Hi Jon!

I'm afraid to even get started. I don't want to get kicked off. I can't seem to respect the opinions of liberals. I'm praying for help to keep my mouth shut. Thank you for opening yours

Kieran

That is what is great about our country.  Everybody has a right to say what they feel even though we don't like it.  God Bless America

John - I have been in many of the so called "progressive" countries and they often have fewer freedoms than we do. I have also been in many of the more restrictive countries. All things considered, I do prefer our system here.

I too have been around a few countries. Mike is right. Progressive means restictive. Jon lets kick the living you know what out of any kind of terrorists that we find around our country.

Jon - you get a standing ovation from me on this one. I lived in the UK - certainly a free country as you and I understand it. I lived in Israel for a year - equally a free democracy. But the problem with freedom is that it makes it extremely difficult to defend yourself against someone willing to die in the process of killing you. And so until we win against the terrorist, there will be freedoms that we have to temporarily give up. In the UK freedoms were also given up during WWII and once it was won, they were restored to the people.

When 911 hit everyone was scarred and wanted something done.  Something is being done and now the sissy's are compaining about the tightening of our liberties.

I say, we need to do what we need to do. If you aren't doing anything wrong, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT!!!

Jon, Can i come to your home for thanksgiving next year, I'll bet we could make it interesting.

By the way i am featuring this in Silent Majority

Of course you are, Hugh:-)

William, you said:  When 911 hit everyone was scarred and wanted something done.  Something is being done and now the sissy's are compaining about the tightening of our liberties.

You may speak for yourself, please.  I was not scared, I was saddened, and I am nowhere near to being a sissy.  I wanted something appropriate done, not an invasion of a country that had nothing to do with the attack.  People became more scared thanks to the advertising campaign buzzwords like "evil doers" and "code orange".  I became scared of my government because an actual human tragedy does not need buzz words.  It was obvious they were up to something, and still are.  This is not a tightening of our liberties, it is a theft.

Jon - you mention coming away from the Russia with something Inna did not, fear.  That is exactly what is being used to strip us of our rights.  Fear.  If we are scared enough, we allow them to destroy our constitution and take control of our government in ways that will be very difficult to reverse.

Inna.Between you and Jon I agree 100% of the time 95% with him and 5% with you, but I do enjoy that you both have such strength to your convictions. This I respect in anyone.

A well conceived post with sound reasoning behind it, despite the fact that I disagree with many of the key tenets. Refreshing, actually. We Americans are protected from "unreasonable" searches and seizures. Considering most find screening at airports "reasonable" I don't foresee a challenge to this forthcoming. I certainly don't mind or find it unreasonable. Traveling by air is a choice. When you make choices, you are obligated to fulfill the terms attached to those choices.  Not remotely the same as governmental intrusion on private communication. You can always choose not to board the plane, but you have no idea whether your privacy is respected in regards to eavesdropping.  No choice to be made whether to accept or not accept the encroachment. The problem that I see, Jon, that you and others do not, is one of precedent. Conservatives scream the longest and loudest about the perils of communism and socialism, but seem so cavalier about a slow erosion of liberties in return for security.   Let's nail the bastards who wish us ill to the wall, but is the requirement of a court order citing probable cause such a horribly constrictive chore? Any government will take as much power as you give it, so I am not much impressed by the rhetoric about how vital such unconstitutional eavesdropping is to our national security. Convinced they are listening to terrorists instead of soccer moms? Great, I'm sure a judge will be too then.  He/she will surely agree and grant the tap.  I'll say it again though, Jon, I enjoyed reading your perspective. Much more enlightening than a bunch of vitriol with little behind it.

And please excuse my atrocious spelling and odd phrasing. Stupid phone thinks it knows what I am trying to say better than I do.

We take freedom for granted.  That's our biggest problem in this country.  Freedom is not free.  That said, I will shut up now.

You are right, Bob.  Much as that cliche is bandied about, it is true.  Freedom is not free.  So why do we so cavalierly give up what we fight tooth and nail for?  What we have shed blood for?  Terrorists and other external sources are not the only threats to our liberty.

Kieran and Cecelia - That's funny, Do not worry, open you mouth. This is a free country after all.

William - I agree with Chris.....I wasn't scared.  And implied in everyone "wanting something done" is the assumption that the right thing would be done.  If I run into you lying in the street stabbed and in pain, I can seek medical attention for you or I can hand you a joint to ease your pain.  In both cases "something was done" so I guess you'd be a sissy for complaining about the latter.

Paul - You wrote. "Conservatives scream the longest and loudest about the perils of communism and socialism, but seem so cavalier about a slow erosion of liberties in return for security".  Exactly!  I actually laugh everytime this argument is advanced with "You liberals...."  The irony certainly is not lost here.

Jon - With all due respect, one does not have to live behind the Iron Curtain to understand what's going on.  And I will urge you to select a better example than Syria, my father happened to have a short term project in Damascus and he (like others) say it's actually a pretty cool place.

Russ - Thanks for commenting

Mike and Kevin - Yes, democracy is not a given, and many countries have their limited versions, and, of course, they are progressive. Have you ever heard of a regime calling itself regressive?

Simon - Churchill was a great guy and navigated the country in the most difficult times. But he lost after the biggest danger was over. We can afford saying or doing anything, but when real danger comes, we shut up. The problem is that when it passes we liberally shut those who handled the danger so well. Now we do not need a hero, we are all ones.

William - do you remember that people who ridiculed the law enforcement for a raid where they got 20-something students planning to blow the tunnels in New York? It was before September 11, and I remember the guy was ridiculing the Feds for even thinking that these kids could blow up anything. He was sure the Feds were using this as scare tactics.

When 19 young people did blow up the World Trade Center, the same guy was pathetically asking where the Feds were and how come they did not catch them.

Hugh - You sure are invited, but can I hold you to your word? And thanks for the feature.

Chris - Yes, this is a huge difference. I do not want to say that this is not a concern. I think that what I say is crazy, but I do not feel losing the freedom, and maybe this is simply because I got so much freedom in this country, I may feel I got too much of it (do not get surprised, many immigrants feel this way).

If you had just this one country, you would be right. But you are in the world, which suddenly became smaller and which is not the same way this country is. This interaction never was really a factor before, but now it is. You were saddened by September 11? The people who died did not die of cancer or any other disease, why is that you were saddened, and not outraged, and vengeful, which, I think, would be an appropriate reaction?

This was a deliberate act of terror, so I was not saddened, I was furious. I wanted to go and take an eye for an eye...

There is a lot of talking about invading a country that had nothing to do with the attack. Chris, we are in a new reality, where there is no country behind anything. There is no need now to be a country, just small groups, communicating with each other. In that sense there is no enemy. The groups may be anywhere and even in this country. Why? Because of the freedom here. It provides safety, that they would not experience in any other place. Will you be surprised if the judge throws away the case of terrorists caught with a dirty nuke ready to go, if they can claim the raid was unreasonable, or because the arresting police did not read them their rights? Try that in any other country, even those that are considered their safe heaven like Pakistan and Afghanistan.

So the question is whether the Government is using Fear to deprive us of our individual freedom, or it is a real thing. Do we really have to ask that question after 9/11? 

Paul - It is bit late, and I would need more time than just "thanks for a comment". I simply did not want to look rude not answering. I am taking a raincheck until tomorrow.

Tchaka - you are right, one does not have to live behind the iron curtain, it was not my choice, but it sure sharpens the receptors.

As for Syria, well, take Russia. A lot of people who go to Russia say it is soooooo cool (that's a interesting definition of a terrorist country, of course).

I remember in 1988 I met an American in Pushkin Square in Moscow, and he was telling me how lucky we were, as it was so darn boring in US.

He was watching us as cockroaches in a jar, in his safety and comfort in Russia, that we did not have. For him it was so unbelievably cool.

I bet if we go to Russia together, with our American passports, it will be cool, but I am sure we would be seeing two different countries. Actually, I do not even need to go there for that. So, when you will be in a car going to the hotel from the airport, I would tell you how much the policeman on that corner paid to be there, and how often and who comes to collect his share of the profit, and many other things like that in a cool country like Russia.

We need to vote in a strong man for president. One that will not just talk to the terriorists but one who will stand behind his words with action. I will be voting for McCain!

Jon - we especially have to ask that question after 9/11.  9/11 has been used by our government to scare the heck out of us so we will let our freedoms be stripped from us, one after another. The first time I heard "evil doers" I knew that our leaders were exploiting the situation.  It is inappropriate and disrespectful to the people who lost their lives.  That is when the fury hit me. 

Of course I was saddened.  People died.  People lost their families.  For me, sad is a very appropriate response to such a tragedy.  I'm not an eye for an eye type of person.  I would prefer to find solutions to problems and take appropriate action.  Blind vengeance and blind fear are the result/outcome of an eye for an eye.  We all end up blind and nothing is changed. 

Do you really think that people who hate Americans hate us LESS now that we've invaded Iraq?  Do you really believe that makes us LESS of a target for terrorists?   I'm pretty sure that if someone hated America before we've just helped them to believe that they were right all along.  Not doing much to solve the problem.

First of all, no matter who is in the Presidency, I would never say that for I do respect the office the man or woman hold. Having said that, I do not feel that as a country at war, freedoms should be considered. The World War II saying in every theatre was "Loose Lips Sink Ships". Even the news media kept a constant hold on certain information also asking permission from the military and even the administration. News and government were working together, as also other establishments because they knew we had to win this war. When I hear things from Inna about how we can't win this war on terror, it makes my skin crawl. It is liberals who consistantiy keep our military from even getting a victory posted in one the liberal papers. But when a soldier loses their lives in the course of duty to country, they claim we lost the battle.

Nicholas, i think it would be better forum Etiquette to address my posts, and or comments on my own blog, if you could. This is sort of like speaking about someone behind their back:-)

Just a thought-

He- I got "jakfruit"... I wonder if you need a jacknife to eat it:-)

YOU COULD BE TEMPTED TO ASK WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED TO US IN SUCH A SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME?

Yes you could, Simon.I particularly like the "Americans Will always fight for liberty" one.

Jon- After 911 the whole country went patriotic. In a weird way I was glad that my children saw how fragile freedom can be, but also terrified that the world would change for them forever. It's just 7 years later and everyone here, almost everyone forgets how it felt on that day. WE ARE STILL AT WAR!!!! Boo Hoo is someone is monitoring cell phone usage. We haven't been attacked since. Thank You Mr. President!

Extremely well said Mark. I find it so hard to believe that America has fallen asleep again so quickly and so easily.

Mark - It is the paralysis of senses coming from the relative security that we enjoyed after 9/11. We are becoming everything fast, eryething immediate gratification.

Fast food, fast politics, fast culture. Everything is based on cliches, often defying common sense. Give Iraqis 18 months to make it a democratic country and secure it, and if they don't, heck with the them and the whole volatile part of the world. That approach is what Americans think of democracy and security, and the culture. On the one hand everyone is so sensitive, that they would raise hell with a dying cat, and on the other they would not want to understand how deep are some traditions run in the culture, and how difficult to find the replacement for the order instilled by fear with the law and order of a democratic society, because you can't build a democratic society in 18 month. I can only imagine the frustration of Iraqi leaders when they hear those demands from American politicians, who are simply superimposing their american model on the Iraqi reality.

In politics you can't afford having 5th graders smarter than you. maybe this is the result of poor education in American schools realting to the rest of the world. Maybe we need to make sure our kids are more cognizant of the way the world is, and then, maybe, our aspiring politicians would be more in line with realities of the world, and not try to do everything McDonald's or Burger King style.

This is a free country, but how often the right to say whatever you want goes unaccompanied by the common sense.

Thanks, Jon, for this post.

I've been "away" for a while... focusing on things other than upsetting politics.  And I plan to not spend as much time as I used to in this (or any other) forum where important things are discussed, but more heads are butted than harmony realized.  (It seems to me, it's rare to see either side make much, if any, headway in convincing the other side to change stance.)

I, too, disagree with that statement that "our personal freedoms (all of them) just got trampled on". 

Some of our freedoms have been stepped on.  Others have been "trampled."  But many, many more have remained intact.

It's important to be vigilant to the wanton disregard for liberties.  We are a nation that's supposed to be setting the standard for rule of law. 

As for the issue of warrantless wiretapping...

It's inappropriate (read that: illegal) for our government to tap into communication lines without a good reason, and without getting appropriate approvals.  With the advancement of technology, our government has made rules that allow tapping of suspect connections without prior warrants, but those warrants do need to be sought within a reasonable timeframe.  When taps are made and warrants never sought - that's a clear violation of the law.  And those involved in that violation deserve to be punished according to the law.

We do need to fight for our freedoms.  Part of that is going after the "bad guys", but part of it is also making sure the "good guys" abide by our laws.  If the "good guys" don't follow our laws, then despite their good looks, good intentions, position, power, charisma, and/or charm, they - by definition - become "bad guys."

This morning I saw this interesting blog about "good guys" and "bad guys."  It included a link to this fascinating video of a relatively recent discovery of photos from Auschwitz which show that those running that concentration camp looked like "good guys" when they were in their retreat.  It's really rather chilling.  We all tend to create caricatures of the "evil" people, but they really are not all that different from us - except for how far they're willing to go in "justifying" bad behavior.  Some of us draw the line very, very early - at even the hint of potentially questionable behavior, such as hatred for another or "little white lies" (like, when someone calls - having your assistant say "s/he's not here" when the truth is that you just don't want to deal with them.)  Others find ways to justify murder - either of viable babies or of "infidels."  None of us are truly "good."  And none of us are completely "bad."  Even the most despicable human you can think of, had, at least at one time, a "normal" human side that would cause others to never suspect their evil capabilities.