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Deal Killer Inspector

Deal Killer Inspector

By John McKenna

AMERICAN HOME INSPECTION

I sympathize with the hardships of what Realtors must endure in order
to make it all the way to finally selling a home, only to have the
deal dashed in front of their eyes by the "Deal Killer" home Inspector.

Therefore it is a temptation to avoid the "Deal Killer" home inspector.

What are your feelings on this issue? What do Realtors really want from
home inspectors?

John B McKenna is a Certified Master Inspector serving the East Texas area. John has been licensed by the Texas Real Estate Commission (TREC) and appoved by TREC as an inspector trainer. He has more than 25 years experience in the construction industry and is certified by the National Association of Certified Home Inspectors (NACHI). He continues to update his yearly education and testing requirements. Visit his company website at www.texas-inspection.com, or call his office at 1-888-818-4838 (Toll Free) for more information.

Complete Home Inspection Service For Conroe, Lufkin, Bryan, Crockett, College Station, Livingston, Palestine, Nacogdoches,Athens, Jacksonville, Huntsville, Lake Palestine, Lake Conroe, Lake Livingston, Corsicana.

Posted by John McKenna on 03/18/2007 01:29 AM

Comments (223)

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223 Comments on Deal Killer Inspector

MAR

2007

All I want from an inspector is good communication with my client and straight talk. Let them know before the inspection you can only see if it is working today and things may happen in the future. Please do not use phrases like " Ticking Time Bomb" when talking about a 12 year old water heater. Do not put in the inspection report "door scratched" or "carpet is worn" my clients have seen those already and those are cosmetic issues.

I agree with James. Whether I am representing the buyer or the seller, I want an honest evaluation of the property. I want items on the inspection report that address the issues necessary for the buyer and seller to learn. What are the conditions of the systems? Plumbing, electrical, heat & cooling, structure, dampness issues, appliances that convey, etc.

I don't want to know that the carpet is worn or the paint is scratched or the appliances are 10 years old. Those type of things are not repair issues and tend to muddy the waters of the transaction. I don't want a cost to cure on each item. Let the responsible party get repair estimates from licensed repairmen.

When I purchased a house in Florida ten years ago, the owner of the company who performed the WDO (termite) inspection approached me before he ever went into the house and told me he would not hide issues, everything would go on the report and no Realtor® would ever convince him to change his report. He became my go to guy and I used him every time because I knew he would provide an honest report every time

Fortunately over the past 4 years I have only encountered a couple of "deal killer" inspectors. Yes you do run across the guy with an attitude who feels he must nitpick every cosmetic issue to justify his charge! I believe most home inspectors try to do a good job although some do not have the experience or training. Certainly inspectors will wave the red flag about a potential problem but with appropriate communication the client is well served. Inspections are part of the process, just as the mortgage, that will sometimes kill a deal!

The inspectors I use have excellent communication skills. Let the buyers know when something is a maintenance issue which should be handle by them ,and when something is a repair issue and should be looked into further.

There is one company in the area I fear, they seem more worried about their liability insurance than what are maintenance issues and what are repair issues. Red flag everything,no matter what it is, nail pops, whatever. Their inspections take hours and hours. They scare buyers half to death and at the end of every inspection with a binder full of items the inspector has noted, the inspector turns to the shell shocked buyer and says THIS IS A VERY GOOD HOUSE! Like this will keep the deal together.

I have had more deals fall apart due to this inspection company than any other. Both on buy and sell side. Other agents too. Don't get me wrong - I expect inspectors to find defects in the home - this is what they are paid to do - But there is a vast difference from what is a maintenance issue and what is a repair issue.

Sorry to go on and on. That's my two cents. That and $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee :)

Sandra

I agree with what has been stated before me...MOST inspectors I come across try to do a GREAT job of explaining what is truly a safety issue and needs repair. Just for the record...I don't try to avoid home inspectors, I see them as a helping tool.

Perspective. Bigger picture. An inspector that can explain to the purchasers what is a concern, what is a MAJOR concern, and what is something that is not a big deal. The inspector I use is a structural engineer and certified home inspector, and he is a FANTASTIC people person as well. He educates the purchaser on the house they are trying to buy: how the heat/cooling systems work, how things are situated, current condition, things they need to do in the next few years to maintain the home. For anything that is an issue, he lets them know how much of a concern it is without scaring them to death! Mainly, I think what makes him successful is that in addition to be the professional opinion on the home's construction and condition, he educates them on the product that they are buying.

(hope that makes sense, I still need one more cup of coffee to really get underway today!)

Heather

Most inspectors do a wonderful job of explaining "defects" to the buyer. Yes, I've had the inspector tell clients about "time bombs". After discussion, turned out inspector wasn't an expert in the problem, just covering his but. Clients eventually understood.

I did have one inspector miss safety items. Clients are now informed they should ask lots of questions about their inspectors background and knowledge.

I want inspectors to be honest with clients and take the time to answer their questions. If they are not an expert with something they notice, I expect them to say so and advise clients to get an expert opinion.

As a Home Inspector myself, I hate the term "Deal Killer" and hopefully I will never have that reffered to me. But I will potentially provide the information one day, where a buyer will decide not to buy.

I basically tell the buyer all about the house. I don't include the scratch on the floor, they can see that quite clearly. What I am reporting on is the various systems in the home, and how they stand up to my inspection. Hopefully this information will lead the home buyer to have a better understanding of the home.

Just recently, I inspected a home, where I deemed the furnace to be at end of life. I explainded to the client that the furnace is original to the home, 25 years, and that most of the heat is likely to be lost up the flue. having said this I also knew that the furnace has been maintained religiously for the past 18 years, and had all the record there. So who is to say that the furnace will not continue for the next 20 years. But I have to mention to them that the furnance in my eye is coming to the end of it life, and they should budget for replacement in near future. The same was said about the AC unit

Was that a deal killer, It could have been an extra 4-5K for a furnace and an AC unit. Buyers could have said that they did not want it. But in my explanation they were OK with the old furnace and understood it would have to be replaced in the near future.

I think it is mainly an education process for the buyers, and I am the teacher.

Bernard Loken, CAPM Whitby, Ontario

I always hate to see a report with:

Hire a certified structural engineer to evaluate .......

Hire a certified HVAC specialist to evaluate.......

If the inspector cannot tell if there is a problem, why are they doing the inspection? We have one local firm that usually creates a report full of suggestions to hire additional people from roofing contractors to engineers to HVAC and plumbing.

I don't use these guys myself but other agents do.

Rita

It is my experience that more deals are killed by new inspectors or the ones who try to prove to the client that they can find problems.

My job is to report on the condition of the home and IF a 'defect' is found explain to the client what that defect means.

Example: If no GFCI's are present in a kitchen I explain to the buyer that GFCI's may not have been required at the time of construction, and they should add them when they move in. I do not feel it is the responsibility of the seller to perform code upgrades unless they did work that would have required the upgrades. This is most common where no permits where pulled for the work.

I think that you find that the more experience that an inspector has the less you find him "killing" a deal.

The inspector is NOT the deal killer -- I like to recommend that my buyers find a thorough inspector. I carefully counsel them however that the Seller may NOT fix everything -- we are look for defects that are more significant than a noisey toilet -- safety is NO.1 -- and things like structural problems, faililng components -- or compenants that have worn beyond normal wear and tear! It also is helpful the inspector to be CLEAR -- NOT it APPEARS - is it or isn't it? It also is helpful if the inspector clarifies what is a problem and what is a recommendation. Ultimately, it is the Seller and the Buyer who either make the deal or kill the deal!

OK... What I hear everyone saying is basically this...

Tell the Client about the true condition of the house without inflaming undo fears. But there is a problem with that sometimes. If an Inspector does not mention that scratch on the door, then the Client finds out later that the scratch cannot be removed and wants the Inspector to pay for whole new door assembly....

Or... if the Inspector spends too much time in his report explaining why something's are no big deal, then later their brother-in-law (the electrician) tells them it could be a huge problem if not repaired... yada, yada, yada,...

Or... if the Client is not instructed to seek Professionals advise for further inspections and repairs, and decides to do it themselves... they find out later it is harder than they thought and the discovery process leads them to some unseen problems, that were related to the same LITTLE problem that started the chain of events... yada, yada, yada.... Then they hire a Professional and find out the price is much higher than they guessed at from the beginning... who does the Client get mad at and want to go after? The Inspector of coarse.

I think some of the problem here is that Realtors sometimes measure how good an inspector is by how well they calm the fears of the Client and help the sell goes through.

On the other hand, the Inspector is in the field, has been attacked over and over by Clients who get really angry over some little stuff after they buy the house.

I had one angry Gentleman chew me out because I did not explain to him what could happen to his shingles if he did not clean the leaves off of his roof on a regular basis. So now, I include comments about keeping your roof clean, even if it does not need it, at the time of the inspection.

If Realtors could step into the shoes of Inspector for a few months, and read the standards of practice, it might help their understanding a little. Just because a Realtor thinks an issue is a little thing, does not mean he knows more than a trained inspector. Realtors must understand that Inspector's cannot leave Clients with the idea that they can make all the repairs themselves... and try to make them feel good about certain issues without Professional advice, pricing and repairs.

It is common knowledge that the Inspector is the first line of defense, when an angry Client wants to go after someone in court , for some faults they have found in their new home purchase.

Have you ever taken a coarse on the standards of practice and report writing that Inspectors are required to follow? You be would amazed at what is required to revealed in an inspection report as mandated by law. Then read the transcripts of what lawyers do with those laws to hang an Inspector in a law suite.

The Realtor's liability is nothing near the liability and standards that are placed upon an inspector regarding the condition and future problems that develop to the Client's home. If someone dies from a little fault in the handrails, the Inspector is liable for that death. Hmmm. A small flaw in the flashing of the roof, that has had previous repairs, can lead to a huge mold and decay problem soon after the tar patch wears out.

Guess who the Client gets mad at when that happens?

There are two sides to every story. Home inspection standards are getting more intense as each new day goes by. Reports will become more detailed as the general public demands more accountability. There is a reason that some people love the DEAL KILLER, and will hire no other.

IMHO

What Really Matters - With A Home Inspection

Buying a home? The whole process can be stressful. During the home inspection period alone, you will be asked to absorb a lot of information in a short period of time. This often includes a written report, photographs, testing/ sampling reports, WDO/Pest inspection findings etc. All this combined with the seller's disclosure statement, what you notice yourself and getting your financing approved makes the experience even that more overwhelming. What should you do?

Relax. Most of your inspection will be preventative/ maintenance recommendations, life expectancies and minor imperfections. These are nice to know about. However, the issues that really matter will fall into four categories:

Major defects. An example of this would be a structural failure.
Things that lead to major defects. A roof leak, for example.
Things that may hinder your ability to finance, legally occupy or insure the home.
Health & Safety items. Such as improper deck securements, electrical hazard issues, and Carbon monoxide & gas leak detection.

Anything in these categories should be addressed. Often issues discovered during the inspection can be corrected inexpensively to protect both life and property (especially in categories 2 and 4). Major defects will most likely need some negotiation between you and the seller and your Real Estate Agent can help you with the financing/ insurance issues if they arise. In regards to a re-sale property, we find that most sellers are honest and are often surprised themselves to learn of defects uncovered during an inspection. We'd all like to find the ‘perfect' home but unfortunately they just don't exist. All homes have issues. Even some newly constructed homes I've inspected over the years have had a few major and minor issues that needed attention. New definitely does not mean, "Perfect".

The goal of a home inspector is to give you an unbiased "second opinion" and to identify significant material defects or adverse conditions that could result in serious injury or lead to costs that would significantly affect your present evaluation of the property, and to alert you to the need for any secondary specialist evaluation prior to the consummation of the sale.

A good home inspector should have three qualities, prettu much in equal measure:

He (she) should be technically astute. A home inspector is not a specialist, but a generalist, familiar with all aspects of the house. In our state (Illinois) the state HI license laws require the inspector to call out problems with the house according to current national construction standards, not according to mere local codes. The reason is that there are many different municiplaities and their local codes vary to a great degree. This also means that we are not allowed to overlook issues that would be acceptable to local codes because of "grandfather" clauses. If it is unsafe, according to current standards, it is still unsafe.
A good inspector should be a good report writer. Checklist reports are cheap and really do not describe the property. Computer aided report writing software helps, but a good inspector will use only a small amount of "boiler plate" verbiage and customize the report to the client. It is also important that the report be written in language that is easily understood by the client, as well as by the clients lawyer (if RE lawyers are used in the area of practice). Readability and clarity are very important.
A good home inspector, like a good Realtor, should also be a good applied psychologist. Clients are usually going through a roller coaster ride of emotions and need an inspector to clarify their concerns. Most houses I inspect have some sort of problems, but they are usually minor and can be easily and inexpensively repaired. It is important to put things in perspective. One should never panic the client. Just explain and educate them in an honest and clear manner.

Hope this helps;

Very good post Mr Decker.

Here are some links that may help clarify some things also:

NACHI standards of practice

NACHI code of ethics

I want Home Inspectors to follow their sheets, look at the FACTS of each of item and present the FACTS...ONLY. You can give your opinion too many times become FACT to a Buyer and end up killing a deal. Case in point. I recently had a home inspection for one of my listings, a 75 year old home. The home inspector stated many things in writing, "substandard materials used, poor workmanship" .."I could not get to the other end of the crawl space so I would recomment a structural engineer" WHAT? This is a $210,000 HOME! Give me a break. You either like it or you don't. If you want a new home....move on...you will pay $100,000 more. Buyer...pay for the Structural Engineer, don't expect at $210,000 for my Seller to.

Mr McArtor,

If the statement of "substandard materials and poor workmanship" were related to visible movement, leaning walls, improper moisture barriers, unsafe conditions, etc... it would be against the standards of practice to omit these items just because the house is a "good deal, at a nice price, for an older home".

The performance of the structure, the materials and methods used, are all part of the statement of facts. Your injection of price and value are outside the disciplines of the home inspection standards of practice. If a home inspector cannot access parts of the crawl space because it is too low to the soil, the inspector is required by law to disclose that those areas were not inspected and recommended the needed steps to resolve the issue. Your post is a good example of how Realtors want inspectors to report outside the standards of practice. I am sure you mean no harm, but it would be wise to read the links I posted above and become familiar with the standards that govern a home inspection. It would prepare you for the increasing pressure that the law is bringing to bear, on the home inspection industry.

It would also be helpful to become aware of how many deaths, accidents, injuries, electrical failures, fires, mold, foundation repairs, law suites issues, etc... are realted to older homes in the U.S. The cost runs into the billions of dollars and the cost of human suffering is in the tens of thousands. The Inspector may be held liable for these issues if he is found negligent.

What I want from a home inspector whom I am going to refer clients too. Someone who is knowledgeable, speaks with confidence "no wishy washy answers", a clear computer generated report, a summary that is easy to read and understand. And everything done in a timely manner. I also appreciate when the inspector makes themselves available for questions if clarification is needed.

BTW... it against the law, in most states with licensing laws, for the Realtor to refer the Client to a certain home Inspector (even though we know this happens all the time). This feeling of being above the law is wide spread and the consumer is the one who suffers for it in the end, IMHO.

With regards to "referring" clients to any professional during a real estate transaction - If asked myself and my team always give out a minimum of 3 names - that way we can't be accused of exactly what you are referring too. Good blog topic.. i think i'll write one.

Interesting comments from everyone, which reminded me of the the following.

I had a Realtor friend on an Inspection ask me not to make a big deal about the Single Strand Aluminum Wiring in the house. I just nodded my head and wrote my usual AL wiring findings (standard boilerplate, as how many ways can you really report AL findings). I started in on the report summary and got to the AL wire part, the client then said "I lost a family member in a house fire caused by an electrical failure", I just looked at my friend and waited for him to say something..................................

That Deal died right then and there. Did I do it?

I try not to use too many adjectives and as far as I am concerned most everything can be repaired. I just try and let my client know the condition of the home at the time I am inspecting it, no more no less.

John McKenna, thank you for your response, it is posts like this that remind me how wonderful the auction end of my business is. "As-Is" truly means "As-Is". Give me the run-down house anyday...I will have buyers lined up for it!!! Give me a Traditional Contract to work with? the worms come POURING out of the can along with the headaches......

I have lost almost all confidence in home inspectors. They seem to be a batch of crybabies with cameras and computers.

Gerogia Blankensip,

Is there a reason that we cannot see who you are? I mean there is no link to a profile for you. I for one like to know with whom I am speaking.

Another phantom?

John,

I think the idea of a "deal killer" is a subjective one at best. I can agree with some of the former comments made by agents concerning being "nit-picky". I believe that what it comes down to in most cases is in the way issues are communicated. You and I know that there are inspectors out there who simply aren't good communicators. That is one of the primary reasons that report software was invented. I have found that my own software is best used when the comments are primarily my own---and that using the standard comments rarely saves me much, if any, time. The issue of communication is the one reason that I still use a notation checklist on the inspection itself, then complete the report with software back at the office. I have made the decision to sacrifice QUANTITY in the interest of QUALITY. This has worked well for me, and I will continue to do it, unless or until I invent my own method of speeding up the process that does not sacrifice the quality of my reports. Other inspectors may disagree with me, especially among those who complete and print out the "driveway" report. My point is that each home has its own unique qualities and problems, and should be treated as such. Having said all that, our code of ethics still demands that we serve our CLIENTS' interests, not to mention the fact that it is our simple moral responsibility. We should never downplay serious issues with a home in order to save a deal. If you get branded as a deal killer because you are performing your duty, so be it.

So what is worse?

The home inspector that charges .1% of the contract price ($625 in this case) regardless of the home to do the home inspection and completes (arrival, inspection, report and farewell) the entire job in less than 1.5 hours on a 85 year old home that has not been updated?
The home inspector who takes 5 hours to inspect a 6 year old condo?
The home inspector who talks incessantly about his family woes and not the house?

Seen em all!

Actually the most annoying is when the home inspector shows up with an alarm company rep who monopolizes the client for 30 mins in an attempt to sell a home alarm system. They said it was part of their service. That was the last time I ever used that company.

I think what happens is when the buyer and the seller see the report, they take the recommendations and estimate repairs not as a recoomendation but that they must take care of the issue now, even if it says an A/C for example, 10 yrs old with the life exspectancy of 10 yrs is recommended to be replaced,sometimes they think it means it is not fuctional or the buyer will ask for it to be replaced, also some items that might be cosmetic such as screens, some inspectors say it is a functional item and some say it is cosmetic.

Some feel the more you pay them, the more complex the report is ie example, a short written report or the long computerized ones that could take an hour to finish.

I will not recommend inspectors to my clients for one reason, if they complain the inspector did not do a good job , they come to me after the closing saying why didnt they find this or that when something breaks down after they move in, that is just my opinion.

I think the client needs an inspection that picks up the important items,what is considered important, is debated among many.

Jimmy...

I could not have said it better. I too go for quality not quantity. Being able to step back and do the report at home, also give the home inspector more time to review in his head what he has seen. I find that my reports done at client site are not as detailed as the ones I do at home, and by Detail I mean more though put into the report.

Bernard Loken, CAPM

Ellie

That's exactly what happened at my last inspection and I had never heard of it before in my 15+ years in the business. Having an alarm company come in certainly has nothing to do with the home inspection and it upset my seller that the buyer brought in a "contractor" without me notifying her.

Bernard,

Thanks for that. And I should stress to the agents reading these comments that this more thoughtful method of reporting is just like getting a little free E&O. I can say with all assurance that my clients AND their agents like very much the way I do things. First of all, I am not fumbling around in the driveway trying to toss together a report while the poor agent is looking at his watch, and the clients have to get back to work or pick up the kids. I am convinced that mistakes and miscommunications are made under these conditions.

John makes some very valid points about inspections in general, especially those addressing the difference between houses. For instance, I will pay special close attention to ALL aspects of older houses, and ESPECIALLY where updating has taken place. Sometimes that "updating" is just another word for "cover-up". Sometimes, the updating is simply honestly done incorrectly, or in a way that threatens safety. The most nervous creature on the face of the earth is a flipper who has found a buyer who has ordered a home inspection.

Deiree/Ellie

I see the alarm thing all the time, then after they move in they keep calling you to try to get you to take out a contract,they did it to me when I bought my house.

I would rather the sellers leave until the inspection is completed.

In some states it is required that a security system only be inspected by those who are certified and licensed to do so. So if the buyer wanted the security inspection done, only a licensed installer could do it (in some states). If the service was arranged and approved by the buyer and their inspector, what's the problem? Why would anyone want to forbid a buyer from having a qualified Professional inspect their security system? Why don't we start thinking about the buyer intead of all those who are going to make profit from the sale of the house?

You go, John!

So many agents are not looking after the buyer and seller...only the $.

Wizard,

Maybe yes, but I think both clients get the wrong idea from the wording in some reports example suspected leak, does that mean there is a leak or could be a leak?

What did the inspector say he meant by it, Neal?

Mr Bloom,

If moisture is detected in a wall under the Kitchen sink (for example)... was it from a leak in the

roof, leak around the window, condensation around the plumbing, a plumbing leak, or the

seal around the sink was allowing water to run down the back side of the counter top? If the

inspector guesses wrong, then he will be damned for saying something that was not really

there. If he says there may be a suspected leak, then at least he has pointed the Client in

the right direction. Again, there is so many things that are more complex than what they appear,

it would do wonders for Realtors to take a class in home inspections, instead of shooting from

the hip and thinking that they know more than the inspector. What would happen if the inspector did not catch the moisture problem at all? (Fungi, Mold, Decay, Wood Destroying Insects, etc...)

John,

My comment came from my seller, as a matter a fact we also acquire property, we always inspect no matter the situation, and we will not purchase if there are too many issues such as major structure problems, we will renovate, but not if the roof is going to fall through the home.

No disrespect to you or your industry, I also just showed a property that my buyer wants to purchase and it was being sold as-is, she wanted to bypass the inspection and I reccomended to spend the money to be sure everything was sound and she was comfortable.

Neal,

BOTH clients? Do you mean a husband and wife buyer? Just curious. It would be helpful when citing examples, if you flesh out what YOU mean. Did the "suspected leak" inspector just say there is a suspected leak, or that there is a suspected leak at (such and such location), or that there is a suspected leak at (subject location) which may cause (implications)....As has been mentioned before...it's as much about communication as anything else.

But, just for your edification, if I used the term "suspected leak", I would say where, why I suspect the leak, why the leak is just suspected, what might happen if there is one and it is not addressed, and advise the clients on what can be done about it if the suspected leak does indeed turn out to be not only suspected, but actual.

Suspected leaks can be suspected in roofing, or perhaps around flashing, or suspect wall claddings, or when the inspector finds a measure of water damage to some element and it looks like a repair has been attempted, but the attempted repair itself looks suspect. I suspect that you are probably suffering from having been subjected to a report in which the communication skills of the inspector inspecting are suspectable. Or maybe the way you interpreted it is suspect. I don't know, since you didn't quote from the suspect report item concerning the suspected leak, but, hey, this whole play on words is a hell of a lot of fun, isn't it?

Which brings the whole discussion back to the way things get communicated.

Sorry about that, the client who mentioned the suspecte leak,was the seller on my listing, the suspected leak had more to to do with an elasto coating, that was suspected of leaking through the roof, that is all the report said, we brought a roofer back in who recoated the roof still under the warranty, said it was leak free,the buyer was a separate home, all i meant was I di not want to stop an ispection because I was afraid the deal would not go through.

Georgia,

Please elaborate more on your comments about Home Inspector's being cry babies with camera's and computers, I don't understand why you would make a comment like that. Let me guess, you must be a realtor, can't tell because your hiding your identity. I am thinking you obtained your real estate license in the lower 5% of your class because you failed the I care about my client chapter in the course. All of the Realtor's I know have ethics that they follow, did you fail that too and still get your license? I think you are the one crying wolf here, maybe a home inspector did his job and you lost your commission check. I would be sorry about that, however, Home Inspectors are not hired to protect your commission they are hired to protect your client. I think I have lost all my confidence in you.

And here is another incorrect conclusion... that inspection reports are suppose to answer all questions and not raise any questions. WRONG. Inspection are a visual inspection of what is accessible only. Many times they will raise red flags that MUST be addressed by a qualified Professional in order to arrive at the final answer for the cause, extent, repair methods and materials needed, and cost of repairs. The law prohibits Inspectors from making projections about things that are not visible or making predictions about future performance or making cost analysis and instructing how repairs should be done. If the Realtor would prepare the Client for the reality of the inspection process, instead of trying to gloss over it, that would help resolve some of the fear that Clients go through. I have many Clients tell me that the more the Realtor tried to explain my report to them, the more they lost trust in the Realtor doing the talking. Sometimes Realtors are the DEAL KILLER. When the Realtor begins to attack the inspection report, the Client can see their real motives like a neon light.

ok, what about a roof that was inspected and was found to have 2 leaks, the seller than hired a roofer in to repair, the roofer actually found additional leaks and repaired them ,why wasn't the inspector able to find the additional leaks?

Mr Bloom,

You bring up an excellent point (BRAVO). This is exactly why every home inspector should instruct the Client to have a qualified Professional come in and do further inspection when the repair is made. This is EXACTLY how the inspection process should work. MANY times the Professional will indeed find more than the visual inspection done by the Inspector. The Professional is suppose to do a more exhaustive inspection and when he finds more problems, then the process has served everyone very well. Your example is a text book case of how it is taught in every home inspection training class in the country.

I conduct my inspection in accord with my SOP and report the conditions that I find. I could not care less if the person buys the home or if the real estate salesman refers me. I am paid to look at certain things and describe them and their condition in a written report.

There is no "psychology" involved in the process. There is no "deal killing". There is simply a description of a house which more times than not fails to match the description advertised.

Mr Bushart makes an excellent point. I will vouch for him as an a qualified Home Inspector. We are not in the feel good business. In fact, that was the MAIN point the prosecution used recently on a national home inspection franchise, because they taught their inspectors to try and make the Client feel good about the inspection results in order to make the Realtor happy. They lost their case because they were found trying to posture their communication in such a way, that did not benefit the Client, whom they were under contract to serve.

Let me take a guess at this one. Because the Home Inspection did his job and found some leaks. He then recommended an expert to come in for further evaluation and repair as necessary. Once a short coming has been turned over to a expert in the field it is the expert's job to fully evaluate.

So what you are telling me an ispector is not certified to tell you the amount of leaks there are?

But they can find the leaks,make their recommendation and then add an estimate of the cost, yet if they are not able to find other leaks that the roofer find, how would they know what estimate it is, what if they missed another $500 in repairs, I am just using any amount?

You justify recommended an expert to come in for further evaluation and repair ,but you cannot justify the estimate, in my opinion, if you do not find the entire problem,how can you estimate?

Mr Kenny,

You have hit the golden nail on the head!!! The home inspector is a "generalist" who only does a visual inspection (by law in most states). All further evaluations and repairs MUST be done by a qualified Professional who is an "expert" in his field. That licensed and qualified expert should be called in to do whatever invasive inspections are needed (more than just a visual inspection), discover ALL the items and RELATED items that have been affected by the problem, and make repairs as needed. That Professional should give full warranty, and a detailed receipt of all findings and repairs so the Client has someone who is accountable for anything that may go wrong in the future. The Home Inspector is just the beginning of this process, when a red flag is found.

If you would prefer a report on a home that omits deferments to licensed experts when complications are uncovered, you should advise your client to do the following:

Contract a structural engineer, a master plumber, a master electrician, a roofing expert, a siding expert, and the contractor who initially installed the heating and air conditioning system. Each will come out and spend the time to crawl through the house, compile their findings and provide a report.

This report will be written in the language of the author, so your client will need someone to help him interpret the findings and he should be prepared to pay several thousands of dollars for this evaluation.

...or he can hire a generalist (like me) to give his impressions of the house and to defer to the licensed expert in those cases where a certain condition is unclear and could possibly require extensive repair or replacement.

Bravo to you, John, and to you too, Neal! John, for so eloquently explaining, and Neal for your understanding. We inspectors get a little itchy around the collar about this "deal killer" thing, and we repsond in different ways. Neal, the vast majority of us are not just recycled hammer swingers and wire pullers...most of us are actually pretty smart, and educated. I also think we get a little touchy sometimes when we feel our intelligence is being insulted. But we're all pretty good at making observations....that's our business. Neal, if I were you, I'd put the inspector who only found two of several leaks on my short list!

Like I said, I never mentioned the word deal killer in any of my comments, there are plenty of realtors and mortgage brokers I could put in that category.

As far as the hiring a specialists for one item, buyers rarely bring in one person for one specific issue.

Mr Bloom,

Most state STANDARDS OF PRACTICE and National Home Inspection Associations SOP's do not allow a home inspector to make repair estimates. I have been a contractor and in construction for over 25 years. If a home inspector thinks he can give you a cost estimate base on only a VISUAL inspection, that covers hundreds of items in a couple hours, then that estimate is flawed from it's origin. It takes an exhaustive inspection by an EXPERT in the field of those repairs, to make a proper cost estimate. Anything else, in most SOP, is illegal and incomplete.

Well almost every inspection report I see has some sort of estimate on repairs, I guess most of the inspection companies here in Florida must be illegal?

Mr Bloom,

Your example of a home Inspector finding limited leak problems and then the Roofer finding even more, is the very reason the SOP, in the nation, are moving to the idea that it is unwise and incomplete for general home Inspectors to give out cost estimates, while shooting from the hip so to speak. I cannot speak for all 50 states, but it is not recommended in most states and in most of your major Home Inspection Associations. Some states are still struggling with the home Inspectors giving out bids and doing the repairs also, which is a conflict of interest.

Mr. McKenna is correct on that one. Although some mortgage companies, brokers, clients,etc ask for repair estimates, home inspectors are not "Repair Estimators". Although I am capable of preparing a cost estimate, that is outside the scope of home inspections, and also if I am calling in an expert for evaluation why would I put a price on it?

Ive been inspecting in Florida for over 12 years and have never given cost estimates. Mainly because I do not assume that responsibility for all the reasons already stated. None of the inspectors I personally know in my region of the State give estimates. I do understand there are inspectors particularly in the southern end of the State that do that, but it is my also my understanding that it is "expected" of them down there by the Realtors and the customers. Home inspectors are tripping over each other in that end of the State, not so much up here in the panhandle although it is getting crowded. I do not set fees and costs for contractors just as I do not expect them to set my fees.

Because Home Inspections are non-invasive it would most likely be an inaccurate estimate anyway that is why we call in experts. A home inspector does not look behind the wall, a expert may rip the wall apart to find the problem.

Mr. Bloom,

In Illinosi where I am from anyone can go into the state website and pull up the rules and regulations for Home Inspectors. You might consider going to Florida's website and pulling up there so you can better understand the role of the Home Inspector.

John I give you an A++ today for your blog. Excellent topic.

Hello John small world fancy meeting you here.

I would make a small comment here as I live on both sides of this discussion. Have been an inspector for 10 years and am married to a Real Estate Agent for the last 39 years. I am all about ethics and have viewed this Real estate V/S Home inspectors agenda for many years. I am of the opinion that Real estate agents should educate themselves as to The standards of practice for home inspectors. Home inspectors should also educate themselves as to what a real estate agent endures to receive a commision. I have actually had people say well the agent just placed a sign in the front yard and collected the comission. If they only knew half of the real story as I hear it at the dinner table.

There is no reason in Gods green acres that Real Estate Agents and Home inspectors being the professionals that we are suppose to be can not all work together as it should be. We are all grown up folks and we should be very aware that there is good and bad in all professions. I personally just try to avoid the less than professionals.

Mr. Bottger,

I can appreciate your comments. I have a sister and two sister in-laws who are realtors, and a brother in law who is an appraiser. I see what my family has endured in their professions. Driving around endlessly, finding out that the client has another agent they are working with and then the dreaded house that just won't sell, I know my sister has struggled in this business. It is a tough business for all and I applaud all who stick with it. Home Inspectors, like realtors get protective of their profession when they are misunderstood. Sometime hopefully we will all understand each others roles with more respect.

Mr Captain,

Anything said on this forum or the NACHI forum is open to everyone to read. What are you talking about?

MAR

2007

I believe the vast majority of Realtors are doing the right thing...as are the vast majority of Home Inspectors.

A home inspection is just one piece of the puzzle that is known as a Real Estate transaction. I prefer not to jump up on a high horse and imagine that I am the most important piece. I have my place...that place is to look for, recognize, and identify problems and potential problems with a home. If I can help my client make an informed decision in the purchase of a property, I have done my job. That is all I want to do.

I believe that Home Inspectors and Realtors can, and quite often do, compliment each other. I believe that situation is more prevelant than oftentimes related on the WWW. There are many many Home Inspectors and Realtors doing their jobs, feeding their families, helping buyers and sellers realize their dreams that don't even go on the internet and grind axes.

I just want to do a good job for as many folks as I can fit into my schedule.

Can't we all just get along?

Mr Captain,

I see you too promote your associations, and so does every home inspector. I have invited Realtors and Inspector alike to join in this discussion on open forums. What is the problem? Nothing hidden here. If you have something solid to say, please do. Come out and state your point, instead of implying a hidden innuendo. Do you have an opinion on the thread being discussed? If it will help us move on with this thread, I will confess that I do promote the standards of practice and ethics stated by NACHI (the National Association of Certified Home Inspectors). I would hope all inspectors endorse some kind of SOP and Ethics.

Mr Neumann,

Thank you for your comments. I have not read on this thread of anyone expressing a hatred of Realtors. Please refrain from extreme statements that could inflame hurt feelings for no reason. The discussion must remain civil. Before you take the moral high ground, just tell us about your opinion and that is enough.

One reason I do not like to recommend inspectors , I thought Mr. Bushart's remark about how he could care less if they buy the house, he just goes and does the job was a bit tastless.

Again never did I ever tell a buyer not to hire an inspector, nor do just think about me commission,we all make money here, but the clients interest comes first.

Mr. McKenna

I expressed my opinion in a thoughtful and intelligent manner....please do not take offense at opposing viewpoints as I didn't mean to be inflammatory....I will remove my post now.

Thank you for your honesty.

Mr Bloom,

Do you think a Client really wants to hire an inspector that has a preference that they want sale to go through and that they write their report with that slant in mind? The code of ethics demands that Inspectors are to be impartial. It protects everyone in the end, even Realtors. By the time a Realtor's Customer makes it all the way through the buying process and to the day of the inspection, the Realtor is on the edge of his seat, because the Customer is about to meet the Inspector. The Inspector on the other hand, should not approach the inspection with the concern that SEVERAL INTERESTED PARTIES want the house to sell. The Inspector is instructed by law and moral imperative to describe the conditions of the house, regardless of the pressure from those INTERESTED PARTIES. If the inspector seek to please the Realtor, he has become a whore and seeks his own gain and not the Client, who hired him . By the very nature of these pressures on the Realtors, it is common that they seek out the "friendly" Inspector and therein is the problem that infects our industry. Even a little pressure on the Inspectors mind can make him omit certain things, or posture certain wording, that may cause the Client damage. I hear the horror stories on my end all the time.

Mr Captain,

I have never sent you ANY emails. You must be thinking of someone else. You are mistaken. But I do note that on your site you list your associations, like most inspectors do. This thread is not about bashing one association or another. Please try and stay on the topic. Thanks. If you do not like the subject on this thread, then perhaps you could post on another one that you do like. I could delete you if I like, but I chosen to leave this thread open because there is nothing to hide. There is no hidden agenda that needs your dire warnings to protect us. Relax.

McKenna

Wrote

"it is common that they seek out the "friendly" Inspector and therein is the problem that infects our industry."

I agree 100%. So why don't you purpose to your organization to take the Realtor out of the equations?

Mr. Captain; As an inspector viewing both sides of this discussion I see no solution to taking the realtors out of the equation.

anyone realtor or inspector with any seniority has observed how the system works.

The realtor presents a list of company's with three or more names.

The client gets this glassy look in their eyes looking back at the realtor and states I don't know any of these companys do you (the realtor) know any of them. The realtor then states I know So and so and they do a good inspection. So that is how a large% of inspections come to be I have observed this time and time again. Am I complaining NO have been on both sides of this process. Do I have a solution NO. If you have a solution lets hear it.

What are your feelings on this issue? What do Realtors really want from
home inspectors?

My list of inspectors are about 5 and they include the inspectors that I have met through the business. Inspectors that have done their jobs and taken care of the buyer. Have I had deals fall through because of the inspection reports with any of these 5 inspectors, yes. Do I still have them on my list of inspectors, yes. Do I believe that it was the inspectors "fault" that the deal fell through, that they intentionally tried to find problems to sabotage the transaction, no way!

To me it's not about making the deal work, it's about making sure my buyers have good homes and as few surprises as possible with the home later in the futrue. I want for them what I'd want for myself. Ultimately it's up to the buyer who they choose, but when they ask me which of the 5, I do give them the friendliest inspectors out of the 5 that I know, why? Because to me the "friendliest" inspectors will actually keep the buyer informed, not just of what problems they see with the home, but of what type maintenance they should do periodically. These inspectors take the time to educate the buyer, they do not just do quickie inspections, but actually care enough and are "friendly" enough to speak to the buyer and seller (if present) explaining problems they see and explaining why it is a problem or could be a potential problem. I am not an inspector, though I have learned much through the years, my one hat is plenty for me to wear and I do not claim to know what an inspector knows. I like inspectors that do not assume that I will be able to explain to the buyer what they are referring too on the inspection report. Though I'm present at the inspections I am not on the heels of the inspector seeing everything that he/she sees, so when they explain to me what they've found I can ask questions myself if they are open and friendly.

What I do not like about an inspector is for him/her to tell a buyer how too negotiate after inspections, that is definitely NOT their job. How an inspector can tell a buyer that they should ask for this, or that or not buy the house unless they get this amount of money for repairs, etc., IMO this is not what the inspector should be doing. It is not the inspectors job to negotiate repairs, especially since they have no idea about the contract, no knowledge of the people involved, etc.; just as I do not have the knowledge and the experience to do inspections.

I do not want an inspector to "make" anything work, that would be detrimental to my buyers. Treat the buyer, seller, and Realtor with respect, do not make problems; but find the problems, if any, explain the problems to the buyer / seller and report them so that we can then do our jobs as Realtors.

I am late getting in on this and I haven't read all of the comments but i can add my two cents worth.

I want my home inspector to be honest but not alarmist. I have a home inspector whom I LOVE. He writes an awesome inspection report. He is very thorough. BUT he scares my clients sometimes. He is so used to the business or doesn't have the tact, or whatever but he can scare the pants off someone in an instant. Readingit on the report shouldn't soften something but his reports are always much easier on paper.

I don't want the cosmetic stuff to come up. I don't want predictions (ie, this roof will last you another four years...) No no no!!

Honest but not scary.

Sabrina,

Any good inspector would love your approach. Any good inspector would not get into negotiations at any level. In most states where inspectors are licensed, that is actually against the law! A good inspector will do everything you mentioned that you like. I just returned from an inspection on a home that has issues, but none that should scare anyone off. Good inspectors know exactly where you are coming from. There is always a way to address issues without being an alarmist. It all goes back to communication. I have the benefit of an expensive education at a very reputable small liberal arts college. Many, if not most, inspectors don't. There is a shortage of continuing education courses for inspectors in the area of communication/report writing, and I believe this is something the industry needs to address. There are many technically sound inspectors out there who would benefit. On the other hand, my experience has been that there are a number of agents who could use it, too!

I'm not there to tell someone not to buy a home or property they have already decided they want.

I'm there to show them professionally, what it is they will be getting.

I do this work because I like to help people & I'm good at it.

Communication is everything.

I wasn't logged in so my identity didn't come up.

I think we are all (well, most of us!) beginning to agree to the importance of effective communication in agent/client/inspector relations! See what we can accomplish when we get together and iron these things out? Now, where's that dang smiley face........?

Good post Sabrina Fokas,

BRAVO...

In other words, all things being equal... you would prefer the Inspector with good communication skills. Just one point I might add. It is against the law for the Realtor to direct the Client toward a certain Inspector (in most states that have licensing laws). Even if the Realtor feels they have made a good choice, it is the Client who is suppose to choose their Inspector. The is a BIG road block to most Realtors and they WILL NOT give up the perceived right to direct the Client to the "friendly" Inspector, no matter what the law says or the moral implications it creates. Of course, if something goes south, most Realtors will have already created plausible denial. I am just stating the facts, that perhaps most would not like stated, but if still goes on all the time.

To Mr Captain,

No one is suggesting that Realtors should, or could, or ever will be cut out of the equation. There will always be a working relationship with the Inspector and the Realtor, because they share the same Client. This discussion is about that relationship, not about bashing any Inspector Associations.

Hey Good News!!!

I just had a Realtor add me to their group associates page. Someone like me! Thanks.

The home inspector carries a HUGE monkey on their shoulders that can last way past the inspection period, for the most part, years after the inspection. This is the worry of being sued for missing something (an issue) or not applying enough emphasis on an area of concern. I think most inspectors are honest and strive to do the best job possible for the clients involved, after all, it is their investmentdollars at stake. Sometimes this burden can make some inspectors over zealous in our report comments but I cant imagine an inspector going out of his/her way and try to "kill a deal". Thats just dishonesty all the way around, and what would be the point, really? Its a fine balance act we walk everyday where you can fall on either side of the rope.

I inspected a house one time and I stated that the electrical panel had the wrong size wires and that the metal roof was fastened with lead headed nails that were popping up (visible moisture had leaked into the Bathroom floor area from the roof dripping).

The Realtor got mad at me for being so nit-picky. About 2 months later the Client called and said they wanted to sue me because the incorrect wire size in the panel almost caused the house to burn down, and the floor in the Bathroom had a decay spot in it now. After showing her the text in my report, she calmed down and realized that her Realtor had explained away my comments as being too alarmist and those items were no big deal. The last I heard, she was going after the Realtor. It pays to do your job right. I am still the Deal Killer in the Realtors eyes, but I sleep good.

Bottger

If the NAR would prohibit its members from recommending home inspectors I think that would handle the situation.

McKenna

I am suggesting and recommending that for the process to work professionally and ethically Realtors should not be recommending home inspectors.

And do you have some sort of complex about the organizations you belong to.

Hey John, I'm a mortgage broker, and am chiming in here because we, too, have a real stake in this issue. The Realtors above have said some truly correct things, some bordering on greatness (Particularly Rita's comments - inspectors should be able to evaluate and specialists bid and repair) . The big point many revolve on is communication with them. What makes this important from my mortgage point of view. is that I have to sell the property to the lender. If an inspection contingency is included in the purchase contract the lender will generally ask for a copy of the report. The vast majority of cases this is not a problem, but occasionally it is and then it can be a big one.

To a big extent, what I'm advocating is the importance of communicating with the lending side as well as the Realtor, and helping us all to get on the same page regarding inspection issues.

IMHO, the key to a successful inspection is in the report (of course knowledge as well).

Use big words/phrases that they have never heard and your going to put fear into a client that may be purchasing their first home or 10th home. I've seen reports that a seasoned structural engineer would consider "overkill". There's no reason for it.

1. State the Facts, no age limits, no recommendations, just the facts Ma'am.

2. Explain the facts at a level the client will understand, both in the report and in person. If they couldn't attend the inspection, make it a point to meet with them to go over the report. Don't just say here you go, have a nice life. Once they sign my agreement, they are my client from that point on, not just for 3-4 hours during the inspection

3. Keep in contact with them.

4. Real Estate has a very,very fine line. If you can hover on the side of being decent and a responsible inspector there is no such thing as a deal killer. If your rude, blunt and just plain arogant towards a client or the realtor, go get what you deserve.

I've worked in many careers over the years and realized and discovered many things. The one thing that I truly believe in is the fact that you treat everyone in the transaction as YOUR customer, not just the one handing you the check. The buyer, the seller, the selling agent, the buying agent and sometimes lenders, you are all my customer and will be treated as I would expect to be treated.

I have several really good inspectors that I like to use. Do I recommend them to my clients -- in a way. I have a list of Inspectors & their phone numbers. When I give the list to my clients as we're preparing to write an offer/contract, their eyes glaze over -- "we don't know any of these inspectors -- you just pick one for us" they say. I, then, tell them that all of these inspectors do a very thorough inspection at a fair price -- however, if they would like to call several of them and talk to them prior to hiring one they should do so. I explain to them, that I cannot recommend just one inspector.

Do I have my favorite inspectors -- yes, most definitely. They are the ones who take the time either as they are inspecting the property or after inspecting the property to walk my clients thru the house, discussing any "problems" or "potential problems" with the house. They may recommend they have a licensed contractor look at the problem to determine what exactly needs to be done to repair the issue and to provide an estimate for the repairs. I've never had an inspector provide any of my clients with an estimate of cost of repair. If the AC is not working properly, it's not the inspectors job to determine the cause -- his job is to tell us the AC is not working properly. It's up to the Buyer's to request that the Seller's have a thorough inspection of the AC/HV System to determine why it's not working properly and provide the Seller's and/or Buyer's a with a report showing the exact problem(s) and an estimate for repair or replacement.

I've only had 1 deal fall thru because of the Inspection -- and I hate to admit it but I wasn't at the Inspection with my clients so I don't know exactly what the Inspector said to them or how he said it -- last time I haven't been to an Inspection.

Great post Judi !

I think it is extremely important for agents to be present at the time of the inspection if it's possible. Communication is key with everything. When I complete my inspections I walk everyone through the house explaining what I've included in my report.

This is why I don't have a Supra Key or any sort of access to lock boxes, it ensures you that an agent will at least be there initially. Many do leave and come back, which is fine with me.

Need to clarify something in my earlier post...my list of Inspectors that I give to my clients has been prepared by the company that I was with previously. They compiled the list based on proof that the Inspectors had up-to-date licenses and up-to-date E & O Insurance. I'm always adding Inspectors to my list -- they only get removed when we can no longer contact them -- a non-working phone no.

There is one Inspector who is referred to as a "deal breaker". He inspected a New Construction property for one of my clients -- 6 hrs. later he had a huge list which my client gave to his builder for repairs. They corrected almost every item on the list. Postponed closing 2 weeks while the builder made all of the repairs. Sometimes I wish I could recommend this Inspector to my clients -- he's very thorough.

A good home inspector writes a quality report based on facts. If the facts are ugly, my buyer needs to know it up front. I think deals are "killed" more often than not by agents who are lack strong communication skills or are poor negotiators. Findings on an inspection report are what they are: a guide and a "heads up". I trust my group of home inspectors because they have a history of doing complete and accurate reports allowing my clients ample time to request additional inspections if necessary.

Mr Captain,

I agree that Realtors should not refer Home Inspectors... and... NO I do not have a complex about the inspection association I belong to. But I am not going to drift on this thread and start an association bashing contest. This is why I resist answering your efforts to stray from topic. If you would like to set up a separate debate forum (your choice) we can engage that topic at another time. Thanks... Also... I received a copy of the email that was sent to you from another person (not me) and if correct, all they asked was that you stay on topic. Please.

Terry Schallert

I agree, we need communication. Perhaps this forum will be a drop in that bucket.

Judi Morgan

Great post (BRAVO)... I noticed that you encourage your Client to call the Inspectors on the list and resist the temptation to refer your favorite one. Well done!!!

Well, then.....except for the occasional attempt to change the subject, we seem to all be in agreement.....EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION is the answer! Hats off to John, Judy, Scott, Kelly, Brian, Peter, Sabrina, Tony, and anyone else who has had something positive to add.

John.....nobody will ever win THAT argument...

Kelly Kilpatrick

You Go Girl!!! Great post. Yes... Inspection reports can be ugly, and that makes the good Realtor negotiator shine when they can pull things together and deal with the repair issues, with all the parties involved. No one ever said being a Realtor was easy, and as you said, some deals are killed when the Realtor does not know how to negotiate properly. Don't always blame the Inspector. Great post.

Touching another point that was mentioned earlier that relates to communication...

I do not like to place a summery at the end of my inspection report, because I have seen too many Realtors use that summery to by-pass the entire inspection report. They (some) sit down with the poor Client and interpret the summery in a watered down fashion and in order to help the deal close faster. Again... I am sorry to bring up the bad stuff, but I have seen so much deception and manipulation I could go on for hours.

And...

There are MANY Inspectors out there that a are very needy for work and will say just about anything to make a Realtor happy. I say this with embarrassment and wish my fellow Inspectors were not so corrupt sometimes. And, yes I have seen Inspectors cover their reports with so much "canned text" and "legal speak" that you could not find the items that needs repaired. So I am not coming against Realtors only. We Inspectors have our own breed of bad apples also.

And...

Concerning the slander against Inspectors who achieve the designation of Certified Master Inspector... you can read the details (if your interested) at the CMI web site. It is a designation based on education and experience. Based on known figures in the industry, approx. 5% of the current Inspectors might qualify for this designation. As some of you can see, there is a fringe element in our industry that loves to bash competing associations as "my group is better than your group". Certified Master Inspector Web Site - http://www.certifiedmasterinspector.org/

Great topic, John. As a NJ home inspector I appreciated all the comments made by the Realtors. Communication is KEY!!!

NACHI Rocks!!

Hi John,

How are you doing? Thanks for mentioning Activerain on TIJ. I've come to make this site a regular for me.

I reposted a blog that I wrote a few days ago. It's short and sweet, but I believe it has relevancy to the subject of "DEAL KILLERS".

The title of the blog is THE INSPECTOR'S ROLE

I welcome any critique

Steve

MAR

2007

A lot of reading here.

Now for my two cents worth.

An inspector is not a deal killer if he is thorough. AS some remarks have stated, some inspectors itemize everything and tell the client to renegotiate. That is so wrong. That inspector should be reported to any professional association he is with. That is not his job.

However I (and probably not the only one) have had a couple Realtors call me before to advise me of the house and how it should not "fail" inspection. That is not their job. But then my job is not to pass or fail and inspection.

AS an inspector, our job is simply (and I mean simply) state what may need attention on a house. Many times the home buyer will not understand how to repair an item, but they will understand if a good inspector can tell them an item is something that is a real concern or just a regular item to schedule.

One thing I do like is if the agent is onsite with the client. One agent gave the buyer the code to open the lock-box and never came onsite! He went back and told her I said he had to spend $27000 on windows and to renegotiate. When I did a followup call, she was furious. I advised this is not how I operate and she should have been there. ( I did not mention how the Real Estate Board would have viewed her giving the buyer the code to get in someone else's house.)

Another agent called me to tell me the house was to pass inspection (his own house) as he advised the client that he would be fixing a couple of shingles on the roof. The back wall had a foot of ice on the outside and water dripping in five place on the inside. A couple of shingles???? hmmmmm I advised the buyer, that the whole roof structure needed some professional attention.

I do have agents that refer me when their clients tell them to arrange the inspection. One agent teamed with another agent and she sent him on an inspection with me. They both told me afterwards, that the whole inspection, he was sending her text messages that I was way to thorough and going to blow the deal. She kept telling him "Wait until he reviews the report at the end." At the end I explained the report to the client. He turned to the agent and asked.. "Where do you want me to sign the waiver?" Two items I mentioned were the skylights, both were leaking and the seller had tried to cover them up. A week later the two agents called me for a meeting. The new agent told me the buyer was upset the seller was very sneaky. He told them both the inspector pointed out things he would never have known until major costs were inevitable. He told both of them, they should never use anyone else. He said the way I told him, did show there were expensive items would be needed, but now he knew.

I now have two agents that trust me, and that is what is important.

It is simple. A home inspector's loyalty is to the house. We evaluate the house and give the facts based on our expertise. It is the clients responsibility to use the information in the report to understand what problems exist and what they should budget for in the future. The important thing is that the client now has facts they did not have access to before. Behold, the power of a home inspection.

I do not answer the "Would you buy this house?" question. I do not give legal advice or attempt to give the buyer renegotiating power. I treat every inspection as though the buyer is committed to the purchase and then inform them of what they are getting into, based on my report.

If it is broken, it is reported. If it is beyond it's designed lifespan, I tell the client to budget for a replacement in the near future. If the client wants cosmetic items reported, they have that option, for a fee. It is not the inspector's or realtor's place to decide what is and what is not important. It is the clients. Give them the information and let them run with it, and of course call me back if they have any questions.

MAR

2007

While I guess we are all reluctent to recommend any home inspector because of the liability a lot of agents think that by recommending three names they are not liable and it can not be said that the Realtor has any relationship with which ever home inspector. I don't get that, Realtors can have a relationship with three home inspectors so how is that better.

Miriam,

You are so correct! An agent can have a relationship with this and more inspectors. And they may not be good. Basically there is no hard and fast solution that will be and end to all the problems we see.

It comes down to... The realtor who wants a fantastic reputation, need to find a fantastic Home Inspector... like me. (I am so humble). Realtors need to find inspector who will report what they see , but know how to explain it to the client in a way as not to scare them. Or find an Inspector who will not go into a Realtors territory, trying to tell the client to renegotiate from their findings. The inspector needs to realize they should pass this area to the Realtor and respect their position.

Ahhhhh for a perfect world..............

MAR

2007

I am a Realtor. I am also a licensed Master Electrician who owns a contracting business. I have been involved in the construction of houses for almost 17 years.

The only problem I have with inspectors is they frequently do not know what they are talking about. I have seen them called "Generalists" in this blog. Where I come from we call that a "Jack of all trades, and Master of none." There are a lot of inspectors out there who were previously "builders" (which is infinitely more profitable than inspecting). Makes you wonder why they gave up building??

Many of the inspector's reports that I have seen include a lot of conjecture and opinion. A lot of the use of words like might, maybe, may, could, or in my opinion. I could have written that report from the office! "The electrical panel may need to be replaced." "The roof might leak." "The basement walls appear as though they may have leaked in the past." "The air conditioner is old and should be checked by someone who actually knows what they are talking about!!!" Rarely do you find words like is, are, will, or does. I have frequently seen electrical issues called out as major ordeals that were not really even an issue. We frequently get agents who call us with the inspection that was referred to an actual authority on electrical issues. When they get faxed to us we usually have a good laugh before we call the agent and let them know that most of what is on the report is not a big deal. It just seems crazy to me to call someone an inspector who has probably never installed an electrical panel, troubleshot an air conditioner, or replaced an attic fan.

The word inspector implies that you are an authority on something when the fact is you are not actually an authority on anything. I recommend that my clients have their inspections done by contractors. Most of them will do an inspection in their area of expertise for around 50.00. The average cost of a home inspection in this area is 350.00. Rather than paying one fee to someone who has most likely never worked in the field on any of the things he/she is inspecting. I can hire a licensed electrician, a licensed plumber, a licensed HVAC co., an actual roofer, a siding guy, a window co, and a basement waterproofing co for about the same price! Does it take more effort to coordinate these inspections, yes? Is it worth it, YES!

My question to any inspector would be, "what did you do before you were an inspector?" "How did you become qualified to offer an opinion on so many different areas of construction?" "Will you offer my client definitive answers, or just more of the uncertainty they already had?!?!?"

I have two of questions for the "Master Electrician". What electrical deficiencies do you "have a good laugh over before you call the agent and let them know that it is not a big deal". In my profession we call that irresponsible. When you tell the people that those electrical concerns are no big deal, do you put that in writing????

We do address them in writing, and send copies of the code book pages that addres their situation. One frequently occurring example that we giggle at (I am not sure what part of a private laugh is irresponsible?)would be the outdoor receptacle that is not GFCI protected. Usually when we get there we find it to be protected in another area of the house. Just because that receptacle is not a GFCI does not mean it is not protected! Another example would be the number of phone calls we get about re-wiring an entire house because it has AL wiring in it. The potential owner, after being scared to death by the home inspector, almost always will lose sleep over this one. The fact is that AL wiring is still used in homes today. In fact it is still what we feed services and range receptacles with. Does AL wiring require extra care and maintainance, yes. Does it automatically qualify your home to be declared a book of matches, hardly! The house has not burned down in thirty years, what makes you think it would happen now? Another example would be "inspectors" getting information on current code changes and trying to hold a thirty year old home to that standard. (For instance AL wiring.) That is what we call irresponsible!

Couldn't agree more! A home inspector should know how to test a GFCI receptacle, and should know where it is controlled from. But that requires one to be at the house to know that it is controlled at the garage outlet or in the panel. As far as AL wiring, absolutely. Is it stranded or single core, are the switches and outlets AL rated, do pig-tails exist? It's all about education and knowledge!!

AL-CU

http://www.idealindustries.com/wt/TwistOnWireConnectors.nsf

It is rare at best for an inspector (in this area) to pull a device out of the wall and check to see how it is wired (much less all of them which would be required to determine if they are all AL rated). There are a lot of homes out there that are on a two wire system w/ grounded receptacles in place that inspectors pass because the device has a false ground on it by wrapping the neutral around the ground. All of the aluminum wire we install is stranded. What pigtails are you referring to? That GFCI could also be controlled in the basement, a closet, a bedroom, a bathroom, etc. There is no code dictating where the protection is located, only that it be protected!

"It's all about education and knowledge!!" That's my point. If I'm still learning on a daily basis new things about electricity, how can one individual keep up with all of the knowledge that would be required to be a good inspector? The electrical code changes every three years, and I am sure the other trade code books are similar (including the building code) There is no way you can keep up with the required education and knowledge.

"how can one individual keep up with all of the knowledge that would be required to be a good inspector?"

That is the reason that I do not do mold, radon, termites, and other inspections.

A Home inspection is a non-invasive visual examination of a residential dwelling, performed for a fee, which is designed to identify observed material defects within specific components of said dwelling. Components may include any combination of mechanical, structural, electrical, plumbing, or other essential systems or portions of the home, as identified and agreed to by the Client and Inspector, prior to the inspection process.

A home inspection is intended to assist in evaluation of the overall condition of the dwelling. The inspection is based on observation of the visible and apparent condition of the structure and its components on the date of the inspection and not the prediction of future conditions.

A home inspection will not reveal every concern that exists or ever could exist, but only those material defects observed on the day of the inspection.

A Material defect is a condition with a residential real property or any portion of it that would have a significant adverse impact on the value of the real property or that involves an unreasonable risk to people on the property. The fact that a structural element, system or subsystem is near, at or beyond the end of the normal useful life of such a structural element, system or subsystem is not by itself a material defect.

An Inspection report shall describe and identify in written format the inspected systems, structures, and components of the dwelling and shall identify material defects observed. Inspection reports may contain recommendations regarding conditions reported or recommendations for correction, monitoring or further evaluation by professionals, but this is not required.

Master Electrician,

Do the specialists you have for inspections only have the inspection in mind, or do they have an interest in repair work as well. With a home inspector, we are trained and educated in finding defects and then relating that information to the client so they can use that to make an informed decision on their potential purchase. I see a conflict of interest in your method.

Now if you can find the amount of specialists needed to perform a complete inspection, and do it for the same price, go ahead. But your list should include the following; electrician, plumber, hvac technician, structural engineer, wall cladding specialist, landscape contractor, pool contractor, safety inspector, roofer, garage door contractor. This doesn't include a general inspection of the interior for safety and workmanship.

Unless you can prove that we are not continually enhancing our education is, assumptions should not be made. We are educated and informative, and true, we are not specialist in everything. We do specialize in finding defects and informing our clients. You are advising people to avoid home inspectors, which is not good advice. Perhaps that is why you choose to be anonymous.

Home inspectors have a loyalty to the house with conflict of interest relating to repair work money. As far as being "jack of all trades", I agree with you. As far as being "master of none", I beg to differ.

Master Elecrician,

In regards to education!!!

NACHI...........

http://www.nachi.org/cont_education.htm

I am not saying you are not educated. There's no doubt you know more about houses than I do. What I am saying is that I don't see how you can possibly be educated enough to do what people expect you to do. The cotractor's do have an interest in performing the repair work ,but they are also versed enough in their field of expertise to know wether or not it actually needs done not just pass the buck to a second individual who will also charge you to come take a look at it. Don't put words in my mouth, I do not recomend that my homebuyers not use an inspector. If they ask, I offer my opinion. Most of my buyers choose to go the home inspector route which is fine with me. It just bothers me that homeowners believe that when the inspector (again a title that carries authority) tells them everthing is fine they believe it! The poster after you provided us a list of all of the things you are and are not required to do. People think they are geting a thorough home inspection, and that can not possibly be the case. Look at all of the things you are not required to do! Do you make the buyers aware of all of the things you are not going to look at? How can you tell someone the fireplace is fine if you are not even required to the following:

A. Inspect the flue or vent system.
B. Inspect the interior of chimneys or flues, fire doors or screens, seals or gaskets, or mantels.
C. Determine the need for a chimney sweep.
D. Operate gas fireplace inserts.
E. Light pilot flames.
F. Determine the appropriateness of such installation.
G. Inspect automatic fuel feed devices.
H. Inspect combustion and/or make-up air devices.
I. Inspect heat distribution assists whether gravity controlled or fan assisted.
J. Ignite or extinguish fires.
K. Determine draft characteristics.
L. Move fireplace inserts, stoves, or firebox contents.
M. Determine adequacy of draft, perform a smoke test or dismantle or remove any component. N. Perform an NFPA

You can not! All you can tell them is the fireplace appears fine. Who couldn't tell them that?!? As far as being a jack of all trades and master of none, I'll go back to what I know. Do you own a copy of the National Electric Code? How well do you know the National Electric Code? I'm willing to bet not very well (it's an awfully big book!). If that's the case how can you do the thorough inspection that potential homeowners think they are getting? I'll bet that you have a handful of things that you know to look for, and that there is a bushel basket of things that could fall through the cracks. Again, this is not a knock on any inspectors. I just believe that what you do is misrepresented to buyers, and that what you do is not what they think they are getting. It wasn't even until this year that our inspectors were required to be licensed by the state!! Anyone could have stuck a sign on their truck and declared themselves as qualified!!

One last thing, a landscape contractor, a garage door contractor? Are you kidding me? You're not even required to look up the chimney!!

The wirenuts that someone referenced earlier are one of the biggest causes of fires in a house with AL wiring! The De-Ox inside the wire nut dries up and then you have a direct CU to AL connection. This causes massive corrosion which causes heat which causes fire. If your recomending these to people, pleas stop immediately!!!

These are the type of connector you should be recommending if you are advising people to use CU pigtails to their devices. They are called AlumiConn and are pricey, but they won't burn your house down!!

Master Electrician,

I understand your point. You have a problem with our title of inspectors. I am proud to call myself a home inspector and fell justified for doing so. I happen to feel that your expectation of an inspector is on the extreme side. Now we may not have the depth of knowledge that a technician in each field may possess, but we have the knowledge to find defects. That is what you have to understand. We find defects. Some inspectors will get by using the minimum amount of knowledge necessary, and some can't get enough education. It is unfair to discount our service because of your expectations.

On the other point, every client of mine receives a copy of the State of Arizona Standards of Professional Practice, which I am required to adhere to by law. Can you see through walls and inform the client of a potential arc hazard? Neither can we? What I tell my clients is that "I can not see into the future nor do I have x-ray vision." A home inspection is visual, and it is there if a consumer desires. With me, they know what one is. Perhaps you have dealt with an inspector who does not properly prepare their clients. It is my opinion that this type of inspector is rare.

True, sometimes a home inspection is misrepresented, but in most cases it is not the inspector to blame. I know I explain what I do and don't do. You seem to expect an inspector to go through the house with a blueprint and examine every inch of every component, which is not feasible.

You would be surprised as to the amount of knowledge a home inspector has in their head. We inspect each component of a dwelling representatively. Now if you feel that is unacceptable, I respect your opinion, but what makes life and this country great is that we do not have to agree with each other.

By the way, I do own a copy of the NEC- and the IRC, IBC, IPC, and the IMC. I am currently enrolled in classes which cover the new 2006 editions. This does not mean I perform code inspections. But it does mean I have the knowledge to give a thorough inspection.

I am curious though, do you have the same opinion towards municipal inspectors?

Enjoying the debate. And I am sorry for the landscaping and garage door contractor comments, but we do inspect the operation of the door and it's safety features and we do inspect the grading and drainage of the site. Like I said, you would be surprised what we have to know.

Boy, what a cat fight!

I gave a few comments at the very begining, all I will say is, the buyer is entitled to inspect regardless,it is their right, whatever the limitations are or whether it is as-is, I still advise my buyers to inspect, even through I am usually on the listing side most of the time.

But from what I am reading , some inspectors have certifications and some do not, it seems to be different per state. Some know what they are doing while others just decieded to be one.

My beef is when they write in an estimate and from what I read,some do ,some do not, some are really licensed or ceritified and some are not, some go over every inch or scope and some do not.

Some this is cosmetic, some say it is functional, example a screen with a rip could be cosmetic while I have seen it considered functional, some realtors think inspectors are our enemies and some do not, some inspectors do not care if the buyer closes on the house because they are just doing the job of what they are paid for, some actually really care the deal goes through.

Yes it is the truth, some realtors are on pins and needles waiting for the report and some sit quietly and deal with it.

I think this debate is way out of hand, and I do believe there some really goos inspectors and some that should not even be qualified to carry a screw driver.

The best one is when you ask them how everything went before reading the report , they say everything is fine, then you see $3,000 estimates on the report.

The bottom line is the inspection process is a given, but I do believe in most cases legit, but they do get all parties nervous.

And last, I purposely would not reccomend any to my clients, I let them choose, this way I have no liability if they think they paid too much or they did not think it was thorough enough or too much nit picking.

I would rather sell real estate and deal with the issues when they come up and not concentrate all my energies on that, if a contract has terms and conditions they have to be met if all parties sign.

I think it is a discredit to our industry to argue and fight, and as much as I am on one side, We have to co-exsist no matter what the case is.

So this is my opinion. like it or not.

Interesting that some of the above post are about wanting an Inspector who should be more exhaustive and detailed in his inspection methods... and yet what I hear from most Realtors is the opposite. Most of the Realtors I know, would prefer the guy who is less detailed and nit picky.

So here you have it folks... the Inspector gets it for not being detailed enough and then he gets it again when he is too nit picky. It's a wonderful life... I love my job.

BTW... I tell my Clients that if someone disagrees with my report, tell them to put it in writing with their license number on it. That makes a lot of people back off and ends the debate 99.9% of the time. Oh... and another thing... I would not trust the Inspector who wants to make money off of his report findings. It is illegal in many states. That is bad advise to use a contractor who wants to profit from his repair inspection.

and yet another point... If you see a stain around the chimney flashing from the attic, what do you say if you cannot reach that point to personally test it? It needs to be verified if it is leaking or not, no? Can you say for sure it is leaking or not? So you have to look like a fool and say it needs to be check out, right? I wish I could say for sure I know everything, but I don't.... and... I always have a problem with mockers who have not done my job, telling me they know better. Yeah right.

And... how can someone sit around and laugh at the state mandated standards of practice? If the law says there are limitations to a home inspection, is that funny? Go to your state capital and tell them the joke and see if you can get someone there to laugh... I don't think so.

It's always easy to sit around mocking something regardless of all the facts.

Master Electrican

The reason we have inspectors is because contractors (electricians, plumbers, HVAC technicians, roofers etc) make mistakes. We also have homeowners wo do a great job in screwing up. Not to mention unlicensed contractors. And my favorite the box stores.

As a home inspector I could tell you I've found thousands of errors from licensed contractors. It a way of life. I've read hundreds of home inspection reports and some are pretty embarrassing to our profession. I've reinspected a number of homes that were inspected prior.

I do not use the word appears, it is or it is not. I do not recommend contractors to evaluate, that 's my job. I recommend that they repair or replace. If I see al wiring I open up receptacles and switches. Most of them have bad pigtails.

I spend at least an hour a day in research and at least two hours a day on weekends. I do not even come close to knowing a lot. My bathrooms are full of reading material.

There are different types or kinds of inspector. There three or four inspectors in my area that know a hell of a lot more then me are almost never recommended by Realtors. The more I learned the less I was recommended.

So maybe the reports you get from home owners and Realtors are for a reason other than what you may think.

John-

You are missing the point. I am not mocking you or what you do. All I am saying is I don't think buyers know for sure what they are getting from you. I think the word "inspect" implies something different from what you are actually doing. When you say you are going to inspect a home I think people get an idea in their head different from what is actually taking place. Frankly I don't care if you are more, or, less thorough. I just want my buyer to understand what they are getting! I have never lost a deal over an inspection report. I don't intend to anytime soon. I am not taking issue with your job, or your knowledge, or your report, or any other asect of what you do, except that I want my client, and yours, to understand what you are actually doing.

Dylan-

I do view our municipal inspectors differently for several reasons. First and foremost, the specialize. My electrical inspector is just an electrical inspector. He does not look at plumbing, HVAC, framing or any other aspect of the home. Second he is required to be a licensed Master Electrician, which means prior to inspecting, he spent years installing the work he is currently looking over. Third he is held accoutable if he misses anything ( in my area they are held very accountable). Fourth, his inspection is altogether different. He is going to inspect the work of a professional contractor. If you go and inspect a 50 year old home, there's no telling who has been in there screwing around over the last five decades! To me, that means you need more thorough than my inspector and you just aren't (Let me say, I don't think you can be either). Here again is a case of I'm not sure if the buyer knows for sure what they are getting.

By the way, I to am enjoying this debate. Thanks for participating with me instead of just blowing me off as an uninformed Realtor!

Mitchell-

Sorry, you posted while I was typing. It sound as though you are very thorough in your inspections. I would not have a problem with using you as long as you explained to our client what they were getting from you. My whole issue with you guys is that I don't think buyers get the right idea of what they are getting, and that has to come from you. I'll use the toughest inspector on the planet, and I still don't think he will provide the inspection the average home buyer is looking for. I said it before and I'll say it again I have never lost a deal over an inspection, evertything is negotiable, be as tough as you want to be!

I do agree with you, we all make mistakes. I just think the average homeowner views an "inspector" as the last line of defense against mistakes. They are the ones, in my mind, who hold you guys to a very tough standard. I just think there needs to be a better way of explaining to them you may miss some things because, let's be honest, you're not going to look at at everything. It's not possible that you could. Maybe you guys should take some pressure off yourselves and change you names to mechanical systems inspectors! (sorry bad joke!)

Master Electrican

You are 100% correct, there is probably not a house I do that I don't miss something. Hopefully it will not be to big of a miss. Clients expectation varies with each client and their knowledge. When a client asks If I guarantee the inspection the only guarantee I can give is I'll do the best I can given the circumstances.

You bring up an interesting point about muni inspectors. They are only trained in one area. I see muni guys pass HVAC equipment but don't see the damage they did by the install or the improper electrical work. I would say 80% of the time when new HVAC is installed they don't change the wiring or the breakers in the panels and or disconnects. I see this also on pool equipment when they double tap the main. My favorite is when the emergency egress for a bedroom is a sliding door then they build out and the bedroom no longer has emergency egress. I see converted carports to enclosed garages where they have a window in the kitchen looking into the garage. I can go on but yes we all make mistakes and we as inspectors are the buyers last hope.

I don't think home inspectors need to have installed an electrical panel, water heater, hvac equipment or build a house to know if it is wrong.

What inspector need to know is how something works, how something looks and and what I call deficit recognition. He should state plainly what he sees and prescribe a method of correction. He may not know how to physically correct it because he can not or will not take it apart. That is not our job. My job is to tell the client that based on my observations and testing this is not right have a licensed insured professional fix it.

I used to tell my client that their was a leak on the drain line under the sink. I got a couple of call backs from plumbers who said their are two leaks should I fix just the drain line or both? Well now when I see a leak under the sink I tell then that I saw leak(s) have a plumber correct. The same thing with GFCI if they are wire together I tell them to check all if one is not working. Why because I've seen then fix the one I called out but now the next one in line doesn't work.

Most good Realtors will rarely lose a sale because of a home inspection report. Why, as I tell in my class because everything can be fixed for a price.

MAR

2007

To the Master Electrician,

The label of Inspector was given to us by law and what it means is described by law (in most states). It is up to the Realtor to prepare their Clients, if they are expecting more than what the law has prescribed. An Inspector cannot read minds and has a very limited time with the Client. Most Clients want to know if it is OK to buy the house. I don't let them off that easy, I make them join me in the thinking process. I don't want them calling me back later, because they bought the house without thinking. Realtors study the art of selling and working the customer's emotions. I am there to pull them out of the realm of blinding emotions and help them look at the condition of the house with a sound mind. My report details many things that I do not or cannot inspect in order to bring the report into a reality focus.

I noticed your tone has changed and your no longer mocking. I like that.

To Mr Captain,

Thank you for your comments. Your words come from much experience, I can tell.

To the Master Electrician,

Since you hammered the Chimney inspection....Let me give you a reality check and it should clear up a couple of points you tried to make.

There are a wide variety of chimneys, which represent an even wider variety of interrelated components that comprise them. However, there are three basic types: single-walled metal, masonry, and pre-fabricated metal ones that are commonly referred to as factory-built ones. Single-walled metal ones should not be confused with factory-built ones, and are rarely found in residential use, but masonry and factory-built ones are commonplace. Our inspection of them is that of a generalist, not a specialist, and meets industry standards. However, significant areas of chimney flues cannot be adequately viewed during a field inspection, as has been documented by the Chimney Safety Institute of America, which reported in 1992: ‘The inner reaches of a flue are relatively inaccessible, and it should not be expected that the distant oblique view from the top or bottom is adequate to fully document damage even with a strong light.' Therefore, because our inspection of chimneys is limited to those areas that can be viewed without dismantling any portion of them, and does not include the use of specialized equipment, we will not guarantee their integrity and recommend that they be video-scanned before the close of escrow.

Pre-cast concrete chimneys are built in factories and then trucked to a building site and erected, as distinct from masonry chimneys that are built on site with individual bricks and mortar. In this respect, pre-cast chimneys are unique. However, like masonry chimneys, they are vulnerable to seismic activity, but unlike masonry chimneys they are also subject to cracks that are induced by the interaction of moisture and a chemical additive called calcium chloride that causes the reinforcing steel within the chimney to expand and crack the chimney wall. Such cracks can be small, but they are nonetheless subject to stringent repair methods that are stipulated by the manufacturer. However, if any crack penetrates the chimney wall it cannot be repaired and the chimney must be removed. For this reason, we recommend that all pre-cast chimneys be video-scanned or certified by a specialist before the close of escrow.

Chimney flues need to be cleaned periodically, to prevent the possibility of chimney fires. However, the complex variety of deposits that form within chimney flues as a result of incomplete combustion, and that contribute to such fires, are complicated and not easily understood. They range from soot, or pure carbon, that does not burn, to tars that can ignite. All of these deposits are commonly described as creosote, but creosote has many forms, ranging from crusty carbon deposits that can be easily brushed away, to a tar-glazed creosote that requires chemical cleaning. These deposits need to be identified and treated by a specialist. However, cleaning a chimney is not a guarantee against a fire. Studies have proven that significant percentage of chimney fires have resulted within one month of the chimney being cleaned, and many more have resulted within a six-month period.

Master Electrician,

You said... "The house has not burned down in thirty years, what makes you think it would happen now? Another example would be "inspectors" getting information on current code changes and trying to hold a thirty year old home to that standard. (For instance AL wiring.) That is what we call irresponsible!"

My Reply:

The most common cause of fire in a house over thirty years old is from the electrical system. The stress of the heat (energy) passing through the wires can cause expansion and contraction (even more with AL), and the screws and fasteners holding the wires can sometime become loose. This gap causes arching (sometimes sparking). The fixtures in the electrical system can also develop gaps and arching, from years of use. So I try and educated my Clients for the need to do an electrical service check on older homes for safety reasons. MANY older homes use Federal Pacific stab lock breakers, which have a known history of failure sometimes, but you may not know about the failure until the wires overheat. So... I would never tell someone "The car has never had a problem with it's parts or rubber hoses in all these years, what makes you think if would happen now?" No, I think the electrical system in an OLDER home needs special attention and the Client needs to understand that an older house comes with some maintenance that is normal for it's age.

As to informing my Clients about current code, the law says that Inspectors are not code inspectors. But we are required to advise the Client about the MOST RECENT safety recommendations. Then the Client can decide if they want to upgrade or not. To NOT tell the Client about the MOST RECENT safety recommendation would be irresponsible! Why? Because I serve the Client and not the Realtor, and my report is not intended to help the house sell or not sell. That is not what I was hired for.

To add to John's point

When the arc fault breakers came out I jumped for joy because I was not an electrician and was hoping that it could be the answer for Al wiring. After speaking to some electrican I sadly found out it would not work. BUT if it did I would tell every client that had AL wiring to get them. Just like I tell all my client to update and get GFCIs.

Codes as you know are reactive not proactive. Something bad happens and a code is changed or added. I advise my clients to the best of my ability to upgrade to prevent disasters from occurring. Sometimes the Realtor chimes in that it was not code at that time. I'm not telling my client that the seller should pay for the upgrade I just give them the info and let them decide.

The code changed some time ago for stair railing from six inches to four inches. Why because parents didn't watch their kids (joke kinda true)and the kids heads would get stuck in the railings. What kind of a lousy inspector would I be if I didn't inform my client of the possibility of harm?

BTW I don't care if it is code or common sense I try to inform my client. That's all I can do.

John-

I agree with you that the electrical systems in older homes need to be checked and maintained. I also agree with you about the maintainance issues with AL wiring. My problem with a lot of inspectors is that they will tell a client a house is more dangerous because it has AL wiring. That simply is not true. Does it require more maintainance, yes. Is it more expensive to maintain, yes. Does it need to be handled differntly, yes. Should avoid buying the house because it has AL wiring, NO!! CU wired homes need to be maintained too! I have no problem informing them of the manitainance issues or even the potential hazards, but scaring the pants off of them just isn't right. I'm not saying that you would present it to your clients in such a way as to scare them, but a lot of inspectors do. I believe that is partially because of a lack of understanding about AL wiring.

As far as the FPE panels, you are correct they do have a history of failing. However, only in certain avoidable instances. If you have an overload in your home FPE breakers will trip without issue (assuming you don't have a bad breaker). In the case of a dead short (direct hot to ground or hot to neutral contact) you can weld with that short and never get the breaker to trip. Again, this is not the end of the world. Insurance companies will still provide you a policy, and you can get the panel changed (in my area) for around 800.00. Don't run from the house just because of the panel!! (Before anybody gets their shorts in a bunch about the insurance company statement, let me explain. If insurance cos. deem something to be unsafe they will make you change it before they will write the policy. For example, fused panels.)

Someone mentioned before about communication issues. I would take it a step further and say "it's not what you say, it's how you say it." I would never ask you not to make a home owner aware of potential issues with a home. All I'm asking is don't present it in such a manner as to cause them to run and hide.

I realize you work for the buyer and not me. But do you inform them of all of the code (safety) changes or just the ones you are aware of? Because the electrical code is designed to work as a whole, partially informing the buyer could be just as dangerous as telling them nothing. That would also be irresponsible.

To the person who tried porviding me a reality check. That is just another example of "I'm not qualified to inspect that." You should call someone else, but not until after you pay me for inspecting your home. Huh? If I am paying a home inspector to inspect my home, isn't the chimney a part of my home????? The chimney was just the one I pointed out. If you look at the list that was posted earlier, there are apparently a whole lot of things in my home that the home inspector is not required to inspect!!!

I apologize to the other inspectors who read that, but this person apparently wanted to pick a fight!

Well, It certainly warms my heart to see the ASHI guys and NACHI guys in agreement! As for the "incognito" poster, there are aspects of your post which we can all agree upon, especially the part about "it's now WHAT you say, but How you say it." As for electrical issues, whether it be a Zinsco or FPE panel, "homeowner special" wiring "updates", mixed knob and tube/older NM cable, modern "upgrades" with three wire cable that still isn't grounded, and a myriad other things, the inspector has a duty to inform. We can be held liable if we do not inform. Thus the "legalspeak" you see in inspector's reports. I will say this...if you DON'T see this language, you better run as fast as you can away from that inspector, lest you get wrapped up in the same lawsuit. I just inspected a 120 year old home yesterday. In the MLS listing, it said plainly, "Electrical system has been TOTALLY updated!" That's on paper. Here's what I found.

1) Distribution panel located amongst a bunch of stored items on an ell wing OF THE ATTIC! Accessibility issues? You bet.

2) Old knob and tube wiring, pigtailed into with romex, wire nuts left hanging.

3) Romex draped, hung, looped or lying loosely in the attic, NO junction boxes installed on any of the "new" wiring.

4) Service mast head mounted on the side wall, 7" above ground level.

Obviously, this entire system will have to be redone. That is expensive. Now, Mr. or Ms. incognito poster, please educate us inspectors as to HOW we should word such a mess. Pretend for a moment that you are the listing agent, and you had put that little jewel in your listing for all the world to see about an updated electrical system. Think liability, and how you would want your inspector to present the issue in his/her report.

As to grounded outlets. ALL outlets are grounded. If not they would not work.

Please refer to the definitions in Article 100 of the NEC.

The listing was correct, the electrical has been updated. It never said that it was done correctly.

My report would say: Have electrical system corrected by a licensed, professional and insured electrician. After all correction are made have electrician certify in writing that the electric system meets the NEC as of time of install.

Mitchell,

Ahh! The magic of words! Question is, how would those words in the listing be interpreted in court? I do like your report comment. Short, and to the point.

I do not want to get of topic so come here:

http://activerain.com/blogsview/62731/Just-curious

Stir the pot Mike!

Well, well....some folks just can't resist. I noticed the lack of comments on the cited blog....may this will drive a little traffic over there for ya. You know, out of 'curiosity' It's a pity that HI organizations feel the need to brawl in public. But here's a little bit of wisdom from one great American:

"A house divided upon itself cannot stand."

Hmmmm..your plastered with "certified"

Check your website, if you have forgotten already.

http://www.yourhomesok.com/why_us.htm

BTW Mike...no one can doubt your qualifications. Perhaps you should lobby members of the legislature in your state about licensing of HI's, since your state requires NONE.

Mr. incognito 'by' person....still waiting on that response.

Let it be known that I belong to no org's except the IAEI (The International Association of Electrical Inspectors), we interpret the NEC. This is not a HI org.

I guess that I should have 1000 hit in 10 minutes.

Sorry that I am only one guy. But it only takes one to start the snowball.

Jimmy

I like the ICC certification. Now that is credible.

By beef is with the 2 week certified inspectors.

I have the requirements to be ICC certified BUT since I got my electrical certification in 2002 and sent my CE credits to the state, which means I have no originals for the ICC, I have to wait until I have another 30 hours of CE before I can get my ICC certification. IMHO the ICC is very respected.

Sometimes playing by the rules causes you to wait to get what you think that you deserve.

In response to the Anonymous “Master Electrician / Realtor”:

Just as with every industry, there are:

Those that are properly trained and perform well,

Those that are properly trained and perform badly,

Those that are minimally trained and perform well,

Those that are minimally trained and perform badly.

When I inspect the crawl space or attic and I find beams, joists and trusses that are cut in half by the “professional contractor” that built or remodeled the home…

I will remember you.

When I inspect the oil furnace with the barometric damper sealed shut by the installer or last HVAC Technician…..

I will remember you.

When I inspect the “updated” wiring done by a licensed electrician that is spliced to the old knob and tube and is not even in a junction box…..

I will remember you.

When I inspect the attic with the new insulation blown or placed over the knob and tube wiring by a professional insulation contractor…..

I will remember you.

When I inspect the new water heater in the basement installed by the licensed plumber with the TPR valve line going UP to the ceiling before emptying into the crawl space at the other end of the house……

I will remember you.

Thank you for the Professionals who installed all these items. Without them, I might be out of business. After all, I am just a "Generalist".

When I find my next “professionally installed” error, blunder, fault, screw-up…

I will remember you……..NOT

MAR

2007

LOL!! Stephen...you ROCK!

If anyone whom made it this far still has doubt's as to the power of a few misplaced words please jump to my first blog on active rain where the blog essentially asks the same question in a differant way.

Blog insertion 3/16/07

Comments.......... zero

Now for anyone thinking we take our profession lightly go to http://www.inspectorsjournal.com

Hey Stephen Stanczyk, pretty powerful statements... I think you raised another point. Maybe this legislation gun is pointed at the wrong professionals.... u think?

MAR

2007

Well Guys and Girls... we have 140+ comments on this blog so far... I think you have all done a wonderful job with your comments. You have provided a ton of information and thought provoking wisdom. Thanks to everyone.

The person that remains nameless clearly has an agenda/motive. I remain unclear just what the motive is... ?

To show that the inspection is not worth the money spent? That the inspector needs help (more than one person checking a property)? That there is a basic flaw in the inspection "system" with respect to the reporting methods?

Gary Smith - www.garynsmith.net

Too funny, the deal killer isn't the inspector, the deal killer is the condition of the property, don't we all have a responsibility to protect and educate our clients. I just give the facts and educate. I suggest possible solutions and have been known to work with the client if he decides to walk and the agent finds him/her another property that the client wants me to inspect. I rarely charge full price the second time. The better agents in my area just find another property for the client if the deal falls through, its only the the agents that are shady that get irritated when a deal falls through because of legitimate defects (in my experience). Example of legitimate defect leaky roof that has leaked so long insulation is moldy in attic and seller doesn't want to do repairs. (extreme)

MAR

2007

Master Electrician:

It doesn't matter what your expectations or your clients expectations are. Inspectors in our state as in most who require licensing, inspect to the State Real Estate Commissions' Standards of Practice, (TREC) in my case, which is mandated by the state legislature. That is the law we follow regarless what realtors like or dislike, approve or disprove of. I don't work with realtors personally, only referral.

Thank you for taking the time to ask the question. Personally I have seen both good and not so good inspectors. The bottom line for me is that I educate my clients/customers and ASK if they have a specific reason for the home inspection. Is the inspection to find a reason to renegotiate the purchase price? OR to be able to make an informed decision based on the inspection stating the conditions of the home they are buying. I routinely let my buyers know that the 150 year old home they want to buy will have a home inspection report that is very long and indepth. A home inspector must disclose everyting they find. How they word things may be different from one inspector to another, but I always incourage asking questions as to the severity of an issue. Unless the inspector is a licensed oil burner tech, the only thing he can say in a home inspection report about the furnace will be that he turned it on, it worked, he inspected the componants and what he saw, BUT suggests having a licensed person inspect it if there are any unanswered questions.

When I am working with new agents and/or first time home buyers, I always discuss home inspections and the purpose of one - so the buyer knows exactly what he is buying at the negotiated price.

Since I've been counceling my clients, I have had very few "deal killing" inspections - although some that have been deal killers were for REAL GOOD REASONS.

One of the things that surprises me sometimes, is the comments that I hear from Realtors about the "fear and confusion" a home inspection report created... And yet, these same Realtors, were the ones trying to interpret the report findings to the Client and many times never bother to call me to explain things. I get the feeling that many feel they are better qualified and are afraid of calling, because they are seeking to bring the Client to the buying table, more than they are willing to go through the complex issues that need to be addressed by the inspection report. Yes, the inspection report makes the selling process more complex, especially to those who are unfamiliar with the issues in a report... but that's what the inspection is all about. It is a good thing for everyone involved to go into the deal with their eyes open. I can see how it takes a very skilled Realtor to adjust to all the issues and the various reactions that people go through. I have heard some Clients comment to me, that the more the Realtor tried to calm their concerns, about an inspection issue, the more they did not trust that Realtor. They could see the salesman seeking to gloss over things, instead of guiding them through the issue and finding real answers. I can see how it can be a hard job, but for the Client's sake, it is a very needful process.

An honest evaluation of the property.

MAR

2007

What do Realtors really want from home inspectors?

I can only answer for myself, but want I want from a home inspector is another advocate for my client.

I do not use home inspections as a negotiating tool, I only use them to provide peace of mind to my clients that they are purchasing a sound home that is safe for themselves and their family. If there are any major issues, the home inspection should point it out.

I also want a home inspector to point out possible maintenance issues that can come up in the next few years so the buyers can prepare to maintain their home.

I like when a home inspector breaks their inspection down into clear concise categories like:

-Safety Hazards & Code Violations (structural, etc.)

-Suggested Maintenance

-Cosmetic and Minor Issues

I hope that helps. Thanks for the question!

Like Rita mentioned. My biggest peeve is an inspector that overly uses the advice of further inspection although they are sometimes valid. I prefer that all of my buyer clients be present for inspections. I advice them to ask questions and even prepare questions prior to the inspection. I have seen some inspectors avoid direct questions from the clients who hired them and respond in such ways as 'it will be in my written report' I much prefer the inspector that is willing to have a 2 way conversation about their clients concerns.

I too, like when an inspector breaks down the report into categories of severity such as 'needs immediate attention', 'Maintenance Required', 'minor issues'

Byron,

One reason you often see certain language in inspection reports is the potential for liability. Go figure, huh? Every comment on an item or defect should contain the following four elements: 1) the subject of the comment, whether it be a minor, major, or maintenance issue, 2) its location, 3) the implications (level of severity), and 4) an advisory. A good inspector welcomes...no, prefers that clients tag along. It certainly makes the communication process smoother. A good inspector might explain how certain things are done, and a handy homeowner can choose to DIY, though the inspector may still recommend a professional in the report. When neither the client nor his/her agent is present, such comments are often taken as overkill. From your perspective, you might think, "Why is he saying this is a maintenance issue, and then advising a professional assessment?" That's simply because the inspector does not know whether the client is qualified, or has an Uncle Joe who is qualified, to address the issue. Some people have two left feet and ten thumbs, and can make almost any endeavor a dangerous one to undertake. I hope I was able to explain that clearly. Maybe some other inspectors would like to jump in here and expand on this.

I have seen people clean the roof improperly and the leaves rotted the shingles after a little while. I have seen people not apply caulking around trim properly and in a few months they have moisture penetration problems and mold issues. I have seen some of the most simple maintenance issues done incorrectly and MAJOR PROBLEMS develop REAL FAST. So... is it over kill to recommend a Professional do everything mentioned on a report? I think not. Of coarse if your trying to make a commission on the sale of the property, instead of being concerned about the repair issue, then you might see it differently. Sorry... these are the facts.

APR

2007

WOW, I have learned and gathered so much information from this post, from Agents and Inspectors. Is there a way to save this entire post? I have not been able to read each and every post here and would surely like to. Knowledge from this I feel would make me better understand all positions everyone comes from and make me a much better inspector for the CLIENT, the HOME BUYER and or SELLER. Isn't that who we ALL are working for in the end?

That's right, and should be the end result of any open discussion. Everyone's frustrations and concerns are thrown out there like the proverbial sheets in the wind. In the end, it makes for better professionals with a better overall understanding of ALL the issues, and results in a positive refinement of one's professional skills, whether as an inspector or a RE agent. The whiners will always whine, and the self-important will always be....well, self important...but the best will become even better.

APR

2007

Fortunately at the end of the day we all want to better ourselves for the good of our respective industries and th good of the services we provide. This was the absolute best discussion I have seen since joining active rain.

Thanks Ernie. Debate can be a good thing, if everyone keeps a good spirit.

APR

2007

One reason I do not like to recommend inspectors , I thought Mr. Bushart's remark about how he could care less if they buy the house, he just goes and does the job was a bit tastless.

Again never did I ever tell a buyer not to hire an inspector, nor do just think about me commission,we all make money here, but the clients interest comes first.

03/19/2007

by Neal Bloom

I am not the kind of inspector that you would want to recommend, Mr. Bloom. Your client, when he reads my report, will have a complete, unbiased and understandable explanation of the present condition of the systems within the home that you are asking him to buy. That appears, from some of your posts, to threaten you.

APR

2007

My big things are communication and clear conveyance of the information with no alarmists attitudes or minimizing important items. I want my buyers to be aware of issues that might cause resale problems and I want to have an idea of what it will cost to right the wrong.

APR

2007

I believe that a home inspector has the same responsibility that agents do - to tell the truth, but put the informatiion in context. I'll never forget the home inspection on a property that had taken months to sell, was admitedly in need of work, and the buyer expected the worse - but that was no excuse for the home inspector to say to the buyers before they were even out of the car that "this house has major problems". He could have started with "Hello, my name is ___" and a smile. He could have said, "The stone on the exterior is beautiful (positive), but it requires some work by a licensed contractor because it is pulling away from the house in one spot" - Not "Wait 'til you see how the stone is pulling away from the house!" - It's not what you say (we want the truth from home inspectors), but how you say it (we don't want you to kill the deal).

John,

Ideally, agents want an inspector who finds nothing wrong with the house and pronounces it in perfect shape. Unfortunately, this is not reality and there is something needing attention with almost every house.

However, HOW the inspector presents it is most important. Pointing out an "issue" rather than a "problem" goes a long way to keeping the deal together.

Margaret,

I'm confused, why did your client even hire a home inspector if he knew it needed work and "expected the worse"?

Margaret,

If the stone pulling away from the house was related to a foundation problem, then the cost of repairing the stone and the foundation could indeed be a "MAJOR" problem.

Why should the Inspector sugar coat a "MAJOR" problem by saying "but the stones look beautiful"?

Since you stated that the house took "months to sell and admittedly in need of work, and the buyer expected the worse..." it sounds like more than just these particular buyers could see the house had some "MAJOR" problems.

Perhaps you should consider that stones pulling away from the house just do not sell good. It is NOT the inspectors job to make a MAJOR problem sound nice and down play the problem to help the Realtor make a sale. The Inspector is not the Realtors magician.

I did an inspection on friday for a couple and upon meeting them they had a couple of specific issues that they wanted me to give them my opinion on. The first was an architectual column at the porch that had settled around an inch and a half (1-1/2") the second was some moisture they had observed in the basement around the perimeter that was wicking through the joint at the floor slab and the foundation walls.

When I saw the moisture I made them aware of the fact that there was an existing sump pump and exterior french drain system in place but judging from the moisture observed and old carpet tack strip that was still in place from some previously un installed carpet it looked like there were previous and current moisture problems.

I answered every question I could about possible options to remedy the problem but in the end I encouraged my clients to consult with a ground water drainage contractor. In our area there is only a handful of these type contractors so I was asked if I could help find somebody to come and take a look at the problem. So I made some calls and found a guy that does this type of work and he agreed to meet myself, the buyers, seller and both agents at the property.

Meanwhile the seller told her agent that she had a water heater break while out of town and the water heater breaking was responsible for the moisture observed. The clients wanted to know if I thought the water heater breaking over a month earlier could be responsible for the moisture and I frankly told them their was other evidence that still would suggest moisture/ground water problems including the settlement of the column at the front porch and the obvious prir damage that caused the carpet to be uninstalled previously.

When all parties arrived the seller spent 10- 15 minutes giving explanations for every concern the buyers had fnally the contractor that I had found in good faith was asked what his opinion was of the conditions and he stated he felt that even with the existing sump pump and french drian (that had apparently been installed after a prior owner had ground water flood an ruin the carpet) there still was a problem that would prevent the buyer from being able to finish the basement until the problem was correctly remedied.

The buyers were uncomfortable with the condition even before I ever set foot on the property and I and the contractor just confirmed that their concerns were legitimate. But I have never seen two realtors that tried so hard to save a deal. The seller agent kept trying to downplay th entire thing and even the buyer agent was attempting to downplay the issue.

As the contractor was leaving he stated that he lives in the same neighborhood and was familiar with the conditions in the area having fixed a number of similar problems nearby. I walked him to his truck thanking him for making time to come by and while we were talking my client the buyer and the buyers agent walked up to us and the buyer asked us to cut to the chase she wanted to know worst case how much money it would take to fix the issue, he gave them ball park bid of $9000 to install a new french drain system at the "inside" of the foundation and replace the entire basement floor slab.

So much for this being a "minor problem" like some were trying to make it out to be. I know for a fact that these buyers were questioning whether or not their agent had their best interests in mind and I also know I probably won't get any referrals from either of these agents any time soon but at the end of the day this deal committed suicide , I didn't kill this deal the moisture in the basement and the settlement did.

But one thing is for sure these clients heard and were made aware of a serious problem and made an informed decision.

After seeing so many Realtors do the same thing Ernie... it makes it hard to trust someone who says they are working to help the Consumer, all the while trying to push the deal through, regardless of the problems. It makes me sick. It happens all the time and more and more people are exposing this kind problem in the industry. Thanks Ernie.

All too familier story Ernie. I wonder if those 2 agents would have been sued by the buyer, along with you if you buckled to their story.

John,

I'm so glad you followed up. Because I missed the first article. I wanted to comment on both but I got carried away so I post my thoughts separably, at: Dealer Killers

Keep up the good work, on the blog and protecting consumers and professionals in the feild.

Bill\

William J Archambault Jr

The Real Estate Invewstment Institute

http://www.reii.org

I have enjoyed this post immensely.

first of all a little relevant background; I am a Licensed Home Inspector in the state of North Carolina. Our family owned and operated company consisting of my father, brother and myself carry on the business started by my grandfather have performed over 20,000 inspections. I performed my first inspection as an apprentice to my grandfather at the ripe old age of 16. (ok I wasn't much more than a glorified outlet tester and ladder carrier lol) I have seen the business evolve from its early days to the present form.

With that said, I would like to address one issue that has come up a few times in this thread; The referral to specialists. The N.C. licensure board MANDATES we refer to specialists for many issues. There are many problems where I can easily describe the proper repair, but I am simply not allowed. Any inspector in NC that does not conform to that standard is in jeopardy of suspension and/or other disciplinary action. My father(and soon to be myself) is a licensed general contractor as well as an inspector. He can provide directive in many cases without referring to a specialist, simply because he is one.

The licensure board wants us to be experts when we walk into the house, but generalists when we leave. On the other hand, our inspection is not "technically exhaustive". If it was it would be far more expensive and time consuming. Would you tear into every system of the house and perform invasive techniques for $350? Of course not. When we see an issue that goes beyond the scope of our inspection, we have to pass the baton to the next runner. I simply want to show that our hands are tied, even when we know the answer.

APR

2007

This was sent to me, today, by a real estate salesperson who responded to one of my editorials condemning the actions taken by the Missouri Association of Realtors to push home inspection legislation that would put real estate salesmen on a home inspection licensing board:

Dear Mr. Bushart:

Thank you, for taking the time to write your letter to the Editor regarding House Bills 324 and 978. Our industry needs no additional suggestion of conflict of interest.

I am an independent real estate broker, originally licensed in Michigan in 1978. During the years of the availability of Certified Home Inspectors, much peace of mind has been afforded my colleagues and me--albeit unbeknownst to some. This has been the case precisely because there was never a question of collusion between Realtor and Home Inspector. It did not matter who brought the Inspector to the table, he or she was a welcome entity that kept many a real estate sales person out of the soup if he or she (real estate licensee) was smart enough to keep his or her respective mouth shut.

A prerequisite to the "no problem transaction" is integrity. It is this integrity that I perceive as threatened by the above-mentioned bills.

As long as we respect the profession of the other, while recognizing that it is not our profession, we may continue to strive to better facilitate the needs of our clients through education and excellence in our own fields.

Thank you for your contribution,

Respectfully,

I am withholding the name of this person since I do not have her permission to post it. I like what she has to say.

APR

2007

I find the post from the realtor/electrician insteresting from the standpoint that some of what is said seems to be contrary to what I have found. I am referring to aluminum wiring. Granted, any inspector with any ability knows that the heavier gauge stranded aluminum wire is almost the "norm" for ranges, dryers. However, I have a friend who is a licensed electrician and in the home inspection training course we teach in the state college system, we had a 20 year licensed electrician a few months back. I picked his brain about this issue of single strand solid conductor aluminum, usually from the 1970's. He said that with a handful of exceptions, the policy is to rip it out and put in new wire. Sure pigtails can be put in, sometimes at least, but it is usually not cost effective and puts yet another connector in the system, which is always (in all electronics) a weakness that is more likely to become intermittent or fail. That is why they do not want splices in the main ground. Also, from a personal experience, I have some scary photos of this aluminum wiring: Junction boxes without covers and all the wires inside having melted away the tape that was used to make the splices; solid strand wires to dryers where the resistance had built up and the insulation was literally charring and melting in the panel; heavy corrosion inside the panel, where the solid strand aluminum wiring was connected; heavy corrosion and outlets falling apart where the aluminum connected. So, as a result of all this evidence I have seen in the past, and the advice of licensed electricians, I cannot understand this being a laughing matter. And the only logical suggestion is to have an evaluation by a licensed electrician. Now, I do not state it should all be removed but the people need to know that it may be something costly. The consumer often has little understanding of a home, and even less, of electricity. I cannot tell you how many times people have seen two conductor outlets and thought that if they just change to 3-prong outlets they will have a ground. If the client does not mind non-grounded outlets, fine but it does them a disservice to let them believe that upgrading them is simple. Again, in most cases, new wires will have to be pulled and that is never simple at an older home. Anyway, just my thoughts on the electrical comments and aluminum wiring.

AUG

2007

I just found this forum by accident and couldnt resist jumping in after readiing the heading "Deal Killer Inspector"

I have been labeled deal killer right here in bible belt Ponca City, OK. When I first got into the inspection business back in 1999 I was very naive and thought that Realtors were my friend and a good source for referrals....was I ever wrong! I found out real quick that many Realtors in my area wanted me to look the other way and go soft on inspections, they even tried to get me to come down on my fee! Can you imagine that? Here they get or their company gets 6 - 7 % of the home sale!!! I had one Realtor say we use a inspector that only charges $150.00 Realtors are always saying they use this or that person. Well for one thing I don't like to be used by anyone, I work in most cases for the buyer he or she is the one that is paying me and I am looking out for their best inertest not the Realtor!! I firmly believe we need new laws in place to protect the buyer from dishonest Realtors that only care about making the sale and not the well being of the buyer! If I was a Realtor I would be ashamed of my prefession. I do believe there are a few good Realtors out there that really care but they are the minority and they get a lot of peer pressure to sell sell sell at any cost! So I have gone Independent 100% I will never solicite a Realtor for business for one thing it is a potential conflict of interest. The Realtors job is to sell houses, the Inspectors job is to do inspections for the buyer. So Realtors need to keep their damn noses out of the inspectors business and show respect for them as a prefessional and do not try to manipulate or threaten to black ball because they do a good job. I take pride in my work and do a darn good job, my clients are amazed at my work and custom reports. I will never sell my soul to the Real Estate Agensies! I do not nit pick at cosmetic problems and do mention good qaulities about a home also, but if I see a water heater that is 12 years old I feel it is my duty to give the buyer heads up that the water heater will probably need to be replaced soon. That is not deal killing! If a deal gets killed then the home killed itself or the buyer and seller could not come to an agreement, that is not my responsibility. My 2 Cents

Thank You

Larry Lake

www.InspectorLake.com

Well said, Larry. This is probably the only business in the world in which one is penalized for actually being good at what he's doing. I have harped on this issue repeatedly, if only to drum the obvious conflict of interest into others' heads. While it is generally not a good thing to make enemies, when one chooses to become your enemy because you have chosen to do the right thing, there are only two choices: refuse to budge, or acceed. Personally, I have a great working relationship with a small number of realtors who are wise enough to know that a good, comprehensive inspection is in their best interest as well as the client's. What the HI industry as a whole needs is effective lobbying efforts. Our position on certain conflicts of interest that are rampant in real estate is a just one. But our voice is fractured by our own internal conflicts. Besides the fact that there are a lot more realtors than there are HI's, another reason the NAR is so successful at influencing licensing law in the individual states is that it is the authoritative voice speaking for the interest of realtors.

The authority that the NAR has over its members is also why it is being sued by the Justice Department for the price controlling activities by some of its members that the NAR has turned a blind eye to. It's about time Uncle Sam got digging into that big pile of lobbying cash.

The only way to stop certain practices is to bring them to shame in the public eye. Bushy, it is likely that the only area you and I disagree on is the subject of licensing. The seedy practices of the NAR are what galls me, and their not-so-subtle attempts to control home inspectors. I seriously doubt that most realtors buy into this whole-heartedly.

In Ohio they are trying again to have Home Inspectors under the Real Estate Commission's jurisdiction.

I bet that will be fair!

great info thanks

Honesty.

AUG

2007

Honesty seems to be practiced much more in the lower echelons of either the NAR or the various home inspector organizations. Mike, there are those who disagree with me, but having the HI board placed under the wing of the Real Estate Commission is a blatant conflict of interest. This is the undue influence to which I speak, and, unfortunately, is the fly in the ointment in my own state's HI law. The same is true in other states, the excuse being that the home inspector board can not "stand alone" in meeting its expenses. Well, since when has government been a stand alone entity? If that were so, the various fees of any government department would be sufficient to run that department, and there would be no need for property, sales, or income taxes. It's a lame but crafty piece of blatant propaganda. Another excuse is that the real estate commissions are best suited to guard the public interest. Now, we HI's all know this is a joke. If anyone is guarding the public interest, it's us. It is a shame that the leadership of the various HI orgs and the leadership of the NAR are quite crafty at keeping that wedge driven between individuals, HI to HI and HI to agent. The vast majority of us passionately want honesty and integrity to rule. The individual home inspector should not fear retribution from the local realtor's organization for simply doing his job well, and the average agent should not feel pressure to get every contract to the closing table. I know it must be frustrating to the agent to get to that point and have an inspection reveal something that causes the client to back out. But the client will thank you for it, and will stay with you. Plus, the good word of mouth is priceless.

I know of very few people who have gone on to their reward who are remembered best for their material possessions. In the end, all we have is our integrity.

It's amazing how many home inspectors on active rain don't comment on these types of issues. I wonder if they are what they call 'Realtor friendly inspectors"?

Most are out inspecting and don't fool with this "dribble".

I'm a customer friendly inspector, at times that can be buyers, sellers, appraisers, attorneys, lenders or realtors.

Because realtors buy houses too.

I think the issue of the relationship between inspector and Realtor are very important. And if you don't that's fine but at least you contributed something.

While the Missouri Association of Realtors are out recruiting legislators to write a home inspection licensing bill in my state, I have been approached and am scheduled to meet with some legislators who have come to be suspicious of and concerned about the unusual amount of attention that real estate salesman are wanting to pay to home inspection legislation in our state.

They are in the process of drafting a bill that would clearly define and prohibit the conflict of interest that is found in some of the current relationships between those who are selling the property for a commission and those they are referring to presumably provide a disinterested third-party evaluation of it. They want to draw a very thick and very dark line between the act of "selling" the property and the act of inspecting it and they want real estate salespeople as far removed from the home inspection process as is possible.

And the more the real estate salespeople spend, lobby and fight....the more legislators they alienate.

Look for some real fireworks in Missouri in the coming year.

Carl Here:

As most of you know I am a man of few words. The client is the one that hired ME and pays the fee to ME. I do my job and let the Realtor do their job. I write the report the way I see it. I would write that report the same way for everybody, if it were another inspector, banker, lawyer, bus driver, it makes no difference. I am a professional in my trade and I will not let anyone lead me to do otherwise.

If there are items in need of repair I report them. I don't owe anyone an apology if the house doesn't sell.

See, I sleep real well at night knowing I did my job and had no outside influence to encourage me to do otherwise. I would rather not have a referral from a Realtor if it meant that I had to sell my soul to get the inspection.

After one sifts through all the propaganda and heavy lobbying efforts everywhere, the simple question still remains: Why is the NAR so interested in HI legislation? What is it that they fear which compels them to lobby for legislation that clearly favors them, and in far too many cases gives them a measure of control over the process of choosing home inspectors? I've heard it straight from the mouths of agents: I use so-and-so. They honestly do not see a conflict of interest. When the realtor uses buzz words and terms such as "deal killer", "alarmist", etc., they are merely reflecting the thoughts and propaganda of their leaders. There is no way on God's green earth that every agent can maintain complete objectivity in every case where there is a contract and a commission check at stake. I know that there are many who actually do practice ethics beyond reproach---but they do this in spite of the clear opportunity to do otherwise. The simple, obvious, and logical solution is to remove the agent altogether from the process of choosing a home inspector. I tell realtors who do call on me often not to steer clients to me specifically. Besides the fact that I consider this unethical, there could be serious legal consequences to such a practice, if a pattern of collusion could be shown.

I believe in the basic honesty of people. I believe the vast majority of realtors and home inspectors would like to have a truly professional relationship one with the other. But it is not the job of the NAR to safeguard that portion of the real estate transaction process involving home inspectors. If it were, they would be a third party to our contracts. It is not their job to shop prices for clients, although I think we're all aware that clients often ask for guidance from the agent. I believe this is the primary reason individual agents feel compelled to give such guidance, and I believe they do so with the best intentions, in most cases. But under current conditions, the opportunity for shady dealing exists.

Remove all influence of Real Estate Commissions from Home Inspector boards in all states currently requiring licensing, and make each HI board a truly independent one.

Ban by statute involvement of individual realtors in the process of choosing a home inspector, other than to provide information on how to choose an inspector wisely.

Home inspections are important, they allow a buyer to understand what problems if any they are in store for.

Building inspections started originally here to expose expensive problems in a home purchase so buyers were protected from non disclosure of costly problems, such as roof replacements, flooding,electrical and structural problems, etc. This way a buyer knows what they are buying.

I find iof I'm present during the final walk through-with the buyers and their building inspector, the building inspectors tone down their negative comments and only point out potential issues and explain how to deal with them...of course sometimes we find major issues like mold!! Roofs are the most common issue here, and open for negotiating between Buyers and Sellers, as to who pays for a new roof.

Cheers, have an awesome day!

www.1-victoria-real-estate.com

AUG

2007

Thanks to the internet, more and more buyers are shopping online. As a result they are reading and learning about the need for an independent home inspector who does not work for the Realtor. This niche market is growing every year. These consumers understand the need for a more detailed home inspection and are willing to pay to get it. When Realtors ask me to easy on an inspection, I just look at them and smile :)

AUG

2007

Fred,

Cheers to you! I find myself in total agreement with you, in that inspections are important. Perhaps I just need clarification, but do you mean to say that inspectors should only point out "expensive" or "costly" problems? Do you mean the expensive and costly ones that exist right now, or should we include those items that will become expensive in the future, such as a roof that will need replacing within, say, two years?

And, am I hearing you correctly when you say that inspectors "tone down" their comments IF you are there? Why would you NOT be there every time? Especially since inspectors "tone it down" in your presence. And IF you are NOT there, how in the world do you know the inspectors comments are so negative? Describe "negative comments." Does your ability to curtail negative comments extend only for the duration of the physical inspection, or does your presence influence the report as well? Can you in any way see how your comments might be viewed as negative?

Here's the core of the issue, Fred: You wish to influence or control the the tone or substance of the inspection and subsequent report, a service in which the inspector has a certain fiduciary responsibility, requiring a contract between client and inspector, of which you are NOT a party. When you speak of negative comments, perhaps you are touching upon another issue altogether, which may have more to do with the particular verbal skills of the inspector than with anything of substance.

DEC

2007

Mr. Russell, have you fell and hit your head?

I think he has fallen and can't get up....I thought we were talking about inspections in this post???!! Isnt that like spamming?

Not the ideal place to leave spam like that. He's about to get some unwanted feedback!

There are good and bad inspectors just as there is good and bad in every industry. My thoughts are have a competent inspector inspect the property prior to the listing so the Seller has idea what the house needs to make it saleable. The Sellers then have time to shop around for competent professionals to address the issues and if the buyer chooses to get their own inspections at the time of sale, that is fine, there should be no surprises. What would become a deal killer becomes a non issue.

Mr. Russel,

Your recommendation comes cheap. Foolish me I though people should recommend me based of the body of my work.

You'll understand why I'm passing on your generous offer.

Bill

John,

You control the delete button. Some deals really do need killed.

Bill

Just the truth, John, just the truth. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Spam deleted. Sorry it took me so long.

APR

2008

What we expect is that the inspector would provide a professional well written report of their findings. The local company that we use is awesome and are also members of AR!

We have seen some of the craziest things in the past, how about an inspection written on a piece of scratch paper. And to top it off they were not accurate with the information that they provided. Another time we saw an inspector offer his personal opinion on how to bury things that were wrong, such as dryrot! Not sure if either of them are still in business.

Patty & Scott Carroll - RE/MAX Equity Group Vancouver WA

I had a horrible home inspection about 3 weeks ago. it was my buyer. When I arrived for the inspection the inspector was there with I guess his assistant. First thing I noticed was........

His Pajamas! He was wearing Philsbury Dough Boy Pajamas! Yep. Honestly. I am not kidding! I guess he forgot that he was going to work. Anyways. The inspector and his assistant picked on the house from top to bottom. They also put a price tag on all items that needed to be repaired or replaced. Their total estimated cost on all items was $100,000. THEN in the end they both were trying to speak with my client regarding negotiating the price of the house. How dare they!!

One thing that I ask of inspectors is this....you are there to do an inspection. Please do an inspection. Do not give estimates for the roof, the furnace etc. You are not a contractor to remedy these issues. You are an inspector. Also. Leave the negotiating to the real estate agents and their clients. Oh and one last thing please remember to dress propertly. Going to work in your PJ's is not a good thing!

A reputable inspector will stick to the facts and communicate them clearly to the buyer. He/she will provide analysis in plain language and tell the truth to the buyers.

I think of home inspectors not as deal breakers but as additional liability insurance for me as a real estate agent. I have had two deals die in the past three years because of the due diligence provided by the home inspector. Combined on the two deals the home inspection saved my buyers more than $70,000 in septic and foundation repairs. I consider this excellent work by the home inspector and this gentleman gets my highest recommendation to all of my clients.

They really weren't deal killer inspections because both of my clients bought homes with me and appreciated my saving them thousands of dollars and untold arrgavation by recommending the home inspector that they hired.

Good home inspectors are worth their weight in gold in my buiness.

Tim

I want honesty from my home inspector. If there is a problem, I certainly want to know for my buyers. I do believe the way it is addressed can sometimes kill the deal.

Hi John,

I've been in this business some 35 years...we only started using building inspector about 1990, mainly to detect roofs, wiring and sometime foundation problems...then came the deal killer inspectors, they would not only find everything wrong but add a list of costs along with recommended sub trades and cost of repairs...you guested they made a finders fee. I soon learned to be there throughout the whole inspections, they usually toned down their comments when I was present...even though I was just listening.

Are building inspectors deal breakers, yes. Many think that they are protecting their clients from Hell, Never mind the fact the Buyer is buying a 50 year old house, of course the furnace and hot water tank will need upgrading...good news we seldom only buy one furnace as they last hear nearly 30 years, not many roofs last that long, or paint , appliances etc. People know they are not buying a new house, they do not need some to tell them the furnace is old, they know that.

Lately they have all been on some course, that warns them on liability issues...so my last condo sale..took two offers to sell, even though there were was no issues on the first sale their building inspector warned them that their could be, ..so you better not buy it, their Realtor was Furrious. His clients needed to move in 30 days plus they needed a Condo that allowed pets and their was not another condo they could move into in 30 days that allowed pets...that's another issue for another blog.

A condo i recently sold had 4 deals ahead of me collapse due to building inspectors saying if there is not a issue there will be...my buyer talked to the property manager to satisfy himself on how things in the building where looked after and if there was any problems with the building..his response "he has not seen a better building in his career of managing hundreds of buildings", my clients is buying.

I think many building inspectors go way to far in dealing with issues, with home inspections, buyers know they are not buying a new house, and expect to find repairs and upgrading if needed, some buyers like the house, and do not want to upgrade to the current standards.

My idea of a building inspections is it allows a buyer to know more about the home, and find major issues that can cost thousands of dollars, then decide if then want to buy, I think it brings a buyer up to speed to alert them that the gutters needs cleaning, the perimeters drains needs clearing and some light sockets needs fixing.

Now we're looking at Mould...we'll save that for another Blog too,

Thanks for posting this topic, great to air our thoughts and experiences.

PS: Bottom Line it was not a concern when homes cost $10,000 when I first started selling real estate in 1971

APR

2008

Wow....this thread just won't die!! I'd like to address the above comments made by Tim and Fred. Tim, obviously you've done your homework and have found a well qualified inspector who has both the knowledge and communication skills to recognize defects and accurately define them. And your observation that a good inspection is like free insurance is right on the button. Would you care to fund a portion of my E&O? Maybe some of you agent guys who recognize the insurance value of a good inspector could start a non-profit and take donations to help pay for some of the rediculously high rates we inspectors have to endure!! Personally, I brough education and experience with me into this business when I started it, but none of that seems to have any impact on the guys who underwrite E&O for inspectors.

Fred, Fred, Fred. You seem to be one of those old dawgs who resent the intrusion of the home inspection industry into your own, period. I know some of those old dinosaurs down here. Obviously, you haven't taken the time to educate yourself on the standards of practice we inspectors must follow, and I must take exception to your assertion that buyers of 50 year old homes are generally aware of what they're getting. The fact is, many inspectors charge more for older homes because they know they are going to be there for a while, and the report is likely to be a long one. Another fact is, most consumers DO NOT fully understand the potential expense involved in maintaining or upgrading an older home. A little nit-picky defect here, and a little non-structural item there, and pretty soon you're talking about some real money.

Having said that, there are far too many inspectors out there without the knowledge and experience to weigh matters. Combine that with poor communication skills, or a propensity to involve themselves in matters of the transaction such as cost analysis or price negotiations (which, by the way, is illegal in this state), and I can see your point...to a degree. Those inspectors are usually the proud graduates of some franchise's one-week, teach-it-all inspector "school" who have never swung a hammer or drilled a hole in their lives. I would advise any agent to stay clear of most franchises. These organizations were largely born during the steady years of the 90s. Their marketing plans often concentrate on two things: Marketing solely and directly to the agent, and providing an on-the-spot produced report, with canned comments stored on a PDA device. I've yet to see software that can accurately communicate every defect in every home using canned comments. Plus, I've yet to meet an inspector who can maintain his objectivity and fully serve the client who is writing the check if he is in any way beholden to the agent involved.

Agents have their duties to and service contracts with the client, and inspectors have theirs. Those duties vary, and sometimes seem to be in conflict. Those contracts require separate signatures by the client, precisely because they are different contracts spelling out different obligations. My signature is not on the agent's contract, and the agent's is not on mine. There's a reason for that, and we all need to get real about it.

Oh John....Many Building inspectors want to say they can inspect any real estate, when in fact they know little or have no experience in many areas, they would be better off specialising in say Condo's, Town Houses, Older Homes, New Homes, instead they offer themselves as Heinz 57 knowledge which only many years of experience can help them. I have Building inspector that I admire, no nonsense types that do the job well, years of experience and only look for deficiencies in a house, or serious defects. Unfortunately we cannot recommend a building inspector or we are liable if they are wrong.

Right now the older inspectors are even saying the new inspectors do not want any risk, and turn down homes at a whim.

Sorry this is what is going on here,.... too much is put on them for advice and recommendation and then they have Buyers sign a waiver...what's that all about?

Sorry they have to much power over a sale, yes there are issue sometimes, but then the Seller should be liable for not disclosing. Maybe a Seller should include a Guarantee with an insurance company who would do their own inspection before a insurance policy was issued.

I say most Buyers here know a lot about what they are buying.

Cheers, your turn...:O)

APR

2008

I am blessed to have some great inspectors that I recommend to my clients. They use the proper balance of care and concern when dealing with my buyers and many of them are licensed contractors and build homes as their primary business; they simply do inspections as a sideline. I have found this to be a great combination in an inspector. They know the codes and why they are the way they are. They also know whether the grandfathering of a code issue will be a problem for a new buyer or not and how to deliver that message with a feather rather than a sledgehammer!

APR

2008

Very interesting points by everyone... Thanks for sharing.

I work primarily with first time buyers and I want to use an inspector that is willing to take the time to look at everything and answer any questions the buyer has during the inspection. There have been a few instances where the inspection was a "deal killer", but I feel like it was a "client saver" for me. By advising them to keep looking based on that report, it proved that I'm not out to get to the dollar as fast as I can, but that I actually want them to buy a good house that they will love for years and years.

APR

2008

I have found several of these comments to have common ground. What I have found in my 10 years;

I let my client (buyer) choose from a list of as many as 5 inspectors. I have worked with all of them over the years and no their quality of work. The client must interview and choose.
The price always becomes an issue for first time home buyers. I explain how important it is to get a quality home inspection from a certified home inspection. If they still refuse I have them sign a waiver.
When I represent the seller, I always ask the buyers agent who the inspector is and attend those inspections of inspectors where I have had issues with in the past.
I have read elsewhere in these comments, boiler plate inspection reports are always written to protect the inspector, not the client.
The best inspectors spend more time explaining systems and showing shut off valves and switches. I find they don't have find something wrong to feed their egos.
Last but not least explain that the inspection is a snapshot of the house's condition at that point in time, not a warranty or crystal ball.

Who ever you represent you have to council your client, and write the sellers response to a bad inspection.

I would like inspectors to watch there wording. We are looking for major defects something that is going to adversly affect the properties value. For ex. The is a hole in the screen in the window, fix immediatley !!!! and then writes it up on the summary page to have it fixed by a licensed professional. I think inspectors should go through with a fine tooth comb and let the buyer know everything they can visually see, but screens really is that necessary to have it fixed immediatly when the house is 30 years old what do you espect I look at it like your lucky the screens are still there. Explain the inspection to the buyer, and if you don't know something Please tell them to get another professional opinon Please! don't write it up recommed replace immediatley . I think the wording in a report is critical!!!

Just do the inspection and go on. I appreciate your hard work. But do leave the pricing to the sellers to find out by calling three licenced professionals and comparing notes. Also keep the small talk to your self as far as just talking to the buyer....The buyer wants you to find anything you can and have it fixed Sellers need to be treated with respect.

Let's not forget the buyers, most likely your client. Don't you want the best for them? I agree in that inspectors have no business quoting, or give guidance on bargaining. Your client hires me, I inspect the home and communicate the issues at hand. From that point on, it's out of my hands. They will make a sound decision from my report and any communication that we have.

But if your client (now my client too) has any issues or concerns regarding MY inspection, I will gladly offer advice at any time.

But one thing we all need to remember, during your career you will deal with many "ego driven" inspectors that feel they have the authority to "kill a deal". But I have also dealt with many agents that are equally "ego driven" and feel they can do my job and tell me what's right and what's wrong with a specific property.

My motto:

You sell 'em, I'll inspect 'em.

John,

As you may well know, we should never write something up "FIX IMMEDIATELY" all of our report should just explain the problem. If it is of a major component concern, Put it on the summary page.

Love your motto, Brian...

John, anybody can say what they want, you've certainly got your share of mileage out of this post. I go away for a couple of months, and the first thing I see when I come back is another batch of comments/complaints/observations/declarations/opinions (authoritative or not), and just downright bitching about deal killers. I suspect that if we were suddenly to be rid of all hastily and inadequately trained wannabees among us, the term "deal killer" would be a thing of the past. There is such a thing as balance between the need to exercise risk management (those pesky deferrals to "trained professionals" or "licensed contractors" and such), and realizing that one can note the absence of window screens without deferring to a "trained, professional, licensed, bonded and insured window screen professional." I've come to the conclusion that these are the kinds of things that stick under the realtor's craw, in MOST cases, I guess. On the other hand, we've all (inspectors) experienced the extreme anguish and gnashing of teeth by other agents who just don't get it. Below are some common (and real) observations and complaints I've heard:

"The inspection took too much time."

"The inspection was too nit-picky."

"The inspection didn't take long enough."

"Well, HALF the roof is less than 2 years old!" (You all know this one, especially in the South...owner replaces the curled and cracking west slope of the roof covering, leaves the rest...now, what new owner wants to go on replacing half his roof?)

From a seller: "Well, dammit, it's worked just fine all these years!" (Jerry rigged wiring, 110 volts off a 2p breaker, loose romex strung across the top of a fence to a storage shed out back)

And last, but certainly not least, the old NAR driven (but CERTAINLY NOT written down anywhere!) adage and admonition: "There's no such thing as a perfect house!" To which, I have to agree. It's just the context, baby, the context.

APR

2008

Hole in a window scereen or a missing screen is a defect and gets called out. The buyer gets to decide how important a called out defect is.

If the buyers agent and sellers agent can not get a deal to go through over small details, then perhaps a sales course or two might be helpful.

APR

2008

As a long time honest & ethical Realtor it is very simple what I look for an inspector.

1) Honesty - What is wrong with the house, what it will take to fix it and about how much it will cost.

2) Knowledge of the inspection process and construction.

What kills me is when an inspector makes value judgements on a house. This house is not worth it etc.

I don't tell people about house construction I don;t expect inspectors to talk about values.

Good Luck!

As a long time inspector and carpenter is kills me when a realtor is guiding me through a house and telling me what is a defect and what is not.

1.) Don't plant yourself in my back pocket, so when I tell your client there needs to be improvements made to the flashing on the roof to prevent any further damage to the sheathing and rafter system, then you jump out of my back pocket and say "no that's not a big concern, don't worry about it".

2.) I don't sit at the table with you and your clients and suggest what you should offer for the house, so don't sit at my table (the inspection) and tell me what is defect and what isn't. We all follow SOP's and abide by them.

Kevin, for good business practices I don't quote how much repairs are going to be. I'm not the one doing the work, so even an accurate cost could be way off. I also don't mention any type of value of the home either, I'm not the appraiser.

JMO

We're fighting over who said what, lets face it... homes are not new, and even new one have issues, I feel a building inspection should be done by a Seller before offering a property for sale and offer the finding to pospective Buyers before making an offer. Any defiences shown as fixed or not by the same building inspector and that the building inspector stand behind his or her final inspections. Many inspectors here have Buyers sign waiviers.

Let the Buyer decide what they will offer by reading an inspection report before making an offer, and if there is no inspection report the Buyers knows there maybe issues. It's hard on Buyers and Sellers when the inspection is done after an offer has been accepted by both parties.

Cheers

Fred....you mean you actually get your sellers to have an inspection? That's a hard sell. It's a dang good idea, but a hard sell down this way. I personally like the idea a lot, but have had limited success convincing the realtors I deal with to really push it. It's kind of like being in denial...sellers hope the house will sell in less than two weeks and that the buyer will love it so much that he/she won't even bother with an inspection. If all inspections were "front-ended" like this, we wouldn't even be having this on-going discussion, since there is as yet no deal to kill! Plus, everybody would be looking to hire the best inspectors, rather than the cheapest or the quickest. That would put lots of inspection franchises out of business, or at least give them major headaches by forcing them to change their marketing plans.

Hi Jim...This main issue here is ..if the Seller gets an inspection report the Buyer want his own inspector too. In the beginning Sellers did offer inspection reports, some Banks here also ask for a Appriser to review the building.

Standards should be set for national North American wide with licencing in each State and Province to set a standard for the inspectors. The Respective Governments need to set an Act in place for inspector licencing with a nation standard code for qualified inspectors, We and Appraisers, lawyers and mortgage brokers are required by law here to be licenced according to the respective Provincial Acts in BC.

Then a Seller can have his inspection accredited and accepted by all. The Buyers and Sellers know what they are buying and selling before entering into a contact.

Maybe the Seller might price their homes to sell if they paid for a building inspection up front.

Certainly it would take a lot of uncertainty out of offers subject to a building inspection report being satisfactory to the buyer, the crazy part the Sellers do not get to see the report unless the Buyer agrees to share it. In many cases the seller will fix any problems when they see a report, Most Buyers use the report issue to get a price reduction.

Cheers

Fred, I and a whole lot of others fully agree on the issue of licensing. I do live in a licensing state (Mississippi), and can not imagine what it must be like sorting out all the yahoos claiming to be inspectors in unlicensed states or provinces. A national/North American standard would be great. The problem in accomplishing that is that, unlike the well-organized NAR, there are too many home inspector organizations with institutional self-interests that preclude concert of action. The closest we come is that the SOPs among organizations are very similar. Of course, an inspector does not have to be a member of any organization at all, and in unlicensed states or provinces it's like the shootout at the OK Corral. I highly suspect that most "deal killers" are so-called inspectors who wouldn't know a hammer drill from a nail gun. As things stand, you are correct....buyers may be suspicious of the seller's inspection report, especially if there is little to report! Then, there's the issue of honest due dilligence by the seller and realtor, only to be undermined by a poor inspection and report. Again, the whole issue of "deal killing" seems to always come back to the sorry inspection.

I tell my client that there will debates that follow after my report and they should filter through all the various opinions with the following two steps.

1- Only accept peoples opinion if they are willing to put it in writing with their license number.

2- Have that person site the code, or other written source, such as the manufacturers installation instruction that they are using to debate my findings.

I find that this helps the client put to silence all the BS from those who want to twist the plain facts.

DEC

2008

We want honest opinions -- but not deal killers -- there are more ways of saying the same thing -- some inspectors are doom and gloom - those do not get our business.

DEC

2008

I see this is an old post that keeps on giving. It is a good one. I know a deal killing inspector as well in our area. I know what you are saying.

Happy Holidays

Don

JAN

2009

Seems like this post will be a never ending thread. Good show. A "deal killer" inspector is really based off of personal experience. Many will call an inspector a deal killer if the deal dies because of the inspection regardless if the inspection was valid or not.

I cringe when it is time for the home inspection anymore. Nervous buyers coupled with the "consult a (fill in blank) professional" comments on practically everything in the home inspection now, and it's a dice roll at best, with every home inspection. I understand your liability issues, but some details are truly minor and should be noted as such. Things like a "light switch cover cracked - consult pro" and "cord plugged into out - fire hazard - consult pro" is really unnecessary (real HI notes, btw). I've had home inspectors make 2-4 pages in a summary of similiar things. The buyer freaks out, thinks the house is falling down and refuses to purchase.

So, what do I want from a HI? First, don't do a home inspection without the buyer being present, if at all possible. That way, you can personally explain that something may not be a real issue, so when they see it in the report, they won't freak. Second, involve the Realtor, too. The buyer's agent should see the report before the buyers. That way, the agent is prepared for the questions that will come.

And while I do again understand the "consult a pro" comments as a legal protection clause, in essense, I feel that it will also ultimately lead to home inspectors falling out of favor and being replaced by the actual professionals. Here, for example, an average HI will charge $350-400 for an inspection. I could get a plumber, electrican, and builder to each review the home for $75-100 apiece. Not only would it be cheaper for the client, each would be specific to the trade.

FEB

2009

Deal Killer Inspector,, I have heard this phrase over and over, I find that the agents that refer me and the clients that hire me what an honest evaluation of the home they are considering.

Most items found during the average home inspection can be repaired or replaced by a good handyman. Rarely do I recommend out a "Licensed, Bonded, Insured Tradesman". The only exception to that rule is an Electrician. Electrical can look great but could be dangerous, many factors are involved and still many handymen can do the repair/replacement.

Another value to the inspections I preform, I offer my experience and expertise to the home buyer as a consultant. Free of charge after they purchase to home. Either over the phone or I stop by and explain how to repair/replace items. With the products and technology available these days the average home owner can do many of the repairs needed for a modest expense with just a little help from someone knowledgeable.

I find that the agents that refer me are GREAT negotiators. I may get several calls about a property from them on how to word a repair request to the seller. They rarely use the phrase "Licensed, Bonded, Insured", more "Experienced and Qualified Repairman" and good handymen are that. At a much lower cost in most instances.

In almost 20 years and 1000's of inspections I recommended my clients not purchase a home due to repairs needed and after careful consideration, getting to know them during the inspection and with the knowledge and encouragement of the agent in only a handful of times. The agents that refer me know I don't see very many homes as DEAL KILLER ones, and it TRULY should be the home that kills the deal.

If the inspector gets excited or can only refer you to that "Licensed, Bonded, Insured FOR FURTHER EVALUATION" then they are not really qualified to due inspections at any price. Get a GOOD HOME INSPECTOR and learn how to negotiate is all I can recommend.

PS. An item I forgot to mention, if your HOME INSPECTOR is QUOTING CODE VIOLATIONS, then look for the semi truck and trailer he's driving, He'll need that to carry ALL the CODE BOOKS with him, then he'll need the year and what CODE the item was INSTALLED under. Again INSTALLED under, Not repaired.

Repairs don't count normally as NEEDING CODE UPDATES.

Also the ONLY people having AUTHORITY is the LOCAL BUILDING DEPARTMENT to site for code violations. NEVER your private Home Inspector.

FEB

2010

John,

I believe in the Dragnet creed. Just the facts maam.

I hate inspectors who say I wouldn't buy this house.

Whether they would buy it is irrelevant.

Whether it has serious flaws to keep the inspector from buying it.

That is relevant.

And I never would ask an inspector to not note sometime. BAD BAD FORM.

DEC

2010

Interesting post, but not a very good one. These types of posts and the responses that surely follow do nothing for our industry other than make it more clouded for potential homebuyers. Any inspector that has been around for more than a year knows exactly what Realtors want from a home inspector, and that is someone who will not kill their deal period!

Every single one of you know this, all of you, all of the Realtors answering to this post, all of the home inspectors out there and 80% of the general public know this. Come on, stop beating this horse, it is already dead!

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John McKenna

Conroe, TX

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American Home Inspection & Thermal Imaging

Office Phone: (936) 546-2435

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