User32119_20_t Ted Baker
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Over the past few weeks I have watched the staff of Active Rain try to deal with a difficult and complicated issue and in the process I have seen some cherished ideas of free expression and association become more dim as conflicting interests tried to work out the tension that existed between them. 

I have communicated with Active Rain staff by phone and email and within these pages in posts and comments.  Some of my thoughts were contained in the following linked post:

http://activerain.com/blogsview/506296/A-Wake-Up-Call       (5/11/08)

So with the recent history, I was distressed to learn yesterday that Bill Burress had been terminated as a member of Active Rain for violation of AR guidelines.

The reactions of many (including me) to the news are contained in Hugh Krone's post

http://activerain.com/blogsview/519780/-A-DARK-DAY    (5/22/08)

 

I would like to compliment Bob Stewart and Rich Jacobson of the AR Community Builders staff for their open discussion in comments to the above post about the specific reason for Bill's termination.  This is controversial and their willingness to openly talk about the action and the reasons for it is a plus for the community.

their wayQuoting Bob Stewart (his comment to the Hugh Krone post 5/22/08), "The comment..."If Hillary gets the Democrat nomination, expect Blacks to vote for her.  Blacks are like lemmings in general elections.  The vast majority of Blacks vote Democrat"... which Mr. Burress made, we determined to be hate speech which is a violation of our community guidelines and could potentially be a violation of fair housing guidelines. We will not tolerate hate speech on ActiveRain.
That is the sole reason that Mr. Burress' account was terminated."

I commented, with my usual tact and sensitivity, calling their decision ludicrous  (well, we all have off days).

I do not want to rehash all of my comments from Hugh's post (linked above).  Those who are interested in this series of events should be sure and read the more than 100 comments to Hugh's post.

 

What I have to add this evening is that I asked for, and received, an opportunity to talk with the owners to get their direct input into this controversy.  Jonathan Washburn returned my call and was very open in his discussion.  While I disagree with his conclusion, I appreciate his taking the time to talk with me.

First, Jonathan indicated that the Community Builders brought the case to him for consultation before they acted so there is no question of a mixed message here.  Jonathan takes full responsibility for the decision.  In fact, their recommendation had been to suspend Burress, Jonathan's decision was to terminate him.

Jonathan  focuses on the term "lemmings" in the suspect comment telling me that he finds the comparison of a racial group to a rodent to be distasteful and hate speech in his mind.  I pointed out that there is another - more usual - meaning of "lemmings" - that being a group of followers who go along with those around them in an action suggesting a herd mentality.  And in the context of Bill's comment, it seems to me that the only logical meaning of the word deals with group behavior or followers.  Jonathan does not agree.

So I have asked Jonathan to do a search in Active Rain for the word "lemmings".  He will find ten pages of listed AR blog articles where the term is used - and I believe that the meaning will be clear that lemmings refers to followers.  He says he will do so. 

It is interesting that one of the articles using the term lemmings is written by Rich Jacobson - our Community Builder.  Any bets on whether Rich is going to be voted off the island for hate speech? Rich's article can be found at: http://activerain.com/blogsview/384425/-Just-because-You    I believe he is using the term as I describe to create an image of group action.

Jonathan spoke to me of the wikipedia definition of hate speech.  Upon reflection, I have found that if he would have read further into the page he would have found that hate speech is generally protected (absent defamation or incitement to riot) in our nation of freedom of expression and controversial political or social views receive the greatest protection of all.

There is, in my view, no rational connection between Bill's remark and the Federal Housing Laws.  The allegation is absurd.  There is no liability under law by AR for the content of our blog posts.  There is no hate speech in Bill's comment because the common usage of the word (lemmings) has no racial or hate connotation.  And further - in the context of the blog, there is no rational intent by Bill other than to say that black voters, as a group, vote overwhelmingly for the Democrats - a verifiable statement of fact. 

I realize that Jonathan is responsible for the cohesiveness of the community.  He and his partners have spent considerable time and money to create a forum for exchange of ideas and business information among real estate professionals and ancillary professional groups.  I benefit from their creation and I am grateful.  But with 89,000 members and nearly 4,000 separate special interest groups (many of which are not directly related to professional topics) it is beyond my comprehension that there is not room for every one of us and our free expression of ideas that are important to us.

sunsetI believe that a part of ActiveRain is dying today with Jonathan's decision.  I do not find his rationale for his decision to be convincing nor do I find justification for termination of the individual under discussion under the printed guidelines.  That is my opinion - but remember if Jonathan can do this to Bill Burress, he can do it to any one of us on the slightest of pretexts.  It is my view, expressed to Jonathan personally, that his decision and his oversensitivity to the use of the word lemmings says more to me about him (Jonathan) than about Bill.  I agree completely that there has been language used in many of the discussion groups that I would find to be in bad taste - and I believe there are mechanisms available to improve that situation. But this decision was based upon one comment in a single blog, according to the written statements of the AR staff responsible.  And while I appreciate Jonathan's taking the time to discuss his decision with me, I find his decision to be fascist and arbitrary.  I fear that he may do more damage to his community than Bill could ever do. 

I hope that the AR community will respond to this situation with comments or register their opinions with the owners in whatever form is appropriate.  Whether you agree with me or with Jonathan - voice your opinion now.  In this way Jonathan and his staff can take your views into consideration.  Although I disagree with Jonathan, I give him a long credit mark for taking the time to hear me out.  It would be my hope that management would take this opportunity to commute Bill's termination to a short suspension.  If many members express views - one way or the other and if Jonathan reviews the common use of the word lemmings in the many other blog posts of AR as he has agreed, he may moderate his position. 

In closing, I have suggested in comments that the persecution of several individuals over recent weeks has been the result of agenda rather than chance.  All of the AR management and staff have been patient and cordial with me, and I do not make that suggestion disrespectfully.  I have tried to view the facts as they may be available to me and infer a reasonable explanation from the events that I see.  The "conspiracy theory" approach is the result of documentation which I have included in my earlier posts.  (linked above) Specifically the written statement of intent by one of the members who opposes political or religious content in AR and the very chummy response to a post in that blog by an AR staffer.  It appears that those who have a stated biased intent of eliminating content from the community have used the complaint process in AR to achieve their goals.  That is why I have suggested that the motives of the complainers might be suspect.  That the persecution of individuals is continuing after these matters were brought to light leads me to be suspicious of the motives of the bureaucracy which seems to be supporting their cause.  So I have been open about my concerns, but have never suggested that I have been treated with anything but courtesy by all the AR gang.  I know that has not always been easy for them.

Second, it should be noted that the content of our posts has always been declared by AR to be the property of the blogger.  By the time and effort Bill Burress has invested in creating an image on Active Rain for his business in addition to the political or other content that he has contributed, he has made a significant investment in our community (Jonathan's community, if you prefer).  And by the way, Bill created the Silent Majority group and built it up with personal invitations to more than 250 members - more than two thousand posts - and a position in the top ten most active groups in Active Rain.  The arbitrary decision to terminate him on what I view as a minor pretext has economic consequences to Bill and may be actionable.  That, however, is not my decision to make or advise.  But Jonathan says that he does not have time to read the blogs to gain a context for what is being said - and I certainly understand that.  But his decision, as he explained it to me, is based upon a single word in a single sentence - which, in my view is subject to a very different interpretation than that assigned by him. 

Finally, the action taken by Active Rain against Bill Burress is not a government action.  But it is the action of a central authority over a community of 90,000 members.  I recognize the complexity and difficulty in managing such a medium, but I believe that the free and open discussion of ideas is necessary to the health of this medium.  If the membership that reads of this incident view the management action as being arbitrary and capricious, as I do, then the community is damaged and Jonathan's stated goals have been diminished despite his intentions.  The chilling effect on discussion of opinions will be felt by all of us.

I am reminded of Shakespeare's Julius Caesar - "But Brutus is an honorable man."

 
Post is included in group: Blogging Etiquette 101
Post is included in group: The Lounge at Active Rain
Post is included in group: The Ninety-ninth Percentile
Post is included in group: Silent Majority

83 Comments on A Wake up Call 2 - An open letter to Jonathan Washburn

Ted - very eloquent as always. It seems my cordial request for Bob to call me today landed on deaf ears, while you got to speak to the big cheese so well done to you (please not that the use of the word cheese was not intended to indicate anything smelly or sour and was not aimed at any particular individual. Should my use of the word cheese be taken out of context then I make this public offer to withdraw the word before I am banned from using this site).

05/22/2008 10:37 PM by Simon Conway (Picket Fence Realty)


AR is not a governmental, public launching pad.  True, the content of the posts belong to the blogger, but we are all represented by what's on this site.  AR's management has more at stake than any of us.  I don't know Bill, I don't know why he said what he did.  However, I support 100% his removal.  This is a forum for real estate professionals.  Comments like that, meant hatefully or not, have no place here.

Bill hasn't had his real estate license revoked (or mortgage license, or inspector's license).  He hasn't lost his business.  There are numerous other forums he can join, and any loyal readers of his can find him there. 

The AR management made a call that they felt protected this community the best.  Good for them.  If things are posted on AR that I don't like, I can leave just as easily as anyone else.  Had they elected to overlook or temporarily suspend Bill for his comments, I may have left.  I've left 3 other forums in the last 2 months because there was no value for me to be there.  AR has value, and apparently values as well.

No injustice was done here.  Forum moderators cut a member whom they deemed to be hurtful to the forum.  Happens every day. 

05/22/2008 10:46 PM by Matt Thomson Gig Harbor, WA Real Estate & Relocation (Assoc. Broker--Keller Williams Realty)


Thanks, Matt for your views. 

I am still missing a point or two along the way, perhaps you could tell me what you find to be offensive or unprofessional in Bill's "comment like that?"

The blog where the comment appeared (if context would be useful to you)  is located:

http://activerain.com/blogsview/498219/Would-you-vote-a

The blog is discussing voter behavior and a true and verifiable statement that an ethnic or demographic group tends to vote as a block just doesn't seem to me to be controversial.

 

05/22/2008 11:02 PM by Ted Baker (Carmody and Associates LLC)


I can't imagine a person supporting Bill's removal 100% while admiting to not know Bill personally.

The comment was taken out of contexts, but it doesn't matter as per Jonathan.

He doesn't have time to read the whole blog in question, how odd.

their way

If you take a step to remove a founder of one of the top ten most Active Rain groups,

~YOU WOULD THINK HE WOULD TAKE THE TIME OUT OF HIS BUSY DAY AND GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT~

05/22/2008 11:11 PM by Nicholas Goglucci, CRS ~ CLHMS, e-PRO ~ Re/Max Professional in South Florida (RE/Max In Motion, Inc.)


Ted stated beautifuly as usual, I comepletely agree there is an agenda

05/22/2008 11:58 PM by Hugh Krone Sussex County NJ Century 21 Realtor (Century21BillSemmens)


When people are allowed to complain to the powers that be, it leads to many abuses of the system as in this case especially.

05/23/2008 12:32 AM by Nicholas Goglucci, CRS ~ CLHMS, e-PRO ~ Re/Max Professional in South Florida (RE/Max In Motion, Inc.)


Well, it appears Jonathan chose to stand behind this rather callous decision after all. (according to his post on the subject).
Sad state of affairs, indeed.

05/23/2008 12:40 AM by Inna Hardison-ha media group Design, Printing, Web (ha media group)


Inna ~ No matter where we diagree on politics and social voews, I have a new respect for you.

I would fight for your rights to free speech as well, you are a true American.

05/23/2008 12:45 AM by Nicholas Goglucci, CRS ~ CLHMS, e-PRO ~ Re/Max Professional in South Florida (RE/Max In Motion, Inc.)


Nicholas, it is my sincere hope that you would fight for anyone's right to free speech, whether you loved them or despised them... My interpretation of American anyway.

05/23/2008 12:56 AM by Inna Hardison-ha media group Design, Printing, Web (ha media group)


Jonathan has responded in his blog, located:

http://activerain.com/blogsview/521197/Leadership-requires-decisiveness-on

 

There are a number of comments (40 at the time I write this) most of which do not agree with me. 

However, as they took the time to speak up, I will direct you all to the post so that you can consider their views as well as what you may see here. 

 

05/23/2008 12:57 AM by Ted Baker (Carmody and Associates LLC)


Inna ~ I would fight for anyone's right to free speech as well. This is America. Freedom has a price.

05/23/2008 12:58 AM by Nicholas Goglucci, CRS ~ CLHMS, e-PRO ~ Re/Max Professional in South Florida (RE/Max In Motion, Inc.)


I think that Bob Stewart's reaction was in the best interests of Active Rain as a whole.  I fail to see any rationale behind the argument that the opinions and interests of a group of 250 or so should be able to have such an effect as you wish upon a group of perhaps 90,000 Active Rain members.  Hateful is simply hateful... and such hate has no place in a forum like Active Rain.

05/23/2008 01:46 AM by Fort Worth Real Estate - - - Karen Anne Stone (RE/MAX Trinity)


Thanks, Karen for your view. 

I would ask you the same question I have asked others here - can you explain to me what is the hate in the referenced comment?   I am not talking about Bill or Jonathan - only the meaning of the words in the comment.  what word or words there convey hate to you.  Serious question, Karen - I really would like to know.

In my post I mention the fact that a search of AR for "lemmings" produces ten pages of blog article listings - including one from Rich Jacobson, himself.  Nobody thinks there is hate in any of those blogs, apparently, even though they show that the word "lemmings" seems to be fairly common in usage here at AR.  So I ask you to take a moment an let me know what I am apparently not seeing. Thanks.

 

05/23/2008 06:32 AM by Ted Baker (Carmody and Associates LLC)


Ted,

Thanks for the link.  I will go to this post now!

05/23/2008 08:40 AM by John Hersey, e-PRO Realtor (Prudential Bob Yost Homesale Services)


Ted, Personally I believe the only mistake Jonathan made was using the one "lemmings" comment as the reason for Bill's removal. Obviously it was more than just that. This situation had been brewing for weeks as you pointed out in this post:

"Over the past few weeks I have watched the staff of Active Rain try to deal with a difficult and complicated issue and in the process I have seen some cherished ideas of free expression and association become more dim as conflicting interests tried to work out the tension that existed between them." 

So, I think the first way to any kind of resolution, if there is to be one, is for folks to start being honest about what went down.  Bill is not some innocent who got banned for writing ONE offensive comment and you know that. Let's all at least get real or this entire discussion is a waste of time.

05/23/2008 08:43 AM by Bryant Tutas-Tutas Towne Realty, Inc


All I can say is that one day there will be an attorney out there just waiting to read that type od stuff and you might see more lawsuits...just like the blogger in FL that mentioned something about a developer...the developer is suing the Realtor(R) and the lost his job at his brokerage. Same thing..just a different subject. Not everyone will take this lightly. This goes for all involved. Words do bite back regardless what's considered right or wrong.

05/23/2008 08:56 AM by Neal Bloom-Realtor ® Assoc.-CRS-Weston FL (RE/MAX Premier Associates)


You are correct Neal. My attorney friend says this thing has lawsuit written all over it. Bill built up a business on here. To take it away without warning is probably going to cost some monetary damages.

05/23/2008 09:21 AM by Kevin Robinson (Crownline Home Builders)


Wow, I'm spending way too much time on this subject!  Not what I'd call dollar productive, but I've been drawn in.  After reading his post, reading the 3 or 4 response posts to his post, and reading through all the various comments from all angles on this matter, I'll say I've revised my stance.

1) I still think the management at AR can do as they please.  We are "members," but have nothing at stake and are not paying members.  It's AR's forum, we can go elsewhere if we like.

2) I still take offense at Bill's comment.  Not that he's comparing a race to lemmings, that he's able to drop a race into a bucket like that.  Had he substituted "Christians" for "Blacks," I would have been equally offended, or "Indians," "Jews", "Men," or "women." 

3) I'm not sure I see what the agenda is that so many are claiming AR has.  Have they been after Bill for a while?

4) I would now disagree with my initial thoughts that removal was the right choice.  While they may have the right to do so since it's their forum, it seems very inconsistent with any kind of past protocol.  If other offenses had been brought to their attention with no action, this seems to have skipped a few steps.  If Bill hadn't been warned previously about being offenses, then simply removing that post seems it would have been adequate, not removing the poster.

5) I still don't see this as free speech or un-American.  I've read comments about people dying everyday to protect this freedom...come on.  Do you really think our soldiers are dying in wars so that we can freely toss racial slurs around in public forums?  I'd hope that our freedom of speech goes beyond that and our purpose for democracy goes beyond that.  To be disappointed on the day you become an American citizen because of this decision?  Come on!  Jonathan Washburn moderates a blogging forum, he's not the president of the US.  This decision in no way hurts America. 

Sorry for the length of the comment...removing Bill was too hair-trigger of a decision, and probably not the right one.  But I feel we've lost some perspective on the magnitude of this. 

05/23/2008 09:32 AM by Matt Thomson Gig Harbor, WA Real Estate & Relocation (Assoc. Broker--Keller Williams Realty)


Bryant- I agree with you on your last comment that they should stop the masquerade but I don't think that management can be honest about the situation without also throwing off  probably at least a couple of dozen more members.

05/23/2008 09:34 AM by Hugh Krone Sussex County NJ Century 21 Realtor (Century21BillSemmens)


Wasn't his membership terminated because of a pattern of behavior? Not an isolated incident?

05/23/2008 09:39 AM by Maureen McCabe - Central Ohio real estate (Real Living HER)


Maureen we all know thats true But that is not what Bob posted

05/23/2008 09:44 AM by Hugh Krone Sussex County NJ Century 21 Realtor (Century21BillSemmens)


Jonathan needs to pay attention to his ruling and see that the majority of coments are against his decision.

If one person tells you your fly is open you may ignore it.

If two people tell you your fly is open you may think about looking

If 10 people tell you your fly is open , you had better zip it up

Hello, Jonathan!!! This is not the time to stand on justification. Admitting you made a decision that was not in the best interest of Active Rain is admirable and deserves respect.

THis is not the time to stand on Pride and take a fall!!!!

05/23/2008 10:23 AM by Mary Thomas PV,Torr,Beach Cities,Pas,Realtor & more* (Torrance, Palos Verdes, Redondo Beach,Pasadena,Arcada & Mon)


Hugh, One thing about being a business owner is that we are not able to provide all of the reasoning to our employees/members for the decisions we make, nor should we have to.

This entire issue should have been handled strictly between Bill and AR, period. However, having said that, I don't know that it wasn't handled that way, nor do you. I do know that I have trust in the AR guys and their decisions whether I agree with them or not. They have earned my trust over two years of managing this network to the benefit of ALL members.

We are all pieces of a bigger puzzle. The AR guys have always been very open about what their intent for this network is. And unfortunately if a piece doesn't fit then it should be removed. It is their right to do so. Just as it is our right to leave.

My comment didn't say that THEY should stop the masquerade. It said:

"Let's ALL at least get real or this entire discussion is a waste of time."

This is a two way conversation. The conversation needs to get away from "lemmings" and focus on the real issue which is a "pattern of behavior" as Maureen just pointed out.

If no one will admit that this was NOT an isolated incident then again this entire conversation is a waste of time and will lead no where productive.

As a group we need to discuss this issue honestly and get away from the "secret agenda" crap. AR certainly has an agenda but it is not secret and it has nothing to do with political and/or religious preferences. If it did I would not be a member as I AM a Christian and may or may not be a Republican. I haven't decided yet :)  

05/23/2008 10:25 AM by Bryant Tutas-Tutas Towne Realty, Inc


Mary, I think you are incorrect about the majority of comments dissagreeing with Jonathan's decision. That may be true on this post and in this group but I do not believe it to be true on AR as a whole. As much as I have been trying to avoid it I think I will write a post about this today. I have a huge readership so what I will do is place a poll in my post so we can see. I will be sure to let the Silent Majority group know when I post. I think I set the pol so folks can only vote once since this is NOT American Idol:) 

05/23/2008 10:30 AM by Bryant Tutas-Tutas Towne Realty, Inc


Ted,

I appreciate your attention to detail. I agree with you in that Activerain needs to find a solution to this crisis and get it behind us.

05/23/2008 10:40 AM by Mike Frazier, Dyersburg Tn Real Estate (Carousel Realty of Dyer County)


Mary said "Jonathan needs to pay attention to his ruling and see that the majority of coments are against his decision."

I am doing a very unscientific, poll on my blog (with the word  privilege misspelled) ...  The readers of my AR blog may be less political than most reading this post  or be more prone to being fans of Jonathan Washburn for some reason or other and I do link to Jonathan's post but here are some of the results: 

ActiveRain should have terminated the member for THAT comment (4 votes)

AcitveRain should not have terminated the member for THAT comment (1 votes)

ActiveRain members have the priviledge to participate subject to community Guidelines (9 votes)

The phrase is hate speech (5 votes)

The phrase is NOT hate speech (1 votes)

just an itty bitty sampling obviously... but it is set that you can not vote more than once, you can choose multiple answers however.

 

05/23/2008 10:50 AM by Maureen McCabe - Central Ohio real estate (Real Living HER)


Oh Maureen, what a brilliant idea. Set up a blog, don't give people all the information to make an informed decision, and ask for their vote. :-) Newpaper or Government quote comes to mind... and yep, i too would take the newspaper.

05/23/2008 10:55 AM by Inna Hardison-ha media group Design, Printing, Web (ha media group)


Bryant,

I hope you do post about this today, I would enjoy that read. 

Ted you say, "I pointed out that there is another - more usual - meaning of "lemmings" - that being a group of followers who go along with those around them in an action suggesting a herd mentality."

If you feel that this is a less offensive definition of the word, you have got to be kidding me.  If you lump any racial or ethnic group into a "herd mentality" category expect people to get ticked off.  Guess what, I am and you guessed it, I am a minority.

Normally I have a good way of brushing the ignorance off, but reading all this, "Let's stand up and defend this line of speaking" stuff is just ridiculous.  I imagine there are many forums where this kind of talk is more than acceptable.

I am glad to have associated with one where it's not regarded so highly.

What exactly are you defending?  I guess proudly too, so at least my hat is off to you in that this is a public post for all to see- including real estate buyers and sellers.

05/23/2008 11:25 AM by Rebecca Levinson, Real Estate Marketing Consultant (Real Skillz)


My congratulations to the Staff and Management of ActiveRain for the removal of Bill Burress from this forum. 

His comments were hateful and totally out-of-line.

05/23/2008 11:35 AM by Stewart Penn - Los Angeles Condo Specialist (Penn Properties)


I, for one, will miss Bill Burress and would hope that the Gods of AR would see fit to re-instate him. His political commentary was not always PC but I would never classify anything he said as racist - including the comment for which he was banned. I had made comments in that blog sting as well and it appeared that the whole drift of Tchaka's post was to elicit some racial profiling - which he certainly did.

Based on my own discourses with Bill Burress, I would hope his wit and wisdom would be available to AR readers again soon.

05/23/2008 12:00 PM by Gene Wunderlich - Selling Southwest California Homes / Temecula & Murrieta (Coldwell Banker Residential Brokerage)


Rebecca - thank you for your comment.  The original blog where the offending comment appeared discussed voter behavior.  I do not believe it is demeaning to point out that 88% of Blacks are currently supporting Senator Obama - any more than I would be intending to offend if I pointed out (as one of the commenters has) that 88% of born-again-Christians vote Republican.  A verifiable statement that is on point with the subject of the post doesn't seem to be intentionally demeaning or offensive.  I expect that if Senator Clinton gains the nomination rather than Senator Obama, an overwhelming majority of Blacks will still support the Democrat nominee. Is that an offensive observation - I hope not.

If you have followed the coverage of the current primary race for the Democrats you will know that ethnic and demographic voter blocks are very much in the news lately as very accurate predictors of each primary.  Senior voters for Clinton, younger voters for Obama, higher educatation levels for Obama.  I believe I could talk of each of these groups as voting like lemmings - meaning followers in a predictable way - without intending to be offensive of insensitive. 

Rebecca - if you have read any of my blogs you will know that I try to treat all with respect - whether I agree or disagree with them.  And I will certainly admit and agree that in the controversial topic blogs (politics or religion) I have seen language from both sides that I object to.  But the point of this post is that the specific comment which was singled out by AR management as "hate speech" and a violation of the Federal Housing Act was , in my opinion, neither.  The result, again in my opinion, is that the damage done to the community by the solution may be disproportionate and excessive when compared to the damage done by the offense alleged.

I don't think we have a right or a guarentee that we will never be offended.  That is an unreasonable burden for the culture.  If the intent of the speaker was to hurt or offend, that is a slightly different set of facts.  If, in the future, you are offended by something I say in a blog post, if you call it to my attention you will probably receive an immediate and public apology - because I would not intend to offend you and there must be some miscommunication. 

I don't want this comment to be longer than my post - I will have more to say on these subjects.  Stay tuned.  I would welcome your comments and opinions.

Film at eleven.

 

05/23/2008 12:01 PM by Ted Baker (Carmody and Associates LLC)


Ted,

I look forward to your future commentary and I am a big believer in the Benefit of the Doubt.  That being said, it is not that I am concerned about being offended by a post, certainly that has happened already this week:-)  Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but equating statistics to linguistics like "lemmings" and associating that with a race of people is inflammatory, derogatory, slanderous and a bunch of other unfavorable terms that I could fill this comment up with.

I truly wish I could have viewed the post and prior posts of Bill's in their entirety, but I don't think I have to look far to know that the remark was uncalled for.

So is it to Bill's character that is being defended, or is it to Freedom of Speech.  And if so, how far could one person go before it would be deemed acceptable by all for A/R to take action to the perpetrator?  Could someone use even more offensive words and the community leaders would still have to deem this as acceptable?

Perhaps respect is lost in the eyes of some over the action, but the reverse action would hold the same consequences.  You can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time.

05/23/2008 12:47 PM by Rebecca Levinson, Real Estate Marketing Consultant (Real Skillz)


Wise words, Rebecca.  I appreciate your candor and we may not be able to resolve this one between us.  If the objection is the choice of the word "lemmings" - I would have apologized for the choice of words.  But the fact is that groups of voters are acting in a manner that allows them to be legitimately grouped by characteristics that are recognizable.  Some are cultural, some are racial.  There is no question that hispanics are supporting Senator Clinton while Blacks are supporting Senator Obama.  Seniors are supporting Senator Clinton - and I haven't found anybody that is voting for Senator McCain.  I haven't heard of voting preference of left versus right handers yet - but I am sure somebody is working on it. 

I don't know how to get past this point with you.  It is not that I do not hear you say you are offended - it is that I don't see any intent in this particular case by the author to offend you or anybody else.  Rush Limbaugh listeners are called ditto-heads because they follow him as a group.  They could just as easily be called Limbaugh lemmings in the same context.  The Republican symbol is the elephant.  At my size, I might prefer they had picked something more stylish (with me swimmers build and Shamu come together in the same sentence).  And I am sure that there are some Democrats that might not like the donkey.  But the use of any of these terms shouldn't be a cause of pain or offense if they are legitimately tied to the subject matter.

There is a difference between race related speech and racist speech.  Where race is a legitimate part of the conversation, there has to be a way to communicate without violating the sensitivities of the group you are talking to or the group you are talking about.  I am, among other things. a college teacher.  In a recent class I was able to discuss a number of racially charged issues with a class that included a number of racial groups without (I hope) offending anyone or creating a hostile environment for any of the students by valuing the input and opinions of each and every student in the class.  Maybe if we work at it a while, I will be able to speak with you without giving unintended offense. 

I am sure that you read in my post that a search of AR for "lemmings" produces ten pages of referenced articles within the pages of AR.  (ironically including one written by Rich Jacobson) I think you will find if you review a couple of thise posts that the term is widely used to describe behavior and not to ascribe any other characteristic.

Best I can do, Rebecca

05/23/2008 01:23 PM by Ted Baker (Carmody and Associates LLC)


Why have we gotten so thinned skinned as a Nation? We are all so fired up about getting our feelings hurt that we are missing the BIG PICTURE!

Bill's comments were in no way racist or deragatory! PLAIN & SIMPLE! He was just making a point and using PUBLIC KNOWLEGE statistics to make a point! HE did not come up with the numbers and or the facts.

AR's censorship of one Member's blog is unacceptable. IF they are going to "Play that game", they had better start doing word or phrase searches hourly! They be surprised  at what they would find.

Terminating Bill's membership was just uncalled for. If they is a poll or petition that I can sign to get him back and let AR know that I think its wrong, someone please tell me. THIS WHITE, SILENT MAJORITY, REPBULICAN, SOUTHERN BAPTIST CHRISTIAN, NRA CARD CARRYING,  MISSISSPPI/TEXAN, CHOCTAW WOMAN REALTOR WANTS to know where to sign!

IF I'm kicked out of here, ya'll take care and keep in touch.

05/23/2008 01:53 PM by Kathy Fisher, Realtor® Wise County Texas (Parker Properties)


I agree with Broker Bryant.  Bill's friends need to get real. 

If Bill was on the BOD of the local AOR and he made a comment like this in the media, he would have been asked to resign his position immediately.  None of you apologists would be willing to put Bill's quote on your own real estate websites, so why should we have to suffer it here at ActiveRain?

05/23/2008 02:11 PM by Frank Jewett (tech4REpros)


Frank,

Not everyone who disagrees with AR's decision is a 'friend' of Bill.  In fact, several folks who disagree with Bill on many points and think that some of his comments are on the edge also disagree with this action by AR. (I am one of those.)

As for what anyone might allow on their own website, I would ask what the relevance might be.  AR allows many differing viewpoints on a variety of topics.  They have allowed and continue to allow many comments that are quite biting and even hateful. 

Most people are able to discuss 'hot topics' without resorting to personal attacks, ugly language and hateful speech but there are more than a few who just can't seem to hold their tongues (keyboards).  The issue, it seems to me, is why some are allowed to get away with it while others are not.

One person actually called 3 members of the AR community 'lemmings'.  She did not use it in a metaphorical way but actually directed it at these 3 members.  Why would that be allowed while Bill's comment got him banned?

There is at least the 'appearance' of a double standard.

05/23/2008 02:32 PM by Tim and Susan Fennell (REALTY WORLD Executive Group)


Two wrongs don't make a right.  Report the other person, but please don't use the other person to try to excuse what Bill wrote.  There is no excuse for what Bill wrote, which is why none of you would post his comment, even quoted to him, on your personal real estate site.  You know he was wrong.

05/23/2008 02:45 PM by Frank Jewett (tech4REpros)


Frank,

I must not have been as clear as I would have liked.  I was in NO WAY excusing anything Bill has written... I don't even believe that I hold any moral position that would give me the authority to do so.

Would I post what he wrote on my own website.  No.  But I just looked at your blogs and there are numerous things you have written that I wouldn't want on my site either - my point is that this is not a reason to ban someone from posting their opinions.

I agree with you that 2 wrongs do not make a right.  Again, I don't see the relevance.  There are MANY more than 2 wrongs among the thousands and thousands of posts on AR.  As far as 'reporting' anyone for anything... just not my style.

I can absolutely guaranty you that I hold many views that Bill and others in the Silent Majority Group would abhor.  It seems that some folks think that everyone in the Silent Majority holds the same religious and political positions with one another.  That perception is not accurate, I assure you.  But just because we disagree on issues does not negate my belief that they are entitled to their opinions and to voice those opinions (as far as is legally acceptable, of course).

 

05/23/2008 03:01 PM by Tim and Susan Fennell (REALTY WORLD Executive Group)


Frank:

What specifically are you saying was wrong with Bill's comment?  I don't understand your logic.  Bill stated a statistic and characterized it by using lemmings metaphorically as a herd mentality. You have to admit, when 88% or 90% of any group of people vote a certain way, that is a classic characterization.  Is it offensive when statistics are cited or is what the statistics point to offensive?

Are you saying because someone found his remark offensive to them that justifys his termination?  I hope not.  Maybe someone finds your comments to be offensive.  Would that justify your termination?  Certainly not.

05/23/2008 03:43 PM by Mike Postell (Emery Financial Services)


If I've said it once, now I've said it three times:

Wow, I'm worn out. I don't like censorship of any kind, anywhere, but this is not my site. I say what I want to say, even if it goes against the grain sometimes. There are folks here that agree with me and there are folks who avoid my posts altogether. Fine.

Now since the AR gods have asked us to mostly keep this site related to real estate, let me tell you about a beautiful 6.36 acre parcel I have for sale in the Asheville, NC area. Actually it is in Leicester inside Buncombe County, but close to Madison County. It sits next to a 3600 acre parcel that is state owned and is now conservation and game land. The views are terrific with mostly open fields, but some very pretty woods also. For those of you that don't want to be burdened by any religious influences, there is room to roam without bumping into your neighbors and you can have jackasses or horses or other animals. The utilities are already there and are underground. It can be purchased for $216,000 and there is a post at my blog giving you more details if you like.

And to Rich, I made a comment on one of Ted's posts where I made the statement that you had been snide in some of your comments to and about others, so maybe there are others that have taken some of your recent opinions to be that way. Perhaps you could revisit some of your comments to reflect.

It is ultimately the owners/managers/founders of AR to decide what content they want, but the cat has been let out of the bag. There are far too many people on here that appreciate all the variety that it offers, and to boot someone off for what only a few feel is offensive does not do us justice. And by the way, the consumer/public is pretty smart. They can read between the lines, just like we do.

05/23/2008 04:04 PM by Don Davies, GRI Innovation In Real Estate Since 1984 (Don Davies Real Estate/REALSEARCH/Asheville, NC)


What specifically are you saying was wrong with Bill's comment?  I don't understand your logic.

Mike, using a broad brush like lemmings to paint an entire race or religion is unacceptable, as you well know.  There should be no debate about Bill's dismissal.  He crossed a bright line and none of the people arguing for his return are willing to cross it with him, so obviously they recognize that his remark was inappropriate even if they choose to create distractions by shifting the focus to others.

This is not a censorship issue.  This is not an "if you don't like it, don't read it" issue.  This is a terms of service and community guidelines issue.  We all agreed to abide by them when we joined.

And to Rich, I made a comment on one of Ted's posts where I made the statement that you had been snide in some of your comments to and about others, so maybe there are others that have taken some of your recent opinions to be that way. Perhaps you could revisit some of your comments to reflect.

Don, you're making the argument for why moderators should be anonymous.  When their identities are known in the community, any dispute they are involved in will invite personal attacks on their character.  For the record, Jonathan Washburn wrote "I asked Bob to remove the member from the network", so if you're going to point fingers, you can start at the top with Jonathan, in his blog.

05/23/2008 05:09 PM by Frank Jewett (tech4REpros)


Frank - Your earlier comment "None of you apologists would be willing to put Bill's quote on your own real estate websites, so why should we have to suffer it here at ActiveRain?" sums up the hypocrisy of Bill's friend and supporters.

05/23/2008 11:58 PM by Stewart Penn - Los Angeles Condo Specialist (Penn Properties)


Stewart ~ I really think you are crossing the line calling supporters of Bill hyocrites. You should be so lucky to have friends who love and support you. You have need of a little compassion with your big mouth.

05/24/2008 12:03 AM by Nicholas Goglucci, CRS ~ CLHMS, e-PRO ~ Re/Max Professional in South Florida (RE/Max In Motion, Inc.)


Nicholas  - Fortunately I do have friends and associates who love, support and respect me.

You speak of compassion, yet in your posts you display little, if any. As for my "big mouth" as you call it, I admit I do have strong opinions and ideas, but these are formed on fact, research, empathy and understanding.

05/24/2008 12:10 AM by Stewart Penn - Los Angeles Condo Specialist (Penn Properties)


Stewart ~ You only understand and have empathy for your liberal agenda. You show little compassion for anyone who has beliefs contrary to yours, yet you call Bill hateful and totally out of line.

When you parade the California Supreme Court over riding the will of the people you offend the entire state of California.

But you have a right to your opinion, as also Bill Burress.

But you were not removed.

05/24/2008 12:19 AM by Nicholas Goglucci, CRS ~ CLHMS, e-PRO ~ Re/Max Professional in South Florida (RE/Max In Motion, Inc.)


Ted - This is a blog site. It seems that many lose sight of that fact. I have just heard of the incident. After reading several blogs regarding the matter, another of the bairds quotes comes to mind. "methinks he protest too much".

I have no doubt the Bill will survive. I have no doubt his angst ridden friends will survive. I belief that Jonathan took the action he did because in his mind, his job was to ensure that AR survives. It is his site, and it is his call.

05/24/2008 12:28 AM by John MacArthur The MacArthur Group (Long and Foster Real Estate, Inc.)


John ~ That is where you are wrong. This is a Real Estate Network made up of professionals, without us there would be no site. Period.

05/24/2008 12:30 AM by Nicholas Goglucci, CRS ~ CLHMS, e-PRO ~ Re/Max Professional in South Florida (RE/Max In Motion, Inc.)


Nicholas - You and I have stated our different points of view and our fellow real estate agents and associates can read and interpret our perspectives. I believe the debate between us should now be closed. 

05/24/2008 01:18 AM by Stewart Penn - Los Angeles Condo Specialist (Penn Properties)


Nicholas - I have seen your comments often. I haven't understood the angst they cause. Now I see the light. You comment without reading or possibly comprehending what you are commenting on.

"That is where you are wrong. This is a Real Estate Network made up of professionals, without us there would be no site. Period"

  1. How do you interpert what I said to infer what you replied? It is difficult to decipher what you are talking about.
  2. Where do I indicate that it is a site made of up of anything?
  3. How much to you understand of basic english?

If the url exists, the site will be available. We are the traffic.

Professionals? That is subjective at best.

 

05/24/2008 06:08 AM by John MacArthur The MacArthur Group (Long and Foster Real Estate, Inc.)


Ted - This looks like it is now a dead issue. I am beginning to believe the use of this forum for real estate business is the best route.    

05/24/2008 09:42 AM by Gary Waters -Real estate agent Viera Suntree Melbourne and Rockledge FL (Century 21 Baytree Realty www.moving2brevard.com)


Ted - I really don't want to enter a public debate about whether or not this was the correct action, so I will refrain from touching this issue.  However, I do find it interesting that several people mentioned that Bill founded "one of the Top Ten Most Active Groups on AR".  Ironically, Silent Majority was only catapulted into the top ten after Bill was removed from ActiveRain, because of the flurry of activity on posts like this one.  It's sort of like when a singer dies, and suddenly their music starts selling at a record pace.  I am not saying that the group wasn't active already, but I don't think it ever broke into the top ten before this week, so it strikes me as interesting. 

There are clearly some passionate folks in the group, and although I am a Christian and generally conservative in my views, I never joined because I don't honestly enjoy arguing.  Just a different perspective - have a great weekend!

05/24/2008 09:58 AM by Jason Crouch, Broker - Austin Texas Real Estate (Austin Texas Homes, LLC)


Actually Jason that is not correct. Silent Majority made the tp ten before Bill was banned. In fact Bill was the one who featured the post containing the announcement from nick on 5/18. 

05/24/2008 10:13 AM by Simon Conway (Picket Fence Realty)


Simon - Fair enough.  If it cracked the top ten that particular day, I must have missed that.  I know that it was back out of the top ten, then it re-entered.  No big deal - I actively track this (more out of curiosity than anything else), and I had never seen it make the list before this past week, although I guess 5/18 was this past week.

05/24/2008 10:17 AM by Jason Crouch, Broker - Austin Texas Real Estate (Austin Texas Homes, LLC)


Jason - confusion is a sign that you are getting to the middle my friend. This happens when you have a bunch of kids who finally realize they know better than you do. Your youngest one clearly fits into this category as she clearly has daddy doing anything she wants! *lol* - welcome to the club. As for the top ten - I didn't know there was one until a few days ago when i saw the announcement. As I understand it, the bottom few of the top ten go in and out of it like yoyos, but Silent Majority cracked it for the first time this week.

http://www.activerain.com/blogsview/515350/CONGRATULATIONS-SILENT-MAJORITY

 

05/24/2008 10:32 AM by Simon Conway (Picket Fence Realty)


You are exactly right, Simon.  The top several groups stay pretty much in the same order, then the groups from about 7 or 8 through 20 bounce around depending on which popular posts are in there.