I wonder if this problem is localized to your parts or prevalent across the country?  Any others encounter similar issues on a large scale?

I was made aware of a similar issue at our last office meeting and was very surprised to find out that 90% of the homes in a popular subdivision had never been inspected and signed off. Many of these are older, manufactured homes in a community of hundreds, not thousands but still? Where was the county in all this and how does this affect potential buyers and sellers?

Interesting post and one that probably relevant to many areas in the United States.

Hi there,

Thanks for the post, but I'm a little confused. Did you say the inspector said it was not permitted?  And I think I read "he just raised the question?"  Which one was it?  From past experiences, I've never had an inspector "check" for permits.

Every now and then we have something somewhat similar.  At a local city just yesterday, the city didn't have  the original permit for the house construction, yet they had a permit for room addition years later.  The property had been annexed in from a county are to the city limits.  Somewhere in the process the records were lost.  Seems like it happens every now and then. 

That is a shame about the permit. Unfortunately local government has too many changes which in turn leaves things undone. I have never had an ispector even bring up the possibility of a permit. Is this something that is becoming more and more common? I thought inspectors were only supposed to comment on the condition of the building and the surrounding land. I guess you won't be using that inspector in the near future. 

Hey, Lyle. I think the cost for Ron Ross to produce the video was $14,000. You should also check your link to the story in the Kitsap Sun. You have an e-mail prompt that pops up instead.

A very unfortunate story. I hope things work out for the Groene Family.

Happens a lot in South Florida with illegal garage/car port conversions for extended families in some communities. Local action here is that if there is no permit on file, the structure must be torn down and built back to what it is permitted for - the garage or car port.  At one point, one City was going to try to make it a law that before a sale could go through that a mandatory permit check would need to be completed.  It's in the best interest of the buyer to have this inspection to make sure they are getting what they are paying for.  Way too many people buy homes that are not properly inspected. You would be amazed how quickly the City can demand that 4/2 be converted back to a 3/2. Lack of code enforcement keeps the problem going.

To my knowledge there is no government agency handling permits satisfactorly. In Portland just a few years ago they permits were still all on Index cards. Unscrupulous Contractors would go to the permit center, ask to see the permit which was freely handed out to whoever wanted to view it as long as they took it no further than the waiting room counter. As most of the information was filled out in pencil it was easy to change. For example: If you wanted to show that the house was not a 1 bath house, you would enter a 1/2 bath behind the 1 and voila you would return the index card. Go around the corner to the permit center and ask if you could get a permit to say make a change by adding a tub instead of a shower. They would look and say well sure cause you already have 1 1/2 baths.

Home inspectors are necessary but they can cause sale fails. Let the word get around. And hopefully those inspectors will be out of business or at least learn to keep their oppinons to themselves

Most people don't understand the importance of obtaining a building permit for work they do to their property.. They often think it is too expensive or cumbersome.. Often they choose a contractor who either doesn't want to apply for the permit or isn't a licensed contractor and doesn't want red flags on his work.. When they want to sell their 3 bdrm 2 bath home they are stunned to find that an appraiser will only count the permitted sqft.. suddenly the 3 bdrm 2 bath is now a 2bdrm 1 bath and they can't get a high enough appraisal to meet the purchase price..

In the example they are linking to here there was a building permit.  The prior owner had the project inspected all the way through getting an occupancy permit.  They failed to "close out" the permit which was more of a technicality than anything else.  I know the permitting process is intended to prevent unsafe building practices but the example Lyle and Karen linked to is government run amok.

In the case of their client, it wasn't that there was no permit - the government had lost a bunch of permits and could not find one.  The contractor was willing to sign an affidavit saying he had closed out the permit.  Sounds like their client needs to join the lawsuit.

Rita 

Seems there is a big problem in the county concerning the permits of past years. However with a big push form the community I bet they can forgive those issues. And start keeping better records going forwards. I see another issue here though the Home Inspector had no place in making comments etc. about the permit. He is there to only address functional & safety issues. He isn't even there to make comments on aesthetic features. Just plain and simple functional & safety issues. If I were the seller I might speak to this company about their causing the home not to sell. Also I would be using another inspector in the future.

Inspectors and permits... what a ball of wax.... In my opinion doesn't matter where you are they are all about the same....LACKING!

Disclosing permit status has been a big deal in Los Angeles California for several years.  Think:  lawyers, lawsuits, $ settlements.  The inspector was engaging in a little bit of CYA in researching the permit status.  Good for him/her, and you!

Suppose the inspector said the garage is "just fine".  And suppose a short time after closing, somehow or other it comes to light the the structure did not have a building permit, and the buyer ends up paying fines and fees to get it permitted.  Maybe the buyer even has to make some alterations to bring it up to code.  Worse case:  Buyer has to tear it down.  Guess who gets sued?  The inspector, the sellers,  ~and~ the real estate agents.

That is absolutely horrible. I think there should be a time limit. If they are received and not signed off on in a certain time, they become valid. You can't be expected to wait 10-15 years in a home for a permit....

I agree with Christy, put a statute of limitations on enforcement of building permits.

On our Sellers Property Disclosure Statement there are questions about obtaining permits and final inspections. They are important. When this issue comes up, it needs to be handled, just like all the other issues that come up. On my last listing, the selling agent discovered that a 10 year old furnance installation never had been finaled. He was doing his job and looking out for his client. My client had hired a company, who was no longer in business, and had no idea if it was done. Was it the company or the counties fault? Who knows! We paid for a permit, less than $50.00, had it inspected and closed the deal.

It's a good thing those buyers found out in advance and walked. If they bought the house they could sue the seller, the listing agent and the buyers agent.

It is the listing agents responsibility to find out the legal size and room count or if renovations were legal. Just because a seller tells the agent everything was legal or they bought it that way is not enough. The listing agent needs to do their homework before they market the property.

To all of who have commented, thank you. Many great thoughts that we will bring to our brokers attention and point out to our fellow agents.

For some specific responses we would like to make the following comments:

First of all the video cost $14,000 - I think I had a comma misplaced.

 Lynda - The inspector called the county and found out that the permit, over 10 year old, had never been signed off or accepted i.e. they had no record of a final inspection.

Ryan - We represented the seller hence we had no choice over who the buyer selected.

Danny - "Right on" as to what we think the inspector's role should be.

 Mike - Our state is different than NY. When listing we are supposed to use county records and a five page Disclosure Form that the seller provides for much of the listing information. We are encouraged not to measure room sizes and such.

A last general thought that many of our agents are asking. Where does the Title Insurance fit into all of this? Even though it is not a lien, shouldn't buyers be protected from these situations? It appears the more recent policies handle it differently from earlier ones. Some employ deductable concepts as well.

In my county, if there has been no call for a final inspection, the permit will be "administratively" signed off, when all other inspections during construction have been performed satisfactory.

Hi Lyle & Karen,

Thanks for the response.  Wow, I'm really surprised.  Is that common for your area?  And are inspectors checking for permits in other states?  I've never heard of such a thing!

And as for title, seems to me that's a whole different thing.  Physical condition (unless it's an encroachment?) vs. a title issue.  We rarely have a title company even drive-by a property.  Once is a blue moon if there is an unlocated easement they drive by, but that's about it.

Thanks again,

Lynda Eisenmann, CRS, CRB, GRI, SRES, e-PRO

Thanks Lynda,

Well, there has been a series of problems unearthed in our county permitting process such that we will need to keep all of our followers posted on this issue.

Lyle