Well, fortunately, environmental groups already favor this project, so that shouldn't be a problem. 

Just a quick note on cost:  It's a 1,270 mile system, so that comes out to $3.77million per mile.  A good highway bridge costs at least $4 or 5 million.   With the net positive return on investment, the Ohio Hub is a bargain.

There has been some talk of Ohio picking up the Cleveland-Toledo-Chicago route from the Midwest Regional Rail Initiative.  Once the Ohio Hub is built, it would cost very little to include this route.  It would just be a matter of upgrading the tracks between Toledo and Ft. Wayne as Cleveland-Toledo and the Ft. Wayne-Chicago leg of the Columbus-Lima-Ft. Chicago takes care of most of the Cleveland-Chicago route .  That's what, 100 or 120 miles?  Anyway, it's just talk, though, I think Ohio should just go ahead and pick up that route too.  

I think 4 years is more realistic.  Ohio has to secure funding for the Programmatic Environmental Impact Study (PEIS)--a study that is required in order to receive federal funding.  It will also allow the state to preserve all of the needed infrastructure so that it's there when construction begins (remember, these will be 110 mph trains operating on existing rights-of-way).  

It is also absolutely crucial that SB 294 passes.  Word inside the Beltway is that this bill has legs, but people still need to tell their senators and congressfolk.  Senators and Congressfolk have said that they don't hear enough from their constituents on this issue.    Right now, ask senators to support SB 294.  Ask House members to support HR 1300 and to support a House-equivalent of SB 294 (it hasn't been introduced in the House yet)

Once the PEIS is done, we need a record of decision from the Federal Railroad Administration to preserve the infrastructure and to put it simply: seal the project as "federal funding ready". 

Anyway, the above is going to take two years.  

Fortunately, Gov. Strickland has indicated he wants some leg of the Ohio Hub up and running by the end of his first term.  Which leg that will be is not known yet.  ORDC is drafting various alternatives about this to present to him.  

So, we may very well have some part of it up and running at an introductory level of service by 2010/2011.  

Elaine:  There are no stupid questions.  Monorails and magnetic levitation (maglev) trains run on elevated rails.  Maglev is the fastest type of high speed rail (HSR) there is-- up to 300 mph, but it is hugely expensive.  None of Europe's high speed trains are on elevated rails, they run on tracks that are dedicated solely to passenger trains and operate at top speeds of about 186-200 mph (we'll call this TGV-style HSR).  TGV-style HSR costs an average of $25 million per mile (more where tunnels are needed, less elsewhere, this is just the average).  

As far as "high speed rail", the Ohio Hub is at the low end of the "high speed" category-- 110 mph top speeds (except possibly one section of the Cleveland-Youngstown-Pittsburgh route between Ravenna and Warren may run at 125 mph).  The trains will share tracks with freight trains, but the project will add the track capacity, signaling and safety features necessary to make that possible.  This is how you get the cost down to $3.8 million per mile-- most of the infrastructure is there.  It just needs to be expanded and upgraded, not built from scratch.  

The passenger trains will haul passengers.  Anything additional on the trains themselves would only be "package express" type stuff, if that.   Greyhound ships "package express" freight on its buses, airlines do it too.  I'm not 100% sure if the Ohio Hub trains will, but it's possible.  You'll see, pass, and be passed by NS, CSX, and Ohio Central freight trains, but no freight cars will tag along for the ride on the passenger trains themselves (that would make the 110 mph top speeds impossible). 

The US is going to have to make the investment eventually in TGV-style passenger rail, but it's impractical to go from zero to TGV in one step.  Europe and Japan didn't do it that way.  They did it incrementally by gradually adding segments of TGV to their conventional lines.  

Regarding grade crossing safety:  Grade crossing along the Ohio Hub corridors will either be eliminated (by road overpasses or underpasses) or upgraded with features like 4-quad gates or median barriers which will prevent cars from trying to get across the tracks when a train is approaching.  The gates will also be re-timed for the higher speeds so that they will come down in ample time.  

I have no doubt that a train may hit a deer or another animal once in a while.  That happens even  on France's TGV, nothing can prevent that.  A deer will pretty much just make a mess and won't result in injuries to passengers, however (sorry to be graphic). 

As for people, well that may happen too if they don't use common sense. Some stretches may be fenced, but I don't know that for sure.  I do know for sure that there will not be fencing along every mile.  That's not even done in Europe.   

I know that some people aren't going to like what I'm going to say next, but I'm going to say it anyway:  people who walk along railroad tracks or do anything but cross them at a legal grade crossing are trespassing and are opening themselves to risk of injury.  One of the things that really infuriates me is when I read a news story like one last year from SW Ohio when a father took his two kids for a walk along an active railroad line.  The crossed a tressel and while doing so, a train came.  One of the kids was fatally injured because he/she couldn't get off the tressel in time.  By the father using a little simple common sense, like not walking his kids along the tracks to begin with, would have prevented this horrible tragedy. 

I also live where there are two busy main freight lines.  Despite the signs at the crossings that say:  DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS, people do it anyway.  Sometimes when a train is clearly coming.  I've lived in this area for 6 years.  We're lucky that there haven't been any grade crossing accidents during that time.  

To reiterate:  the grade crossings on ALL of the Ohio Hub routes will be made much safer, but nothing can be done to force people to use common sense in other situations.  

Carole: Intercity passenger and freight trains can share tracks when passenger trains operate at 110 mph or less.  

Over 125 mph , no grade crossings are permitted-- they must all be closed or separated, and the track specifications get a lot more strict.

I think the rules may be different for commuter trains (and more strict) but I don't recall for certain.

Carole:  Do you mean on the actual passenger trains themselves or a freight train carrying hazardous materials on the same tracks during the Hub trains are running?  As I said, the passenger trains themselves will have no freight cars along for the ride, so to speak.  But, I don't know if there are any limitations on when or if a freight train carrying haz mats  can share the same tracks or if they require "time of day separation". 

That's a question for ORDC.  My guess is that there wouldn't be any restriction on a freight carrier from dispatching a train from New York to Chicago carrying hazardous materials when the Ohio Hub trains are running. After all, we're operating the trains on their tracks.  That's not to say that they may not save their most hazardous shipments for nighttime when the passenger trains aren't running. 

In all honesty, it's a lot safer to transport hazardous materials on a train than on multiple trucks.  One thing to remember, having passenger trains tightens the track and signal safety requirements which makes even freight shipments a lot safer. 

If you really want to get nervous, I could tell you about the types of things that airlines are allowed to ship in the cargo hold under the passenger cabin.  Somethings are flat-out prohibited from being shipped on passenger airplanes, but a lot less than you would think.  There are very strict packaging and labeling requirements for those shipments, but it's still permitted. Think about that the next time your on a plane.   Or, better yet, don't think about it...

Carole:

I understand now, you're thinking freight cars would be attached to the passenger trains-- no that's definitely not going to happen.  NO FREIGHT CARS WILL BE COUPLED TO THE PASSENGER TRAINS.  I was just talking about separate Norfolk Southern or CSX freight trains, etc operating on the same tracks as the passenger trains.  We'll be using NS and CSX's tracks to operate the Ohio Hub trains.  

Package express might be shipped, but it would be the small, high-priority packages that might be stored with baggage as is done on airplanes.  I'm not sure the trains will handle any package express.   It was talked about at one point, but I don't know if it will be or not. 

CArole (and Ed too)-  thanks for keeping us updated on this.  I have to admit that the additional 3 legs make the project a lot more appealing to me, as it increases the usefulness to the whole state, and the rest of the country, (okay part of the country). And I think the planned use for freight is the best thing about this. 

To quote PeeWee Herman (and why shouldnt we?) "everyone I know has a big but" here's mine- I'm still skeptical about those glowing estimates of costs, jobs, etc... hmm. And of course I keep choking on the 4 million/mile price tag. I just don't trust that the government will do the job well and properly.  Yes! I guess that's it!  Privatize this, and I'm there, Baby!  My couple 'o cents.

Theresa: 

$3.8 million is less than the average cost of a highway overpass. It's a bargain far and from anything to choke on.  There have been urban freeway projects that cost in excess of $100 million per mile.  Boston's Big Dig cost almost $2 BILLION per mile.  ODOT is spending $1 million per mile on SOUND BARRIERS. 

The government is funding the construction of this rail system and will contract out the operations, just like California has done, and with great success I might add, with its intrastate rail system. 

 Everybody seems to trust the government to handle highway, airport, waterway/port, public transit, and even bike trail construction.  Explain to me how is rail any different? 

If someone wants to say that we need to completely privatize the construction, maintenance, and operation of our highways, waterways, ports, aviation systems, bike trails, etc, then  I'll go along with the private sector handling the Ohio Hub project.  Otherwise, it's just applying a double-standard.  

WOW! I am impressed by the discussion and enthusasm here! I am the Prez at All Aboard Ohio and I just think what I am seeing here is marvelous.

 Just a short comment to Theresa Lussier..privatzation might not be a panacea for rail, since every other mode is heavily supported by all levels of government, thus skewing the playing field against any private operator who might otherwise be interested. In fact, if you study your history, you'll see that we had privately run passenger operations before 1971, but they could not compete against government supported highways and airlines. A good book to read on the subject is "Getting There" by James Goddard.

 My own opinion is that the government has an obligation to promote all forms of commerce. This is what a diverse, modern economy needs in today's world.

Hi Ed- and Bill-  yeah, make it all private.  That would suit me fine. :-) JMO

 Bill- I'll look into the book and thanks for the info.

Carole- I don't think you have to worry too much about getting this through.  Things appear to be moving forward in a very responsible way.  And I do think it's just a matter of time- if it doesn't happen now, it will eventually. 

I hope you don't mind the comments of one who is deeply involved with the Ohio Hub Plan, but I am really thrilled to see the array of comments on Carole's "blog" about the Hub plan.... even the skeptics.  A couple of observations:

• Don't let the $4.7-Billion dollar price tag throw you.  That is the investment it will take to build the Ohio Hub System fully at a 110-mph maximum speed on all of the corridors.  To put it in a little better perspective:  the current 20 year transprotation plan for Lucas & Wood counties in Ohio is $3.2-Billion dollars.  That covers mostly highway and some local mass transit projects.... for just two counties.  I don't mean to minimize $4.7 B, but there's a lot of bang for the buck in the Hub plan.
• We have to start looking upon the expansion and improvement of our rail corridors to move more people and freight as an essential transportation investment, just as we currently do for the rest of our infrastructure: highways, water & sewer systems, the electrical grids and aviation. We hope to release the details of a comprehensive economic impact study soon, but some of those details have already been posted on Carole's blog and these are legitimate numbers that repesent the "return on inevstment".
• But the important task now is to let our Senators and Members of Congress know that you support legislation at the federal level, such as Senate Bill 294, the Passenger Rail Investment & Improvment Act, or House Bill 1300, the "Progress" Act, which is primarily an energy conservation bill, but which contains significant funding for rail and mass transit.
• ORDC's aim is to advance the Ohio Hub plan to the point where it is at a funding-ready stage for federal funds.  But until the federal program is established, the Hub Plan and the regional rail plans of 28 other states (we are not alone) can only advance so far.

Feel free to e-mail us at ORDC if you have any questions or comments.  This has been a very open and public process from the start and your input counts for something. BTW: Don't forget to let Governor Strickland and your state legislators know how you feel.  I'm happy to say the Governor is taking a much more proactive stance on improving Ohio's rail and transit systems than his predecessors. 

Keep up the comments! 

Carole! I'm back. I happened upon a website for the Sierra Club, which shows some anti-sprawl options with light rail service, and it looked appealing.  Of course anything "train" reminds me of you now, ;) so I remembered this post. 

The Ohio Hub isn't light rail, but light rail could connect to the "Ain't Yer Daddy's Train" and woo hoo!!  The light bulbs went off- I get this now.  How exciting!  I could be in Chicago in no time, spend the afternoon at the Art Museum or the Hubbard Street Dance neither of which I ever manage to get to when I'm in town, and be back in time for dinner?  Holy crap!  lol Seriously though, I understand now what this could mean economically for Ohio. The impact of making it easy to connect Ohio's major cities (3Cs) with the east coast and Chicago could blow wide open all types of business opportunities for the entire midwest. And we desperately need it.  That is very, very, very cool.   

Okay lady, I'm on board. (Did I just say that out loud?)

Another comment, if I could.  "Ohioans are tired of being poor".   I couldn't agree more. There are infinite ways to be poor, and even though my family lives a very simple life, we don't want for love, or creativity or exhange of ideas- we are fortunate that our minds and hearts are well fed.  I understand the economic impact, but the impact I was referring to was the influx of creativity and energy and new ideas and new ways of looking at things.  That is what is going to keep my kids, or any kids, in Ohio or not. 

I have very extraordinary children.  I don't say that as a mother (okay maybe I do ;)  ) I say that as one person looking at the potential of another person.  Recently, I told my son that if he wanted to explore his full potential, he would need to move out of Ohio for at least part of his life. And I LOVE Ohio!  It pains me to tell my kids that, but I believe it's the truth.  This rail system could keep the best thoughts, ideas, opportunities flowing into Ohio (Why did it take me so long to figure this out?  Duh.).  We grow amazing brains in Ohio, we just have trouble keeping them here.  This could help us hold on to our best and brightest.  We do need this, absolutely.

Theresa,

Yes, you could get to Chicago and back in one day.  For the sake of argument, I offer the following possible scenarioi:  You could catch a 7 AM train and be in downtown Chicago by 11 AM.   Go to a museum and do some shopping hop on a 5 pm train and be back in downtown Cleveland for a late dinner at 9 pm.  No one knows the exact schedules, but we're looking at starting with 2-3 round trips per day and working up to 8-10 round trips per day at final build out. 

Interestingly, if you were to fly, from the time you walk into Cleveland Hopkins airport, go through security, etc, the fastest you can be in downtown Chicago is about 3 hours and 45 minutes.  Maybe 3 1/2 if you're lucky and there isn't a moment of delay.  It's not that much different then to take the train.  For a rexlaxing, one-seat ride, I'll choose the train any day.  

On board, you'll have power outlets for laptops, ipods, blackberries, etc.  Maybe a snack/lounge car.  Business class might even be able to offer an on-board meeting room, if the state chooses such an equipment configuration (they exist on some new equipment in Europe).  

Chances are the 3-C route will be built first followed by (in no particular order) Buffalo-Cleveland (with eventual extension to Toronto), Pittsburgh-Cleveland, Cleveland-Detroit, Pittsburgh-Columbus, and Columbus-Toledo-Detroit.  In whatever order these routes appear after the 3-C, a route to Chicago will probably be one of the later routes. 

The sooner we can move this plan forward, the sooner it will get done!

If Ohio's Real Estate trade association starts working on the state legislature and the Ohio Congressional delegation, it will help.  

You could probably ask Stu from ORDC (or someone else there) to come and give a presentation at one of the Association's meetings. 

Ed