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Ethics Is As Ethics Does!

Have you ever been accused of being unethical? I have. In fact, I've been accused many times. In ALL cases they were wrong. Here are some of the practices where I have been accused of being unethical.

I received a larger check than the selling agent at closing. I actually had a Broker threaten to sue me over this!!

A Seller, who was currently listed, called me and I met with them and took a post dated listing.

I won't show a listing that has a less then adequate co-broke. AND...I'll tell my Buyer this.

A Seller, who was currently listed, received a solicitation from me by mail.

A Seller, that was listed with one of my competitors for property management, called me to list their house for sale and I did.

My practice of "Range Pricing" has been called unethical so many times I've lost count.

Accusing someone of being unethical is a very serious matter. I've actually seen it many times here on ActiveRain. I'm sure you have too. Someone writes a "rant" about another REALTOR® and accuses them of being unethical when the reality is they are wrong, very wrong.

Here's something that may help:

In filing a charge of an alleged violation of the Code of Ethics by a REALTOR^®, the charge must read as an alleged violation of one or more Articles of the Code. Standards of Practice may be cited in support of the charge.

That came directly from the CoE. So wouldn't it make sense than whenever and wherever you accuse someone of a CoE violation that you back it up by citing the applicable Article? Maybe, just maybe, by having to research the CoE, to find the violation, you'll find out there was NO violation.

Folks, just because you feel something is wrong or you have been mistreated does not in anyway mean something is "unethical". If you are going to play the "unethical" card you best make sure you know what you are talking about or it may just come back at you. Make sense?

THE REALTOR(R) CODE OF ETHICS

Posted by Bryant Tutas Broker/REALTOR(R) Tutas Towne Realty, Inc on 08/24/2008 05:54 PM

Comments (97)

ethics

97 Comments on Ethics Is As Ethics Does!

AUG

2008

Reserved Parking For "The Lovely Wife"...TLW...ROAR!

Blog Boy...

Sooner or later we are going to see ethics complaints related to some of the rants that we read here on AR.

It doesn't seem to matter how often we encourage folks to watch what they say. It has become clear that some folks have never actually read the COE. If you can't back it up then shut it up.

P.S. I just deleted the rest of that paragraph. You can thank me later :)

TLW...ROAR!

Bryant. That was some good points. You have to be ready for anything. Doing the right thing is still the right thing to do. Royal..

I certainly don't disagree with you. However, having filed 'two' complaints in 17 years, to only have the agents receive a hand slap for being naughty and don't do that again. And I had the goods, in writing with witness statements.......so much for all of that stuff. One was over commissions. The agent still owes me almost $80,000. I have a judgment but cannot collect as the agent has no assets. I took the agent to the RE division. They know the name well, yet still could not get it done.

If you are going to take on the task, take the time, and file a complaint, you must expect to lose. If you cannot just take their license away and bury them, then why bother.

Very timely.

I read a post yesterday that questioned the ethics of a buyer's agent who wrote on one of the writer's listings.

I read the scenario and didn't see any ethical violation. As I wrote, it saddens me to see accusations of ethical violations tossed around when none exists. The post was full of what this or that person said or did but nothing from the COE. In fact there was nothing in the actions of the Buyer's Agent that wouldn't be permitted by contract in my area. Buyers, through their agents, often try to negotiate up to the day of settlement. The seller doesn't have to respond. Nor is it unethical for a buyer, through their agent, to request price changes for defects even though the contract says "as is". We've gotten many concessions from banks, short sale mortgage companies and sellers despite the "as is" clause. As far as know, all resale real estate is sold "as is". That doesn't mean you can't ask for repairs or concessions.

That post disturbed me because the Buyer's Agent was working vigorously to represent their client and the seller's agent simply didn't know how to handle negotiations. I aaw no ethical violations. It doesn't take a lot of skill to charge ethical violations when an agent can't handle or manage a transaction.

Now I'm GONE.

BB
You must make certain that there is an actual CoE violation before filing a charge. Is there any consequences to the person making false charges? Stevo

For the record, there is no (*%#$^() 50/50 rule.

The COE permits post dated listing and concurrent listings from another agent for another service.

I don't show low co-brokes either unless my buyer agrees to pay the difference or asks the seller for funds to pay me. I'm engaged, not indentured.

I don't send mail to anyone anymore, but if Iwanted to, I could as long as I did not select the list from the ACTIVE listings in the MLS.

Range pricing is a great tool for Buyer's Agents. We don't have many here.

I didn't even have to check the COE. Most of this stuff is also plain old common sense.

BB, so often I think CoE is just common sense and respect. We can get pretty far away from that at times. People can get disturbed about just about anything these days.

Even without looking up the COE, I know a few things that ARE NOT violations. I get this pretty often too, and sometimes agents get angry with me, let's say when we write the assignement on a contract, whihc was assignable. The Seller's agent is frustrated with us changing everything, but I am not here to please the agent and make their work easy. If I can, it is great, but if, representing my client, I cause more work for the agent, I am not even sorry.

Looked at you hillarios video. $199.99 and you will list it? And I got it about 50c on a dollar. This is an unprecendent guarantee, you should be getting a line of clients waiting to sign up (LOL)

BRYANT, I think life is too short to get caught up in seeing how I have been wronged. Now if it was a true ethics violation against my client I would fight tooth and nail.

Lenn, The post you referred to in your first comment is what spawned this one. I too found it very disturbing that someone would even think that what happened was unethical. It was contract negotiations for Pete's sake!!! All I can say is that the public is screwed if they are relying on their REALTOR(R) having their back. How can a REALTOR(R) not know that stuff?

Gary, I mostly agree. There are some things in the CoE however that would not be common sense. Especially in Article 16. Some of the ethical business practices are actually very aggressive. I like that.

Steve, I think you have to have a pretty strong case to make it to the grievance committee. But these committees are made up of volunteers so yo just never know. And their decisions are not always right. I've never been in front of a grievance committee.

Ken, I think you are right that filing a greivance can be abig waste of time. That's why Brokers are reluctant to do so. It's best to handle these things between brokers if at all possible.

Royal, The right thing always work.

TLW, Are you holding back?

Bryant~I agree, know the COE or keep quiet. Just because someone doesn't handle their business the same way that you do doesn't mean they are uneithical.

I am not one to ever accuse someone of being unethical as in a violation of the "code." I have felt many times some were less than honorable.

So the guy gets a featured post and because they didn't like the comments they deleted the post? Well that speaks volumes.

It's funny BB because at 1st glance it may look like some of the examples you cited could be construed as something that shouldn't be done but in every example there is always a possibiity of why it is no problem.

Bryant- None of those on your list are ethical violations. We get that from our mailers, the listing expires, we send a letter, the seller relists with the same agent, the agent gets mad that we sent the expired letter, well, maybe they should not have let their listing expire.

We take postdated listings and as long as the seller initialized the call, we have done nothing wrong.

Some people are whimpy and don't like aggressive marketing. That is business.

None on ethics, but I made a positive comment on a negative post and the person deleted the post with my comment and reposted the post! Then the person sent me the nastiest emails and not just one, but several and told me never to comment on their blog again! WOW, like children, temper trantrums and you got to see it their way or no way.

Hi Bryant - I think that some of the charges of someone being labeled 'unethical' come about because the other agent is intimidated or feels threatened for some reason, and that's how they react. It would certainly be most helpful if, BEFORE they start slandering another agent, they actually read the Code of Ethics to be certain of what they're speaking. Not one of the bullets you listed above is considered unethical. It's really too bad there are so many uninformed and/or misinformed agents floating around out there with little to no understanding of our own Code of Ethics.

Ann

I am with Lenn on this one. I saw that same post. I thought the buyer agent was simply following the "lawful instructions" of the buyer. I do have a difference of opinion with regard to NOT showing properties that don't and "adequate" co-broke fee. Many agents in my neck of the woods do not share and/or offer an "adquate" co-broke fee. It is my opinion, that I have a fiduciary duty to the buyer to show the property -- however, I will let the buyer know up front what is being offered -- in some situations, the agent will share more of the fee, in other instances, I can roll it into the transaction by way of a credit .. if not, then the buyer has the abilityt to pay the difference and still obtain the property.

Broker Bryant, I know a hand full of Realtors who have never actually looked at the Realtors' s Code of Ethics. These are the type of Realtors that easily charge. However, I myself have accused someones actions of being unethical, but not by the Realtors' book, just by societies rules.

Melina, I believe Lenn just made a mistake. The post she is referring to is here.

Joan, The lower co-broke thing is one of the biggest misunderstandings in the code. Fact is it's not even mentioned on the code. We do however have an ethical and legal(if working under a fiduciary) obligation to explain to our buyers how we work and how we get paid PRIOR to them agreeing to hire us. As long as the buyer understands that I have a minimum standard of compensation then I do NOT have to show them properties offering less UNLESS they make the decision to supplement my compensation if they decide to buy it. It's all about proper disclosure.

Mana, At least NAR now has a requirement that we take an Ethics class every 4 years. That should help some what. There really is no excuse to not be familiar with the CoE.

I was accused of being unethical (and threatened with a report) when I encouraged a bidding war on my new listing. Uh, yeah, that's my JOB. I found out later that the other agent was annoyed because he had played the nice guy with offers his seller (who was his buyer for my property) had received - that is - he REFUSED to generate a bidding war and told his seller it was unethical... then when I did it for the property she wrote on, he had some 'splaining to do.

Funny thing is - in a ethics class I attended soon after this episode, the instructor actually advised us to stop a bidding war in its tracks in order to "preserve our relationships with other agents in our market." YIKES!!!

BB, I think agents who don't know what they are doing or feel like they may "have been wronged" call it "unethical" because they don't know what else to call it. Maybe in addition to re-reading the CoE, they re read the dictionary as well.

Ann, It is scarey out there!!!! I hope all is well with you. I've been thinking about you.

Katerina, You are right that many times our peers do not like our aggressive busines spractices. And when they don't they srtar the "unethical chorus".

Bill, And that's point. Things aren't always what they seem.

LaShawn, Right on!!! When in doubt....do the research.

Gary, I think honor was a 70s thing:) Serioulsy though, it's also important we remember who we are working for. A perfect example is when a buyer's agent gets all pissed off because I didn't tell them I had offers on the property when they called for showing instructions. They find out when they submit their offer and I tell them it just went pending. Well I can't divulge multiple offers without my sellers permission.

Jennifer, Can you believe an ethics teacher would say that? I would have called him out on that right then and there. He is flat out wrong. So he is recommending we put our relationships with our peers ahead of of our customer/client duties? And we wonder why the consumer is so confused.

Audrey, I think it is also the job of Brokers to pound this stuff into their heads. It is so important. Supposedly our CoE is the only thing that separates REALTORS(R) from licensee. We need to get it right.

Integrity is what you do when NO ONE is watching. I think every agent who has been in business longer than ten minutes has had one or all of the above you wrote about happen to them. SO, is it only unethical if someone else does it? Sometimes we take ourselves a little too seriously. But I try to live by my Integrity saying here. I can sleep at night, don't mind seeing clients at the local grocery and have a high level of referral business. That's my barometer. Carry on Broker Bryant, I love your ability to tell it like it is. Sometimes we pontificate a bit much.

With 60+ Realtors that have their license underneath mine, I get ethics complaints all the time. In fact ever since the market turned sour, it seems like once a year I get a formal ethics complaint filed against one of my Realtors by somebody. I have a hearing next week against one of my Realtors. It is actually a transaction that happened when she worked under an old broker that closed down shop nearly a year ago. I plan on sitting in on the hearing to see what happens and of course stand up for my firm.

Unfortunately many Realtors take it very personally when they fail and would rather blame others then themselves.

The whole damn thing sounds very unethical to me. :~`)

Lets be realistic, you have a better chance of being chastised by Activerain than you do the Realtors Association. For all the ethics peached by the board, little are enforced. I'm not being callous, just realistic. You done wrong, I can prove it, see you in court.

Knowledge is power. It is all about communications ad setting up expecations well in advance. The more expectations set in advance, the less you will find ethical concerns.

Communicate the possibilies well in advance.....the good, the bad, the ugly.

It is concerning that you are getting this many comments about ethics. Look at your presentation with your buyers and sellers and see if you telling them the bad and the ugly. Most agents are afraid to do so. If the ugly pops up, well, the client knew the possbility existed.

Relationship problems are mostly about communications. I know that you will want to come back at me on this....but think about it for a week........

I agree, some folks call it "unethical" when in reality it may should be called "professional courtesy" Heck, I get talked about all the time because I try to be helpful to other agents, believe it or not, they think I have a hidden agenda and actually gripe about my giving them helpful tips...LOL great type A personalities we have in our business.

Thats why they print the code and teach it in con ed. Don't complain until after you read it.

The one that cracked me up recently was:

I wrote a blog about ethics and discussed following the golden rule. A member then accused my of preaching religion and left some anti-religious comments about a specific religion. He went further to claim I violated Federal Fair Housing by referencing the Golden Rule. I know this Principal Broker has never read the Code of Ethics, because the Golden Rule is specifically mentioned in it's Preamble.

I remember deciding that you were unethical when you took a post dated listing.

Ahh. The beauty of this place. Finding information that makes sense- not accepting information that just "is", because that's how people say it should be done.

BB - I had to chuckle at number one. I was a listing agent and received a larger check than the selling agent, so she made quite a fuss at the closing, sure made us look unprofessional.

Bryant,

I'm sort of curious what you would tell a buyer after refusing to show them a home with a co-broke that you weren't happy with. I feel like this is a bit borderline--just my opinion.

BB,

Maybe one of these days you will be able to add that you have been told that it's unethical for you to blog about ethics. :) I think that there are those people that won't be happy unless they can complain about something....and then maybe some do it out of jealousy!??

BB,

I just noticed that you have been knocked out the featured members box by a couple of "zero pointers" Now that's unethical, they could have at least picked a couple of 200 pointers that took the time to complete part of their profile! Not that I'm complaining or jealous! :)

I've only been called unethical once... and she was wrong. I've been called unfair for having nicer marketing a few times... Bummer.

With ethics or taxes, I like to see the code that supports the claim. It's very interesting sometimes what you learn when you actually go back to the original document and see what it actually says vs. what many people think it says. I also enjoy doing that with the Bible and the Constitution.

Broker Briant, these whiners need to get a grip! And range pricing unethical? Pul-eeze! I once had someone from a firm with the word "Integrity" in its name accuse me of being unethical because I had my assistant deliver a contract to her office on his way home.

LOL...I'm not happy...so you're unethical. That's the selfish version.

Tim, you are my kind of guy! LOL!

And that's what I keep talking about...a professional attitude means a lot to me....following our COE is the bulk of it....common sense, being respectful, responsible and watching how I might be affecting others follows...in no particular order.

NO - I have not been accused of being unethical - been accused of other things - but not that! Put up and back it up or shut up - no matter what it is or who it is - we are always talking about perspective. Just about anyone can "justify" their position on a matter - CoE or not! When we believe we have been wronged - we feel wronged - those feelings may actually have no basis in truth. When we can stand strong and stand behind our own behavior - we have nothing to be concerned about - no matter what others say about us. IF the other agent had been ALL THAT then they would not be ranting about what another agent did or did not do - would they?

Maybe, just maybe, this is why people perceive REALTORs as they do. We are too worried about what others (REALTORs) think instead of doing what's right for clients.

If I am doing the job my client hired me to do (help them buy or sell for the best price), why would it affect my relationships with other agents. Aren't they doing the same for their clients?

don't see any reason to read the CoE again... it's so much easier to be self righteours sometimes than be informed. Huh?

Bryant, you bet it makes sense. There isn't a single thing you listed there that I would not have personally done myself under the right circumstances. Sure, by a literal reading one may "guess" that it would be unethical and squawk like a chicken with its head cut off! Did you get that? I'm not sure I did either but I'm on your side. Everything you listed is understandable and based upon doing the right thing for your client. Good job you dirty rotten scoundrel ! :-) Later in the rain~DEB

in my life prior to real estate, I was trying to help someone fix a problem who was 150 miles away. I said that I would fix it if she could bring it to me. to which she responded that I take advantage of old people. I felt terrible but I don't take advantage of old people.

I was recently involved in a transaction where I believed the agent violated three or four of the Code of Ethics. I contacted the Board, got the paperwork, was ready to file a complaint then called the Board and asked about the procedure and it was so unwieldy I decided to let it go. There would have been several reviews, hearings, "he said, she said," who has got the time or energy for that? And who wants to be ensconced in such negativity? Not I.

I can't think of how the process "should be," because I know it is very serious to be accused of ethical violations. I would have liked to have just documented the issues and have the board do all of the follow-up and findings, but that is not how it is set up.

This agent is no doubt tormenting another poor unsuspecting agent, not to mention seller or buyer, even as I type.

I have to believe that karma will take care of it.

Bryant - I was going to comment on a post the other evening. I thought for certain that the CoE was violated. I read each article and standards of practice again, looking for what I knew for certain was there. The only thing I found...another reading of the complete Code of Ethics; no violation.

I am not sure if it is unethical for me to leave a comment here...Blogging Bertha might find out!

I have had people volunteer to help me file against agents who have blatantly violated the COE, but I won't do it. It's a waste of time in almost every case, and will get an agent labeled. The worst part about that is that the agents who could be turned in have learned that lesson - that they won't suffer for breaking COE themselves, and they can pick on agents by filing COE complaints against others. That's a sad comment on our accountability controls. Thankfully we have a good batch of professionals in our region, and very few bad apples.

AUG

2008

I agree with Ken and Dawn. What the point in actually filing a complaint.....NAR won't do anything anyway. And that is on legitimate ethics violations.

Your list has nothing wrong.

The COE is what Realtors are to live by. Some choose to be more aggressive, some less aggressive. I see no problem as long as the person's playing by the rules though I may not like it.

I have been accused of this as well. Sellers family accused me of "tricking" the seller to sell and "tricking" the seller to close 20 days earlier so I could pay my taxes. All of this is far from the truth. I think some folks are really just ignorant of the law. I've never accused an agent of unethical behavior. I've been blessed to deal with some outstanding folks. But I'm sure I'm not immune just lucky.

Bryant. Thanks for the link. I confess to being a defective detective.

One of these days we'll have to have a discussion about showing properties with a low co-broke. There appears to still be some ideas that we are indentured to a buyer to work for the pleasure and not for the commission.

My buyers know up front, before looking at one single house, what my minimum fee is going to be. My fee is charged to the buyer. The co-broke merely offsets that fee by whatever is offered. Do my buyers pay anything out of pocket? No. We work it through the transaction. Or, I may contact a listing agent and get an agreement to a higher co-broker before showing. That's my preferred procedure and I've never had a listing agent or builder refuse.

We work for commissions. We do not have to subsidize listing agents or sellers. My fees are not negotiable. The bottom line is, I bring good, qualified, ready to buy buyers to the table. Our transactions are managed, smooth and close on time.

For that, I am entitled to my brokerage fee. Not a hand-out.

If folks believe that it is unethical for a buyer's agent to set our fees, they are admitting that they don't know how to do it.

Diane, "I'm sort of curious what you would tell a buyer after refusing to show them a home with a co-broke that you weren't happy with"

I wouldn't be refusing to show them a property. What I would be doing is asking them if they wanted to see this listing since it is only offering x% knowing that if they purchase it they will need to make up the difference as per our Buyer Broker Agreement. It's their choice not mine. There are listings in my area right now that are offering a $1 co-broke. Do you really feel it is unethical to not show this property? And it is also not unethical for the listing broker to offer a $1 co-broke. The unethical part is when we as REALTORS(R) have not addressed this issue with our buyer/seller PRIOR to them hiring us.

Does this help?

OK folks. I have a very busy day today but have read each and every one of your comments. I amnot going to have time to respond to them but willcomeback and address any questions later today. Ya'll go sell some real estate now...ya hear?

Bryant, as a REALTOR and an attorney, I've lost track of the number of hours of ethics courses I've taken over the years to keep current with continuing education requirements for both licenses. Most of this stuff is common sense. Can't understand why so many muck it up...

HI Bryant, it seems that people perceive what is ethical based on a "wish list" instead of reality. This is a great post for those that do not take the time to understand that ethics and the articles are linked. For example speaking or publishing negatively about another Realtor...hum which article was that....they should look it up. Congrats on the feature Bryant, it was timely.

Sometimes accusers are the most guility!

I think people sometimes confuse our real estate code of ethics with their own personal code of ethics or moral code. Someone can feel that someone else is being unethical even if it doesn't specifically violate the code of ethics as it is written. Everyone has a different definition of what is right and wrong. So when they say that they feel someone else is unethical, perhaps it does not have anything to do with the code at all.

Bryant: I'm sorry to hear about the accusations against you. The bottom line is if you know in your heart that what you're doing is right then that's all that matters. We are in a greedy, envious, jealous business and that 's unfortunate. The one thing we can all do is rise above it! Take care.

Paul

The item on your list that caught my eye was:

I won't show a listing that has a less then adequate co-broke. AND...I'll tell my Buyer this.

Knowing BB - I was sure I would see an expansion on this later in the thread to include a Buyer Broker Agreement - and I wasn't disappointed!

Some of these issues are pretty commonly seen by our ethics panel, especially things having to do with commissions and business practices. The range pricing is not a problem - very common here. While it is confusing for some folks, it is certainly not unethical. I suspect there are many instances of violations (and based on the response above) that never get reported because the process take times and folks suspect nothing will be done. I can say, however, that our panel HAS taken action against agents who violate the COE, to the tune of monetary penalties, adn more.

Jeff

Bryant,

You are very correct when you state that accusing someone of being unethical is a very SERIOUS matter. There is an agent here in town that has done this so many times (she's the accuser) and so very few of us are tempted to do business with her for fear that she'll turn on US too. I just wish she would "think things" through before she accuses...

Bryant, the only one that gave me a twinge when reading the things you do was that you will not show a house that has a less than adequate co-broke - even if you tell your Buyer that. Your obligation as an agent is to work in your client's, not your own, best interests, and if the best house for them happens to be one that doesn't pay an "adequate" co-broke and you won't even show it to them so that they don't have the chance to get it, then you're failing in that fiduciary duty. Hopefully you mean you tell them this before they ever decide to start working with you, before they're "your" Buyer - which would mean ignore this entire comment!

It amazes me, how many agents have a hissy fit over that commission diferential. It always happens when they finally see the HUD-1, and upon finding out that the listing commission is higher than the selling side, they cry foul, or want a piece of it. They're only entitled to what's in the MLS. Period!

But I have to admit, I did think it was a violation of the Code, for agents to not show listings just because the commission was lower than what they wanted. After all, we are supposed to be working in the best interests of the clients, not our own best interests. And obviously, it's in the best interest of the client to show them all properties that meet their criteria, regardless of how much money it will put in our own pockets.

Hi Broker Bryant - Well, this is one of these great posts where the comments inform (and entertain!) as well as the post. I think you made a very good point. I am actually taking an ethics class for continuing ed and I am going to delve into it and ask a lot of questions.

My fave comment is from Lenn harley: "I don't show low co-brokes either unless my buyer agrees to pay the difference or asks the seller for funds to pay me. I'm engaged, not indentured." Bwahahahaha. Loved that line.

Timing is perfect. I have a fellow Realtor that continues to slander my name, saying viscious, misleading information about me, goes behind my back and attempts to solicit accounts that I've been working on for a good period of time and I'm not going to do anything about it. I called my brother, who is in real estate in GR, and told him what was said. He reminded me when I look at the whole picture, it will and can become overwhelming. He reminded me also that people of integrity will stand the test of time and it will prove itself.

So, BB, thank you for sharing to remind me that I'm not in the boat alone.

I recently had an issue with a broker/listing agent. In my opionion it was unethical how they handled the situation on behalf of their seller; however, when I came home and read the COE, to see which one I could file under, I couldn't find one...so I chalked it up to broker/listing agent not really knowing what they were doing. I chose NOT to post on it because of well.... you know it is out there even in members only.

If I take a listining on a holiday weekend (say with Labor Day weekend), I always post date it to the Tuesday after. That way admin staff are in to post it on MLS.

A co-broke of 50/50 split is not a law. Period.

Good points!!

Sometimes people do jump the gun, but as with one of my recent posts, sometimes there are legitimate violations...

For example, would you consider it a violation of the CoE if you set up a showing with a listing agent, and the buyer arrived EARLY (note that the buyer agent was not late) and the listing agent took them in and showed them the house, and the whole time indicated to them that they need not work with the buyer agent. They said they had a contract with the buyer agent. The agent said that they could easily break it and she would serve them much better if they wanted to put an offer in. Then the buyer agent shows up, on time, and is confronted by the listing agent, who claims that the buyer agent is so young and experienced that she should just let the listing agent do the job (the buyer agent is 50, and has been in the business for 15 years)

Then the listing agent tells the buyer that the buyer agent is unethical because she has the MLS / IDX on her website (and that is how the buyer found our company, but our display of listings complies completely with MLS rules) and that we should not be showing HER listings on OUR site. In fact, all of this was said in front of the buyes, and the buyers agent.

Would you consider that a breach of the CoE, say 3 counts or so?

I would...

And I would consider it contract interference.

And I would highly recommend to that agent (the buyer agent) that she allow me to file the complaints...

But then, the accusation that we were unethical because we had a legitimate IDX feed, THAT is ludicrous, and reflects more on the ignorance of the listing agent than it does on us.

What say you BB?

Great points. It's easy to feel that something is unethical. It's quite another when you read the Code and notice you what was done wasn't unethical it was someone being creative, smart or something unmentionalbe, but yet not unethical. I think I've thought people were unethical when it was that I felt cheated or taken advantage of. The good thing is, I've learned a valuable lesson from each experience. I'm always better off knowing who and what I'm dealing with and I always hope to learn my lessons early in the relationship.

I wish this rule would apply when I am called an a$$h**e.

90% of all Realtors engage in Unethical Practices. Real estate laws say... Legal is as Legal Does... ANYTHING DONE OUTSIDE THE LEGAL GUIDELINE IS CONSIDERED UNETHICAL.

How many Agents do you know that hire a "handyman" to handle most all repairs and fix-up services for their properties? Most states have specific laws laws requiring the hiring of licensed contractors to perform construction or repair work on properties over $500.00, yet almost all Realtors today hire "unlicensed" handymen to repair and remodel properties for their listing and selling clients....more than a bit unethical. Hire the same unlicensed "handyman" more than once in a given year, and now you're an employer.

Consider the liability of the Realtor who hires a "handyman" that is injured on the job. Does your state require Workers Compensation Insurance? Skirting this issue alone as an "employer" is very unethical, not to mention against the law...You could lose your license over either of these issues.

Would you even think for one moment about closing a transaction with an unlicensed real estate agent? ABSOLUTELY NOT! The first thing you check when a offer comes your way...is the license number of the submitting agent. Surely don't want to do business with an unlicensed agent...Why? Because the probability of them not knowing what they're doing is high, not to mention illegal and unethical. So why then, continue the highly unethical and illegal practice of hiring unlicensed handymen to do the work of a licensed contractor?

You want to sleep well, knowing legal ramifications years down the road don't haunt your thoughts and jeopardize your professional career and financial well being. The State of California as well as many other states prosecute and conduct sting operations that often include undisclosed information or illegal contracting -years after the events took place. As the "hiring Agent", you could be liable for the work you sent your "handyman" to perform! Is it worth the risk for a few extra bucks in your pocket? Is it worth your integrity?

Realtors face one of the most difficult risk exposures to their future financial well being. "...contractors are a vital link in the safety chain and it is critical to forge a partnership with those licensed and bonded contractors and sub-contractors who are engaged to perform work at your clients property."

Authorities often assess higher civil penalties against the licensed Realtor, directly in violation. That can also include the employing Broker as well! Realtors are held to a higher level of culpability based on a better understanding of regulatory responsibilities.

As a licensed Real Estate agent, you have a fiduciary as well as ethical responsibility for all parts of the transaction when you conduct business. The licensed contractor you hire to perform repairs has, just like you, a fiduciary responsibility to perform the work to legal standards and practices. He also must adhere to an ethical standard, and like you, has much to lose if that standard is breached in any way. Please, hire only licensed contractors.

"Keep it ethical; Conduct business with people duly licensed to perform all the work in every transaction you are a party to."

I'm a native born agent, NEVER had a problem with any of this crap but maybe that is why I love to do consulting.

If I do traditional commissions, I put the higher portion on the BA side. Why? Because it works.

I don't know why we even have to take Mandatory ethics classes, because those that ARE ethical SLEEP thru the danged class, those of us who are serious, ethical, honest and abide by the COE don't need it, it is a waste of time imho.

My .02 on this whole matter is that BB is better at what he does than his competition, which causes their panties to get all in a wad ;-) Hey, that is called competition, either educate yourself, get better and/or do real estate consulting and this would NOT be a problem.

I've sold real estate for almost 30 yrs, I've never screwed anyone...I've had buyers try to go around their BA's to vget a better deal thinking I'd cut my fees, lol.....NOPE! I may do one deal with YOU Mr. buyer, but my rep in the real estate community means more to me than a one shot deal with YOU (and this was his GOOD FRIEND!).

I AM HONEST, ethical, can quote you the COE in my sleep, ethics training won't help those who are unethical, jealous or uneducated.

Live moves on! BB and TLW have a tremendous reputation in the real estate community and I would be proud to do a deal with them any day of the week. If someone want's to 'whine' that they know more about what they are doing, they should go buy some cheese and crackers to go with their "wine"... or get out of this business and get a job at Wal-Mart.

My .02 I'm done with those who blame their problems on those who have experience, are ethical, great negotiators and play well with others. Pick up your tonka toys and go play in another sand box!

There is a lot of confusion about what is ethical and what is not, because the laws of each state differ so drastically. In my state (Minnesota) if you took a post dated listing on a property that was listed by another broker, you would be in violation of state law. Therefore, you would not be treating all parties honestly, (since you violated state law) and might be found by a reasonable panel to be in violation of article one.

State law trumps the code of ethics, so what you do in Florida ethically, you may not do in some other states, by law or by the code of ethics.

Therefore all agents should consult with their broker or state licensing laws before deciding willy nilly if anything is ethical or not.

The ethics code is sometimes hard to figure out. I quit trying to say anything.

I agree with you. I kinda like applying the Golden Rule...most of the time that seems to work except when you get caught speeding!

AUG

2008

In this Market - you willl see ALL TYPES! I believe it will get crazier as the months progress....

Hey when is the next local AR Gathering anyway??? hummmm (wait I should be asking TLW) LOL

Katrina in Tampa

What a great post! I agree, if you are going to call someone unethical look it up. If the shoe fits great, if not maybe just maybe you owe them an apology!

Chuck, You brought up a good point. Laws do vary from State to State. And we should certianly check the law first. I'm curious as to why your State outlawed post dated listings AND is that law something you can point me to? I'm struggling with how that can be something that would be dictated by law.

OK everyone, once again I find myself with very limited time. I sure could use a Poinciana buyers agent. Any takers? I am overflowing with business.

I'll be back.

Jerry, "90% of all Realtors engage in Unethical Practices." That's a pretty broad statement. Do you have any data to back it up? I don't believe it for one minute. Almost all of the REALTORS(R) I know don't get involved in repair issues at all. Repairs are between the buyer and the seller. Now we may recommend the service people that are needed but we certainly don't get kick backs for doing so. Show me this stat from a reliable source because if indeed it is true then we have a problem.

Makes big sense. Ive been accused of stealing a expired listing because a seller contacted me because of my on line blogs!

Regarding your question, while I cannot speak to the motivation of the legislature when they wrote the law, it has existed for years and has been enforced. It is Minnesota Statutes 82.41 subdivision 10

While I will reproduce the exact language below, the gist is that an agent may, if contacted by a seller who is currently under contract, discuss the terms and conditions of a future exclusive right to sell listing agreement, but may not actually enter into an agreement until after the original listing has been canceled or expired. To actually enter into an agreement would be interference in Minnesota.

This has come up several times on hearing panels, and while I am no attorney, I am certain that signing a listing contract during the term of another brokers contract is illegal in this state, and I am also aware that it is legal to do so in other states, so I am not pointing fingers at anyone.

For your convenience, I have reproduced the language below. Source: https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=82.41

"Subd. 10. Exclusive agreements. (a) Except as provided in paragraph (c), a licensee shall not
negotiate the sale, exchange, lease, or listing of any real property directly with the owner or lessor
knowing that the owner or lessor has executed a written contract granting exclusive representation
or assistance in connection with the property to another real estate broker, buyer, or lessee, nor
shall a licensee negotiate the purchase, lease, or exchange of real property knowing that the buyer
or lessee has executed a written contract granting exclusive representation or assistance for the
purchase, lease, or exchange of the real property with another real estate broker.
(b) Licensees shall not induce any party to a contract of sale, purchase, lease, or option, or to
an exclusive listing agreement or buyer's agreement, or facilitator services agreement, to breach
the contract, option, or agreement.
(c) A licensee may discuss the terms upon which a listing or buyer representation contract or
a contract for facilitator services may be entered into after expiration of any existing exclusive
contract when the inquiry or discussion is initiated by the owner, lessor, buyer, or lessee. The
licensee must inquire of the owner, lessor, buyer, or lessee whether such an exclusive contract
exists."

I apologize. Clearly the above post was mislabled. I am the author of the post, and I was directing it to a question Bryant, the father of this thread. Sorry...

Thanks for writing about business ethics! I hope more people will change their attitude and behavior after your post and other people's comments.

When people disagree they are quick to say that you are unethical. As long as you no your boundaries keep doing what you do. You can't make everyone happy.

Bryant,

Thanks for the post. Just got my reminder to satisfy NAR's ethics requirements before year end. Helps for those of us in the business to be somewhat familiar, you would think. Very timely.

AUG

2008

What an interesting way of looking at it..........i'm thinking i like it! i

AUG

2008

Hi Chuck, Thanks for posting that law. That's very similar to Florida law. After reading it though I don't see where it would prohibit me from taking a post dated listing. I wouldn't be interfering with an existing contract. I'd just be doing paperwork today for a contract that would do into affect later.

Thanks everyone for stopping by. I have been a very bad blog host the last couple of weeks. Please know that I appreciate each and everyone of you and have read all of your comments. Thanks!!!

Hi Bryant,

Well, your welcome. You are just going to have to trust me on it. Although I am not an attorney, and I am guessing that you are not either, Minnesota law does prohibit taking a post dated listing. specifically, it prohibits interference with an existing listing. It IS permissable to take a listing, dating it on the date that it is signed, and making it effective later, unless it is currently listed. That is why the law states that an agent and principal may discuss the terms and conditions of a future listing (one that is signed after the expiration or cancellation of a current listing)

I am somewhat surprised by the willingness of professionals to even SUGGEST a post dated listing. Isn't suggesting that a date is accurate when in fact it is in the future obviously fraudulent? It would be more appropriate to call it a currently dated listing with a future effective date.

Anyhow, as a member of the state professional standards committee and a certified NAR quadrennial code of ethics instructor, I maintain that local law trumps the code of ethics. This was the purpose of my original post, and I am sticking with it.

We could discuss whether I am reading the law correctly or not or compare it to other states, (and reasonable people might disagree) but I think it would be wise for anyone who is thinking of licensure in Minnesota to just take my word for it until they received an attorney's opinion to the contrary.

Best of Luck!

Well BB, didn't YOU just open up a can of worms?

;-) Paula Bean
Orlando, FL

Well...I don't think I opened up a can of worms. You would need to read the entire thread. My comment in the last post is limited to mean an intentional mis-date of the contract, which I don't think anyone actually suggested. I was pointing it out to illustrate the difference between and effective date and a contract date, and how that corresponds to the difference between the laws in my state and those of another.

There was no intention of suggesting that anyone in particular did anything incorrect.

Chuck, Maybe my terminolgy is incorrect. I am referring to signing and dating a contract today for a listing that would go into affect at a later date. I certainly agree that local law trumps the CoE. The CoE states in SoP 16-4 ...........the REALTOR^® may contact the owner to secure such information and may discuss the terms upon which the REALTOR^® might take a future listing or, alternatively, may take a listing to become effective upon expiration of any existing exclusive listing. (Amended 1/94)

I call that taking a post dated listing. The contract is NOT post dated. The listing period is post dated. In Florida it's perfectly legal and according to the NAR CoE it's also perfectly ethical.

Paula, These types of conversation are how we learn. No worms here :)

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