They are the ones that were not satisfied to be corporate hacks, allowing some huge company to dictate where and how they live their lives. They refused to carry a lunch bucket and lay cable for the phone company for 30 years.

Instead, they went after that other American Dream. The one about risking your talent, your money, and your time to OWN YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

This dream is at the very heart of our great nation, and defines why our economy is the greatest one on the planet.

Yet we have kicked business owners to the curb.  We have wrongly painted them with the same brush as those that bought houses they couldn't really afford... with stated income loans.

Instead of turning down their mortgage applications, we should be celebrating those that have invested in our economy, creating jobs, innovative products and services, and wealth.

They are the REASON that stated income loans came into being in the first place.

Take for example the house painter, working for a painting contractor. He claimed an income of $10,000 per month to buy his $500,000 house with a 100% adjustable rate mortgage.

He got a W2 statement, he just wasn't required to use it to qualify. Nope, didn't need to back then. Chances are, he is now a foreclosure statistic, but will go on to buy a cheaper house in the near future. Why? Because ironically, thanks to his foreclosure, houses ARE NOW CHEAP ENOUGH that he CAN qualify FULLY DOCUMENTING his income. 

How could the lending world NOT have sympathy for the house painter? Isn't the mortgage world carrying around a media inspired "guilt complex" for putting him in that 100% stated income, adjustable loan in the first place?

Oh, yeah, he'll get another house, on the sympathy factor alone.

But what about his boss, the painting contractor? He is the one who built a small company that gave jobs to 25 people. He is the one who bought painting supplies from the local paint store. He bought his trucks from the local car dealership. He paid payroll taxes and health insurance for his employees. Who will have sympathy for him?

As it turns out, no one.

Although he has never paid anyone late in his life, his credit score is low because he uses his credit cards for his business. He is legally able to write off his vehicles, and other business expenses from his income, and does so.

He continues to be successful since recession or not, houses continue to need painting. Because he has managed his finances and his business well for the last 15 years, he would like to buy a house.

But he can't.

You see, not only is it often the case that banks hold self employed borrowers to a higher standard (example: 700 score required for self employed vs 650 for employees), they no longer offer the STATED INCOME loan that took into account that much of his income was "written off" as a business expense.

What had been an easy process (to obtain mortgage financing) has become a nightmare. He must now show complicated, private business statements and tax returns to underwriters who have no idea how to interpret them.

In the past the lending world accepted this: This guy has been successfully managing his finances and his business for 15 years. He has good credit. The chances that he will NOT pay this mortgage are just about nil. And so stated income loans with their ease of qualification, and requirement of excellent credit, came into being to fill this niche.

And because it was assumed that his real income had been "adjusted" for tax purposes.

But somewhere along the line, we forgot about this guy. He can't buy a house because according to the new world of fully documented income, he just

  • DOESN'T MAKE ENOUGH MONEY
  • DOESN'T HAVE A GOOD ENOUGH CREDIT SCORE
  • "GOSH, I DON'T UNDERSTAND THESE TAX RETURNS, LET'S JUST TURN THIS DOWN".

We should celebrate the guy who successfully OWNS HIS OWN BUSINESS. He is helping an economy that is badly ailing. He is providing jobs. Why did we kick him to the curb?

And yet we paint him with the same brush as those that ABUSED the concept of stated income to buy a house they could never afford. We feel sorry for the painter, but not for the painting company owner.

It is time to paint a new picture with that brush.

Because there is something very wrong with this picture.

 

 

Written by Janet Guilbault, Mortgage Lending Expert Based Out of the San Francisco Bay Area

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
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45 Comments on How We Kicked Self Employed Borrowers to the Curb Along With Stated Income Loans

SEP
11
2008
360,150 Points 23 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Janet that is such a sad but true tribute to the small business owner - I was moved by your words of compassion and understanding.

11:29am • #1
Outside Blog

I've got to agree with you on this one.  Those loans were abused and used by the wrong kind of borrowers BUT there are borrowers that can responsibly benefit from this type of loan.  Let's hope loan return to a more normal existence soon.

11:31am • #2
131,925 Points 10 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I have little hope of them returning to NC... and it's a shame.  We are called the "half back nation" because so many people leave the northeast, go to Florida (don't like it) and end up in NC - about half way between the two.  We used No Doc Loans for folks with 30% down and good scores to help those folks get into houses.  We can't anymore, they are literally against the LAW in NC.  The NC Commissioner of Banks just hired THE Self Help Guru - to work at the Commissioners office.  All of the attention seems to be on "fair" lending... but I don't think this is fair!

11:39am • #3
1 Featured Post

Sad and true.  The people who made America strong are the ones getting the short end of the stick. ~ Evelyn

11:41am • #4
144,826 Points 89 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Liz: It is sad and it is wrong. I can have compassion for 2 reasons: because I have been self employed for 25 years (wour family owns an auto leasing company), and because almost on a daily basis, I must tell some poor business owner that he cannot refinance his house, or buy another one. It kills me every time, because his credit is good, but his adjusted income will not stretch to qualify him.

There are so many self employed people caught in this trap, but we never discuss them...why not?

11:53am • #5
144,826 Points 89 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Hope: I would like to see the loans come back with very strict qualifications and for the self employed ONLY.

We took a wrong turn when we allowed W2 wage earners to have stated income loans.

11:54am • #6
144,826 Points 89 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Eleanor: I think stated income loans are against the law in Nevada as well. But those laws are nothing more than a knee jerk reaction to the foreclosure crisis. Solid business owners who used stated income loans were not stupid enough to buy way over their heads...they are business people who must balance books every month!

I say, make the criteria really tough...maybe in business for 5 years instead of 2, make the credit criteria reasonable, and let them state the income.

11:58am • #7
144,826 Points 89 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Evelyn: Business owners deserve our respect and a much better situation than we have given them. They are also being hurt by the fact that they must often jump through yet another hoop: they want the more expensive homes, placing them in a jumbo loan.

12:01pm • #8
114,236 Points 1 Featured Post Outside Blog

Janet:  And what an effect this has had on our industry.  Many agents and brokers depend on real estate investing as our income stabilizer...  That option has all but gone away.  I can still help all my investors to increase and expand their holdings (somewhat), but my opportunity to invest or even own my own home as a small business person is all but gone.  *sigh*

12:38pm • #9
343,379 Points Outside Blog

This is sad. While there were many who abused the stated income system, there are many hard working people who are self employed and who are not abusing it and should be given a chance at home ownership.

12:41pm • #10
2 Featured Posts

So true! What can be done to not paint everyone with the same brush?

12:43pm • #11
2 Featured Posts

You got it! Another strike against being self employed. Stated income loans were ONLY for self employed borrowers not to long ago. What happen to rationalize a 'wage earner' applicant using 'stated' income to qualify boggled my mind then, and still does. Even the CRA loans allowed a certain portion of 'stated' income????? The product was destined to go bad as soon as greedy investors who didn't understand mortgage lending started to tweak the product. To fix it we whip out THE BRUSH, and actually paint a few homeowners into a corner (of which I am one). Very difficult situation for anyone who is self employed and took advantage of a program which no longer exists.

I wonder how many of those 'Thousand Points of Light' are still brightly burning. Not many I'll bet.

1:02pm • #12
129,378 Points 5 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Janet, the stated income loan was so often abused it was a major problem. I always used a no-ratio, they never caused me or my clients to lie. I still like those with a decent downpayment. People don't walk from house they have a stake in.

1:36pm • #13

They should have loans strictly for self employed who qualify - what if a realtor (self employeed) needs to get a loan Too!!!!

1:37pm • #14

another great post janet.

the stated income abuse even got to the point of stated fixed income!  there are home owners out there that obtained 100% financing, with a neg-am 1st mortgage, that only receive SSI or pension...unbelievable.

i am not sure what the best answer is, but i do agree that stated for self-employed should be allowed...within reason.

1:37pm • #15
Hit Router

Unfortunately, just another case of human nature repeating itself in the boom-and-bust cycle:  when times are good, controls go out the window.  When times get challenging, the pendulum swings completely in the other direction.  Just look at the last 20 years, and you'll see examples of this, from oil to tech stocks to real estate and back to oil.  Amazing.  

1:39pm • #16
1 Featured Post

Now that Fannie and Freddie has joined the federal governments lending arm with FHA and VA, it  only makes sense that Stated Income Loans would go away.  Why would the federal government want to insure a mortgage for a borrower who does not pay taxes.  Should make sense to most of us since many of us are self employed. 

1:40pm • #17
832,166 Points 213 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

Sounds like some real estate agents and brokers I know.

2:45pm • #18

Janet....when do you think the painting party will begin?

3:28pm • #19
108,954 Points 8 Featured Posts

This frustrates me as well. Entrepreneurship is the backbone of this country, yet we penalize those with the guts to still go after it by making the american dream that much more difficult to obtain. And that we must rely on "underwriters who have no idea how to interpret them" is just downright scary.

Lending is like a giant pinball game and I think we're going to see the ball flicked in many crazy directions and bounced back before this gets starightened out.

Congrats on the feature Janet!!

3:38pm • #20
5 Featured Posts

Another great post as always!  My husband and I have been self employed for many years now and the last time we moved (2002), I swear we could have qualified easier if we were on welfare!  We didn't move while the loans were easy to get, and now I think we will be back to the same old thing.  Oh well.....

4:16pm • #21
3 Featured Posts

CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP BRAVO from your keyboard to the investors ears.  So typical in this industry they went over board with lossing up things and then knee jerk reaction to closing the loop hole.  Funny a little common sense would have gone a long way

4:40pm • #22

What ever happened to actually underwriting the self employed borrower?  In the last few years, even when they WANTED TO provide tax returns, P&L etc., no one wanted to take the time to work through the process.  "Oh, you can just go Stated Income" and if I'm not mistaken - charge a quarter point higher rate because of the "risk". Can we even FIND an underwriter who knows HOW to underwrite these loans.

Same thing with "automated underwriting".  You plug some numbers into a machine and either the person gets a loan at the good rate or not.  Where has the interpretation of the numbers and the HUMAN factor gone? 

 

I agree, the self employeed should be celebrated and rewarded, not made to suffer because of the actions of those who cheat the system.

5:28pm • #23
144,826 Points 89 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Toni: This is why I made the remark in this post that underwriters often have NO CLUE. You know you have a problem when the mortgage broker is telling the underwriter how to read a tax return.

And why does the automated system say yes to a 97% FHA loan for someone who is so obviously a higher risk and no to someone who  self employed with more money down and a higher score.

Why whould we always FAVOR first time homebuyers at the expense of solid self employed business people. I don't get it.

 

6:02pm • #24
144,826 Points 89 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Joe: If some bank wants to make alot of money and have a very secure portfolio, they could open up stated loans to highly qualified business owners who have been locked out.

I don't think anyone understands how many people got trapped in this. Those of us in this business included.

6:07pm • #25

Janet, another beautiful post and rings soooo true!  It amazes me how every post you do is absolute quality and worthy of the Feature star!  Truely a talented writer!  Where do you get your pics?

6:24pm • #26
144,826 Points 89 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Jennifer: I confess, sometimes getting someone approved is like playing pinball. But nothing in the world makes me more frustrated than perfectly good borrowers who have slid beneathe that cracks in a system that seems to only care about first time homebuyers.

It is wrong.

6:40pm • #27
144,826 Points 89 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Roxanne: What a great comment! Painting party begins when banks bring back the stated income loans for highly qualified self employed business people.

Lenn: I would speculate that many people in our industry are among those who are trapped in the stated income trap.

6:43pm • #28
144,826 Points 89 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Fred: A stated income loan should require a downpayment, I agree with this. I also agree that no loan should cause a borrower to lie about his income. Maybe just calling it stated is one of the problems.

6:44pm • #29
144,826 Points 89 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Veena: I agree with your statement. But at some point someone needs to wake up and figure out that the door needs to be opened again for business owners. They have always had a different way of calculating their income. This should not make them pond scum in the eyes of a lender.

6:47pm • #30
144,826 Points 89 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Kevin: I know. I think back to the days when banks didn't even WANT us to submit full doc loans. We were encouraged to send them in as stated and they paid us more to do it that way.

It was out of hand, I admit that. But we should all remember why there were stated income loans in the first place. It was NOT to make things easier or faster for the mortgage industry!

6:50pm • #31
438,668 Points 10 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Too many people took advantage of the stated loans when they truly could not afford the payments.  How can we determine who can truly afford the house.

7:38pm • #32
144,826 Points 89 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Russ: By restricting stated loans to self employed borrowers with good credit and big down payments.

7:41pm • #33

I couldn't agree with you more.  It's ironic to me that the very people that make things happen , are able to accept risk are being shut out of the market.  I can't believe that these are the people who are responsible for the mess the real estate industry is in. 

8:27pm • #34
1 Featured Post Localism Sponsor

Haha... I can't even qualify for a 120k loan! I got a 720+ score and good income, but after taking away the 'expenses' from depreciation on investments and other expenses, not much shows up. We sold our house and were supposed to be temporarily in a rental... we are stuck for now.

8:53pm • #35

This will fix itself... do not dispair.....

 

The backbone of America, the entrepreneur, is now expecting the feds to fix the problem..... that means no more stated for self employed people..... and tons of documentation.

True entrepreneurs could be lending money not borrowing right now anyway..... and, if you've ever been redlined due to your occupation, and you tried to put your income down on a loan app stated, they won't believe you anyway..... without history.  That is where we are right now, but I do believe that it will fix and we will be able to get great people great loans again soon, even ourselves... We are complaining while we are still in the shake out stage... hang in guys!!  Remember the old saying... it's better to borrow when you don't need it..... anyone who is in this business and wanted to invest needed to have the money together way before now for the bargains.....

Matt, I got turned down for $25,000, LOL...

Jennifer Lamm
10:14pm • #36
144,826 Points 89 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Jennifer: The reason I think it will fix itself is because there is a great window of opportunity that is being overlooked by the lending world. We loan to low scores and high LTV before we loan to self employed with great scores.

It wouldn't be THAT hard to bring back some of the extinct programs with severe restrictions....how about equitylines for those with lots of equity and good credit? And how about loans for self employed borrowers with excellent credit?

Shouldn't the DTI be a higher number for these people? Is that not a way around the old stated loan?

Someone eventually WILL think outside the box.

 

11:33pm • #37
144,826 Points 89 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Matt: LOTS of people are stuck like you. We could give a huge boost to the real estate business and the economy if we could figure out how to unstick the situation.

Joe: I do not know the statistics, maybe someone else does. But I don't think the business owners of the world that took out stated income loans are the ones that walked away from their houses.

11:37pm • #38

HHHHMMM, this whole post is depressing to a small business owner like me - hopefully someone will have this figured out by the time I go looking for another home.

Vince - DUCTZ

11:43pm • #39
SEP
12
2008

So true, and scary!  My husband is self employed and so am I (just like every other Realtor out there!) We always had to jump through hoops to get a mortgage.

8:48am • #41
144,826 Points 89 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Joanna: My husband and I are self employed also. We used to have a miserable time doing a refi and cheered the day that stated income made it easy. Now the hoop is so high you can't even jump through it.

Castellum: Yes, depressing and maddening if you do mortgages. All my good clients are trapped.

10:54am • #42

It's hard for every borrower to get a loan these days, not just the self employed..... the rules are tight across the board.....

Hopefully you will be able to help your clients again soon.

 

Jennifer

Jennifer Lamm
1:51pm • #43
SEP
13
2008
209,959 Points 12 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

I dont' want to bring politics into this and i won't but let's put it this way. Nobody likes the rich and everyone wants to bring the successfull business man down. Why? because it's easy to do. The media certainly will help. But let's look at this another way:

 

THE RICH

1. you get an education (pay for it)

2. you get a good job (make money from it to pay of school dues)

3. you get taxed an amount equal to more than half of that

4. have to buy a house the legal way, you know like pay market price

5. have to buy all their own food using their "living wage"

6. have tons of business expenses "some" of which can be written off.

7. hardly qualify for anything because they are too "rich"

 

THE POOR

1. no education (can't afford it)

2. dont' get a job (welfare takes care of that )

3. don't get taxed (make too little)

4. get section 8 housing (300/month)

5. get food stamps 

6. don't have any real expenses 

7. qualify for everything because they are "poor enough"

 

That's the American Dream?

 

7:55am • #44
JAN
12

Everything you are saying is so true. I am not in real estate. I am a would be self-employed buyer. My husband and I have ran our business for 16  years. We are a true American success story. We started our business in the bedroom of a mobile home and we have been wildly successful. Our credit score is in the 800 range. I have always wanted to buy a turn of the century house but because of the change that took place just a few months ago I am out of luck. I am so depressed about this because I now really have no hope of making my dream come true. It is not the money, we could easily make the payment. I have never been behind on any payments. Never filed for bankruptcy. I have 40 acres paid free and clear. None of this matters. This is truly not fair to America's small business men and women. My dad always taught me from  childhood up that if you paid your bills your credit would be good and you could get what you wanted if you needed or wanted it. So much for that.

M. Kelly
8:28pm • #45

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Janet Guilbault California Mortgage Banker/Broker

Walnut Creek, CA

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Address: 3201 Danville Blvd, Suite 195, Alamo, CA, 94507

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