In Miami if you check yes to the IDX box on the listing page this allows another realtor (don't know about Mortgage brokers) to Advertise you listing online. But to get loan business that sounds fishy?

This is the first I've heard of this -- thanks for the warning!

Hi Misty, always a good post.

This is the first time i've heard of this type of business. If I ever wanted to advertise another agent's listing, you better get permission.

Thanks for the heads up.

Rich

Misty,

Sounds like sour grapes to me.  Someone is using a marketing strategy you don't offer?  So, you want to scare your clients (Realtors) by calling my industry unethical.  Now who is being unethical? 

What exactly have you seen done 3 times in the last week?  A mortgage broker cut into your business?

The marketing program you are talking about is actually a marketing partnership and has been around for several years. (Here is one link to the program.)  Both the Realtor and the loan officer gets the callers information.  The Realtor has access to call any prospect at any time.  The reason a loan officer calls is to get the buyer pre-approved and saves the Realtor a step. I have considered doing this type of marketing myself.  It is a win/win.  Mortgage originator finds a potential client and the Realtor only works with qualified buyers. 

I am really interested in these loan programs you are talking about.  With the changing mortgage industry are you telling me there are gimmick loan programs? 

Oh, did I mention the Mortgage originator usually provides this service at no cost to the Realtor.  Via RESPA the loan originator has to pay his share of the co-marketing, thus, this is FREE advertising for the Realtor.   Competing with free advertisement has to cut into your bottom line.  Instead of bashing Loan Originators maybe you could come up with a product to help us market our services.

Why would we want to offer this marketing strategy?  No a mortgage broker did not cut into our business.  In fact just the opposite.  A mortgage broker (a couple actually) used and paid for our services through ClassifidFlyerAds.com creating listing flyers using other Realtors listings.  We were only made aware of this when the unknown Realtors contacted us UPSET that this was being done on their listings.

So in the cases I am talking about the Realtors did not agree to have their listings marketed in this way and were unknown participants.

If Mortgage Brokers want to offer this type of marketing to Realtors fine but do it with their permission and the Realtors should know exactly how the Mortgage Broker is advertising their listings.

And I don't think I called your profession unethical.

My leading title was "Are Mortgage Brokers advertising your listings UNETHICALLY?".  Sorry if you took that as me attacking your profession.  It was not meant that way.  It is a lead in title to a situation about listings being marketed unethically, which is what was being done.

Being that the Realtors were upset in the cases I am referring to, it seems like a couple of Mortgage Brokers are attempting to use the program you are referencing the wrong way.  Or possibly they are using their own similar program without the Realtors agreement or knowledge.

Misty - Thanks for bringing this to our attention.  My mortgage partners are ethical and would never use a listing without the Agent's consent.  And btw, I would never enter into an advertising partnership with a mortage broker without the Seller's consent.  We need Seller's consent to any advertising we may use.  In today's market, Sellers sometimes withdraw a listing and the property may or not be available.  Every industry/profession have a few bad apples, no reflection on overall profession.  But I appreciate the Heads Up.

Misty that is crazy. If I found out someone was doing that with one of my listings I would be furious!! I guees I will have to keep my eyes open to that.

Margaret - well said "Every industry/profession have a few bad apples, no reflection on overall profession".  This post was in no way an attempt to slam the overall Mortgage profession.  I simply wanted to give Realtors a heads up on an issue we think they should be aware of.

Misty - Hear, Hear.  I would never think to look for this but appreciate the chance to learn from you, not the hard way!  And although it may be rare, raising agent awareness will hopefully keep this bad practice from spreading.

Misty, thanks for the warning. I understand that its rough out there and mortgage brokers have to make living to..but they should get the okay from both the listing agent and the sellers first..of course this will never happen. 

Can't we all just Get along????   I know that the future of this business mandates that mortgage agents and real estate agents start looking at becoming strategic partners throughout this awful mortgage and real estate mess we are all going thru, instead of letting egos get in the way about who is more important in the sales process.  I agree a marketing tactic where participants are not contacted is unethical, but a marketing tactic like the one mentioned, where both Realtors and Sellers are strategic partners is a great idea, afterall the main focus for the seller is how quickly they can sell thier home.  I all too often I have heard Realtors complaining about showing 3 houses to a client, only to find out they were not qualified for a loan.  I think if you have a mortgage partner willing to help pick up the phone and pre qual clients, then it is a win/win situation.  But ONLY if the Realtors know what the mortage agent is doing, and doing it with thier blessing.

                                                                                             Tom

Hello Tom- I agree with your statement "I think if you have a mortgage partner willing to help pick up the phone and pre qual clients, then it is a win/win situation.  But ONLY if the Realtors know what the mortgage agent is doing, and doing it with their blessing."

Unfortunately in the cases I was referring to the Agent's had no idea that the mortgage broker was using their listings in this way and the Agent's were not even in the loop.  That's where the problem is.

Misty, Every industry has it "bad eggs" that do things that make the rest of us look bad and drag the rest of us down. In the last 15 years or so, since I started, there has been a lot of animosity on both sides and it appears that both sides have plenty to be justified in their feelings. My position has always been that neither survives without the other and sooner that we as an industry understand and embrace it, the sooner that everyone gets along. Both have legitimate claims, but not without the other. Realtors need build strong loyal relationships and brokers need to do what they claim and communicate it better and they both need to rely on the other for their professional contribution and stay out of each others way. 

The analogy I like to use is going to a doctor for legal advice or vice-versa. No one would do that and many times (too often) realtor's try to be originators and brokers try to be realtor's. This has to stop for either side to be effective.

Of course, I am not saying there are not folks that do not already do this, but I think it is a minority. Your follow-up comment  to Jimmy McCall clearly show that you represent that minority and by Jimmy's comment, he represents the broker minority. AR is a good vehicle for change in this attitude and this dialog is a perfect way to accomplish that. Thank you for your responsible report of this situation and raising the conversation to improving the level of cooperation.

Have a great week

Bo

Misty, Every industry has it "bad eggs" that do things that make the rest of us look bad and drag the rest of us down. In the last 15 years or so, since I started, there has been a lot of animosity on both sides and it appears that both sides have plenty to be justified in their feelings. My position has always been that neither survives without the other and sooner that we as an industry understand and embrace it, the sooner that everyone gets along. Both have legitimate claims, but not without the other. Realtors need build strong loyal relationships and brokers need to do what they claim and communicate it better and they both need to rely on the other for their professional contribution and stay out of each others way. The analogy I like to use is going to a doctor for legal advice or vice-versa. No one would do that and many times (too often) realtor's try to be originators and brokers try to be realtor's. This has to stop for either side to be effective. Of course, I am not saying there are not folks that do not already do this, but I think it is a minority. Your follow-up comment to Jimmy McCall clearly show that you represent that minority and by Jimmy's comment, he represents the broker minority. AR is a good vehicle for change in this attitude and this dialog is a perfect way to accomplish that. Thank you for your responsible report of this situation and raising the conversation to improving the level of cooperation. Have a great week Bo

Hi Misty, I just want to toss in a couple thoughts to add context to the discussion.  I am not a Realtor but have been around the industry professionally for over 22 years.  My friends in the mortgage industry say that every time they would ask a Realtor what they could do to earn that Realtor's business, the Realtor would respond "send me a buyer."  It was this phenomenon that sparked the practice you write about.  I don't know if they were getting the requisite permission or not, but it seems in a way that the mortgage brokers were simply trying to honor the Realtor's wishes.

Mortgage Brokers are convenient targets for many things these days.  Maybe some of it is warranted. They certainly were not responsible for inventing the sub-prime loan programs that now have the entire country in a bind.  That honor goes to Wall Street firms like Bear Sterns.

In any case, if you have issues with mortgage brokers, I believe they will be short lived.  I believe as long as the mortgage broker continues to be blamed for the subprime mess, the obvious solution for upper management at lending institutions to "fix" the problem will be to eliminate wholesale, and thereby the broker. 

It has already started with firms such as BofA, WAMU, and Wachovia.  I predict Countrywide will be next. As this continues, any problems you are having with mortgage brokers will gradually be eliminated.  As far as I know, the dot.com lenders that will remain do not employ these methods.

Mio

Misty makes a great point in protesting the use of listings that agents work hard (as well as expenses) to obtain.  Mortgage brokers should be working with the agents and not use the listings as an easy lead source.  Today's market illustrates what us old mortgage brokers and bankers have said for ages. You can't sell it, if you can't finance it.

It does seem that both industries are adversaries rather than intergral partners. We are naturally at odds due to the underwriting requirements of lending programs.  A number of borrowers simply could not afford the payments.  Woe onto a broker who had the gall to tell a borrower they couldn't afford the dream house.  They not only lost the borrowers business but often 2 agents as well(along with their offices)

I think it vitally important to borrowers that we act as a real estate team.  I do understand that agents sell dreams, but the burden was on the mortgage industry to ensure they could afford those dreams.

Thanks Rick for sharing your thoughts.  I really like your statement "I think it's vitally important to borrowers that we act as a real estate team".   I completely agree.

Hi,

Thanks for the alert.  I haven't seen a lot of this (of course it could be happening without my knowing), but I will read your post at our next office meeting.  Seems to me the real danger of this is if the mortgage broker is just snatching listings and referring them to a different selling agent instead of back to the listing agent (perhaps even for a fee).  I suppose the listing agent still makes the sale, but it still smells funny.

I would like to see the originator posts that went over the line. My thoughts are that an originator has access to post about a non exclusive subdivision, if done from an local information perspective - not implying that the orginator is selling the properties.

But I think permission is needed from any active developers and agents. I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

Permission is part of developing a business relationship.

Richard

One of the mortgage brokers I work with offered this as a service to me -- they provide me an 800# call capture sign to put in front of my listing, they add my listing to their website and I had the option of following up with the 800# leads or letting them do it.  Of course, I said that I would be the first point of contact (otherwise it is just TACKY!) and then if the person is interested in the home, I would provide them with the mortgage brokers phone number.  Not a bad scenario, but if loan officers / brokers are going this without your permission, it is an unethical -- and possibly illegal -- practice.