DiamondsI ponder things.  I'm a ponderer.  I mull this way and consider that way and-- when I'm in the mood-- I ponder from many angles.  And recently I started pondering about this whole online lead question.  After considerable pondering, I became convinced of two things:  1) online leads are clearly diamonds in the rough and 2) a lot of people have a strange sense of entitlement when it comes to who should get to extract these diamonds.  

For years I've watched [and occasionally participated in] the debate about online leads and the many lead generation companies that provide them to REALTORS®.  Clearly there are folks who have used lead generators and have benefitted from them-- just as there are those that have used them and didn't.  Judging anecdotally from the commentary, more people have tried them and failed than have tried and succeeded-- a challenge certainly for the lead generators because success and failure both breed word-of-mouth marketing.  Is the failure-to-success ratio because of some inherent deficiency in the lead quality delivered or is it because so many users fall onto the wrong side of the typical sales production 80-20 curve?

The typical argument I've seen against the existence of lead generators is that they step 'in between' the lead and the REALTOR® that should be receiving the lead naturally.  The argument is that the lead generators usurp the natural order, act as an interloper and cart away value that should be going to "A" and rather, they sell it to "B" without adding value.  And there's a strong sentiment against them existing-- for just that reason.  But are they truly adding 'no value' and who, rightfully should be entitled to an online lead?  I guess it depends on whether you're 'in the 80' or 'in the 20' in several ways.

PanningIf you're in the 20 that jumped up and established an online presence early, learned the game thoroughly, and mastered how to drive lead volumes, you likely think that online opportunities searching your town should be yours.  You earned them with your online efforts.  But if you're in the 80, you disagree.  You prefer to receive 'value' by having someone else establish a presence, learn the game, and master the traffic rules for you.  Some of you in the 20 are also 'in the 20' with your sales skills-- but, of course, some of you aren't.  Getting the leads and closing the leads isn't always synonymous.  Likewise, a healthy volume of folks willing to pay a lead generator to deliver that 'value' they won't or can't deliver to themselves will find themselves falling similarly into the 80 with respect to their sales skills. 

Yellow DiamondWhen 20's get leads-- either from their own efforts or from a lead generator, they receive tremendous value.  When 80's get them, there's little 'value' received because 80's aren't especially good at extracting it.  Whether you're great at managing your own online lead generation or paying someone to do it for you, it's still a job for you to extract the latent 'value' from the lead.  And 20's do that better than 80's because they're simply better at mining for online diamonds than the 80's.  They see the rock in its rough state and they know what to do to extract it.  They separate it from the ore it rests in.  They polish it.  They cut it.  They make an ordinary rock with seemingly no value sparkle and they create wealth!  The 80's often never notice the rock, won't polish, can't cut and consequently perceive little value. 

Chris Hendricks 

 

 

 

40 Comments on Who's Entitled to the "Lead" Online-- the 80 or the 20?

MAR
26
2007
It's amazing how many people who don't work hard to be excellent blame their lack of success on lousy leads.  Very Glen Garry, Glen Ross.
David Dollar
7:44pm • #1
2 Featured Posts
I really think it is more like 90/10.  All it comes down to is follow up.
9:28pm • #2
3 Featured Posts
Im surprised there are so few responses to this post, must be more like 95/5
9:45pm • #3
2 Featured Posts
Those of us who constantly work hard to create our own oppurtunities will always be a minority.  It's the same in most cases, the harder something is to aquire, the greater it's value. 
9:59pm • #4
2 Featured Posts
As a business owner it is clear!  The person or people that get the leads are the ones that will deliver the highest percentage of closed transactions.  Period. 
10:05pm • #5
135,584 Points 19 Featured Posts Outside Blog
I'm surprised how few agents bother to follow up on or work their leads. The way our company works is that all leads are passed to the agents (no referral fee) but you must sign on and accept the lead within a certain amount of time. The ones that aren't accepted are reassigned to ensure great customer service. It never ceases to amaze me how many agents are ignoring this powerful lead generation tool...but that's okay with me...I'm perfectly happy to take that rough rock, polish it, cut it...and laugh all the way to the bank!
10:06pm • #6
2 Featured Posts

There was an article recently that said it's now 93% and 7%.

There are leads everywhere. It's our job to establish that the "lead" is a lead and then to convert that lead into a client. Lots of agents try and many give up.

The old "follow-up, follow-up" is so true.

10:11pm • #7
416,319 Points 21 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
I got on to say 93/7 but it appears that I am not the only one that feels that way. 
10:27pm • #8
1 Featured Post
I have not been able to bring myself to buying leads... for onething I don't trust most of the companies and how they get their leads, and I've also never met someone who has been successful prospecting them. I am open to having my view changed though if I can see  it in action!
10:29pm • #9
I'm new to the on-line lead program.  So far, I find it to be a lot more time consuming (hours per day), but much more productive than cold calling.  The leads that I am getting are at least a little interested in real estate, so at least I don't have to convince them that they are.
10:33pm • #10
115,687 Points 1 Featured Post Outside Blog

The 80/20 concept has been around forever and in MY experience, in multiple industries and jobs - has proven to be true.

When we READ the Active Rain blogs and comments........ how many of us think we are in the 80% that do 20% of the biz in our respective companies?

 

I'd say 1% :^O

10:48pm • #11
The 80/20 rule has always been around. In my area, it is more like 95/5.  Right now, I know that I am in the 95 but am trying to change that and get to the 5.
11:06pm • #12
115,687 Points 1 Featured Post Outside Blog

Kevin - so honest, so refreshing.

With that attitude , I suspect you may be IN the 5%.

 

11:16pm • #13
1 Featured Post
I have been working internet leads exclusively for 5 years and I can tell you they do work if you are persistant and understand how the internet lead works.
11:17pm • #14
MAR
27
2007
3 Featured Posts

Excellent Blog, extremely well written!  For those of us that work and nurture our leads and watch them grow, mature and then close, we know most often it can be a long road.  For anyone that has read this and just believes its not true, the key is to start today, tomorrow and every day and over time they start closing faster and faster.  Patience is key and a lot of these leads want to keep their anonymity until they are ready to come out of the closet.  A good drip campaign is a must.

Well are you and "80   or a "20"?  To be a "20" requires work and perseverance!  Amazing, to be successful also requires work and perseverance!  Almost anyone can be an "80"!

 

Great Blog Chris! 

Don Rich

12:01am • #15
Outside Blog
I believe to work internet leads successfully you need to have a good system. Know what to ask and how to ask. Qualify your leads quickley so you can move through them at fairly decent rate. But, I do believe you need should tap into other avenues to develop your business. They are a good way for new agents to develop their skills. 
12:18am • #16
488,114 Points 84 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router
The biggest problem I have with many of these lead generating services is the price they charge for bad leads.  I have seen so many agents including myself sign expensive contracts with companies that just do not perform to any reasonable level.  I canceled one service in the middle of the contract because I was tired of getting John Smith.
12:33am • #17
268,899 Points 18 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Great post Chris,

We've been active in this area for about 18 months ourselves and had great success.

We've evolved our on-line dialogue skills and have found that being "conversational", "natural" and "human" as in blogging comes through in the written word too. Future clients get comfortable with you first and then decide to do business with you.

Most people don't realized that many internet requests are very early in the process - which is good because you can engage them and get them working with you first - but patience and persistence are virtues - several of the deals we're closing now started online over 12 months ago.

Asking the right qualifying questions online is as important as in person - we always find out if they're currently working with a realtor - we explain that all realtors have access to the same info and they so should pick a realtor they feel comfortable with to work with - whether it's us or not. 

The good news is that once you start things are constantly coming down the pipeline. 

12:34am • #18
20 Featured Posts

Chris- Very interesting and timely blog as there appear to be new efforts underway by online lead generators.. It has always seemed to me that the people who actually contact me are a much better source the those who are referred by another site.  When Home Gain first came out I tried it as I was intrigued by the idea.. what I found was that a vast percentage of the leads had no idea they were leads.. the had been a bit curious .. nothing more..

I took this lesson in when I set up my websites and now with my blogging.. my sit4es are user friendly... you don't have to leave your name or information... but if you do then you are looking for something that you think I may provide..I think if agents spent more money on themselves and less on House Values they would be better off..

12:34am • #19
1 Featured Post
I'm a new agent and I'm seeing that a lot other real estate professionals in my area don't even have a website! Of the ones that do, only a handful update them or have other means of online leads. I think it is definitely an achievable goal for me to be in the 'top' in my town. I'm working hard and I wont be stopping anytime soon! Thanks for the informative post!
n n
12:38am • #20
5 Featured Posts Outside Blog
I agree with Randall waayy up above! A lead is a lead is a lead! Who cares about the statistics? It doesn't matter if it is a walk in, a phone call, a on-line source if you don't follow up you'll lose the sale.
4:47am • #21
172,648 Points 10 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Good post.  For those agents that pay lead generators I would prefer that they let their offices provide the leads to them. We all pay for listings, marketing and dues so that we can place properties on the MLS.  Then the lead generators charge agents to capture clients that they obtained because they accessed what we paid to put onto the internet and MLS to begin with.  I have yet to meet any agent who had a good experience with lead generators and I find with the change in the market more and more companies are attempting to get me to sign up.  My answer is and I wish everyone would follow is that I will pay for a legitimate client, a referral fee, but never am ongoing monthly amount for stuff that doesn't amount to much.  I feel if these companies were legitimate they would agree to paid from the proceeds.

 

5:10am • #22
264,788 Points 59 Featured Posts Outside Blog
Very well put.  It's very easy on all sides of this industry to blame a lack of business on the fact that they aren't getting the so-called hot leads.  There is a reason those leads are 'hot' and the the diamond analogy you use Chris is very nice.  Personally, I'm inching into the 20% realm, yet could use some polishing in extracting my own diamond in the rough.  I'll get there:-)
5:26am • #23

I had to go through 4 online lead providers and research many others before finding the right one for me. Some of the companies had a good service, but their program did not fit me. Bottom line, 97% of online lead generators do not deliver very good leads. My lead company does not deliver very good leads. I am not the only professional the lead is sold to. It's a fight. I pay $1100 a month for 1 lead a day. I close at least one deal a month from this source. The numbers are not great, but I more than break even on my investment. I have this lead source to supplement my "old school" marketing which usually costs me next to nothing.

6:06am • #24
213,833 Points 34 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Excellent post.  Great analogy.  I'm in the 20% who got on the web early on and get plenty of my own leads.  But it is a huge amount of time to learn and implement.  The game keeps changing.  Some make lead generators into some kind of evil enterprise.  I think you explained it well. 

It might be cheaper to buy the leads than to try to generate them yourself.  You can easily spend thousands on SEO and get no where.  When Google changes you need to spend more money. One way or another, you are paying for a lead.  The key is in the conversion rate.  If you find a consistant way to convert at a profitable rate, you then have a money machine and not  a slot machine. 

6:19am • #25
4 Featured Posts

lol... I noticed the glen gary/glen ross comment... very funny!

All I have to say is whatever works for you my friend keep doing it...

I find eveything works so I try to do a little of everything.

6:22am • #26
10 Featured Posts
Nice to see a healthy reaction from the 20s and the 'soon-to-be-in-the-20s' crowd here.  One thing that some folks seem to continue to want to think is that 'hot leads' are virtual 'done-deals' that are far, far down the sales pipeline.  Internet 'leads' are really usually quite raw, quite early in the process, and ALWAYS come with substantial 'waste' (think 'the ore' decribed in the blog post itself).  If you're expecting to only pay for diamonds, go to the jewelry shop after the hard part has been done.  But if you're mining for great value, you can pay pennies on the dollar for what could be a great find-- but you have to expect to toss out a lot of ore as waste while you mine!
11:32am • #27
3 Featured Posts
No matter how leads are generated, there is always work involved in converting those leads. Those looking for the easy or quick fix will be disappointed. We need to have effective systems for everything. I find that when I neglect my follow up, my business slows down; there is a definite correlation.
8:35pm • #29
MAR
28
2007
2 Featured Posts
Chris, an additional demension to ponder....not all leads are of the same quality, the 80/20 rule also applies to them as well.  Think about it, most people go on line to get information quickly and these lead generation companies are in the business of selling leads - the information they provide in fact their advertising, not their product.  They will do anything to capture information so they can peddle it.  I'm sure we all have occationally clicked yes on somthing we did not really read or mean just to get to the information we were looking at.  While it is true everyone is a potential buyer but many are perpetual browsers.
4:45am • #30
10 Featured Posts
Tom:  I wouldn't disagree with you regarding the lead quality issue.  In fact, I've long been more supportive of products that can be categorized as online traffic that represents 'opportunities' rather than 'leads'-- leads implies a state of readiness to transact that often is simply not there yet with online activity.  I don't personally feel that a pay-per-lead economic structure makes a lot of sense for this very reason-- you encourage people to 'become' leads when they don't necessarily realize it.  Better, to me, is a stream of traffic, or opportunities-- priced accordingly-- that can be evaluated and nurtured for the various nuggets that actually ARE there.
11:12am • #31

Nice Chris Nice. Loved the blog. I don't use online leads but that sounds great. Keep up the good work

Ben

12:03pm • #32
2 Featured Posts

I have a question about your "leads" vs "opportunity" thinking.  In practical terms what would be difference?  I am new to the online market place, and most of my business comes from good old fashion relationships.  I would love to get more business from the web (I am a loan officer) but it seems difficult to generate quality purchase business that way for me.  It seems that the online traffic wants to see homes and are much more interested in Real Estate sites than mortgage sites. 

Any suggestions??

2:09pm • #33
10 Featured Posts

Olan:  In practical terms there might not be a difference but in terms of managing my own sanity about this I treat them differently when managing my expectations.  To me, a "lead" has made some demonstrable step toward a transaction with a finite time horizon stated-- however long that might be.  An "opportunity" is just that-- still a possibility but so early in the research phase that they haven't identified any time horizon for taking action.  Everyone in my neighborhood is an 'opportunity' to me.  The ones that have come and talked to me about the possibility of buying printing from me are 'leads' I can incubate toward a deal.

I have some thoughts about how mortgage business online can get done and how you might go about it.  Shoot me a note or a call and let's kick it around off the blog.  If it turns out my stuff is a good idea, you can have a head start before I blog it to the world!

5:11pm • #34
MAR
29
2007
I generate my own leads and also receive company leads. I feel that if you followup until they buy,sell or give up, you have done well. I never give up a lead. I have leads that are 3+ years old. I have had leads that are seemingly dead, then one day they call ready to buy or sell due to my continued efforts!
1:19pm • #35
166,673 Points
The only way the lead generators can generate is if they compete with listing agents by using listing agents' listings.  I think the NW MLS has a good idea in stoping the feed to the lead generators.
1:46pm • #36
JUN
07
2007

Funny how timing works.  I just closed a deal from a lead I received last year and have been working since then and now I read this.  I'm convinced!

7:52pm • #37
142,563 Points 4 Featured Posts Outside Blog

There are two kinds of leads.  The best one is the lead from a mutual friendHere's why: While the agent and the prospect may not know each other, each has confidence that their friend wouldn't have "done them in."  So those leads usually mature into a sale and new leads.

The second kind are pseudo-credible leads.  They're the "prospects" who were wondering what it would cost if they were to buy a house in Denver and move there from their $65,000 Alvin, Texas bungalow. And as they search the web they come upon one of those lead companies, and it is disguised.  The pseudo-prospect thinks he'll be dealing with a pseudo-Realtor when he clicks on "send."  It's all a joke, afterall.  Serious  people aren't on either end, he reasons.

So the lead company sends that pseudo-credible lead to one of its subscribers, and the subscriber has to pay for it, irrespective of whether or not it generates a sale.  And if that isn't bad enough, many of the lead companies send that same lead to others, charging them as well.  Many times you can never reach the pseudo-prospect.  Sometimes I have tracked them down through the tax rolls, only to find out that they have seriously overstated the value of their home.

The lead company rationalizes that if you sell one house out of, say, 50 of their leads, after you subtract the cost of all the leads it took you to get to a sale, you're a thousand bucks richer than you would have been. 

Well, that's false economy for sure.  If the agent had devoted his time to generating leads of the first category above...the mutual friend leads, he would have made far more money, had far more closings and invested far less time.

Frankly there is no easy way to get successful leads.  You have to work for them.

BILL CHERRY, DALLAS BROKER-REALTOR. 972 380-7347

MY 43RD YEAR SELLING TEXAS

MEET ME ON THE WEB: WWW.BILLCHERRYBROKER.COM

8:40pm • #38
SEP
11
2007

Re: "The typical argument I've seen against the existence of lead generators is that they step 'in between' the lead and the REALTOR® that should be receiving the lead naturally.  The argument is that the lead generators usurp the natural order, act as an interloper and cart away value that should be going to "A" and rather, they sell it to "B" without adding value.  And there's a strong sentiment against them existing-- for just that reason."

 

This argument is tough to defend.  If someone wants to sell their house, the local agent does not have the "right" to that person.  The seller has the "right" to choose whichever agent they feel comfortable with. It just so happens that they go online for their search.  And how one receives a lead "naturally" I'm not quite sure, but the internet is very natural today. 

Other examples of common go-between companies:

Shopping.com

Shopzilla.com

ebay.com

amazon.com

and ANY other website engaged in merely lisitng companies in a particular industry

bizrate.com

pricegrabber.com

etc. I just Googled "Comparison shopping" and found over 47 million websites.

These sites don't sell things themselves. They merely give you an avenue to find what you're looking for and then charge the participating website a fee for doing business with you. So, it is generally the same concept. The customer ends up actually paying more for the item due to having to pay to sell it on their websites.

There is, however, a company out there that doesn't charge for online leads, and is truely pay-for-performance only. HomeValueStore.com.  What a concept. Oh yeah, and the lead is "exclusive".

So, don't rule out online real estate leads just yet, thousands of people sell, buy, and refi their homes every day from an agent they chose due to an online "lead".

Best Regards,

Criss 

 

11:28pm • #39
SEP
12
2007
10 Featured Posts
I was with you right up until the point about the customer paying more for the item... where I generally disagree.  The "efficiency" factor that allows a customer to "find" what they're searching for comes at some expense but generally I think the cost of being "efficiently connected" with a solid prospect is less expensive than general marketing that seeks to reach a mass market and cull through these to find solid prospects.  Given the elimination of spending to 'touch' the masses, ROI is generally better and consequently the ultimate cost of the marketing paid by the consumer is less-- not more.
11:40am • #40

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Chris Hendricks

Oakland, CA

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