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And someone was murdered in my garage.

The escrow closed, the Buyers were happy. A year later I get a call from the Buyer saying a neighbor had told them there was a violent murder in their garage prior to their occupancy. My daughter lives in this community and the only murder I have been aware of in the town in the past 10 years was a drowning in an upstairs bathtub, many blocks from their home. I call the listing agent, she checks with her Sellers who say they are unaware of any murder in the house. They owned the house for 2 years prior to putting it on the market. I call the police department, it is a small community, 32,000 population, so everyone knows everything. I get a resounding no there was never a murder at that address or on that street. I call my clients and they relax. A few months later I get the same call, only this time there is sleep disturbances, ill health and strange noises in the night. They want to be made whole and it is a declining market...much as the one we are experiencing now. They want my Brokerage to buy the home. I once again call the police department and bingo, there was a violent murder in the garage some 5 years prior to their occupancy. I check the law for the State and time for disclosure has passed. I call my Buyers and tell them that there was indeed a murder and the Brokerage I work for has no legal responsibility for my lack of disclosure and assure them that although the time for disclosure had lapsed I would have, had I known, disclosed the information to them. I offer to sell the home for them. Is there a way to find out accurate information from Government Entities which I am unaware of? Why would a neighbor tell one set of neighbors, living in a crime scene home of the crime and not tell the previous neighbors?

Posted by Shirley Byrd-Solem on 07/30/2008 04:31 PM

Comments (57)

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57 Comments on And someone was murdered in my garage.

JUL

2008

Wow! Shirley, in our state, we aren't allowed to disclose violent death, AIDS or sexual predators even if we are aware of the details.

Anyway, in your case, the listing agent and sellers to your client weren't aware and even the police department on the first inquiry. I don't feel that you have any liability whatsoever. Good luck with a tough situation.

You're definitely not responsible for not disclosing something you didn't know (double neg).

I have a feeling that the previous owners are lying about not knowing. You should find out who told the current owners, and ask them if the previous owners knew. I'd do a bit of detective work (or have the current owner do it) and try to find facts about the previous owners knowing. Regardless of time frames... this is a material fact that could alter the buyers' decision.

Cameron Novak, Broker
The Homefinding CenterTM
Corona, California

Corona Real Estate Agents

P.S. I'm not a real estate attorney... the preceding was simply my opinion.

Cameron's idea is pretty strong. (Just watching this post to see what people around the country say.)

Thanks Mark, This is way behind me. It all turned out okay for everyone. My frustration comes from having to experience the same slodgy attitude from Government Employees everywhere I practice Real Estate. Our clients, who entrust the largest single asset they will probably have in their lifetime to us and we can't get accurate information to impart to them. I have resorted to having my clients do their own due dilligence as I am unwilling to pass on information which may, or may not, be correct. In my opinion it should not be that way.

Good point. We have a buyer advisory here in Arizona that covers the violent crime issue as well as links to other places for information.

It's a relief to hear that you were outside the time frame in regards to disclosing that type of information. I would wonder why the neighbor would divulge this information to your client. In addition doingdetective work, it's tough to say. I was a police officer for 12 years prior to entering real estate. I believe you did your job. If you collect information that is incorrect this would open up another can of worms. Especially if the clients made a decision based on your findings.

It is true that homes carry energy from events prior, can't explain why, just know it is true, both good and bad. I always encourage my buyers to be aware of any energy they feel from a house and that it is not silly to listen to gut feelings they may have about a house.

I have been in some homes that for no outward reason were scary. Don't know if anyone could feel or sense anything on this one or not, but it sounds like they can now. I do know energies can be changed. I once listed a house that had been used for Satan Worship. ( still complete with evidence of the animal sacrifices inside. ) The owners had had the renters from Hell ( I think maybe literally) and were scared to even come near the home. I could never understand at first why they would not meet me there. I do know that even before I figured out what had happened there the house gave me the willies. One of my investors a big burly Merchant Marine who is scared of nothing found himself very uncomfortable there when I showed it to him and left in a hurry.

Later I could not get even the most hard core investors to so much as enter the place, even though the ads for it attracted them in droves....so when I only had 2 days left to sell it since it was in foreclosure I got desparate. I was early meeting the latest investor and was wondering how to get it sold when I decided to do something about the energy of the house. I had no way to clean it in the half an hour I had before he arrived, in fact I was waiting outside nursing my baby at the time and did not want to bring her in there....so......

First I prayed. I prayed for how to help the clients who really needed to be saved from foreclosure and then I prayed for wisdom in what to do. Then an image came to me and I began to concentrate on it. I visualized the entire place being washed out with ( no you're not reading wrong) Mama's milk. The image just came to me, but I think it is because it is the most precious and pure and good fluid on the planet. For an entire almost half hour I visualized it being washed out with the mother's milk while nursing my little girl. Then when it felt I had done that enough I visualized it all remodeled and cleaned out and bright inside and I visualized the new people living there and being together in it happy.

A couple minutes after that the buyers got there. When I opened the door the energy of the home was very different than before ( I had just shown it to another investor who like most of the others had stopped at the front door and not entered) The investor entered the home and commented that while it really needed work, they could just see it all fixed up with some one living there. They made an all cash offer with a 3 day closing on the spot. I also showed it in the next day to 2 more investors who made back up offers on it.

Ok, i'm just rambling now, but would it make a difference for you and the owners to do some very strong visualizations of moving the negative energy out of the house if they are in a situation where they cannot move?

Many of my asian clients take issue with homes that have had someone pass away inside, violently or not. It's certainly not something I'm asked about often.

I'm curious if the buyers would have had these spooky feelings if the neighor had kept quite (as she should have). Can't imagine why anyone would want to knock the shine off of someones new home purchase by telling them such a thing.

Shirley, here in Louisiana we are not to disclosure such acts. The property did not cause the act. DD is always recommend and seems that the buyers could have check on criminal activity in the area before they purchase.

You should ask them if they do wish to sell the home, do they intend to disclose the death?

Great post and an interesting issue. Here in VA, we are not allowed to disclose information of that nature unless you are the listing agent and the information may help sell the home. As a buyers agent, I stay strictly away from that sort of information, and direct the home buyer to make phone calls. I give them numbers to local police, info on our local newspaper archives and any other relevant contact data. However, the burden of research is on them.

As Ray said here in Va this is not a disclosure issue. I always recommend buyer client/customer call the police department about any property. Explaining... I'm not a crime expert, I broker real estate.

My guess is, the neighbor wants the house for themselves or they want those people to move out!

Here in Illinois we are not allowed to disclose any information of violence, AIDS etc.

However, we are told that if asked we are to refer the buyer to the Police Department.

Shirley,

Interesting. I know the law varies from state to state, but there is no requirement to disclose any criminal activity in the home in the state of Washington with the exception of the home being used as a meth lab. Here the thought is that a murder can change the buyers phychological feelings about the home but not the material value of the home and is therefore not necessary to disclose.

It is a shame your buyer's can't enjoy the house anyway. What happened isn't a reflection of the house but the people who used to be in it. And they are long gone.

Wow, I liked Anna's story. I'd like someone like her to get the good vibes flowing in the house before showing it. She could get a consultants fee for every home sold. I'm glad the disclosure thing worked out. We are not required to report such things in Florida, and some things we are not allowed to report.

I remember the block I use to live on had a violent murder take place. Not to long after that it went up for sale. It was not disclose to the new buyers. This is not something that would have to be disclosed.

I love this story. Not to one up you but several years ago my parents were looking to buy a house they loved it. My uncle starts snooping around and asked hey what is this. It looked like blood. We asked and she said the same. " nothing that I know of" sure enough a murder same thing small town yet she knew nothing about it.

Oh well good luck

how scary i would freak out if that happened to me

Maybe the sellers knew and did not say anything, maybe the neighbor does not like your Buyers and wants to creep them out. Sorry this happened to you and your buyers.

Here is one for you, there was a murder a few years back and the house was sold, by a realtor that knew of the situation to the realtor's daughter, creepy.

Shirley, in response to your question about getting straight answers from governments - I wish. I have found the only real people who act accountable are the elected officials, who want to continue in that office. It sounds like the issue is over, but for peace of mind, I would present your story to the City Council at a meeting, as part of the record, so they are aware and that staff knows they are aware.

In regard to the responses, I am surprised about that states that 'don't allow' disclosure on certain issues. Ca only disallows disclosure on issues affecting protected classes, murderees or murders not being a protected class. Ca is also the most litigous state in the US and probably the world.

In Florida we are not required to disclose this either. Suicide, AIDS, murder, etc are not considered to be material facts. These are called stigmatized properties.In fact as the listing agent you could do your seller harm by doing so. It can be a touchy issue, but I think if I ever had such a property offered to me as an agent, I would call the FAR legal hotline to confirm what I should and should not do. I believe we would be violating our fiduciary responsibilities if we disclosed this without written permission from the seller(s). Certainly the home has nothing to do with any act that happens in it. Does not seem fair to penalize the owners due to something they had no control over. Suppose it were there son who was murdered or committed suicide there, and for that reason they want to move (understandably), now we are going to say, sorry we will tell everyone what happened and you wil find yourselves stuck in this home that has bad memories?? I, sadly, know some people that will not buy a home if they find out that someone from this race or that one lived there previously. Does that matter? Of course not. At some point we have to let unfounded fears go. If you live in the northeastern US it is very likely that in many of the older homes someone died there. Sometimes if it is not required and is not material, it is better not to know everything about a home. It is too bad that the neighbors feel that it is their job to taint a buyer's joy at buying a new home, especially when it in NO WAY affects the home itself. Some people just like making others feel bad. Sad commentary on today's world. I also wonder if there may be some hidden motivation on their part to get the buyer to want to leave. If any buyers are really that concerned and want to find out for sure, they should be able to call the local police who should have computerized records of crimes at a property. As for AIDS and HIV, that is no one's business and shame on the neighbor that goes spreading tales or the agents that allow discrimination to take place. As a side note, it is my understanding that these victims are a protected class just as the handicapped are. So I would be very careful in bringing this topic up, whether by an agent or a neighbor. HUD takes a very dim view on these violations.

In many states it's considered a Material Fact and disclosure is required. Other states require nothing. HOWEVER, I have purchased two houses under such circumstances and they have proved difficult to sell. One in NV and one in CA. The NV house was a simple death of natural causes. The CA house was a murder suicide that included four people. We held the house for 21 months.

We were told by neighbors in both cases.

Greg

Anna, thank you for your response. I too have known houses I refused to go into due to the terrible energy that could be, in one instance, felt prior to entering the house. Yes, energy can be changed. Thank you for your wonderful perspective.

Shirley

Here in Oregon, we are not allowed to tell anyone anything about any homicides, suicides, or even regular death. Even if they ask. We are supposed to refer them to their local police agency, and they can find out. Amazingly, even if someone told us their was a violent crime, etc, we can not disclose it. I'd be careful and definitely look up your state and local requirements for such things.

Wow!! That is crazy! There is a guy in my neighborhood who shot and killed someone in his garage. A few months ago he listed-- and sold -- his home For sale by Owner. I always wonder if he told the new home owners of the history...

Thank you, Molly, for your comments. I am working in Oregon presently. I know the rules here, which vary from State to State. Your advice is sound.

Shirley

Isn't it always something! Some sellers and buyers will use any excuse to get out of a house they decided was not their cup of tea(or have $$$ problems). Ghosts aren't always a bad thing(remember Casper?) Abusers you have to live with could be worse. I hate you had to go through this.

I'm glad in Florida that there is no requirement to disclose... Why would anyone do that to a neighbor?

Greg, hard to believe that in this day and age there are still states that require such disclosures. I feel sorry for the innocent seller who will lose money for no good reason.

I showed a home in a neighborhood community outside Ann Arbor, there was a murder committed there, I had no clue. It had a funny odor to it which we were going to check out. As we were leaving a Realtor who is a neighbor came over as she recognized my car and told me about it. I told the buyers and that was the end of that.

Not an item we need to disclose in my area. Maybe the neighbors did tell the previous neighbors which is why they moved. We can't be held responsible for what we don't know.

There is no requirement to disclose here either. Seems like someone is trying to get out of something... and this is an excuse that won't work.

In CA, sellers have to disclose any deaths within three years.

I am shocked that other states prohibit sellers from disclosing and also surprised by the comments that say it is not the house's fault . . . from a Feng Shui and energy perspective, what happens in a house is considered very important . . . in F.S. it is referred to as "predecessor energy." How it could not be considered important is beyond me, especially since most people understand it would turn others off. The reason it turns people off is not superstition, but real icky feelings and other negative emotional states. It is real when you can't sleep because you feel freaked out by your house!!!

I liked the story in the comments above about praying and cleansing the energy through intention. I think that is powerful.

Shirley,

In California, we have to disclose deaths in a home if it happened within 3 years. But if you know something happened earlier than that, I would still disclose it. I would rather err on the side of caution. I believe that the "negative energy' of a violent crime, death, or suicide stays within the home.

It is interesting how the rules for this sort of thing vary from state to state.

People die, that the reality of life. Can't exactly burn all the homes down that someone died in at some point in time. Its peoples imagination that makes it "icky". If you went and told someone that there was a violent death in a home and the story was completely fabricated, they would still claim to feel the bad vibes and "icky" energy of the death. Its nothing more than a placebo effect.

I stayed a month at the home my grandfather left me when he passed away, though he didn't die there, his wife had passed away there from cancer after a long fight. I slept in the very bed she layed in all those months, and died in. I had no icky feelings, no ghostly visions, no odd energy. I didn't know she had stayed in the guest room all that time, I assumed she was in their room.

Sometimes, ignorance is bliss.

I have a similar story Shirley, with a better ending. I hadn't thought about this in years. I listed a house inwhich a previous owner committed suicide in the bathtub. This was before Oregon Law said that death in a house is not a material fact. The only reason I found out was by talking to neighbors at an open house. This presented me with a delimina. I was going to have a talk with my out of state seller when we got a serious offer. Another Realtor and her buyers had toured the property a couple of times and brought their contractor for an inspection before they ever made an offer. During one of these trips a neighbor had to run over and warn them about the death. (Just being helpful I guess! Actually his house was the scene of a brutal murder that he knew nothing of before he bought his house! He was mad about that!) It made very little difference to the buyers and they bought the house. This issue bothers some people and not others.

I always talk to neighbors when I represent buyers. I even have it on my checklist.

I know of no database about deaths in houses. Think of how many people die at home. It's a large number. There is a database for where sex offenders live.

Good Luck.

JUL

2008

I can't see you being responsible for disclosing something of which you were not aware, especially something that is not apparent, like this.

here in CA, we do have to disclose if there was a death in the home if it happend within the last 3 years. We do not have to disclose what they died of.

I agree with John, but I would want to know if I was a buyer even beyond three years

Hi Shirley,

A year or so ago we had a listing in a upscale neighborhood. We had a Broker's open and had 30-40 agents come look at the house. A couple of days later I received a phone call from an agent telling me that another agent had called them and said that the builder of my listing had committed suicide in the garage of this home. I did not know what to do, but this agent not only had told one other agent but had told many agents. I started checking into it only to find out that the builder did commit suicide, but not in my listing. It was in his own home which was almost an exact duplicate. My Broker contacted the agent spreading the rumors and advised him to start calling every agent he had talked to and straighten things out or my seller might consider legal action. Thankfully we sold the home within 30 days and there were no problems.

Sadly, several years ago a Seattle agent was murdered and left the closet of a home he was to show. He was not the listing agent, and the home was already facing foreclosure. Can't imagine that house selling after that. The murder was never solved.

Interesting. I thought we were supposed to disclose of any violent deaths that may have occurred in a house if we know of them? However, since you did not know, I don't think you have any liability. Also, how are we to know what goes on in every house that's on the market? I don't read the newspaper everyday. The neighbors really are the best source of info. I showed a house about a month ago to someone who lived right down the road from it. The buyer told me whlie we were there that a lady hung herself in the garage there. I had no idea!

You don't mention why the sellers left after only two years? Valid reason? You certainly are not to blame, due diligence was totally met........ I think sometimes the KNOWLEDGE of an untimely death causes "bad" energy to seep into people's minds - funny how they were happy up until the DIMWIT neighbor just HAD to share ;(

Man, disclosure needs to end somewhere. How much can you possibly learn about the life history of a peice of property. Maybe in 1709 an indian killed some buffalo there. LOL

Good lord what a mess that was! Here in SC we do have to disclose those things (if known). The last post here from VLS reflects my feelings exactly. How far back should we realistically have to go?

Michael Carter, Realtor Greenville, SC www.beachboyrealestate.com

Shirley,

The Oregon Real Etate Agency provides the following answer to your dilema on their FAQ page:

"The fact or suspicion that the property was the site of a death by violent crime, by suicide or by any other manner is not a material fact in a real estate transaction as a matter of law. [ORS 93.275(1)(a)]"

Therefore this issue, in the state of Oregon, is not so much one of law but of ethics and representation. As the buyer's representative were you provided with any previous knowledge of the murder and at any time and/or did your buyers state that they could not or would not live in a property where a death of a violent nature had occurred? From your post I would surmise that you did your due dilligence. You may want to verify this through the legal hotline offered by OAR as well, they are extremely helpful.

This does not stop the fact that we live in a particularly litigious society/state so I do wish you the best of luck.

Wow...summertime HELL! I cannot see why you would be responsible for not disclosing this information when you did not know anything about the murder. I am amazed this varies from state to state. In Arizona, we are to refer them to the local police and they can find out that information correctly rather then hear say. Good luck!

Cheron Lange

The buyers should use their own resources and contact local law enforcement to discover any events that they may need to know of. The question remains, does the murder or lack thereof have an effect on the value?

Wow, what a frustration! In Texas deaths that aren't natural on a property must be disclosed, and even buyers that are interested in estate homes typically want to know if the death was on the property or not. Even though it doesn't make sense, it can affect home values.

Was the murder solved and was the perpetrator prosecuted? That would be their question now.

Murder has to be disclosed in our state but only if you are aware or should be aware. Just to be sure, I give my buyers the web sites for Sexual Predators and the Sheriff's Department, etc., to verify any issues prior to close. It also states they are to find their own resources. Plus, they have to sign a removal of these and all other contingencies prior to close.

When times are bad even the nicest of Buyers may try to find a way out and they usually start by finding fault with the Agent/Brokerage.

I LOVE THIS BUSINESS!!!! There is no other business I know of where you can have such a wild ride in one day, except perhaps the job of a bronch rider. We can be on top of the mountain and in the deepest valley in a 10 minute time frame. From naked people showering , on tour day, to climbing through windows in mini skirts and high heals to rescue a forgotten key pad after having locked the door, to chasing a cat you let out for half a day, only to discover, "it is an indoor/outdoor cat, it's okay." I love it all! Undisclosed Murders, child preditors on the street, short sales, it is all part of our most rewarding choice of service career and as for me and my house, it has been ever so rewarding. Thank you for your comments, advice and good wishes regarding this blog. I have appreciated all of your comments and encouragement. Lets all go out and get er done!!!

Shirley

AUG

2008

Shirley, Boy you must love this business. I did do a BPO on a house on an island. The house had blood stains all over the carpet and walls and really gave me the creeps. I then missed the last ferry off the island which left at 6:30pm. I slept in my car near the house and it was cold but there was no way I was going in that house with no power...

In the State of Nevada, we are not allowed to disclose a murder, violent death, Ghosts, AIDS, or sexual predators.

Sounds to me like they may have a case, as unfortunate as it is. Maybe you can sell the home for them for free, and sell them their next home for free and get a release signed. Otherwise, if they get in front of a jury not smart enough to get out of jury duty, there could be problems.

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