Home : Blogs : Ralph Nudi : The Kenosha Korner

How to handle FAKE leads (and the people that sent them)

Perhaps the people doing MARKET RESEARCH by sending fake leads to real estate agents should be taken out to the wood shed... or should they?

Randy Keberlein's BLOG yesterday generated quite an exchange between several agents that thought he was wasing time by doing such research, and pitched quite a fit. The only problem is... I am the ONLY active rain agents that (unknowingly) received one of these fake leads.

My lead was captured by my assistant and put in to TOP PRODUCER, where Randy's son (the 19 year old Vegan cleverly disguised as a potential customer) received numerous "bogus" responses from me. I say they were "bogus" responses, because I didn't personally send these responses, although my marketing system personalizes these emails and sends them out as if I had.

The fact is, through my STEALTH SITE, I generate many leads daily, and I expect many of them not to pan out or be legitimate, but I put them in my system and incubate them just the same.

Then... somethng MAGIC happens. Some (not all, not even most) of those leads begin to dialouge back and forth with me about their needs, REAL NEEDS than eventually become listings, buyer agency agreements, and YES even closed transactions.

It's important that we all do our job daily. This Active Rain stuff may be fun, and even addicting (I am typing away at midnight), but it's worthless if you don't CONSTANTLY 1. MARKET 2. PROSPECT and 3. FOLLOW UP!

It's all pretty simple. I use AR as a tool to help with the MARKETING and PROSPECTING. One of my new posts is featured as a link in an EMAIL CAMPAIGN to buyers. I offer my buyers something of value if they READ my post and comment on it. This helps me to EDUCATE my clients, hence making them better informed, lower maintenance and lower liability clients. (It also boosts my points!)

Those of you that attacked Randy's post have no clue as to the spirit in which it was intended, to be an educational tool. Perhaps it is you who is the TOOL!

Posted by Ralph Nudi on 04/03/2007 12:03 AM

Comments (73)

fake leads, education, marketing strategies

Post is included in group: North Carolina Real Estate
Post is included in group: Active Rain Newbies
Post is included in group: Realtors®
Post is included in group: Blogging Etiquette 101
Post is included in group: More Referrals: Strategies & Tips on Getting More Referrals
Post is included in group: ECO-All-Stars~ GREEN Resources, Trends & Friends
Post is included in group: Mortgages
Post is included in group: Keller Williams 'Rainers
Post is included in group: Gadgets, Tools, & Extras
Post is included in group: Stage It Forward...
Post is included in group: Century 21 Network
Post is included in group: ETHICS and the REALTOR
Post is included in group: Blogging & SEO
Post is included in group: Windy City Real Estate
Post is included in group: Tech Corner
Post is included in group: Investors
Post is included in group: The Art Of Marketing You
Post is included in group: Running a Brokerage
Post is included in group: Rainmaking - Internet Marketing Strategies
Post is included in group: All About Mortgages/Mortgage Networking
Post is included in group: Realtors Needing the services of the Lending Powers
Post is included in group: New Jersey & Pennsylvania -- Realtors/Loan Officers/Title Clerks/Real Estate Lawyers
Post is included in group: RE/MAX Active Rain Bloggers
Post is included in group: The Lounge at Active Rain
Post is included in group: Online Marketing Help Center
Post is included in group: Everything California
Post is included in group: Internet Lead Generation-How Best To Capture Your Audience
Post is included in group: Technology
Post is included in group: Agent Mom
Post is included in group: 1st Time Buyers
Post is included in group: Out Of The Box!
Post is included in group: Great Shots!
Post is included in group: New England Professionals
Post is included in group: Stagers Open Forum
Post is included in group: REO
Post is included in group: Weichert Realtors
Post is included in group: Real Estate Rookie
Post is included in group: Home Staging
Post is included in group: OFF TOPIC Goofing Off Club
Post is included in group: Localism Beta
Post is included in group: Services for Real Estate Professionals
Post is included in group: Staging Secrets
Post is included in group: Agents who want REFERRALS!
Post is included in group: Fraiche Aire
Post is included in group: Rookies Turning Pro
Post is included in group: Real Estate Technology
Post is included in group: Kentucky Professionals
Post is included in group: Localism Brainstorming
Post is included in group: Selling Soulfully
Post is included in group: Weichert Affiliates Illinois and Wisconsin
Post is included in group: Almost Anything Goes

73 Comments on How to handle FAKE leads (and the people that sent them)

APR

2007

Very interesting post Ralph. I will have to head on over and check out Randy's blog. I missed it. I think you are right on the money about marketing, prospecting and follow-up.

On another note, I think you should seriously consider joining a few more groups to have a more well-rounded active rain experience. ;-)

Interesting Post. The benefit of an automated or semi-automated system is that it allows a person the oportunity to incuabate a lot of leads. Yes some are going to be bogus and some that you thought were hot to buy will not pan out. But isn't that just the nature of the beast?

Ralph, thanks for your opinion about Randy's blog. Yes I too have a "stealth site" and do as you as you. I guess the point is you are entitled to your opinion as am I. I think that is what Active Rain is about and I think it is great. Insulting me is not the same as disagreeing with me. Just my opinion a disagreement is great - insults probably not in the spirit of the site.

Sending out fake emails and wasteing an agent's time is what was brought up in the comments. I don't get your point about you being the only ActiveRain member to get one of these bogus experimental emails. Is it OK that others got them? What if everyone sent out fake emails?

No one attacked Randal. Randal made a snippy comment about the commenter possibly spending too much time acquiring letters behind her name vs. responding to fake email leads. Then Ralph saw fit to go into a rage about about how we agents who don't have systems like he does reminds him of all the loser agents in his office who bitch and moan about how slow business is. It's probably a good thing to send back canned email responses. It keeps you from saying things in the heat of the moment that you really shouldn't.

The educational tool we saw was that how an agent responds to fellow agents here at ActiveRain is probably reflective of how they will respond to their clients. How do you respond to an opposing point of view? Do you attack them personally with insults or do you put up counterpoints in a civil discussion?

TIM - Easy killer - there was no fit of rage. Just fun debate and maybe some jests to get you over to my blog to comment. Who exactly did I insult? I challenge you to find a quote where I actually called someone a disparaging remark, or attacked their character. You said in RANDY's blog that I called you a loser. I never said any such thing.

MIRIAM - If you felt insulted, I am sorry. I only wanted to stir you up a little more as well. That being said

HAVE A GREAT DAY!

Great Post Ralph it looks like you what to-so to get that business still coming in. I will keep watching this blog because it is great info

Ben

It is a tough decision

Im on Mtg end and when we get"fake leads" its hard to know what to do

I follow up a few times when i first get the lead and use my best judgement to feel if the person is blowing me off, just not iunterested or actually just busy.

If i try 3 times in a week w no response i'll put it aside to follow up again in a few weeks.

I let the person who gave me the lead know what is going on so they dont think i was the one who dropped the ball if this was in fact legit.

DOMINICK GACCINO

Branch Manager

First Suffolk Mortgage Corp

Ralph, good post, that is all i do in between everything else, i just sent out another 1000 newletters, i spend most days marketing, and prospecting, while my partner takes care of most of the buyers.

Thanks for rating my posts as well.

Ralph; how does linking your post increase your points? I wasn't aware of this feature.

Tim Linking a post (to my knowledge) does not raise my points. I do believe having a post with lots of comments does. I am still trying to figure out exactly what it is that does give me bonus pts.

APR

2007

Since this blog was about fake leads? Is there such a thing as a decent lead generation company? I use one I wont mention there name but let's just it sucks. E-mail and I will let you know who there are. Also,does anybody use talking house? And if they do,does it work? Somebody please let me know.

I put them in a group of their own. I never delete a lead. I send multi million dollar homes or something. I sometimes get a response back. example: I sent an email with 6 high priced listings to all my leads that never answer last month and now I'm working with 4 out of about 250 leads that were supposedly dead.

APR

2007

I am a fan of automated systems that allow you to change them up a bit, much like Top Producer. Thanks for the great postings.

APR

2007

Thanks for the post.

The internet, AR, etc are tools -- however, one must not forget the basics as you point out.

APR

2007

There are many fakes out there trying to get into your pocket. Recent, a company called me say they asset managers, they wanted me to send $10,000 refundable to look a REO list that was for sale for $5mm.

No thank you.

Charles

In most states the stealth sites would be in violation state license law. It would be illegal in Georgia and Virginia because of lack of disclosure. In fact they do not comply with the updated Realtor Code of ethics. There are no affiliated names of the Realtor on sites. They are blind sites:

Standard of Practice 12-9

^®

and that REALTOR^®'s or non-member licensee's state(s) of licensure in a reasonable and readily apparent manner.

APR

2007

Good post.

APR

2007

There is a difference between a blind site and a stealth site. People just don't realize it and practice it. Stealth sites are great and disclosure can easily be made at the bottom of the page.

But disclosure is not made.

APR

2007

UM--- Jim

That is why the following text is on my stealth site:

Information Provided courtesy of Weichert, Realtors® - Unum Properties - Licensed in WI

Take a look at the site before assuming I am not in compliance.

It complies if you are the broker of record, and if it complies with what is required by your state license laws. Where is your name? Are your the broker of record?

Ralph, I use a program called Rainmaker for my automatic responses. What do you use? I have specific letters sent out depending on what they are requesting and it does look like a personal letter.

I use TOP PRODUCER 7i, I also have the Top Producer for BlackBerry software.

I write all my own campaign letters custom so that they don't sound so canned. This has been a big component. I also time the first email to come after the first MLS autosearch email with... "Have you received the properties I emailed yet?" as the first line in the email. The email is short, sweet and generally the hotter prospects reply to them meaning #1 they are interested prospects and #2 they actually thing I personally sent them that email.

APR

2007

We all get fake leads, mickey mouse, etc. But, mine bounce back when I send my first email then I don't put them in the drip email campaigns

My take on fake leads is this, just as in any other form of prospecting, you have to kiss a lot of frogs, before you meet a Prince or in my case a Princess! Get some Chap stick and pucker up!!

Some leads turn out some don't but if you don't have systems in place to follow up on them you are going to miss them. Take this discussion as a positive and reveiw the systems you have in place and make sure they are working.

Good post Ralph!

APR

2007

Doesn't just burn you when these companies who have been legitimate are getting into the "internet lead" business and charge you $30 for fake leads?

Has anyone tried to use mortgage leads? They offer a hot call transfer service.

APR

2007

We have enough things going on in our real estate career, That I don't want to waste my time on a fake lead. I do add them to drip campaigns, but the time wasted talking with potential clients shouldn't be wasted like that.

JUL

2007

That what's nice about generating your own leads. Its ok if they don't pan out in your favor because it did not cost you anything. Some lead generation companies out there that charge you per lead will burn a hole in your pocket if the leads are not warm and fresh.

i think you have to follow up on them all no matter what

if at least to make the person who sent you the lead happy

even if you v=cant do something now staying in touch may produce something down the line

I don't get the stealth site? It doesn't seem to have anything to do with Kenosha RE and goes in circles when you click on links.

JUL

2007

When I used a lead-generation company and had to pay for every bogus lead, it was EXTREMELY frustrating to get bogus leads and duplicate leads. Now I just pay a monthly fee, in conjunction with my website, and it doesn't bother me as much. Frankly, I expect that bogus leads just go with the territory. I have to treat all as legit and hope that some pan out. Having an automated response system is the key to doing that consistently - and it helps avoid any mis-perception that I am not treating all people equally (as in Fair Housing viiolation).

Excellent point in your comment, Jim. Miriam, speaking as a 33+ year survivor in this business, I have found that thick skin is an absolute requirement, as well as shoulders that shed perceived offensive verbal input like water over a dam.

Oh yes... thanks for your post and the link, Ralph!

Working with several websites, I treat every lead as a warm body looking for a new home. My assistants get really upset when I question their follow up. It's true! You can prospect all you want, but if you don't follow up, you've wasted the entire process.

Randi,

Great post and you are definitely correct, you can do all the ActiveRaining (points) and learning that you want. But it will not really help if you do not impliment them.(tips)

Thank you for this post. I have recently been trying to learn more about lead generating tools and had not realized so many companies send out fake leads. I will have to put more research into which company is the most reputable and then realize that I will still be getting leads that are in fact "fake" and actually lead to nowhere.

Interesting Post.You are right on. The Active Rain is a fun place to search and participate in bloging, and even addicting... but our daily job is so much of a time consuming (I know for me it is) that it is very hard to keep up with the posting and writing.

Howdy Ralph

I would like to give you my congarats on a good and helpful post

Have a good one

Thanks for sharing the info.

JUL

2007

I totally agree. Consistency is the key to being successful in this business and you summed up alot of the key areas. Thank you!

I hardly get a chance to get on active rain and write a blog. I do enjooy commenting on postings and reading the wealth of knowledge that is out there. I have found AR to be helpful when it comes to something I am considering or trying out.

As far as leads go! I do the same thing, I call and check their status and if they are several months out or just looking I just set and forget it and maybe they will get back to me. It doesn't happen most times but it is nice to hear when someone calls me up and tells me they have been getting my emails for the last year or so and are ready to make a move.

I just received my first fake lead and of course I followed up on it. I don't know what will happen when it is received out there in cyberspace but, I followed up anyway.

JUL

2007

Personally, instead of responding to all those lead generating sites I developed some solid relationships with local lenders. When they have truly qualified leads they share them. And I know in advance what the price limit is going to be and if they were serious enough to get their finances in order first.

On the other hand....those 'blind' leads are akin to collecting earthworms to go fishing. You can see them, you might even touch them....and then.....POOF! they disappear. But you want to go fishing, so you keep digging. It's all part of the business.

What works for one may not work for all. It's what makes us work toward the same goal, but use different tools to achieve it.

I takes systems and discipline to make sure that this followup happens. I use Goldmine to make sure that I am following up on all the leads that I get.

I think it was a wonderful educational tool. I found out that if I diligently follow-up with email requests for information (even it it's semi-automated responses), that I'm in the minority of agents. Woo-hoo! If I take the 1% of internet leads that actually convert to a client, goody for me! I'm never too busy for more clients (or your referrals)!

I don't really like automated systems, but I must admit that they do work.

All of the e-mail requests I get are responded to as qucikly as possible. But all of our marketing is directed to get leads to call us or to leave their number and best time to call. E-mails are good, but I want to know who I'm dealing with and to determine if they are serious. All leads that we got via the Internet are followed up with a phone call (IF the lead leaves a phone number), otherwise they go into our e-mail drip campaign.

BTW, in NJ, real estate agents aren't allowed to use "stealth sites". No matter the type of site, if we are soliciting responses from real estate consumers, we HAVE to disclose (somewhere on the site) that we are real estate agents and which brokerage we represent.

Thank you for openning up this discussion. There was a lot to learn even in the comments. I will be standing by listening and learning.

JUL

2007

If you get fake leads, just sell them a fake house! There is a place for this - Second Life, I think it is called. Never visited, as I do not wish to fall down a rabbit hole like that little girl Alice.

AUG

2007

Who and why? That's my question. Isn't there enough to do in this life to keep people busy, other than generating fake anything.

Here's a question I can not get a soul to answer.

Ralph! You have a laundry list of communities where you posted this. When I try to post to more than 5, I am informed that I can post to a million, but only the first 5 will show up. How are you doing this. I imagine you get better feedback by doing this. I'm hoping you'll share this information with me. Thanks.

We all have to deal with bogus leads to some degree. I keep in contact with leads after they give me a time-line to sell or purchase and I work with them accordingly. I tell them I will gladly send you listings that fit your criteria... When are you planning to purchase a home? If it is within the next 3 or 6 months, I closely monitors their progress and make sure they become pre-approved and let them know I am setting up a file. If they are six months and out I try to feel them out to see if they are pulling my leg or if they are serious. If they are serious I have my financial planner call them to prepare them for their future purchase or sale, I offer them a free consultation to make the most out of their home sale or to simple prepare them for their home purchase.

I have used this little trick to qualify some of my leads in the past. I will email them all year long to no avail, no response, nothing. If I am lucky enough to get a phone I will constantly call... and alot of times the voicemail message is a computer generated response. This doesnt tell me anything.

So, the first day of December rolls around and I send out a mass email to everyone that I havent been able to qualify telling them that I am putting my holiday mailer together and I dont have their mailing address. Could they please verify it for me. Believe it or not, I get about a 10% response.

AUG

2007

I can agree it's no wonder nobody is wanting to buy leads these days. There are many providers buying trigger leads off the Internet for pennies on the dollar and reselling data for $10.00 -$15.00 per lead. The information is sold & resold several times and called "exclusive".

That is why we felt we have something legitimate with our company. We go directly to the courthouses. We get to the information the quickest before the homeowner is getting several phone calls from brokers. It gives you a chance to sell. There is no magic in what we provide. You can take the time to go to the courthouse yourself and get the same information.

Sunlark Reasearch has been providing life insurance data and decided to get into The ARMs business. We have a network of over 200 researchers all over the US and over 4000 applicants in our database. We are not doing anything that you can't go and do yourself. We just wanted to be able to do the leg work for you. The idea founded http://www.ARMsLeads.com.

Lark Tucker is the owner of Sunlark Research. She hired me to run the ARMs Project. I am proud of what she has built. She is a honest business woman with outstanding integrity. I am proud of what we can offer and proud to say we are one that does NOT resell our leads.

It's hard for a lead provider to do respectful business because of all the crooks out there selling trash. Just know there are some businesses trying to give you the honesty and quality that you deserve.

I've been involved in Internet Marketing with several business ventures. From what I have read, some people here are well versed in the subject and practice. Here are just a few tips that will save you time, money, and other valuable resources:

1. Only pay for CURRENT-HOT leads. Sure they cost more, but you more than recover the costs at closing. The real estate industry is dynamic and constantly changing. If the leads are not dated (Today!) and right on target, don’t buy them.

2. Never pay for soft, cold, warm, outdated, related, or any other type of lead other than CURRENT-HOT leads. I’ve tried these listings before. They are time consuming. They become expensive because very few, if any, will positively respond. They just don’t pay for themselves.

3. Persistence and Presence. Email, auto responders, and stealth websites are a few great internet tools to reach your target audiences. There are plenty of low cost services that are general, industry specific, or customizable. Use these to generate your own leads, make your services known, follow-up, be a constant reminder, and be there when the client is ready for you. Most clients will call you when they need your services, simply because you are easy to remember through a constant presence.

4. SPAM, doesn’t always come in a can. Be sure to follow Federal and State Spamming laws. Provide “opt-out” provisions in all internet solicitations and honor them. For more info on spamming: Federal (http://www.ftc.gov/spam/), and your State (http://www.spamlaws.com/state/summary.shtml). If you subscribe to a auto-responder service, most provide out-out provisions.

5. Google/BLOG/Internet Traffic. How many people do you know looking to sell or buy a home today are going Google your name? They will rather perform a search like, “top real estate agent” “local home sales” or “real estate sales.” You need an internet presence! First, develop your own website. Be sure your website is filled with “key words” and useful information. Join Google and purchase key words and related advertisement. Update and expand your website regularly. Google, Yahoo, spiders, WebCrawler’s… etc. are searching for these types of internet activity to move your website to the top of the search engine listings. Join BLOGS and forums, use internet ads, submit online articles, and get your domain, name, and email everywhere on the internet. Make it easy for potential clients to find you and contact you.

Here is an excellent article about internet leads: http://realtytimes.com/rtapages/20070807_rainmaker.htm

MAR

2008

I wholeheartedly agree. Totally cool. I have trouble getting email responses back, and all they left was an email address. So I'm never sure if I was sent to a junk mail filter or what.

I agree that paying for leads can be a waste of time and money. Leads from personal referrals are what I love most.

i spent a year chasing house value leads. not worth the time or effort...

Great post. Slap the fake lead guy and thank you for the 25 points.

If you want to work internet leads you have to respond as quickly as possible and have no expectations that you will hear back. Like every other facet of working real estate sales, it is a numbers game, the more people who contact you the more leads you have and it is critical to put them on a drip marketing system.

I've gotten my share of fake leads like we all have. There are some software programs that are out there that are starting to hindre this and look for true information when the person is filling out the site sheet

MAR

2008

Well, I read your blog and all of the comments! Lots of different perspectives... I too want to know HOW you post on more that 5 places..... Vickie

As we provide lead management services, this is one of the things that we deal with on a consistent basis. The first thing we do is check the phone number. If we get a live person, great! If the number is no good, it's on to phase 2 - e-mail. We send out an initial response e-mail. If the message doesn't bounce, then we leave them on an automate drip e-mail campaign. It doesn't cost anything for u to leave them on the drip campaign.

We've also found that the majority of the time that we receive fake leads from our clients' websites is when the consumer is required to give information to access the listings or something similar. They want to see listings and not have to give you their name, rank and serial number to do it. So they give up fake info. When they are allowed to look at listings with no strings attached, but required to give up some contact information for something else of value that they've found on your website (a report, something sent to them via regular mail, etc.), the chances of them giving you bogus information drops subsantially.

~Renae

Thanks for claryfying and I agree with your viewpoint.

Dee,

You know how much I enjoy your blogs and respect your opinion, but in this case I have to differ with you. Any and all companies that sell you leads are scams and derive from the old MLM-world. Sorry to have to say that but been there, done that, and my wallet is empty as proof of it. All thoise looking to sell you leads will say anything to have you pay. Once they have your money...try to hold them to what you were told.

Yes, it is a numbers game, but you shouldn't have to pay someone so that THEY make money regardless if you do or not. Remember, in NJ we agents CANNOT pay any non-agent for referals so that the leads have to be structured differently. And you can do alot better on your own to attract leads then any of the lead generation companies. You couldn't imagine the "creative" ways these scammers use to get you to call them back. If we did any of that, as real estate agents, we'd lose our RE license (at least, in NJ).

MAR

2008

Terry - I'm sorry to hear that you received nothing in return for your investment in lead generation services but we have clients that are actually getting clients from theirs! The leads are not all fake (it depends, of course, on which services you use) and some are actually really ready now to use an agent. We've had the most success with HomeGain.

~Renae

MAR

2008

Ralph~ Totally agree with you. I use active rain as a way to pull leads from the google search but it doesn't stop there. You have to be multiple places for everything to work correctly.

Good points. Blogging alone does not generate customers. It is the marketing and follow-up that really matters.

MAY

2008

I just recently joined and scanning the blogs found yours, interesting. I am learning so much...thanks for sharing.

MAY

2008

Hi Ralph,

Great post! Gary Keller teaches: "You can never have enough good leads. Never." Bogus leads are just part of conductng business on the internet. The only way to avoid bogus leads is to avoid the internet completely. That would be a huge career mistake for most agents.

One key to growing your business on a long-term basis, as you mentioned, is lead incubation. That way you can sometimes convert "bogus" leads into real transactions! :)

Great post. I like the idea of a red hot lead. There are so many companies that bombard us with leads that go absolutely nowhere. I've turned so many down i can't remember the figure. I have to do more investigation now that i've read this post.