Typically, I try to avoid heated discussions about Search Engine Optimization - especially if it involves my competition. Most of the time, chiming in just adds fuel to the fire. But a number of people have asked for my take about the recent advice given by Mary McKnight concerning the number of comments in a blog post having a negative effect on SEO. So with that in mind, I decided to write a quick post to give my take on things. If you are not privy to the discussion here is a quick recap…
Mary basically said (paraphrasing) that lots of comments can alter the keyword density of your post and therefore can negative effect in your ability rank high in the search engines for that post. You can view the video below…
Matt Cutts', head of Google Webspam team writes on his blog "I'd recommend thinking more about words and variants (the "long-tail") and thinking less about keyword density or repeating phrases."
Amongst SEO experts it is pretty much agreed that you should NOT be concerned about the keyword density on your blog post. Google's algorithms are very advanced. This MIGHT have been a concern 3-5 years ago, but not now.
I would have to second Jonathan Washburn on this one. Now Marry does make an interesting case about this. In fact, I brought up a similar point a while ago in a post about too many comments adding too many outgoing links. But at the end of the day said...
I have to believe with the amount of technology they have, they are smart enough to know that these are simply links from comments.
So let's dig into this in a little more detail about why I think Mary's concept is a non-issue…
Keyword Density is an Outdated Concept
Today, it's more about the site or page theme. Let me give you a great example. My company originally a video and marketing company that simply fell into the real estate web design niche. So while I was busy designing websites for Realtors, I didn't have time to redesign or change the copy on my company website. Because of this, my site was not centered around Web Design for Realtors. In fact, it did not even mention the phrase "real estate web design" once in the entire website! Yet I still ranked on page one for that keyword! Why? Because I had so many backlinks and real estate related websites linking to me. Now I am not suggesting that you shouldn't include your target search phrase, I am merely using this example to prove my point.
What is the Theme of Your Website?
Think Site Theme and Page Theme instead of keywords. Jon hit the nail on the head. Matt Cutts specifically talks about this (the infamous Linux Printer Post). The old way of SEO was to repeat a phrase many times. The new way (not really that new) is to think about latent semantics (synonyms and themes).
Comments Reinforce the Theme
If I write a blog post about blue widgets, then it seems logical that people will comment about blue widgets. So more comments will only reinforce the theme, not dilute it. Plus, if a blog is written correctly, it will spark the conversation. People will leave relevant comments. You, as the blogger, can then make additional comments to keep the conversation going on the right track. Sure, there will always be people who leave the generic "great post" just to get their points on ActiveRain. But don't you think a $133 Billion dollar company such as Google has refined their algorithm to know the difference between the post and the comments? I am not a programmer and I can think of a dozen different ways to easily determine that by simply looking at the code.
High Value Posts Equals Many Comments
Many comments typically translate to high value. Now I know that this is not a hard and fast rule, but think about it for a second. If I write a dog of a post, I am probably not going to get many comments. But if I write something of high value, then it will probably spur many people to leave a comment. Plus, many people commenting, means that many people have visited your blog. The more eyeballs that are looking at the post translates into a greater chance of other bloggers and websites linking to that post.
Just Test The Theory
While it would be difficult to do a true scientific test, you can do a general test of this theory by looking at posts with lots of comments and see if they show up in search engines. I did a few different tests and found that many of the top blogs that show up in search engines do have lots of people commenting. Now keep in mind, it's difficult to accurately test this theory since posts with many comments also typically received many backlinks (which only reinforces my theory of more comments translate into high value)
So with that said, feel free to comment all you want on this, and any other post I write. The more the better! If you want, you can even link to it! I won't mind. ;-)
To Your SEO Success,
Brad Carroll - Dakno Marketing
man the knowledge here is to much for my little mind. Given the fact the SEO and back links and all the other it's and bit's build a great real estate bussiness what 5 big things should be done here in my active rain account and my personal website ?
thanks
Eric Reid,
Managing Broker Renaissance Realty Group Inc.
Short Sale Certified
Graduate Harris Real Estate University
Office: 404-921-2067 x 102
Fax: 770-513-4443
Search All Georgia Homes for Sale at www.GeorgiaOnlineHomes.com
Brad, This is a very interesting post. There have been a few times on Google when I have searched for a specific phrase and I have been directed to an article not because of the post, but because of the comments. So if the comments are relevant to the post I think they help.
Brad -- thanks for this explanation. . . I am in the process of developing a new blog/website and am researching the best ways to build great SEO. . .I know it is a time consuming process, but I'm glad to know that drawing people there and eliciting a conversation is a great thing!
I watched that video and thought it strange that you would want to limit comments. I write for connections - for dialog - for interaction. A couple of weeks ago I was contacted by the Washington Post because of a comment I made on someones blog.
Brad, I completely agree with you. I'm not a "techie" and most of this stuff is over my head but......I do get tons of comments. I've written 441 posts on AR and have received over 20,000 comments!! That's an average of about 50 per post!!! I get great SERP for my blog so obviously the comments have not diluted anything. That's all I know:)
Good message. My guess is that if bloggers would spend 99% or their time on writing quality articles instead of worrying too much about SEO the higher rankings would follow.
"SEO is the modern religion; so little is unknown and so many think they know the only way to heaven"
So it goes back to the question posed on your article, Brian. Who can you trust? Who is the gatekeeper of SEO Truth? How do the masses determine whether someone is false prophet? Maybe everyone should simply admit that they don't know it all, that it's simply their best guess...
For all you search cognescenti out there, don't forget about "alt" tags. These are the little messages that pop up when you mouse over an image or a link. The search 'bots are placing increasing emphasis on alt tags, so don't forget to use them.
Aida: SEO = Search Engine Optimization Mana: I agree. And typically, the comments do nothing but support the main post topic
Jo: Yes. While a blog is not a forum, it is a conversation. A Blogger starts the conversation and people comment to continue the conversation. Bryant: Wow 50 comments per post. That’s strong! Thanks for the example.
Joe: Well said!
Jay: You are right Mary is very knowledgeable. I actually like topics like this because it helps keep us all on out toes.
Brian Brady: HAHA good analogy. The only thing you can do is develop an SEO approach based off of set truths (i.e. Information that comes directly from Google) tested theories (where you have seen firsthand results) and trusted resources. At the end of the day, the best SEO approach is the one that actually works!
The issue is that there are hundreds of small factors that affect your SEO ranking. I think we all make too big of a deal about these individual factors.
Rich: Instead of everyone admitting they don’t know it all, how about it be a requirement that we all back up our SEO statements with sources. In other words, this is what I think and this is where I got the information. At the end of the day, it’s up to individuals to take that information and determine for themselves what they follow. No one has all the answers. If someone did, then Google would simply changes things (which they already do).
Personally, I think all of in the SEO industry simply perpetuates the problem. Our constant analysis of each factor diverts our attention to the real goal… Create a website that has great content that people will naturally be drawn to.
Rob: Think of backlinks as endorsements or votes. The more votes and specifically, the more credible the vote, the more your website benefits. Get lots of votes (backlinks) and you do better in the search engine rankings. But remember, if you write compelling content, people will want to naturally link to you.
Brian Brady: HAHA good analogy. The only thing you can do is develop an SEO approach based off of set truths (i.e. Information that comes directly from Google) tested theories (where you have seen firsthand results) and trusted resources. At the end of the day, the best SEO approach is the one that actually works!
Based on your advice, I'd say I was firmly entrenched in the SEO church of Mary; her results are unparalleled (for me). Active Rain results have been excellent as well.
Point of disclosure: I know very little about SEO so asking my opinion is like asking a college freshman to explain a doctoral thesis. I just listen to Mary.
Brian: That's the main take away. The best fit is the one that works for you. I think SEO advice can fall into two categoeies. The first category is the absolutes. Items you absolutly know will make or break a site. Example: Repeating a keyword 100 times in hidden text. If anyone was preaching this, I would say that they are 100% off base. The second category are the "extras" of SEO. The simple things that only have minimal impact. For example, I think META KeyWords is a great example, someone may say "you better put in meta keywords" another person may say "meta keywords are not needed" the reality is that a website can still be successful in the search engines with either approach. I think Mary is a smart business person. Do I agree with every one of her SEO approaches? No. Do I think she knows her stuff about SEO? Yes. So while we may take different approaches on the "extras", we both have the absolutes down. Where it gets interesting is that the extras while small, can add up to a big impact. But again, I think there is more than one way to get to the final destination of Goggle's Page One. After all, just look at the SEOMOZ ranking factors report. Some of the greatest minds in the SEO indutrsy all with different approaches.
Brad, aren't the links in the comments sections labeled as NO FOLLOW anyway? Wouldn't that decrease ANY chance that google would read it as link spam?
I believe this came up before and to prevent spam linkers from just commenting for the links from hi PR blogs on AR, they made the links NO FOLLOW and links IN the comments are generally not done and looked down upon if it is specifically for traffic generation (and you have the ability to remove such comments from your blog)
I couldn't understand the talking on the video, hate video. I've got to get some decent speakers.
I'm no expert. But, I understand the debate. I also disagree with McKnight.
Watching Google grow from it's infancy in the 1990s gives us old timers an advantage. The nuances of Google algorithms are fascinating to watch. The Google Gestalt is far beyond simple "keyword density". I believe that keyword density carries less and less weight. Natural language, discourse realated to the theme is what I believe Google seeks.
IMO, relying on traditional SEO techniques such as keyword density ignores the advances Google has made in incorporating linguistics in the algorithm over the past couple of years. Google's no longer that predictable.
Keyword density, IMO, is a simple theoretical construct used by Google prior to their later and more sophisticated search for "discourse".
IMO, comments contribute to discourse and, rather than diminishing the value of the post, enhance it, if they are crawled???.
Comments will blow out density but density is not that big of a deal. Links into your site is much more useful an obsession than worrying about something like density.
The bigger issue at hand is the ever changing content that is caused by comments and thusly "training" a spider to come and revisit. Thus helping with indexing newer content on the site.
Comments also benefit in the so called conversation, which is so beloved by the Social Movement online. Active Rain is definitely a social site and thus a conversation occurs.
I think what Mary might have been trying to say (based on knowing some of her work and talking with her inthe past) is that it is a waste to spend all day at active rain. It is akin to what I call Coffee Room Blogging. It is hanging out in the Break Room and chatting.
Your majority of time should be spent in areas of the web where your prospects are (if you are doing the social/comment thing ). And here is a hint, it probably isnt at a real estate website. IT is in something that is locally oriented.
Brian: We're in the same boat there, man! I attended the Broker Bryant School of SEO (Simple, Easy, Often). Making meaningful contact with our sphere and meeting people face to face can never be replaced. Social media is simply one more hook in the water. The more hooks you have, the greater your chances of catching the fish.
Hard to understand the whole video, but I get the point. I don't know enough to 100% agree or disagree. I thought it was an interesting point she made on hangin out on AR for 6 hours a day and commenting, unless you were looking for referrals from other Realtors.
I have got referrals and closed transactions here.
I have also had consumers find me here and my blog you designed.
I think her comment helps put it in perspective; but I don't think comments would hurt posts with no follow links.
It is all very confusing, I got tired of trying to follow this one and that one, so now I just listen, apply what I can and write what is in my heart and along the way my business has grown.
I am no expert but I think there are points to both sides.
1) Who really cares if you get tons of comments, especially here on activerain from fellow agents. Sure, it is nice to know that they enjoyed your post but it really IS an ego issue.
2) I have found myself on google via comments I have left on other's blogs. So I do believe if the comments are searchable then they are related to how the original post is found.
3) SEO changes often so what we are reading/learning right now will probably be WRONG in 3 months.
great post yet again. It is always hard to figure out what the big Kahuna Google is doing one day to the next! Our iste is still on page one eventhough its page rank went down for some reason.
Thank God. I am so tired of the keyword density based SEO. I think that this almost frees us to write content for the sake of the actual content... what a concept.
One thing we can be sure about with SEO is not to get to use to anything because it always seems to be changing. I remember when we were all linking to each other and that is of course now a big no, no. The comments make sense to me though. That is until Google decides different.
Thanks for your insights on this, Brad. Really like the 'absolutes and extras' - that brings an element of accountability into SEO. Great discussion in the comments, too. This should help agents see how SEO metrics can be an integral part of their overall online business model.
Brad, everyone is trying to be the Google Guru but Google is a changing target. What I can say about Mary's SEO is she leads you in the right direction on a consistant basis. Mary has done a great job with her websites. She has a lot of successes. I am not an SEO, but I believe on this issue there is no write or wrong answer.
For me personally, I do not get enough comments to approach Mary's critical mass. So, I am going to try to learn how to write high value post and get as many comments as I can.
I didn't get through all the comments on this post (too dense) but I have to agree with Jo Soss and Lenn Harley. I have always thought that blogging and the whole Web 2.0 thing was about creating community or relationships or, in the case of blogs, readership. That in turn will turn into leads which wil turn into business. Not the only way but certainly an important part of an overall business plan. Plus, it can be fun.
Isn't that why they call it social networking?
PS I've found a great referral partner on AR because of back and forth commenting and reading.
I would think that it was an honor to have many people commenting on what you have to say...not a liability. In the unlikely event that it drives fewer people there it will probably impress the reader even more by having multiple comments.
Any thoughts about commenting with CommentLuv? I would think that having outbound links included with comments would be either a great blessing or a huge curse! (I love CommentLuv and use it on any site I have my hands on!)
Brad, I am glad to finally here someone else say what I thought. I can not see how too many comments can weigh you down when I read outside blogs from high ranking google page rank bloggers and they have over 200 comments on their blogs.
I am just learning about SEO and what it means. I am not quite sure how to go about it yet. I think I need to subscribe to your blog and do a LOT of studying. What you say makes sense, but I am afraid I do not understand how to take advantage of the SEO. Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't there companies that charge big bucks to set up keywords on your website to drive traffic to your site? If this is something I can learn I would prefer to do it myself, not only save a few bucks but I could also have the control. At the same time, it is a time maintenance issue. I could better suite my business prospecting or selling real estate.
Thanks for the info...now I have some reading to do
I don't think comments have anything to do with it. The words used in the comments, of course. Now, if you intentionaly try to herd the cattle by making everyone use that special 'keyword' you're targeting, then you might be on to some new secret sauce. I think google is extremely literal - let the blog post do the work for you - the comments are for those hoping for some link juice - from you...
Brad - If you could just capture 25 percent of the people commenting on this post as a customer, you would have a great year. We have the same problem as realtors, people read, and sometimes comment, but they don't buy.
When you have a better answer for that problem, your business will explode.
On my offsite blog I moderate comments very carefully for that very reason. Spam is noise and does not help your readers or your SEO.
To respond to outgoing links from comments negatively affecting your seo; comments cannot affect your seo if the link tag included the "nofollow" attribute. If you are using Wordpress this is the default setting, so no worries there.
The bottom line is just as quality blog posts are valued so are quality comments.
Brad, I agree with you about SEO arguments...I've been in many over the years, and wasted a lot of time doing it. Within the SEO industry, nobody listens to anyone else anyhow.
That's good stuff. Always learning something new as long as you stay busy. But, yeah, keyword density seemed to be the secret to SEO heaven and now it's allure is fading. Great insight there. Need to implement that into my scheme of things.
Bottom line for a Realtor is how many of the readers actually buy houses. I have given up on SEO...I'm on the first page...actually number two for my key word target. But that doesn't necessarily covert to money in the bank.
What I am beginning to focus on is subscribers. And who better to have as a subscriber but past clients. This is my bread and butter. This is who I write for. Focus on subscribers and forget the search engines...for agents anyway. Real Estate is a local, one on one business.
This was an excellent article, Brad. Lots to think about. I thought Mary's comments intriquing but was not convinced. Guess my real focus is on teh content for readers, which brings me business weekly.
I am soooooooo glad you addressed this. I just saw that video a few days ago and it didn't jive with what I had heard from other people and it left me a little confused. Thanks for blogging about this.
I have learned so much by reading your blog and the following comments, I started out thinking I was a techie novice - I have learned so much from all of you and I am beginning to "get it!" Many thanks!
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