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Permit or no permit; how would you vote? Oregon measure 63

By
Real Estate Appraiser with Estimation Nation Corporation

Oregon has a surprising new ballot measure coming up this November.... voters will be asked whether or not permits from the city should be necessary for projects at or less than $35,000 in cost.  This includes electrical and plumbing (!!!). 

I realize that this may sound hypocritical after writing a somewhat contradictory blog about my experience with a city inspector, but I can only imagine what sort of effect this bill may have if it passes.  For instance, lenders might start requiring full home inspections prior to purchase for Oregon properties to ensure their investment is safe... Insurance companies might be able to deny a claim on your house because of lack proper permits.  Some insurance companies might abandon Oregon properties all together raising the overall insurance rates for Oregon customers. 

If I were a condo dweller, I would raise an eyebrow every time I heard a hammer.  Ameture plumbing and wiring is too close for comfort when it lies within that same wall.  As a homeowner, does this allow me to build a third story onto my house as long as it costs less than $35,000?  How about a balcony deck made with re-purposed 2x4s?  How many people would accidentally be installing their patios and decks over their neighbors property lines?

As an appraiser, I would likely be more apt to calling in professionals whenever I saw what looked to be the work of an under-qualified person/home owner.  This could cost home owners valuable time and money when refinancing or purchasing their next home.  Because just as a reminder to all, appraisers are hired to determine an opinion of value... inspectors are hired to know the bones of your homes.

Fred Chamberlin
Guild Mortgage Co - Oak Harbor WA - Oak Harbor, WA
Oak Harbor/Whidbeynulls, #1 Experienced FHA Mortgage Consultant

Sara, that is an excellent question. I am torn about the answer. For one, I hate government interference, but at the same time, I don't want someone wiring their house next to mine when they don't know what the heck they are doing. I am going to re-blog. Take care.

Sep 15, 2008 09:09 AM
Sara Goodwin
Estimation Nation Corporation - Portland, OR
Portland, Oregon Appraiser

Hi Fred - I'm rather torn as well, but I was surprised it was even a debatable issue.  Thank you for the reblog - I'm honored :-)

Sep 15, 2008 12:03 PM
Charles Buell
Charles Buell Inspections Inc. - Seattle, WA
Seattle Home Inspector

Sara, most states already have such laws with much lower thresholds than $35,000.  Enforcement is a whole different issue, and states that do have such laws always have houses for sale with projects that never got inspected.  In my opinion $35,000 is WAY too high a starting point.

Sep 17, 2008 04:18 AM
Rick Maday
Schaumburg, IL
Schaumburg Home Inspector -

Sara,

I'm with Charles on this.  It may lead to unscrupulous contracts doing big projects for $34,999.  Permits should be based on the work being done, NOT the price.

You can re-wire most homes for much less than $35,000 - guess no permit is needed for that!

Wonder who is sponsoring this idea?

Sep 17, 2008 04:45 AM
Sara Goodwin
Estimation Nation Corporation - Portland, OR
Portland, Oregon Appraiser

Hi Charles - Good to know.  I should have taken the time to research what other states were doing.  It does seem ridiculous to associate the work with monetary value rather than a type of work being done.  And I agree that $35,000 seems quite high.... but couldn't you just as easily put a $5,000 cap in writing and then the home owner would simply piece out their project in $5,000 increments?

Rick - Here's the 'genius'.  This isn't the first questionable move...

Sep 17, 2008 05:08 AM
Charles Buell
Charles Buell Inspections Inc. - Seattle, WA
Seattle Home Inspector

Sara, how about this scenario----the owner does the work, gets the permits, pays himself nothing, and buys $34,999 worth of materials:)

Sep 17, 2008 05:55 AM
Rick Maday
Schaumburg, IL
Schaumburg Home Inspector -

Yeah, Sara, it needs to be by the type of work.  ANY requirements tied to $$$ can easily be circumvented.

Sep 17, 2008 06:16 AM
Sara Goodwin
Estimation Nation Corporation - Portland, OR
Portland, Oregon Appraiser

Charles - That's what I figure... if you cut out labor costs, you've cut your budget by at least 50% and so a $35,000 remodel/addition, etc would really be more like a $70,000 'real life' remodel/addition.

Rick - I concur.

Sep 18, 2008 06:16 AM
Amy McAllister
Amy McAllister Realty LLC - Hood River, OR
REALTOR Hood River, Oregon

Sara, I think I will have to vote to keep the permits. Some types of work need to be inspected properly to know they are done correctly and safe; electric, plumbing, gas lines, heat systems, etc. Some people think they can do it themselves but just don't know what they're doing.

Sep 21, 2008 12:28 PM
Sara Goodwin
Estimation Nation Corporation - Portland, OR
Portland, Oregon Appraiser

I have to agree with you, Amy - I think it's really asking for a real estate nightmare if there are any transactions on a property where permits are not mandatory.  I was surprised to find that FHA does not care whether or not permits were obtained for any work.  I plan on checking with the other banks as well (the ones that are left, at any rate).

It seems however that whatever any lender would overlook, the insurance company would require.  I'm still grumbling over the railing I was forced to install by our insurance company when we first moved into our house. 

Sep 23, 2008 03:25 AM
Tony and Libby Kelly
Keller Williams Realty Portland Premiere - Lake Oswego, OR
CRS, ABR, ePro, SRES, CLHMS, CDPE

I started reading this blog with no opinion on this topic at all, but everyone made such excellent points I now can't believe anyone would even CONSIDER getting rid of the permits.  Well thoughtout arguements, everyone.

Sep 24, 2008 10:29 AM
Leslie Stewart
Oregon Licensed Broker with Berkshire Hathaway HomeServices Real Estate Professionals - Stayton, OR
Realtor, ABR, CRS, Oregon Licensed Broker

I guess I find issue with the dollar figure attached to this bill.  What difference does it make?  Personally I don't like permit process but I would not want to see them go away.  Leave the major plumbing and electrical work to the experts.  The safety issue is  a biggy.  I had a hot tub wired by an amature-recreational electrician.  If you were standing outside the hot tub, grounded, and put your hands in the water you would get shocked.... not good!  Spend the money!

Sep 24, 2008 03:39 PM
Andy Raffle
Emery Federal Credit Union - Yardley, PA
Team Leader - NMLS#156564

I don;t see the problem with getting permits, I htink it is well worth whatever incomvenience they may involve.  I have flipped dozens of houses over the past 20 years and I ALWAYS get permits and I never have a problem.  I typically OVERDO what I know the inspectors will want to bother me about, things like fire stop and smike detectors, etc. and they're happy.  You don;t need soime ameteur electrician burning down a city block.

Sep 25, 2008 08:04 AM
Sara Goodwin
Estimation Nation Corporation - Portland, OR
Portland, Oregon Appraiser

Thanks Tony & Libby - It's great to get people's opinions and feedbacks to get the full spectrum of an issue sometimes.

Leslie - I'm with you.  You could build an entire house $35,000 at a time.  Put up the foundation and studs.  Stop for a month. Put up the walls/roof. Stop for a month. Add the plumbing and electrical.   Stop for a month... etc.... By the time it's over, voila... an entire unpermitted house - And what if the lot wasn't zoned for a house? Is there anyone to tell you that you have to tear it down?  No permits required... right?    I could better understand if the bill was specific to each project, but a dollar amount is pointless.

Hi Andy - The only time I've heard of builders having issues with permits is if they're not doing things properly, or the inspector doesn't show up in a timely manner.

Sep 25, 2008 02:53 PM