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Forgiveness

One of the wonderful traits of Americans (and to some extent humanity as a whole) is our ability to forgive those who transgress. How many entertainers have screwed up and apologized? We forgive them. How many politicians? We forgive them. Evangelicals mess up and are forgiven. We as a people understand that we aren't without flaw. If one errs, apologizes and asks for a do-over, we often allow it. That's truly a great thing.

It came as a big surprise to me the other day when I read a comment by AR member Jason Sardi in which he acknowledged he got booted off AR earlier. I have read a number of his blogs on mortgages and scenarios and the guy is on top of his game, I really like the way he thinks. Apparently he pulled a stunt that didn't go as he planned and he was booted. So what did Jason do? He apologized to those involved and wrote a humbling letter to AR, who in turn did what we like to do: they forgave him. His membership was reinstated. In the aftermath of Bill Burress being terminated from AR, another member Hugh Krone wrote a blog that was not the kindest. The next day he contacted AR directly to apologize for his tone and wrote a public one as well. Without a doubt both of these gentlemen exhibited class through their actions after the initial transgressions.

This brings me forward to the purpose of this post. Upon the termination of Bill Burress a number of friends and fans have rallied to have him reinstated on AR. That is a sign of loyalty and it's good to have friends willing to stick up for you. But people are looking for forgiveness without acknowledgment of error. Forgiveness follows apology and there hasn't even been anyone willing to stand up and say he was wrong. I commented in A DARK DAY ON ACTIVE RAIN that: What I would like to see is a friend/fan/supporter of Bill actually stand up and say that his comment was inappropriate or distasteful - because it was.

People do or say things that we shouldn't have, we all do. What happens afterwards shows one's character. A person with strong character will call it out for what it is. But no one stood up. Instead we've endured 4 days of how great he is, how unfair AR is, how innocuous the comment was, etc, etc. The only thing we haven't received is an apology. It doesn't matter whether or not he thinks it's offensive, the fact is it IS - and many people have said it is. "I've heard worse on AR and those people didn't get terminated"......if it's offensive, it's offensive, case closed. That's like being stopped for doing 85 in a 40 and your defense is, "But I saw someone else going 90". One friend of his commented that he was not warned and that if he had been, he would have removed the comment. That's missing the point - if it was just about removing the comment, I would have done so myself. No, it's about acknowledgement that such a comment is hateful (or at least distasteful). Others have said he's just direct; 'direct' is not defined as 'offensive' so that doesn't quite fly either.

I wanted to see one person say that the comments were offensive and my intent was to contact AR directly to argue for his reinstatement. At the time I did not know he'd had numerous warnings, I thought it was based simply on his comment on my blog. While highly inappropriate, I did not deem it enough to terminate his account so I was willing to go to bat for him. Yes, the Bill Burress a few claim is not hateful and who founded Silent Majority which alludes to standing for freedom of speech (though he routinely calls gays 'sodomites' and changed settings on SM to prevent me and a few others from posting in the group). But my incentive to ask a favor on his behalf is lessened when his thoughtless actions are deemed acceptable and any chance supporters had with AR is pretty much gone now. Instead of appropriate conflict resolution a course of indignance was charted. We are a very forgiving people, but alas, the road to forgiveness is rarely traversed without apology.

Posted by Tchaka Owen on 05/27/2008 12:55 AM

Comments (72)

Post is included in group: Silent Majority
Post is included in group: Dissent
Post is included in group: Wrong Right Turn
Post is included in group: Proud to be a Liberal

72 Comments on Forgiveness

MAY

2008

Hi Tchaka...well said.

So I'm not sure I pass the "friend saying it was distasteful" test, but my comments on Mary's recent post might cut it.

Owning up to mistakes and saying you're sorry goes a long way towards fixing things. I read somewhere that there are three steps in a true apology. First, admit you were wrong. Then say you were sorry. And then -- and this is the step most of us miss -- ask, "What can I do to make it better?"

PS Hi, Joey! GO TO BED. (I'm following Joey around this morning.)

Tchaka- I'm very proud of you, It must have taken alot to write this with a straight face, you should really be a politcian

I think that one of the problems is that most of us are not sure that what he said was that bad. I don't like racist type talk but I just can't see it with this one. I personally am arguing a point rather than for Bill. I don't know the man but I have compiled a list of comments made against other groups that to me are much worse. I still feel that someone was having a "sensitive" day on this one.

Tchaka ~ I try to avoid commenting on your posts because of obvious reason. But this one I will comment on because you are somewhat of a hypocrite.

Ted Baker, who has a better leagal mind than probably all of Active Rain members put together, he is a law Professor, has repeated stated it was not hated speech, has not violated the Fair Housing laws whatsoever.

While I would not have used the word "lemmings" in any of my comments, I do not feel the comment was calling out any as being a small rodent like animal, it was address the herd like mentality that a certain group has, as well as many other groups have. Blindly voting for someone just because he or she is of a certain political party.

I am not speaking for Bill Burress, but he was upset that many believed he meant that.

Before he could apologize he was booted off. I am sure Bill would do anything he can to settle the matter. He wants to set the record straight, apologize if he offended anyone, and I have spoken to him on this subject.

I would that Bob Stewart, Rich Jacobson and Jonathan Washburn call Bill Burress, get his take on this, apologize, and get this matter corrected.

He is a great human being, with feelings and a great heart.

"Tchaka- I'm very proud of you, It must have taken alot to write this with a straight face, you should really be a politcian"

Hugh - I kind of feel the same way about your comment to Tchaka my friend. This is the last time I will comment on this subject, as it has taken up far too much of this Real Estate Communities time to begin with.

The whole purpose for me addressing my own banishment is in hopes that Bill & his supporters on here would perhaps step up to the plate. You see, my post (back in the day) wasn't inflammatory and really was only a self-deprecating tasteless joke. Still, it was against AR guidelines. I publicly apologized and said that I would support whatever decision AR was to make.

There were also folks from AR & Co-workers who came out and wrote posts pushing to let me back in and what not, I kindly told those folks to Stop ... Let AR do what they deem is right.

My point is not to tell Bill or you folks on how to handle it per se, but I wanted you to know that I was in a similiar position. It would be nice to see some acceptance of blame on Bill's behalf. I'm sure he could have issued an apology right away to one his supporters who could have posted it on his behalf. He was warned, he even wrote an inflammatory post on a co-worker of mine that was eventually deleted awhile back, this didn't totally come out of left field folks. As I've stated, if this was my forum ... I would not have made the same decision, or at least handled it a bit differently. But it's not my forum ... it's not yours ... it's ours, yet subject to AR Guidelines and their interpretation of those guidelines.

I know I will, am pretty sure AR will, and hope you folks will move forward to bigger and better things.

Tchaka,

You made a statement that I would like for you to clarify for us Bill supporters here:

At the time I did not know he'd had numerous warnings

Please help me understand this statement!

You talk about vengance. Is vengance going to bring your Bill back to you or my Tchaka to me? I forgo the vengance of my son. But my youngest son had to leave this country because of this Lemmings business. So now I have to make arraingments to bring him back safely cleared of all these false charges. But I'm a supersticious man. And if some unlucky accident should befall him, if he should be shot in the head by a police officer, or if he should hang himself in his jail cell, or if he's struck by a bolt of lightening, then I'm going to blame some of the people in this room and that, I do not forgive. But, that aside, let say that I swear, on the souls of my grandchildren, that I will not be the one to break the peace we have made here today! I will never refer to certain ethnic groups as any sort of mammals.

Tchaka - there are probably any number of comments that have been made by Bill or others for which I would apoligize. You know that I have apologized to you for things that I have said in the past.

But I continue to be genuinely amazed at the reaction of some (including you) to the particular statement that we have discussed. What Bill said, which I think is accurate, is that despite the fact that 92% of Blacks voted for Senator Obama instead of Senator Clinton in the primaries - if Clinton were the nominee of the party, an overwhelming percentage who did not vote for Clinton in the primary would vote for her in the general election - because the very large percentage of the Black vote tends to go to the Democrat in the Presidential race.

They do not vote for the Democrat because they are Black - it is not a trait - but the group shares a common interest or experience or priority of values or issues or motivations that can be identified and tracked by voter statistics and polls. That identification or grouping by ethnic or demographic categories is important to candidates who want to target a message or to news media who want to explain what is happening or to advertisers who are trying to sell someone something. I do not find the process or the reporting of the results to be demeaning or objectionable - any more than I would object to the suggestion that Christians tend to oppose abortion.

I feel that when you said to Bill in a comment that you were offended by his remark, it would have been appropriate for him to apologize and explain his intent - and perhaps none of us would be here in this conversation. But I do feel that there is a difference between race related speech and racist speech. And the fact that you are sensitive to an issue does not mean that he intended to be offensive - which would be a critical element in a discussion of hate speech. You can offend someone without any intent to do so, as you and I have discussed - but I do not think you can be hateful or spew hate speech without specific intent. There is a huge difference.

You raise another issue in your post, Tchaka. That is the exclusion of a person from posting in a group. I do not accept that proceedure as acceptable or appropriate. If a particular post or comment is viewed as inappropriate by the moderators, they have the tools to delete the post or comment. This makes sense and would prevent some of these situations from becoming a problem for AR corporate staff if we would police ourselves in the groups. But to prevent a person from posting to a group is as much of an infringment of your free expression as termination is an infringment of Bill's. That was a poor decision, in my view, and it has been corrected in your case (and hopefully any others in the silent majority group) with my apology. I have had less success in getting Bill's case modified.

As I have said elsewhere, this community cannot survive without the professional respect of each and every member for every other member. Agreement is not required on controversial issues, but civility should always be required. By our membership in this community and our contributions to our professions, we have all earned that right to be treated as respected and valued members.

Israel - thank you, Godfather

Tchaka,

We did not call on him to apologize because we did not interpret the comment the same way that you did.

Take for example...the other day...someone on I**a's blog quoted one of my blogs and said I needed to stop bi**hing. This is a pet peeve of mine when men refer to women as bi**hes or their speech as bit**ing. I am not a dog. I am not a female dog. What comes out of my mouth does not resemble a dog barking. So for him to say that to me (if he wasn't saying it to me then why reference the exact title of my blog?) is insulting. I would think that under fair housing rules and AR's rules it would be a slur against my gender. I**a came to his defense.

I find that to be ironic.

I didn't flag him.

I didn't complain.

It won't change that I think he's a chauvanist.

It won't change that I added that name to my "do not refer" excel spreadsheet because he doesn't think highly of women from his comment and I wouldn't put a woman in the position of having to deal with a man that doesn't respect her.

I tried to make light of it to give him a chance to clarify or retract. The blog owner defended him and accused me of starting an argument.

This is a prime example of the problem here. It's like a parent with a bratty kid who defends everything that kid does but when the neighbor's kid does something she finds offensive she calls the cops.

It's the pot calling the kettle black in a lot of instances on AR.

"you scratched my car...oh yeah, well you put your golf club through my windshield!"

The question is....when will both sides respect the other? You don't have to agree with the comments on here.....you simply have to respect the others' right to have an opinion and to their right to free speech even when it is insulting on a personal level like I did with the chauvanistic guy.

I have never and will never stifle anyone's right to say whatever stupid thing comes into their brains.

I will however flag something that is pornographic in nature. That is the one thing that I won't tolerate on a professional site.

The rest is going to be filed under "sticks and stones"

If you personally were insulted by Bill's comment then I am sorry. Let me give you a little advice as someone whose experience much prejudice.....forget about it. It's not worth worrying over.

To Cheri... First, I speak with a bit of authority on your reference to Jason Sardi. Why? Because I know him very well, I am about to marry him. As a strident feminist, would I marry a chauvenist? Hell NO!!

For the record: I have never been treated more like a lady, with more respect or love by any man in my entire life than the way Jason has treated me.

I am aghast at the fact that you are going off on him in your above comment and you haven't the first idea of who he is or what he's about. You CHOSE to misinterpret his comment on Inna's post. Maybe you just felt like bitching. He was talking about everyone here - male and female. Then you pretend you are kidding when you clearly were not... making you a fake, a fraud and a liar. Which is far worse than someone merely telling one to stop bitching.

Add me to your spreadsheet. I couldn't be there in any better company!!!

Tchaka - just one quick thing. It is simply untrue to say that Bill has received numerous warnings. I just wanted to set the record straight.

Cheri: First, i didn't realize my name came with asterisks... Neat addition there. I find it strange stumbling on my name encoded... and prefer it when sources are actually cited - you know, a journalist in me.

Secondly, without sounding too harsh, I think you are insane if you seriously took Jason's comment as being at all about you. I think you are more insane for harping on it in that way on an unrelated blog. You just called someone you have never actually spoken to a chauvenist on a professional network... It would have been better for your reputation on this forum if the nasty argumentative comment you left on my blog was indeed a joke.

BTW: I am not aware of anyone else having a 'will not refer to directory' - must be very useful, and by all means, can I please be added to those fine people in your I am sure very long list?

Well said, Tchaka. If I said something that I didn't intend to be offensive or racist and found out it was taken that way, I would definitely apologize. It's enough. Bill (according to AR officials) had been warned many times, did not control his behavior, and finally was removed. We need to let it go. He is not a martyr. This is not because he's a Christian. This is because he refused to discontinue his inappropriate comments in a public forum.

Chris - there may have been multiple complaints - I would not know about that. But it is my understanding that Bill received one warning - and no suspension - despite the fact that the terms and conditions and guidelines specify a procedure of progressive sanctions - warning, then suspension, then termination.

I am on the list of " Coolest Realtors Of All Time " if you need to find me.

Israel - yep, I know:-)

Wow....Just stumbled upon this post...promised myself to comment no further on this issue...however, take exception to Cheri's comment. I read Inna's post and the comment you are referring to and you must have some ego if you felt it was directed to you. I have spoken with Mr. Sardi many times and have called on him for mortgage advice. He is always amazingly giving of his time and energy. I have also have the distinct pleasure of meeting him in person, and he is a true gentlemen!

Cheri, please also add me to your excel spread sheet of members not to refer to! I don't believe I could work with someone like you with an ego the size of Texas.

Ted: That procedure/process was just included into the guidelines over the weekend. Obviously, it was incorporated to be provide consistency, documentation, and accountability in future instances.

THanks Rich - I hope your not telling me there was no procedure before... Let's take this one off line - I will talk with you and Bob tomorrow. Feel free to email me with a convenient time for you for me to call.

Thanks Rich ~ I know Active Rain is working on resolving this whole mess. I am sure Bill Burress will do whatever it takes to convey his own feelings and beliefs to set the record straight himself.

Simon,

Let Tchaka set the record straight. Tchaka, I am still waiting for your reply!

Tckaka, I've been out of town for a few days and must say I totally agree with you! I've been reading the book The New Earth, and it really is a life changing book. In it it states that the "ego" in us thinks we are right and the other person is wrong. Exactly what has happened in the dissent group. Bill was totally out of line with his comment, and comments such as those should not be tolerated. As you said, all of his allies defended him, but not one admited he crossed the line. As a result of my recent book reading I will post my last blog on the Dissent group and then remove myself. The group has been toxic, to me, to you, and to all of us who are free thinking individuals.

MAY

2008

Well said Terry, Actually I have been off this site because of the Toxicity... Who needs it, negativity breeds negativity. "What you Focus on Expands" I'm into selling Real Estate and Making a Living. Also check out the Book Harmonic Wealth by James Arthur Ray

Mike ~ See how long you await a reply from Tchaka. The truth will set you free. Problem is he doesn't want to know the truth. hE ONLY WANTS YOU TO KNOW WHAT HE THINKS. and that is not too interesting.

How about it Tchaka? Cat got your tongue?

Mike - Email me at jsardi@fcegi.com ... I think I can help you understand about the 'warnings' issue.

Jason - can you help me understand? Because it says here there were warnings - there were not. What's to understand?

Simon - Email me, I really can't go into it here ....

Sorry it's taken me a while to get back, I've had internet issues with Hellsouth and hopefully it's all been squared away now.

Joey - I read your comment on Mary's blog and it passes the test without any doubt. Your words were eloquent, gentle and thoughtful - we need more people like you. I know I can learn a lesson from the tone of your comment. Thank you.

Sarah - My sentiments exactly.

Hugh - Thank you for the kinds words.

Kevin - I don't think what Bill said was the worst thing, but it was yet another on top of prior ones.

Nicholas - Yes, you do not comment on my posts, however you consistently follow my comments with snide ones (including later in this post) which is why I have ignored everything you've written for the past 2 months or so. Since you did take the time to write, I will address your comment. I'll start by saying I have no idea why you might think I'm a hypocrite, I don't believe I've said anything counter to my beliefs. With all due respect to Ted, who certainly has earned it, I don't believe this has to do with Fair Housing laws. Although AR is geared primarily towards real estate, it has allowed a variety of Groups which I think are for the purpose of having members get to know each other better and to communicate regularly. I'm convinced a strong legal challenge can be made if anyone tried to pull the Fair Housing one on us. I am not a scholar of what legally constitutes hate speech and I would gladly defer to Ted on that. As I've stated before, what Bill said isn't the worst, I've heard much worse, but what everyone else here has to understand is that we're not bound only by federal laws, we're bound by AR "laws".

You say Bill wants to apologize "if he offended anyone". I would expect him (and everyone else here) to know that he DID offend people. That's not anything that's up for debate. I am in agreement with you that it would have been good for Bob, Rich and Jonathan to have a chat with Bill (though I think it's Bill who would be doing the apologizing) and see how things could have been resolved. But as I mentioned in my post, that's what needed to be done when this first blew up. With the firestorm that ensued, I'm have a feeling that opportunity is gone.

Mike (and Simon) - My comment was based on the following post by the Rainmaker.

Jason - Thank you for commenting on here and I am surely glad you're still a part of AR. I also agree with you that we need to spend more time on real estate. And what a woman you have stepping up to defend you!!

Cheri - You wrote, "You don't have to agree with the comments on here.....you simply have to respect the others' right to have an opinion and to their right to free speech even when it is insulting on a personal level like I did with the chauvanistic guy". Actually, you don't have to respect it on AR if it's insulting on a personal level. Quite frankly, I wasn't really all that bothered by the comment because I'm like teflon. But not everyone is and people have a right to complain about it.

Jennifer - Way to defend your man! Remind me never to get into the ring with you. :-)

Ted - As usual, you put together a very well thought out comment. I guess I shouldn't be surprised anymore, this the norm for you! I do understand the direction that Bill was going with his comment and he was given the opportunity to say "mulligan" when I informed him it was distasteful. Instead he chose to go on the attack. Although I wasn't really offended, yes I agree with you that that would have been the perfect time to apologize and explain. Even if he did a redirect instead of apology it could have worked, ie, "Perhaps I should have termed it differently, what I meant by that comment is that in general, blacks tend to vote Dem blah blah blah..." Simple. Although your character was never in question, I accept your apology on behalf of all those who were offended and I thank you.

You wrote: As I have said elsewhere, this community cannot survive without the professional respect of each and every member for every other member. Agreement is not required on controversial issues, but civility should always be required. By our membership in this community and our contributions to our professions, we have all earned that right to be treated as respected and valued members. I couldn't have said this any better!! I may use that (with your permission).

Israel - Thanks for the directions, if ever we lose touch I know exactly where to look!

Tchaka ~ That is the first thing that I do agree with you on in two months.

I do not speak for Bill but he needs to get the word out in letting all know what he meant by the comment that was taken totally out of context.

This did not constitute hate speech, break any fair housing laws and only repeated what the "mainstream" media has quoted for many years now.

But I disagree with you in my hopes that the opportunity is not gone.

It has only just begun.

MAY

2008

Tchaka and Jason - I note that Bill has posted (through Nick) an apology tonight.

Yes, please all go and read what the man really meant, not what your pre concieved ideas invented or assumed.

Tchaka you are going to PC on this whole thing. It looks like political correctness has won again.

Tchaka, apparently this "slip of the tongue" was not Bill's first. Check out Lemmingsgate Day 6. Someone there posted the link to a real estate periodical that lays out some of what came out of Bill's mouth, picture included. And it wasn't very pretty. You and I know exactly what he meant with his lemmings comment. It is neither "invented" nor "assumed" by either of us.

MAY

2008

Terry - I hope all readers will go to the outside blog and read the Barry Cunningham piece. I thought it was a sensational hatchet job - but you all need to form your own opinions.

Most of the graphics were not from Bill's comments - to include the inflammatory (pun intended) burning cross.

I do not think that the comment to Tchaka's post which was the sole basis for Bill's removal according to AR management was a slip of the tongue - but I believe it certainly had unintended conseqeuences and took on a life of its own.

The quotation from a black celebrity in Bill's apology/explanation letter in which quote the same wording with the same meaning is used should, at a minimum, prove to all that reasonable people can disagree about the meaning of Bill's words.

Well Ted, we all know that if you're black its acceptable to make fun of or degrade your own race. Its another to do so if you are not black. Using that as an argument does not wash with me. I fully understood what Bill was saying, slip of the tongue or not. It was the intent of the word, not necessarily the word. And yes I know the graphic was not from Bills comment, however the article indicated that it was used by him elsewhere, unless I misread. Bottomline here, whether he intentionally crossed the line or not, he crossed it and should have been removed. It would only be a matter of time before he crossed it again. People like Bill have so much pent up rage, they can't trust themselves to be civil.

Terry, the "people like Bill..." statment of yours really troubles me. What exactly are you referring to?

The Barry Cunnigham piece was close to the worst piece of journalism (and yes, i am loathe to call it that) i have ever seen. An extraordinarily irresponsible job that would not fly in any bona fide publication, but that another story. Whether or not Bill's removal was warranted is still largely dependent on the whole story, which AR does not really have to divulge. Would be nice, but I don't see it happening.
BTW: Ted, Jonathan Washburn in his second address did state that the comment in question was not the sole reason for banishment.

Regardless, if we resort to pure subjectivism, the honest exchange of ideas will no longer be possible, and that would be a shame, in my opinion.

Terry I am still not sure that the lemmings comparison is degrading to a race. After all, in some peoples opinion, the black community does vote heavily for Democrats, who, to some, don't do anything for them. It is an opinion, but a strong one in many paoples minds. I wrote in one of my blogs that Christians are like lemmings also. We (I am one), for Republicans and it is not always in our best interest. Being compared to lemmings is not that bad.

I certainly hope that we are allowed to talk about groups of which we are not a member. You will not be allowed to degrade conservatives, Republicans, men, or Christians if we go by your rule. Give it some more thought.

Inna, "people like Bill", you know, the ones that yell the loudest to make them appear always right and the rest of us always wrong.

Kevin, you're not black so you wouldn't know what might be offensive and what might not be. Just because the terminology doesn't bother you, it does bother a lot of other people, especially when we know the definition of lemming. And Kevin, there is a total difference between a supressed race being called a derogatory name, and a group of people who think alike being called a derogatory name. Its called civility Kevin. The name calling of other races should have ended long ago. Unfortunately there are still some people around who do, because it makes them feel better about themselves. I'm sure Bill would never consider himself a "lemming", ya think?

I strongly disagree, Terry. The discussion was about voter behavior - not about racial traits. I would be fairly certain that if someone stated to Bill that "you born again Christians are like lemmings in general elections, the vast majority vote Republican", that he would not be offended. The issue of abortion is very important to Christians and they tend to vote with pro-life candidates. It is not a derogatory statement - it is a reference to verifiable objective data.

Terry - think you're going to find out that Kevin is not white. That should be fun to watch, but I'm busy so I think I'll tivo it and come back with popcorn later on. :)

Ted, of course Bill wouldnt be offended, he's the one who likes the use of that word. Thats what you're not understanding. I am not black and I was offended because I know what the intent of the usage was.

Well Simon, don't pop the pop corn just yet. I always wondered why Kevin hid behind the American flag. BTW, are you still not having anything worthwhile to contribute to the thread, just interjecting snide comments? Seems to me I left the other group because of that tendancy amongst you guys.

"you're not black so you wouldn't know what might be offensive and what might not be"

I had to laugh at that statement. It sounds as if only blacks know what is offensive!

Sorry but the rest of us with brains know what is offensive too. You make it sound like the only people to suffer persecution or prejudice are the blacks. That is not true.

Blacks get hurt and bleed just like the rest of us. They are no different from the rest of the population. They love, they cry, they hate, they get scared.

We are no different except for skin tones. Their "people" went through pain and heartache and "our" people have gone through pain and heartache.

The sooner we all come to grips with this and learn to look at each other for who we are and not our skin tone the sooner we can come together on the real issues.

The fact that we are in 2008 and STILL have people that can't look past a person's skin tone is just retarded.

For the record I can stay out in the sun and be just as "black" as half the black people I know. Does this now make me "different"? Am I somehow now a different person or am I now to get different or special treatment? NO.

If Bill had used the N word I'd been all over his butt. PERIOD. I'd have been the first to put him in his place.

I think we are all being to sensitive and giving skin tones and political terms like "lemmings" way too much attention.

Cheri, I think blacks have been pretty much called every derogatory name some white person could think of. Of course we all have feelings, but to have grown up in a society where derogatory labels for people of color were the norm, I think the use of any such word could be considered more than just a little touchy. You apparently are not black, so you would have no concept as to how people of color would view certain comments. And I think you could probably stay out in the sun day and night and never achieve the look you are referring to. Being black is more than just skin deep. The bigotry surrounding blacks has had as much to do with their culture (oooooooo scary, things we white people wouldn't know about), their beliefs, their heritage etc. as it has to do with skin color. Blacks have not been discriminated against in this country just because of their skin.

I am green:-)

Not sure what I am - some people think I'm Arab, others, Alien, but you can't use that term with me anymore. I do know that I refuse to answer the race question on forms. I usually put "human" if they insist - something Inna apparently can't do! :)

I'm Vulcan ...

Peace be with all of you.

Simon: I put Eptosian (cute:-)

Sardi: can't say i am surprised... Those ears, man! (you are not ear-sensitive, are you?)

Sardi!! You are a FAKE Vulcan! The greeting is "live long and prosper" so I think you might be a Romulan posing as a Vulcan!!

Inna - nope - that would be Obama who is ear sensitive - and before you start - nope, I'm not! :)

MAY

2008

Kevin - I'm not going PC, I just prefer to do the right thing.

Terry - Thank you, I did link over and read the outside blog. I don't agree with everything Barry wrote, ie, I don't think AR welcomes racist behavior as he alludes to. I will say that if the pics were real, then I'm quite disappointed.

Ted - Yes the discussion was about voter preference and while I will not say Bill is racist (I really don't know the guy that well), definitions of 'lemmings' can include a negative connotation in terms of intelligence and thus his comment can be construed as shifting to denigrating to a race. Often what is perceived wins out over what is intended.

Simon - Since I was recently judged by my pic I'm going to do the same to you....and agree that you are Alien! :-D I too put down 'human' a few times then realized that my race is the 200m. Anyone questioning that entry can look at the annals of my university's track team and see I held the indoor record.

Kevin aint white. Good call Simon. I am proud to be American. I don't hide behind the flag Terry. I wave it proudly. All of my contact information is displayed. Email me, call me, write me. I'll send you a pic if you want it.

It always makes me laugh when people say, " you are not ...., so how would you know what is offensive?." Like I said, then we can all only know what is offensive to our own race, sex, religion, height, weight, morals, background, etc. That list gets awfully long and absurd. We would be very limited in what we can comment on. If I call a short person "shorty", can anyone that is not short understand it may be offensive to them? Is it only offensive if they have been oppressed? What about a successful short person? How about a successful black person? Are they suppressed?

I have a friend (I know that may surprise you that I have a friend) who is black. Very successful. Runs in pretty high circles- cocktail parties, etc. Lots of journalists and writers. He told me that he can find out who is racist really fast. He simply tells a really stupid, unfunny joke. He feels that the people who laugh at his extrememly stupid, non-funny jokes are racist. As he says " they don't want to piss off the black man". He would rather have them say "that was a stupid joke". The most racist people are afraid to do that because they might get in trouble. It is not PC to do that.

His point is that racist types are afraid to say a black man is wrong- in public anyways. I have thought about this and am starting to think that some in our community are under the impression that a black man cannot be wrong. And even if he is, it is wrong to point it out because he may have been oppressed. Is a white person who has been oppressed always right? Can I accidentally insult a white person who has been oppressed? Can I accidentally insult a black person who has not been oppressed (by their own admission)?

TO- I used to hold my college outdoor 800m record. Some young punk broke it a few years back (1989 I think). Darn kids. What years did you run?

Worth a listen

JUN

2008

Kevin - I graduated college in '90 but ran through '91 due to NCAA eligibility. Here's something you'll appreciate: my training partner in Spring '93 was Paul Ereng.

Tachaka, Chris Fisher said it pure and simply:

Bill (according to AR officials) had been warned many times, did not control his behavior, and finally was removed. We need to let it go. He is not a martyr. This is not because he's a Christian. This is because he refused to discontinue his inappropriate comments in a public forum.

Enough said!

JUN

2008

Tchaka-Paul Ereng is a bit younger than me but I watched him run a few times. I hear he is a real fantastic guy. I trained with a guy who was Edwin Moses roomie at Morehouse. I met Edwin at a TAC meet, but he was of course real nervous and did not want to talk much.

We'll have to talk track sometime. My wife was a Div. 1 swimmer so she does not want to talk track. My sons both play golf so they are not interested.

Kevin - I'm still in touch with Paul, actually I should call him as it's been a while. Yeah, he's a good guy. He's quite thoughtful about things and a very generous person. He's funny too. I'm also convinced he's not entirely human, there must be some robotic components somewhere because he needed zero recovery, meanwhile I'm laid out in the grass praying that I don't die! I met Edwin Moses in Sydney in 2000. He was low key but nice......considering it was 3am in a club and I wanted his autograph and a picture (which I got). Met a few other guys too.

My ex swam briefly with Curl, I'm sure your wife would know Rick Curl. Where'd she swim?

JUN

2008

My wife swam at UCSB. I think she swam in 79-80. She only made it one season (at D-1) before a back injury. I think she may have redshirted one season also. She does not swim anymore but has coached some HS teams. I don't know if she knows Rick Curl or not. I will ask her.

You are right about some guys and robotics. It seems that the top world class runners do not seem to suffer like us mere mortals after a stressful workout.

So you were a 200 guy. Did you also run 100 and 400? Any relays? Was your school D-1? I was down at the D-3 level. Played football and ran track.

FEB

I am glad to see AR has the ability to forgive people for making mistakes and being human. I think it was only right that the offenders apologized and got their act together.

FEB

Betina,

Just so you know. Bill Burress was never allowed back on.

This thing is unearthed again:)

Just the facts Sardi!

It's like Tutenkhamun.

APR

Tchaka - I just wanted to say, "I forgive you."

MAY

Tchaka,

I did not read the post which you are referencing but I do think that especially now in a country with so many who are angry, it is a good time for people to treat others with kindness.

DEC

Excellent point Tchaka-- forgiveness follows apologies. Some of us don't know how to apologize though. They think it's their right, as Americans, to post hateful, threatening messages. (As long as its about Obama, it's all good.)

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