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Zillow: Beating the Dead Horse

My response (note I didn't say "rant") about Zillow's claims that it is my fiduciary responsibility (post changed to a non public forum so link removed) to post all of my listings to Zillow got a little windy. I decided I should make it my own post to make sellers aware of a) what is and isn't fiduciary responsibility and b) understanding what does and doesn't work with marketing.

You can read NRS 645 to see what is defined as fiduciary responsibility in regards to Nevada law. You can read the Realtor Code of Ethics to see what is defined as far as duties owed to the public. As per my response to Lenn's post yesterday, I see nothing in there where it defines that I MUST post to Zillow or I am crossing the legal and ethical boundaries that I am to abide and sworn to.

Now here is where I have some problems with Zillow, in fact I may be breaking COE Article 12 (read Mariana Wagner's blog post about this please!) if I DO post on zillow. Here is what Mariana used to sum it up: " All of it boils down to this: Realtors® are bound by the Code of Ethics to advertise their listed properties and services in such that does NOT mislead the public in any way."

Now most of us know that Zillow isn't extremely accurate (I mean as in up to date and in perfecting their "valuation" code) in their "zestimates". Let's say we post a listing and the underlying value range zestimate is not accurate. What value have we brought to the real estate transaction in our duties owed to the client? Absolutely zero. If the zestimate is high, the seller client is going to think we are underselling their house. If the zestimate is low, the buyer client has the perception that the property is overpriced. We are doing no one justice.

Enough of that. Here is my response to the post:

I simply go in and let my seller's know what my marketing plan is. They get an outline of what I do and what I DO NOT do. A seller would think it was your fiduciary duty to carry only their listing and direct and oversee the marketing process.

That causes, in turn, frustration between the agent and the seller.

I have systems and either my seller likes my systems and will work within the confines of my systems or they don't like it and can move on to someone that has the systems to match or will simply be their puppet.

I let my sellers KNOW if they want to do something to market their home, they have complete control of doing their own outside marketing. I even let them know that if they bring a buyer to the table as a result of their own marketing, I will reduce my commission down to 2%.

Why do I do that? Simple. I know what brings on the buyers and what doesn't. I use and carefully analyze tracking. I have tracking on my RES, my Vflyer and incoming traffic to my website. I know where the traffic is coming from.

I got excited and manually entered lots and lots of listings onto Zillow when the listing feature was released. But then I stopped.

Why?

Because I was getting very little incoming traffic and no inquiries from Zillow. I entice people to my website by creating a single property site with the virtual tour, more pictures and the floorplan for the house. Less is more with any type of advertising whether you want people to land on your site or you want them to pick up the phone and call you.

I was thrilled with RES, Vflyer and P2A started SYNDICATING to Zillow because I don't want to spend any more time manually entering on a site that provides me very little return. Yet, people love Zillow, just like they love ineffective, high cost magazine ads. (BTW, I get a higher return from freebies like Zillow than mag ads.)

Even if I am not looking at web traffic, let's say I am looking at email inquiries or phone calls. I have never had one single Zillow email inquiry or one single incoming call where a buyer would identify themselves by saying "I found you on Zillow". I get more traffic and email/phone inquiries from a little obscure place called "hotpads."

I am not saying that Zillow doesn't produce sales. I am not saying Zillow is ineffective. I am not saying agents or FSBOs shouldn't work the "Z". What I am saying is Zillow isn't wildly effective with the way I market property. Do I still utilize Zillow? YES! Through the syndication process.

As for the MLS factor, we have a form that requires seller signature if we exclude their listing from the MLS. We do not yet have a form that requires a seller signature if we exclude them from Zillow.

Aside from all this SHHHHHHHHHHHHHH don't encourage more agents to get on the web! Those of us that have a decent web presence want to keep the secrets to ourselves.

Now this gets me all to wondering. Why aren't highly branded websites (and other advertising mediums) held by the same standards of conduct and ethics that Realtors are sworn in and licensed to protect?

I don't doubt that Zillow has the traffic, it draws in a nationwide audience. I have no doubt the amount of time that I spend manually entering the listing on Zillow is not worth it.

Here is something else to ponder. I am going to show a couple of properties that I am marketing and show up on my Zillow dashboard.

When I go to a listing appointment, I let my sellers know that I am placing their listing on close to 100 websites. I also give them some examples on how I can prove that I am diligent on marketing their property and not just branding myself all over the web. I give them addresses of properties I am marketing to google. There are people deep in the web but they are only there branding themselves, not using all the tools they can possibly use to sell the home for the highest price in the quickest time frame possible.

Back to the main plot. All the examples of googled addresses are currently listed on Zillow, OK?

Zillow's SEO is MISERABLE. SEO (for common folk) is an acronym for Search Engine Optimization. That means when you type something in the lil google search box, that you expect all the matches showing up on the search pages. I don't think I have even ever seen Zillow Show Up. Home 1 Home 2 Home 3

So I think Zillow has a couple of matters to attend to before they accuse US of violating OUR Fiduciary Responsibilities to our sellers: Zillow, where does your Fiduciary Responsibility lie with agents, buyers, sellers and all your "lookers"?

If you are a Las Vegas Area Home Owner who is considering selling your house, please call 702-966-2494 and press extension zero. We will set up an appointment so you can interview us and show you what works with marketing your home and what doesn't. If you want to sell a home outside of the Las Vegas area and want to work with a professional who is knowledgable with the internet marketing process, I have MANY MANY referral partners outside of my area that I will be happy to refer you to!

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Posted by Renee Burrows - Las Vegas NV Valley - Homes For Sale - SRES - SRS - AHWD - ABR on 05/17/2008 07:30 PM

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Originally posted at: Nevada Real Estate >> Las Vegas Real Estate Specialist: Zillow: Beating the Dead Horse

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48 Comments on Zillow: Beating the Dead Horse

MAY

2008

Renee,,,

When I read your comment my first instinct was that it should be written as a separate post. Not only did you do just that, you should be considered for a feature post! Congratulations, you said it better that I could ever hope to do!

Thank you Richard! :curtsy curtsy: Fiduciary duties holds a lot of accountability. To say we are shirking ours without looking inward is a little insane. Hmmm...maybe that's what they were doing when they started talking like that. The Zillow brand isn't stupid. Maybe they are just looking for agent feedback! Well here it is!

Well, Zillow This! I agree with you and I get a little razzed up when anybody starts telling me what is ethical and what is not, particularly when their position is self-serving. Zillow could do a lot of good by cleaning up their own act and going back to being a national valuation sounding board. I used to ask my clients to go on Zillow and do the self-editing routine for their home, but now Zillow has gone so commercial and crazy that most folks cannot even figure out how to edit their own home listing.
Oh, Well, on to the next New and Great Thing!
JimG

It is your duty as a listing agent to put the property in front of as many buyers as possible. I do a vflyer and it uploads to a bunch of sites including Zillow.

Bravo!! Lady you are one firecracker and I'm proud to know you.

Hey Sweet Renee,

We have the same crap going on here for years. nothing fazes me anymore.

Cape Coral: BINGO you get it!

Adam: I syndicate (won't manually enter to Zillow also). Here is my next response on that post that can thinly veil a response in regards to your comment. This is a debate and nothing but love, so don't take it personally, K?

I posted how the SEO for Zillow listings is NEARLY non-existent. That is no different than an agent who just brands THEMSELVES saying "yea I have a good web presence, google me" than an agent who brands themselves and puts their listings out there on the net saying "yea I have a good web presence, google my listing addresses."

Partial wikipedia definition of fiduciary duty: "When a fiduciary duty is imposed, equity requires a stricter standard of behavior than the comparable tortious duty of care at common law. It is said the fiduciary has a duty not to be in a situation where personal interests and fiduciary duty conflict, a duty not to be in a situation where their fiduciary duty conflicts with another fiduciary duty, and a duty not to profit from their fiduciary position without express knowledge and consent. A fiduciary cannot have a conflict of interest. It has been said that fiduciaries must conduct themselves "at a level higher than that trodden by the crowd"^[2] and that "[t]he distinguishing or overriding duty of a fiduciary is the obligation of undivided loyalty."^[3]

Our duty to our clients is to not necessarily post on EVERY single FREE classified website we can find but to find the ones that are special, the ones that can drive traffic to our listings through our tracking devices. Not ones that are research portals for homeowners, potential buyers, sellers or nosy friends that just want to see "what your property is worth".

You have to direct your time, energy and effort on the ones that produce results.

Zillow's lack of SEO for the listings we manually post or syndicate (the way I post on Z) show that they lack fiduciary duty towards us, their consumer. They are (no different than us I guess) consumed with their own agenda and I don't really think that is selling houses. So with all the fiduciary duty cries from Zillow where is their fiduciary duty to us? Why can't we google a posted home's address and find it there on Zillow? Heck, why can't we google ANY address and find it on Zillow?

You know I am huge with tracking and track backs from Zillow are there but they are virtually non-existent. That is why I call Zillow a research portal for consumers, not a place to buy or sell homes.

This <the zillow post referenced in original post> post was designed to inflamed the masses. Not sure for what reason or the agenda behind it. Get sellers pissed at their Realtors? Guilt Realtors into posting on their site? I dunno?!?!? I do see underlying tones of desperation needing to populate a site that may not be going in the direction they want it to go.

Kris: thank you thank you, I like to be a firecracker :)

Neal: Hmmm, I need a new recipe, joke and market report! You can take something that is going the wrong direction and always make it right, I admire you for that :)

I love this post. I spent a lot of time trying to keep my listings current on Zillow last year, and the when p2a started syndicating, I was very happy. But like you, I never got one e-mail or phone call from a zillow listing. I don't even sign on anymore. If they lost my interest, I would guess the same has happened to most other agents.

I like your part about Zillow's duty to make their "Zestimates" more accurate. If it weren't for those being so out of whack - things would be much easier!

Tina in Virginia

So in the last few days how much have we all contributed to a better SEO for Zillow by the blogs posts and comments :-)

I am have always been a critic of Zillow! I think anyone that claims to quote real estate values when they have not seen a property and cannot predict all the different communities around the country should be discounted as a scam. This is what I think Zillow is.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. Nowhere in Sara's post was it said or implied "that it is my fiduciary responsibility to post all of my listings to Zillow." Sara even states in her first comment "I was just trying to talk in generality ..."

This could have been a great discussion on the pros and cons of listing syndication, or on where do we draw the line on internet marketing, or on controlling our information online. Instead of the broader picture of online listing exposure, agents have zealously zeroed in on Zillow and Zestimates.

Renee,

Thank you for doing the excellent post! I'm sure Sara is perfectly nice, and Zillow has its place, but one shouldn't even approach a menacing/fear inducing tone concerning fiduciary duty - "generality" statements don't take this off the hook.

The hot button was hit and now the issue should be addressed. The agent comments raise valid points - let's examine sites like Zillow - what standards should they be held to? What are we really entering into when we use sites like this? Who is responsible for information floating around on the internet which we no longer control? And many more. Good discussion.

I believe it's your ethical duty to get your client's house sold.

How you choose to market it is your decision.

If that is not true then why do sellers need us in the first place?

If all it took to get a house sold was to post it on as many websites as possible, a group of trained monkeys could push the keys.

Renee, I syndicate on Zillow, but don't post anymore. It violates and hurts my fiduciary responsibility to my sellers when a list a home, higher or lower than Zillow posts. I know they say they have stat's that are within 10% of their posted price, but it is not fair to my sellers. I know the market here, not the tax records.

bucket of water

Renee.... I read Sara's and Lenn's post.... some interesting discussions.... I agree with what George had stated and I am also not a huge fan of Zillow either... and they know this. Overall, I don't care for false advertsing and they, Zillow, certainly put it in the consumer's heads that they offer the best on their site and that their site is the best. And I also don't care for the Zillow Mortgage lead generator... I am seeing so many quotes that are being low balled. But they say it's one of the better sites for rate quotes and that they are trying to make it sound fool proof in regards to misleading quotes. That statement alone ticks me off... you will never be able to curb that type of quoting... anyhow, that's another whole story in itself. Here is a bucket of water to cool that firecracker off... ;o)

jeff belonger

Dawn's comment above raises some great questions. "What standards should sites like Zillow be held to? What are we really entering into when we use sites like this?" Sites - Plural. I'm hoping Rainers will be willing to discuss the broader implications of all online listing sites.

Renee.....Oh, dirty word, the "Z" word. I agree with Missy. They claim to be within 10% of the true value. WHAT? 10% on a home could make or break a sale, as we all know.

Interesting fact stated on their web site on how they figure their "zestimates" :This formula is built using what our statisticians call "a proprietary algorithm" - big words for "secret formula." That is an EXACT statement by "Z".

"Z" also proudly states that some of their values are only considered "fair" on a scale of "Best, good and fair". Gee, gives me faith that they know the true values, LOL.

None of our formulas are secret! Ours are factual data. Now, try to tell me where to advertise MY listing.

Renee~ NO ONE knows the market better than a experienced agent in that particular area. How in the world could Zillow know the value of each and every house? IMPOSSIBLE! Internet marketing IS where we should all be focusing, but you have to pick WHERE to market it and what works for your area.

We have had many in office discussions about Zillow and there appraisal function. THe numbers have been way off in the northeast ohio area. I agree that one has to be comfortabel about that site.

Stan

The whole thing was ludicrous. Zillow creates a ton of problems with respect to property values in our area. They are so far off the mark so often that its almost laughable. Then they imply that I am obligated by my fiduciary duty to use them? THis is just too funny for words.

Note that the silence from zillow on these posts is deafening.

MAY

2008

John, the first and most basic standard that all online listing sites should be held to is this:

The homeowner or agent who enters the listing controls the listing.

I think voluntarily giving up control of the listing could be a violation of your fiduciary duty. Essentially you are giving away the agency which was entrusted to you by allowing others to make decisions that affect your client's listing.

What does "control" mean to me.

1. You have the ability to remove the listing in a timely fashion.

You have to be able to do this if the listing expires or the next agent could file a complaint against you for marketing his or her listing and you could be fined by your MLS.

2. You have the ability to edit/change the listing in a timely fashion.

You have to be able to change pricing, correct errors, etc. Also you have to know that those corrections will be forwarded to all sites publishing the listing which goes to issue 4 below.

3. No one but you or the homeowner has the ability to change/edit the listing.

I can't fathom a defense for knowingly granting someone else permission to change or edit your listing without your approval. It seems to me like doing so is handing over agency to them.

4. The listing cannot be published anywhere without your prior consent.

If you don't know where the listing is being published, you can't ensure that the data was transferred accurately and that it is maintained to reflect corrections and changes. And yet the only person with legal responsibility for the listing, according to the terms of the listing aggregators, is you.

Zillow's current Terms of Use violates at least three of these conditions. They claim ownership of the content as soon as it is posted, so you cannot remove it unless they agree to remove it. They claim the right to edit/change the listing, which is amazing since they accept no liability for the listing. They further claim the right to resell ("sublicense") the listing without getting your permission and without notifying you so that you know where the listing has been reposted.

How can you manage the listing on behalf of your client under those circumstances?

I've quoted Zillow's policy in the other two threads, but as you have pointed out, the issue of voluntarily surrendering control of the listing applies to all listing aggregators. I look forward to reading your thoughts on that issue.

Renee - This is a fantastic retort to Sara's post. I didn't even comment on it because it just struck me as propaganda. Very, very nicely done.

Thats why we get along...two firecrackers in two different states!

note to self: Send a thank you card and dinner & a movie to Renee Burrows for saving me the trouble of sitting down and typing out more or less the exact same thing (opinion not words).

I'm a bit behind in the rain and I just read that post. Way to go girl! Way to go!

Oooooohhhhhh I just had a very wicked idea/concept come to mind. THANK YOU! Be careful Zillow what you ask for...you just might get it.

Larry: EXACTLY! Consumers view it as a research portal and not as a way to search for homes.

Michael: First off, I want to thank you for taking the time to write your perspective, as an appraiser on the Z topic! It was very well thought out and your last paragraph has made me consider unchecking the box that would syndicate to Z. Compensation from a "free" site can lead to a slippery slope. Maybe if it threw me a bone every once in a while, it could be worth it. On the flip side, If the banks were convinced that this was such a great tool, how many REO agents would be in hot water for underselling their assets?

Tina: Thanks for stopping by and your kind comments!

Cindy: that thought definitely crossed my mind! What made me do it was the fact that this was a public post and I felt it was my "fiduciary duty" to create my own public post on MY OPINION of the subject. This is the 4th article that I have given GJ to Z, I am not the only one that has been writing about them and still, their listings don't show up on google when you search by address. One more article isn't going to change things.

George: THat was pretty forward! I hope you read Michael's comments also. He is an appraiser and had some wonderful insight!

John: I realize that she has clarified but the way the post was posed insinuated she was looking for some insight into many questions. It was also a public post and I felt like I should give my opinion (whatever that is worth) in my own public post. THe public needs to know that they need to perform their own due diligence prior to signing an Exclusive Right to Sell Agreement. If I felt the underlying tones, if Lenn felt the underlying tones, if Frank felt the underlying tones then Joe Blow Consumer can feel the underlying tones and they deserve to hear others opinions. I feel I addressed her <clarified> question in my first five paragraphs of my first response. I then addressed the underlying tones in the rest of my responses and this post. It boils down to one simple answer if this were posed correctly: It is up to the consumer to INTERVIEW and decide what agent and marketing plan works for them. We have had discussions on paper flyers before. What if your team doesn't use them and mine does. Let's say your sign company accidentally put a flyer box up that was empty the whole entire time. Let's say that there are statistics that 95% of the buyers pull a flyer out of the sign box. Let's say a buyer drove up to your empty flyer box and the seller saw it. Let's say in their mind they lost their buyer because there were no flyers in that box. The post insinuated basically that you skipped out on your fiduciary duties (inflammable verbiage) and you have the potential to get sued (more inflammable verbiage.) As I explained to Sara, there is NO way that every listing agent can use every marketing portal (from paper to net). It is up to the consumer to decide who's marketing plan is best to give the highest exposure to the home. Insinunation of making sure every listing goes on every #2 and #3 real estate website also made me jump to conclusions. Only love, man :)

Dawn: Thank you! There have been many discussions about Trulia of late, also!

Jim: THANK YOU! Seriously, what is marketing for, to find buyers. Really is it necessarily for that ONE house?!?! If it were, people wouldn't need us.

Missy: BINGO! Casitas, pools, upgrades all need a trained eye to get pricing (or valuations) correct. If the banks believed that Z was a great product, appraisers would no longer be useful.

Elizabeth: The consumers will tell us where to advertise our listings! The consumers have told me "I want to lowball because Z said it is worth this." The consumers have told me "I want to list my house 20% above market because Z said that." The lack of my phone ringing or emails or web trackbacks tell me Z isn't a place where buyers are seriously searching. Researching maybe, not searching.

Vickie: AMEN!

Stan: Exactly!

Ruthmarie: There was a clarification on Sara's post when I read this morning.

Frank: Thank you thank you thank you for chiming in and coming back. Your input has been appreciated.

Jesse: That is how it struck me too!

Neal: BOOM!

Jessica: You came through the back door when I was writing my response. Thanks I think most of us read it the same "wrong" way. I felt I owed the consumer my opinion :)

Please let me start by saying Zillow DOES NOT think you have a duty to post your listing to the website. . I am sincerely and truly sorry that people read that post and got that message. That message was not my intent and it personally pains me that people think it was. I have updated my original post to try to make this more clear. You are 100% right that you duty is to do only whatever it is you said you were going to do, from a marketing standpoint.

With respect to returns on your Zillow postings- There is a counter on each listing so that you can see how many people have viewed the property on the site. Also, we are actively testing different design of links and text to see what works best in driving as many leads and clicks to the realtor as possible. We hope to get better as a lead source for you.

With regards to accuracy, we try to be as transparent about our numbers as possible. We have a link to our accuracy table right on the home page in the search box and at the bottom of of the page where you can drill down to see accuracy numbers in your specific county. (http://www.zillow.com/howto/DataCoverageZestimateAccuracy.htm) We also include a link to what the zestimate represents next to the number every time it is presented.

Our users hold us accountable. If we didn't have a product the public liked, they wouldn't go there and we wouldn't be in business. If we were mishandling leads or listing presentation online or had intentions of getting in the transactional business, our real estate partners wouldn't feed to us. And we do read posts like yours and figure out how we can do better. If fact there have been many changes on the site that came about specifically from AR feedback and comments. I fully believe in the power of community holding people, websites and products and service accountable.

Sara: Thanks for your response and clarification. In my first response to you I did dedicate the first 5 paragraphs to what I believed was your main intent (and your clarified intent) to the post. I also felt you were seeking feedback on some objections you were getting from brokers.

Since your post was public, I made my post public too. The consumers deserve to hear a retort. I have no doubt that Zillow is popular with the public but they are viewing it (from the feedback I get, which raises more objections...........errr....headaches............ on pricing, from buyers AND sellers through the sales process) as a credible research portal.

Using inflammatory words such as "fiduciary duty" and "lawsuit" sends consumers the wrong message about what listing, buying and selling a home is really all about. They should interview to find the right agent with the right marketing plan. Doesn't matter if they use color flyers or internet, really. It is who is the most competent person to sell the house.

This could have been a great discussion on the pros and cons of listing syndication...

It still can be, if we don't lose focus.

Is it a violation of fiduciary duty to give control of the listing to a third party?

Renee - This is why I made the statement about Zillow. Real Estate values are appreciating 2-3% in Texas, Seattle and a few other markets. Property values are depreciating nearly double digits in some areas of Michigan and some areas of California. The rest of the country is somewhere in between these ranges. There is no way Zillow or any company that has never seen a property accurately estimate it's value. I know of a local Realtor that met with sellers and gave them a CMA. The sellers argued that the agents value was far below Zillow's estimate of value. There was a $32,000 difference between the agents and Zillow's estimate of value. The agent turned down the listing and the sellers found a very hungry and inexperienced Realtor to take the listing. The listing sat on the market for over 10 months and the sellers are now in the middle of a short sale that has not been successful and are facing foreclosure. Somebody needs to explain to me how Zillow has been allowed to continue to give these erroneous real estate values that are based on absolutely no factual and reliable information. Many Realtors and sellers in our area now writing the National Association of Realtor and our congressmen in an effort to do something about this. My fiduciary responsibilty is to my clients to give them the best service, couseling and advice possible.

P.S. I posted a listing on Zillow a year and a half ago and it stayed on Zillow without even one call or email from customers over an excess of 6 months. I have invested my efforts in my own site which has skyrocketed on the search engines and is reaping me 7-10 leads a week. My advice to my clients is to stay clear of Zillow!

Thanks Renee. I see the "fiduciary" matter is developing legs. Good. It's a debate that needs to be read.

I believe that Sara's post was MEMBERS ONLY, which is the only reason mine is. I am very reluctant to post to MEMBERS ONLY because most matters can be public. This one certainly can.

I believe I'll go back and make mine public and just remove the link to Sara's post.

My duty of fiducuary to my clients requires that I promote my buyer's interest above my own.

If I were to take a listing and not post it to the MLS so I could have an opportunity to produre a buyer in order to maximize my fee and not pay a co-op without advising my buyer of that omission, OR telling the buyer that it is in their best interest to eschew the MLS, that would surely violate my duty of fiduciary to my client. Even if the buyer agreed, they wouldn't understand the ramifications of not being in the MLS. This is one of the problems that agents working with buyer have in NY State and around where they have the "exclusive" listings. They have rationalized it to the sellers, but that doesn't make it right

Excellent post and excellent comments. I love it when we get a conversation going.

I've made my post PUBLIC.

Frank: You have really educated me in regards to TOS of some listing providers. I think we should start reading those to see where the information is going. THere should be an opt out form for that site too for homes that wish to opt out of a zesty situation. Was that you that mentioned it or someone else?

George: BUENO! I do believe it is a violation of fiduciary duty IF an agent takes an overpriced listing. Unfortunately there are so many eager to do so that they can be turned down time and time again and still find someone. :GROAN:

Lenn: Sara's post was public till this morning and I am usually a little more diligent than running out and posting member's only in a public forum. I am blushing and hope you can accept my most humble apology! Thank you for weighing in, it is all about promoting our client's interest above our own. MLS exclusions have their place, I have done them, but for the right reasons. Many are to get the marketing together and blow it all out on a super priced listing all at once when it goes into the MLS. I have never double ended on an MLS exclusion! What I have effectively done is brought in the best offer at the best terms. I don't want anyone dictating who, how, when, what, where and why I will be spending my marketing time and dollars. I will analyze that and decide that info on my own. There are many and many listings being placed on the market currently (since our market is HOT) with internet exclusions (not to be confused with MLS exclusions.) The reasons vary and most have to do with confusion on searching R dot com and showing up when it is under contingent contract. People can market many different ways and still accomplish the same goal: selling the house. It has nothing to do with exposure but pricing. Everything else is lead generation.

Forgotten Jeff Belonger: Hmmm a lending tree and r dot com all in one. I think LT had it's time and place. I don't think they do any more with the amount of foreclosures going on. Don't you think mortgage loan consumers are a little more careful and can see past those practices.....or not? Your opinion matters!

Renee, many of the online listings publishers resell listings and a few refuse to disclose to which sites your listing has been resold. At the same time, they place all liability on you, hiding behind the old Napster defense that they are merely the platform you used to publish the information. So, if someone complains to the MLS about an online listing with your name on it, you'll be left paying the fine while all the listing sites cashed in.

The solution is simple. You control the listing. The listing can't be modified by anyone but you (agent or homeowner) and it can't be resold ("sublicensed") without you receiving prior notification and approving of the sublicensees. You also have the option of cancelling the listing within a reasonable time frame and that cancellation should be transmitted to all of the sublicensees.

Does your local newspaper resell your listing without notification?

Renee.... I still don't think all consumers can look past these practices. I will be writing about this tomorrow. It's not just about the sleezy online lead generators making promises most of the time. Those promises that can be easily broken. And usually because they are in different states, which can sometimes hurt my business. And an FYI... 65% of my business is out of state and in 15 1/2 years, I have a 99% closing ratio. But I am getting away from the meat and potatoes.

Here is what I am seeing and finding out... the last 12 to 15 consumers that I have spoken to, to pre-qualify them, have been led down the wrong paths. They aren't being asked the basic questions or told all of the answers that they should be told. This is soooo wrong and misleading. And these consumers aren't getting these people from places such as Lending Tree or Zillow mortgage. 25% are coming from what was just mentioned.... some from just searching online, blogs, web sites, some from advertising, some from realtor referrals, and others from just referrals from friends and family.

This is the conclusion that I have come up with... and I am not here to proclaim that I am the best and nobody is better than me. There are some great loan officers out there... but there are a lot more that are not so great. There are even some that write some great basic blogs, but I wonder if they ask the right questions. In any case.... I am finding so many loan officers not asking all of the appropriate questions. Two that stand out are the consumers goals and what payment would they feel comfortable with. The other issues? Not telling them the rate, payment, or giving them a good faith estimate. As I mentioned, I will be writing about this tomorrow. Sorry that this was so long, but I am just pissed at so many in the mortgage industry, who just mislead the consumer, hoping to have a leg up on the consumer, steering them in the wrong direction.... thanks

jeff belonger

I have read Sara's Lenn's, and now yours. I don't have an issue with Zillow... other than the wildly innaccurate Zestimates... I think Sara miscalculated.

And if Zillow really wants to be more transparent in its Zestimate accuracy, they should NOT have a link on a page to the accuracy table. It should be right there on EVERY sigle valuation.

This properties Zestimate is $237,800*

*This price has a 75% chance of being with 20% of the actual market value.

That would be transparent. I talk to a lot of consumers that think that Zillow MUST be more accurate than a real estate agent... since they have "an algorithm." Unless the property they want to sell is Zestimated too low, or the one they want to buy is Zestimated too high.

Renee... Lane makes some good points. But Lane, if you make these statements, how can you not have a problem with Zillow then? It's like if I were to say.... I don't have a problem with loan officers that mislead, as long as they would be educating and straight forward. Well, I do have an issue with more than 50% of the loan officers out there. I am so damn tired of trying to compete with a loan officer that doesn't tell the consumer what their payment or rate is... or shows a good faith estimate, yet the consumer still feels comfortable with that person. That statement along just sucks... and sucks bad....

Renee... here is a link to that post that I wrote about, in regards to Zillows mortgage lead generator. Zillow Mortgage Marketplace & Lending Tree -- Online Lead Generators - What does it all mean?

jeff belonger

Renee,

Who is Zillow to dictate to Realtors what their fiduciary responsibility is to their clients?

Did I miss something here? Such a scenario seems to be completely out of line.

MAY

2008

Renee - what a great post. I had buyers who came to an open house and felt the house was unfairly priced thanks to the zestimate. The data on Zillow was based on other subdivisions that would not be used as comparable properties. I am amazed by a thought process that we are not doing our fid. duty by putting it on their site ;it hurt my sellers and I had to do more work to correct the misinformation. Again thanks for such good points and a thought provoking topic.

My Experience with Zillow has been exactly the same as yours. Great Post!

MAY

2008

The real travesty is Sara Bonert creating a false and misleading statement that homes have to be on Z to sell...

Sure.. 84% of buyers do start their search on the internet but the statistics of why they actually buy and through who undeniably support the actual real estate agent. (What percentage of the 84% are just doing a google search for actual real estate agents?)

Until Z, R.com, T or any of these other services can provide hard facts and statistics that prove that listing homes on their site actually sells the home... all they are doing is creating FALSE and Misleading statements to line their pocket books.

The web is a terrific tool and zillow is one of those interesting places that is trying it's best to make a place for themselves. I haven't been a fan of the site, but certainly respect what they have accomplished. I wish I could drive that kind of traffic to my site.

I think the interesting piece will be if some lawsuit crazy bunch picks on them and their zestimates claiming some kind of loss of property value due to them. Maybe it sounds far fetched, but I think there are enough people who could substantiate how wrong they are.

Zillow really needs to fix that or I think it could cost them big down the road. Just my .02

Michael, thanks for the real world example! Maybe it isn't that far fetched.

In my opinion I have a fiduciary responsibility to my seller and it depends on the client as to whether advertising on a third party site is in their best interest.

MAY

2008

Great post with really well made points. I could be wrong, but I don't think the Zestimate breaks down how they specifically pick a value for your home, or do they? If they don't, then there's no transparency, without that I would hope most people look at a zestimate with a critical eye. Although, I'm sure that only happens if the zestimate comes in lower than what the owner was anticipating;-) Valuations simply can't be done on mass scale yet. A good example is how my town just reassessed property values and some of the values they came up with were soooo off base compared to actual market value.

Frank: I am absolutely finding that out as I have a listing that will NOT disappear off the internet and the buyer's aren't happy about it!! I delete and delete and it is like a ghost from the past that keeps haunting me and coming back!

George: It is our responsibility and then we are not believed <as if it were our fault or we were lying> when we try to show them the truth.

Jeff: Thanks for the clarification and posting your new post here.

Lane: I don't know how they can do that unless they become licensed in every state and start pulling the information from the MLS. Concessions, unpermitted improvements and other things need to be taken into account in order for the "algorythm" to get closer.

Kirk: The scenario you missed was a public post changed to private therefore I removed the link. I do think this is a good discussion for the public to see so it will remain public and if you would like the link, just email me! We have appraisers, mortgage and agents chiming in here from so many perspectives.

Shannon: Our fiduciary duty is to know what sells a home and what works for me may not work for you or what works for you may not work for me. What if we can both sell the house in the same timeframe and net the sellers the same amount of money by doing different things? I would say we both fulfilled our fiduciary duties! Heck, I know people who don't do squat other than putting it in the MLS and are highly successful!

June: Thanks for buzzing by! I hope all is well in high rise land :)

Paul: Exactly! LIke I said to Shannon, I have seen many agents sell by not doing much other than putting it in the MLS. They are highly successful and fulfilling their duties to their clients. SHould we shame them? NO!

Greg: That is why I was wondering about accountability and their fiduciary duty to us and the public. Legal disclaimers? BAH!

Michael!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW! Bank custodians are using Zmates????? As far as the BPOs go, I have some stories to tell you this week! My short sale came in at 100K too high. The agent didn't account for the casitas and pools. How hard is it to know what those things are worth and add or subtract for them? In the mean time I kissed two buyers goodbye because they wouldn't give me the goods on the BPO so I could explain it. Also, I don't know if you heard of the case with the straw buyers here. Anyways, did a BPO on one of the straw buyers this week (knew it was cuz the party that was guilty was the list agent). List price = $488K, Sale Price = $535K, Seller Concessions = $45K. I don't believe Z accounts for concessions like that. 432 such transactions in these charges. That is a lot of values impacted. For giggles (OK the BPO report), I went to the Clark County Recorder's site and put the owner of record on there. The owner of record was in default on two other properties. I searched the two other properties histories. Same thing. As I mentioned above, Z has to pick up on the concessions to make their estimates a little better. How would an appraiser appraise a property like that and how would it affect the values in the neighborhood if only sales prices are looked at? FYI: I only do BPOs to determine current 30, 60, 90 and 120 day list prices. I am not an appraiser although I would love to be.

JoEllen: :clap clap: Maybe I could have said it that way in fewer words, thanks :)

Matt: Used to be one number, now it is a range and the one number is kind of small.

JUN

2008

Zillow can kill more deals than anything. I really wonder where they get their figures from. I agree it is great when the consumer is informed but not misinformed.

JUL

2008

I've never had an experience where Zillow killed a deal. Does anyone really take the 'Zestimate' so seriously as to claim it accurate?

To be fair, I have to write that we syndicate to Zillow and gotten some responses.

Being a sucker for controversy, I'm enjoying seeing you, Sara and everyone else weigh in on this.

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