to pay. Zillow was high on one by 5%, and low on the other by 8%. There is no way that listing a home on Zillow benefits anyone but Zillow.

Louis. Thanks for the debate.

You wrote: "HomeGain displays no realtor listings on our site."

Louis, Louis. Please tell me I didn't see what I saw. There is a clear "search for homes" feature on your main page. I searched for homes for sale in my own neighborhood and found over 100, I didn't count, but every active listings is there.

I may not be understanding what you said. Maybe you didn't mean what you said, but there are Realtor listings for every community in my area on your site. I'm sure there is some confusion that can be explained by simply semantics.

I suspect that this is from your affiliation with Weichert or Zip Realty, et al. But, it appears to me that HomeGain does, indeed display Realtor listings. In fact, in the case of Zip Realty, they may be displaying listings of agents who may not even be Realtors. Ouch.

Lenn

[listings deleted because they take up too much room.]

Lenn, I think what he's saying is that they don't sell ad space on the same page as listings. This seems to be a sore point (issue also came up at local meetings), though I'm frankly baffled by the objection since newspapers have sold agent ad space around listings for decades. What bothers me about online aggregators is that the agent and homeowner no longer control the listing information and there are no penalties for posting false information. The advertising should be a non-issue since newspapers did it while charging you to print your listings.

Lenn Lenn Lenn!

Look again. HomeGain does not display Realtor listings on our web site.

When you do a search for homes on Homegain.com we send you DIRECTLY to the Realtor's web site. We charge our agent and broker customers per visit that we send.

We have thousands of realtor customers (not just zip realty and weichert) who pay us to send traffic to THEIR web sites where THEY display the MLS listings that they have a right to display.

Frank its better than that. We don't aggregate listings on our site. We send traffic to realtors who display them

Our customer is the realtor, not a third party advertiser that we lure in with realtor listings content.

Think of it this way a agent or broker can do a google ad words campaign to drive traffic to their site, or they can pay home gain to professionally manage that traffic, which will come not just from google, but from 300 other sources, Yahoo, MSN and from Homegain.com often for less than getting it from google directly AND our customer tell us it converts better than google traffic too.

http://blog.homegain.com/category/buyerlink

Many realtors love to repeat that false mantra about homegain-they take our data and try and sell it back to us or sell ads around it. HomeGain does NOT do that, we are not a listings aggregator like most of the new "2.0" companies.

Louis, Louis, Louis Darling. . . . .

When one goes to HomeGain and searches for an agent, the first thing a consumer wants to do is look at home listings. If that were not true, non of you guys who do not sell real estate would give a fig about having listings on your site.

That neat little box on your index page clearly says:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

View Homes for Sale

View real estate listings for homes across the nation.

Existing Homes and MLS

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If that isn't using real estate listings to sell your services to agents, what is it???? You have provided the bait that is the #1 motivation for any home buyer to search on the Internet. Buyers don't search for agents. If buyers had their way, they would never have to speak with an agent.

I believe I understand the route. Buyer goes to HomeGain. Buyer searches for home for sale, that is what they do. Buyer gets an advertiser's page which included the active listings for the area selected. This looks like an IDX output. All of the leads go directly to the advertiser.

Selling the space to an advertiser who posts their IDX output is a circuitous way of using listings to attract consumers.

Don't get me wrong. I greatly admire what HomeGain did. You guys were quick to recognize the value of the Internet about the same time I did. Fortunately for you, you had the resources $$$ to launch a national site and the technical resources to make it work.

Lenn!

What we do is no different that what google does - we attract the consumer and send them directly to the agent's web site.

AND it costs us money to do so. Only a single digit percentage of our traffic comes from SEO.

I would think that is far more palatable for a company like Homegain to act as a marketing co-op for realtors whereby we aggregate 300 traffic partners and manage milllions of key word ALL for the benefit of realtors.

If you pay us for clicks to your web site, we give you that, we don't have competing ads. You pay for your visitor exclusively.

Louis. I have no quarrel with what HomeGain does. You're accepting advertising from brokers, they are putting their IDX feed on that web site and paying for the clicks. I understand, although I didn't really understand it until today.

Do you understand that I have worked like a beaver for 12 years to generate a reasonable flow of business from the Internet to provide buyer leads for myself and about 25-35 agents over the years? HomeGain has always been serious competition, along with other aggregators, all of which have always been far better financed than I.

But, I love what I do and do it very well. However, I have to compete for Google SERP not only with local real estate agents and brokers, which is fine. I also have to compete for Google SERP with well finance entities that do not sell real estate.

To be honest, I've mellowed over the years. 5 -10 years ago, I wasn't this nice.

MAY

2008

Lenn- I found this fascinating. Amazing that you have both Homagain and Zillow on here trying to convince us that they are "the good guys" and whatever else it is they want us to believe. For my 2 cents......I would NEVER believe them over you......

One, we have a highly respected member of the community who knows about getting clients from the Internet, vs 2 big companies that make their money selling us stuff/selling us clicks/selling advertising (in my limited opinion) You have a proven tract record to many of us. They have the $$$ and power; which I don't believe is a good thing for getting people to believe you. They pay to convince us......

Oh, and I currently have a client that asked if I knew about Zillow. I said yes. What I didn't tell her was that zillow had her house for 40 thousand dollars more until I put the listing in there......I took it out (or think I did) because of the Fiduciary duty to my client !

Kathy. Zillow's model can never be accurate. IMO, it is predicated on information much of which is not related to market value.

When it comes to pricing homes to buy or sell, current local market information, condition, proximity to neighborhood facilities are all critical. Zillow relies on things like assessments, sold information, current listings, etc. There is no way it can be even "in the ball park".

Lenn-:) Thanks.......

Great post as always Lenn. I recently took a listing on a condo and spoke with the owner about claiming the property and changing the zestimate...but Zillow does not have any info on this particular property...Zillow in our area is extremely inaccurate...I have read where they are trying to make enhancements to correct their data and make it more accurate...but to play the bully on agents...tisk, tisk. Things are starting to get a little out of control :-(

Kristi. Thanks for stopping by. I agree. But, I don't believe that it's possible to estimate property by high tech. Even the appraiser in my area knocked on my door and walked through my house this year. If an experienced appraiser can't estimate without looking, how can an algorithm??

MAY

2008

Wow... I have to admit... that blog post by Sara really takes the cake but the real story is that Z and other sites like this make money from selling advertising and without visitors, the advertising value would be Zero.... So I understand why a representative of Zillow would even consider suggesting something along these lines. (And without listings.. they just have a gimmick.)

Let's be honest with consumers... does Z really have the top 1, 2 or 3 most trafficked site when it comes to a specific geographic location? (Of course when you use national numbers of a thousand + markets and you put the numbers all together they can make these claims... but just because a porn site might get a billion hits, it does not mean that agents need to list homes for sale on that site..)

Do sites such as Z, R.com or Trulia have actual statistics that a home sold because it was on their site? Or are they just going to continue using the "84% of all Buyers start their search for a home on the internet!" What % of the 84% just typed in (insert your market here) real estate and ended up going straight to an agents site? (In other words, if they had actual numbers of homes that did sell because it was on their site and it was good... they would certainly be advertising that %, don't you think?)

Good thing Sara made that post members only.... False and Misleading? Is it time to expose the truth of sites such as these and why they make comments like this?

Some people drink whatever Kool-Aid a stranger gives to them... the smart people ask what's in it.

I put one listing or two in a couple of years ago. I told David I would try it, but they were both lower than the market value. I had the same thought, how can I put a listing in here and then have the zeestimate come up as much lower. I felt it was a violation of my fiduciary responsiblity to my sellers too. I missed this but have spent an hour reading all the comments. I love an honest dialog on a blog. Personally this is a great discussion from you, Sarah, and Louis. I think it helps everyone understand and form their own opinions.

Paul. Thanks very much for posting your "right on point" post. I agree completely. The claims of Zillow and all the rest are just so much gobbledigook.

This zeal for a "national listing site" is so false. ALL REAL ESTATE SITES ARE NATIONAL. When folks search for real estate in my area, they'll find local agents on the web. They'll see homes for sale in my area. You don't need a national site for that. It's the Internet that is national, international and we are there.

You're right again It's our property, the listings, that Zillow uses to draw the numbers that they use to sell advertising. You are smarter than the average bear.

Missy. Indeed, it was a good conversation.

MAY

2008

Lenn, as always, you are so right. Zillow consistantly undervalues homes due to their lack of understanding the difference in the type of home and size. They're pulling comps that don't fit the same criteria except for proximity to the address. Homegain.com does the same thing. It is frustrating.

Bob. Thanks. If they were just pulling comps, their numbers wouldn't be as far off as they are. They also pull assessments from public records. That really screws up valuations.

I missed this post originally and was directed here from Benjamin Frank's post. The timing is great because I was just considering adding a new listing to Zillow, but wasn't crazy about the idea: low return on my time investment. Now with Zillow interjecting that I might be shirking my fiduciary duties, I'm definitely not wasting my time. How ironic for them to take that position when the majority of their "zestimates" are so off base that they're worse than useless: they're misleading!

MAY

2008

Wow, I didn't take Sara's post as being a zillow ad at all. I thought she was talking about not marketing homes to the interent where buyers are in general. Not specifically on Zillow.

I do have to a do some damage control from those zestimates with buyers that are walking around, but once you sit them down and run a few they laugh and no longer use the zestimate.

Sandra. Thanks for commenting. This is an old post and I thought it was off the radar.

I took Sara's post as accusing real estate listing agents of violating their duty of fiduciary to their sellers if they did not list that property in Zillow. That theory subscribed to by many who look for the "long tail" where by the listing benefits by having more eyes.

The very fact that we have to overcome the comments of our buyers and sellers about the Zillow erroneous estimates is sufficient to avoid putting a listing in that database.

We never really know the "seeds of doubt" that are caused by the purported "expert" site Zillow.

Matt. You are smarter than the average bear.

JUN

2008

GOSH -- Everyone wants to play "Realtor" . . . and Zillow is the worst offender. They offer the Pandora's Box of values on properties, and it's NOT based on anything substantive. It's based on information gathering.

Realtors have always been equated to used car sales people. So I will actually use that as the premise.

Who would buy a car based on the information found on the window sticker? All that information: MPG, what the car is equiped with, etc. and so on is posted. Would you buy a car without test driving it? Just go by the sticker . . . after all, it lists all the features the vehicle has to offer. And, you can see the car. The color, the style, the little dings.

What Zillow does is similar to the above. It has all the "information" listed. Prior sales, current sales, aerial photos, etc.

What both LACK is the test drive! And my own home is priced about $50,000 LESS then what I would value it -- and I'm a REALTOR (you'd think I might know a thing or two about houses, and my own neighborhood). The house that sold on the corner of the street (which has more traffic then the location of my property) is one of the "comps" Zillow uses. Oh, and they don't include the ATRIUM that is in the center of my home which is an open-air area, with sliding doors, visible from the living room, dining room, family room, which has a hot tub (that I never use). This was the builder's own home, and he put in the atrium and hot tub (back in the '70's it was a cool feature I guess). It's a LOVELY feature to the home, and the vines, trellis, plants that are there are gorgeous. Doesn't show up on the tax records either. Not a room, really. Oh, and the $12,000 I just spent last summer updating the windows . . .

Zillow wants to be a national MLS, I suppose. How long have they been in business?? And they aren't even Realtors (I doubt it very much), and they want to tell US about fiduciary dutiies?!?!? But the thing Zillow needs to be mindful of -- when they cast the first stones -- is the individual states' mandates. In my state, for example, it is considered practicing real estate without a license when an unlicensed entity tries to put buyers and sellers together. There's a ton of other things that Zillow is probably in violation on. But, hey, consumers all want to play "Realtor" and think that all we do is look up listings on the computer. Zillow let's them have their little "fix" and they play agent for hours on end, I'd imagine.

The information I obtain from my local RMLS is INVALUABLE! They are constantly changing input data forms, improving the way the site functions, adding total DOM (days on market) so that re-listed properties are seen as "new to the market." and on an on I could write.

And Craig's List . . . OMIGOSH that's another Pandora's Box. Because the posts get "buried" after awhile, it's SO hard to search even with key words.

I'm an agent OUT IN THE TRENCHES!! I work for clients . . . in the field. I am not pulling up public records to paste into a website. And how many times have I heard from my clients that the tax records are WRONG? A 5 bedroom house -- a bonafide 5 bedroom is a 4 bedroon on the tax record.

Zillow is a Goliath that has been around for a relatively short time, and yet . . . they want to cut in to many aspects of an industry that has been in existance for 100 years. I'm using the NAR (National Association of Realtors) . . . like them, or not, they have certainly done a lot for the general public in 100 years of establishment as a Realtor member organization.

And thanks to Zillow, some consumers think they know SO much more then I do about real estate, valuation, pricing . . . how many of you have heard someone say to you, "Well, ZILLOW has this at $XXX,000"??

So now, I have to argue with consumers about how that may be accurate, but probably is not. Pulling up my industry standard comps, and now Zillow's geek data to prove my point . . .

We live in America which is all about free market. And there are certainly more then one hamburger stand (McDonald's isn't the only place to get a burger). But not all systems, or hamburgers, are created equal. Zillow wants to take local standards of practice and geek it all up. And I'm sure in their board room they have the perfect business models just perculating. Again, I'm in the trenches and I can't stand anyone, or anything that has never sold a property while representing a client tell me how I should practice my profession.

JUL

This is basically the same problem I have with sites that express they have the expert _____ (plumber, painter, realtor: you fill in the blank), only to find out that the so called expert is just someone who paid for that spot. That is how this expert got to the top of the list. People look at these sites as actual truths, when there are so many sites that are not even local, trying to tell everyone what is going on locally. They are just a bunch of computer geeks sitting behind a desk writing programs to determine the value of a home in Clemente Ranch, a subdivision of Chandler, AZ. First of all, these people don't even know where this place is, have never seen any homes in this area (let alone this specific home that may be listed), don't know what is going on in the local market, and cannot tell you how they justified their value (other than some mysterious formula).

I am so in agreement with the first comment on this blog by Joan Whitebook. I love information, but we all must find a way to determine what is TRUE from what is PERCEIVED AS THE TRUTH. That is where a local Realtor should, must, and always will have the advantage.

"I am finding that buyer/sellers have a lot of access to information on the Internet -- which they take as TRUE! The consumers think they know a lot more than they know - it is a very dangerous perception and it is difficult to convince the consumers otherwise. I think this is a disturbing trend of "misinformation.""

05/16/2008 09:23 AM

by Joan Whitebook, ABR, e-Pro, CEBA (Buyer's Option Realty Services)

SEP

I find Zillow EXTREMELY frustrating to deal with and absolutely cringe when I hear clients tell me about the recent surfing they have done on the site...

NOV

i call it the "snake oil factor"

exploiting humanities basic qualities of curiosity and hope

it may also be called the "garden of eden apple factor"

these perverse companies prey on humanities basic quality of trust and innocence

there have always been "zillows"... always will be...

Lenny. Indeed. An apt description. Thanks.

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