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Palin's lapel pin was bigger than Biden's - Other than that, Biden won by a Landslide.

When asked a question during tonight’s debate, Palin responded in complete sentences, but typically did not provide relevant answers to the questions she was asked (instead reverting to a few overly rehearsed answers).

It is also irritating to hear her condescending “conversational” style. How many times did she say “gonna” or substitute “ing” with “in’”. I believe quite a few former McCain/Palin voters will vote for Obama/Biden simply because they are sick of hearing Palin’s patronizing tone. People should say, voters aren’t stupid Ms. Sarah – you can talk to us like big, educated boys and girls.

Another interesting point I heard tonight – Palin was watched by about 5 million people on her embarrassing, revealing, and disastrous interviews with Katie Couric and Charles Gibson. Palin was watched by about ten (10) times more people for her speech at the Republican National Convention and for tonight’s debate (in which she spoke in complete sentences). So, in other words, 45 million people don't know how uninformed this politician is...

Nobody paying attention to Palin can think she is prepared to be VP. Agree or disagree, what are your thoughts?

Best regards,
Jay

Jay Allen
MovieVoice
jay@movievoice.net

Posted by Jay Allen - MovieVoice on 10/02/2008 10:41 PM

Comments (190)

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190 Comments on Palin's lapel pin was bigger than Biden's - Other than that, Biden won by a Landslide.

OCT

2008

Nobody is more irritating than Biden. Well maybe Obama.

Jay, I think she spoke like someone you would have coffee with rather than the normal patronizing politician tone.

Jim, you must not have seen tonight's debate or last week's debate.

Hugh, someone we would have coffee with is probably not someone we need as VP.

I found Palin's rehearsed answers far more irritating than Biden's logic.

Stewart, I agree - to be irritated with Biden's answers is the same as being irritated with logic.

Jay, I felt like I was in middle school listening to a math teacher talk about social studies. This woman is a complete idiot. She was trained for this interview that is for sure. I love the way she avodied every question by bringing "energy" back into the debate. What a joke.

Biden's logic? This woman just got McCain get even in the polls. You are so brainwashed in your liberal views that you didn't see she just reminded people of Ronald Reagan. Don't look now, but Obama just lost the election.

I don't know which polls Niicholas is checking, but they're not relevant to the current Presidential Election. McCain is no longer even in the polls .... Obama is ahead.

.... talk about brainwashed.

Stewart ~ Hello, earth to Stewart. I said the polls will show soon enough the surge after tonight. Mark my words my liberal friend.

Her accent (the reason she drops the g on ing words) has nothing to do with her intelligence. Being a Texan myself I am sure I speak quite differently than someone from Hollywood. It doesn't make me stupid. America is a melting pot with many different accents. Never judge intelligence by the accent dear. You'll only make yourself look snobby and foolish.

By the way...it's MRS. Palin.

I am thrilled to finally have a politician who speaks the plain ol english language. Everyone else speaks as if they are writing tax code so none of us poor little stupid people can understand what the heck they are saying. They don't want us to understand what they are saying. She's genuine. A refreshing change.

OCT

2008

What a great debate. I really enjoyed it. Biden was great. Palin was better than I expected.

She still has my vote. (Barring a comeback of Ron Paul)

I rushed home to catch the debate......and although she did better then her previous interviews.....she's definitely not my cup of tea......hot suit though, got to give her that! To me she sounds like she trying to be an educated 'redneck' the twangs and you'alls are a bit annoying coming from someone who has the potential to represent the country. With all the gaffs that bush has made over the years - his international personna is sadly mocked not just by his own people but world wide.......I guess its her attempt to be seen as a Main-streeter?

I have a whole collection of videos of her.......hmmm wonder if i should do a blog about it - I'm Canadian so I can't piss anyone off right?

Are we talking about an electrical surge? Did something get cross-wired?

I don't think its about the accent, America has a beautiful diversity of accents, and the Texas Accent is one of my favorites.........But with Sarah P its about sloppy linguistics...and a high level of ignorance about a wide variety of topics......

According to a poll conducted by readers of the Wall Street Journal, Joe Biden won the debate with 53.7% of readers voting in his favor against 45.8% in favor of Palin.

Palin was referred to as "folksy" with her "I'll betcha you're going to hear some fear in that parent's voice," and "Darn right it was the predator lenders."

Jay - two comments:

An informal, west coastconversational style (especially northwest) is not condescending!

Tom Brokaw's final comment to Brian Williams at the end of last nights debate wrap up: "The democrats have to be happy there is only one vice presidential debate."

After the Presidential debate, democrats screamed Rasmussen Pollster said it takes three days to get an accurate poll after denates, now you give these numbers, how sad Stewart that you are so sure of yourself. Only time will tell.

Uh Oh Jay, looks like you stirred up the pot in here. I still agree with you Jay. Palin is incompetent, period.

Here's proof in the pudding. Catch her off guard, and ask a question, this is what you get:

http://activerain.com/blogsview/719351/Can-Palin-Name-1

Incompentent, wow, and that's your proof. Great investigative reporting.

OK Callie. Let's test your competence.

Please explain to me why Liberalism is the best route for the country?

Her accent may have nothing to do with intelligence but saying nuCUlear, ala GW Bush, sure makes her sound dumb. And how many times did she call McCain a maverick? Once or twice I can live with. That will be the Saturday Night Live skit this week. Tina Fey standing there repeating over and over and over, "Well John McCain is the maverick". Similar to the bit last go round where they did Gore referring to the, "Locked Box".

Look, she did not hurt McCain but she didn't help much either. And she still did not answer the question of, "Is she ready to lead if needed"? Deep down, would you want her negotiating foreign policy with Putin or some other world leader if McCain, God forbid, became incapacitated or worse? Not me. She may make a great energy czar, and her homey appeal may settle the republican base. But it's not nearly enough to sway enough people to vote for that ticket.

Carl - Liberalism is not running for the country's top job, just like conservatism isn't. Most Democrats and Republicans for that matter have views on various subjects that lean between these two points of view. Don't be so narrow.

Wow. What a shame that so many people are so biggoted against people who speak differently than them.

I was watching a BBC movie the other night and the British actress said she had an "idere" as in "idea".

Apparently you all would think she was an idiot too which would include most Britains.

Open up your little minds, broaden your horizons, do a little bit of travelling outside of your podunk little villages and you will see that people speak differently and pronounce words differently all over the country and world.

It doesn't make them stupid. It makes you intollerant of differences.

....and you call yourselves "liberal" minded. Yeah right. You are only liberal about everyone being just like you.

Pollster Frank Luntz's focus group on Fox News watched the St. Louis debate. The group was evenly divided between Kerry and Bush supporters from the 2004 election. After the debate Luntz asked if she won, and his group almost unanimously said she had. The New York Post cover Friday shared a similar sentiment , roaring: "PIT BULL SARAH SHOWS HER BITE."

I beg to differ John. Obama has one of the most Liberal voting records. Liberalism in running for office.

If Palin had a speech impediment, which she does not, it would be a different situation. However, she can say "going to" instead of "gonna" - it has nothing to do with accents or dialects. But she thinks that "joe six pack" and hockey moms will "relate" to that language better. She is simply talking down to voters.

Jay - In your rush to judgment you clearly ignore the fact that Governor Palin also had more attractive shoes than Senator Biden.

Since statistics have been offered - the Fox News call in poll (unscientific) favored the Governor by 86% to 12% - the other 2% were not explained. It will suffice to say that those who were predisposed toward the Dems coming in saw a win for their side. Those who were predisposed to the Republicans saw their side on top. More careful polling data will be available in a few days to quantify the reactions of the independents and undecideds.

In my opinion, there was no clear winner (although I take issue with more of Senator Bidens answers as being incorrect or untrue) for the debate.

However, Governor Palin has gone toe to toe with a 35 year Senate veteran and has projected confidence and authority while performing at least as well as her opponent. The dialog was, for the most part, civil - but I believe the Governor connected with her chosen audience better than Mr Biden.

Sarah Palin did what she needed to do with this event - she restored the favorable view of her own personal brand and, in my view, set aside any further legitimate questions about her basic qualifications for the job of Vice President.

Advantage Palin.

Jay I agree with your stance. She repeated herself multiple times because there's a limited number of answers she's rehearsed. Her lack of knowledge was glaringly obvious in the debate (and even more so in the Couric interviews). As a business person if someone asks me a direct question they deserve a specific answer - that's even more important for a leader of our nation. I can't count how many times I've heard "folksy" describing her demeanor and word choice. However, 2nd graders can't vote so she needs to be talking to us adults. I don't want my next door neighbor to Vice President; I want an intelligent, informed leader to be in the White House!

I disagree that there is any "ADVANTAGE PALIN".

In the remote circumstance that this is in fact the situation, it would be "DISADVANTAGE AMERICA".

I disagree that there is any "ADVANTAGE PALIN".

In the remote circumstance that this is in fact the situation, it would be "DISADVANTAGE AMERICA".

"Open up your little minds, broaden your horizons, do a little bit of travelling outside of your podunk little villages and you will see that people speak differently and pronounce words differently all over the country and world."

10/03/2008 11:33 AM

by Cheri' Smith (ERA Whitaker Realty)

Fact Check: Sarah Palin first applied for a Passport last year (July 2007) when she travelled to Kuwait for her photo opportunity with the Alaska National Guard. Up until that time she had never travelled overseas to countries that required her to have a Passport.

So, who is the person with a "little mind", who needed to "broaden her horizon" and do "a little bit of travelling outside her podunk little village"?

Why yes, Stewart - Travel abroad is soooo important, that we should just demand that Samantha Brown, Anthony Bourdain, Andrew Zimmern, and others from The Travel Channel run for President!

Yea, that's the ticket!

The lady won hands down.. so much more class .. so much not fake.. appears to tell the truth and not wet the finger to see which way the wind is blowing first.

Did obama vote present today in the vote

Too bad your elitism shows through your comments. Oops Sarah messed up on a couple "pop" quizzes and suddenly she is "dumb". Please- give me a break.

If it were up to Biden-

Obama would not be the Dem's nomination because the Presidency does not lend itself for "on the job training"

Hillary would actually be the VP nomination for the Dems because she is actually "more qualified"

Oh and He would be running with McCain.

Stewart - there you go with that elitist if you don't travel outside the U.S. crap again.

Palin clearly did the job she was supposed to last night - which was appeal to and solidify the conservative base of voters. Whining about her language just shows you for the elitist you are - she talks like middle America. Biden was also slick and didn't hurt his ticket at all. No liberal cares about how many gaffes or outright lies he told because they believe the same stuff. So the people that matter, as usual, are those in the middle - the independents. Since it's obvious there aren't many of them here, we'll have to wait a day or so and see what the polls say. That's what will decide the election - not the posturing partisans.

Finally, to the commenter who wouldn't want his next door neighbor being VP. I wouldn't either cause my neighbor is an a** hole. However, if my neighbor was Sarah Palin she would sure have my vote. After all, the career Washington insiders have taken their best shot and look where it's gotten us. Our founding fathers never envisioned a perpetual political class who made a career of feeding at the public trough. Unfortunately the avenue has long been closed off to all but the wealthiest and the politically connected. I, for one, am glad to see a common man - or woman, in this case, in the mix. Can't screw it up any worse than the pros have.

I wish I could feel as strongly about these candidates as some of you do, I watched last night thinking they both acted quite civil and seemed to be having a good time and both had their shares of lies and neither one really won me over. I don't like or trust any of the four of them and frankly wish there was a door number 3.

We all know people that are athletic - that doesn't mean that they're ready to score touchdowns in the NFL.

We all know people that are smart - that doesn't mean that they're ready to win on Jeopardy.

We all know people that can sing - that doesn't mean they're ready to win American Idol.

We all know "ordinary" people like Sarah Palin - that doesn't mean that Palin is ready to serve as VP and god forbid as President.

Who -

People who are,

People who can

Stewart, How much Palin has travelled has nothing to do with the fact that people on this blog are concentrating on her accent and verbage rather than what she was saying.

I have been all over the world and country and she speaks like Atlantans, Carolinians, Texans, Oklahomans, pretty much every southern state in this country. We all know you "sophisticated" Hollywood people are superior to us backwards ass southerners but get off your Movievoice soap box and realize that we all speak differently. It doesn't show a measure of our abilities in the way we speak regardless of your prejudice.

I will take her twang over a Hollywood snob any day of the week and you all can bet your veneers that she'd make a better leader than Biden any day of the week.

and for the record......no one wins in a debate. It's rediculous to say otherwise. It's a debate. You debate or volley issues back and forth. There's no winners and no losers....just an exchange of words and ideas and insults.

Cheri' - I was born and raised in the South - more specifically West Tennessee and now I live in West Kentucky. My family is from the South. I am not criticizing her dialect or accent. I am criticizing the fact that she talks down to voters by using the type of slang that is taught to people who major in journalism (as she did at 5 colleges) - the folksy style is something she has learned and a skill she has honed to be a more effective politician.

If you believe that she speaks like "Atlantans, Carolinians, Texans, Oklahomans" - you have to believe she is a phony. Whether its Minnesota, Quebec or Alaska - people from the north (like Palin), aren't supposed to sound like people from the South.

Carl no need to test my competence, I'm not the one running in this election. Carl,

let's be honest, if Mccain keeled over and Palin stepped in as president would you

feel good about that? She was trained to say what she said at the debate, and still

dodged around questions. More than 1/2 of America are Democrats. Get over it and

move on. By the way, I wanted to ask you how you feel about the turn our country

has taken since Bush came into office. McBush will only make it worse. Open your

eyes, it's time for drastic change!

Vote Demo!

It's truly sad that one could watch such a debate and be proud of anyone who performed the way Palin did. Palin's performance in her short existence in the lime-light has been a disgrace at best for anyone who actually values knowledge and intellect.

Admittedly, Palin didn't answer the questions and not because she was bravely standing up to the "liberal" media and Gwen Ifill's clear bias for Obama (for all of the FOX fans out there).

Palin didn't get crossed up on her answers because she continually asked and answered her own questions with no rebuttal from the "liberal gotcha" moderator who was obviously trying to shamelessly sell books - right Mr. O'Reilly? There weren't mistakes to be made because there were no spontaneous follow-up questions asked to actually delve into the details of a subject. She would've had to have had sabotaged note cards to have made any major mistakes.

Her softball interviews with Katie Couric couldn't have made it any more clear to those paying attention as to how uniformed she really is and how bad her performances really are if you start speaking to the nuances of many subjects except for of course her energy policies in Wasilla. Extra credit for all of those third graders out there who took a break from Elmo to watch the debate - what state is Wasilla in?

George W. Bush came off as simple "joe six pack" in his debates, too. Anyone remember? In doing so, he successfully fooled half of you out there to vote for him not once but twice. Now (as Bush has unequivocally proven) we all know that he really is exactly how he sounds, good ole simple "joe six pack". We now have a vice presidential candidate again trying to fight to win over the hearts and minds of good ole "joe six pack". And, to some extent, it's working again. I guess third times a charm for some of you.

So sure, let's expand the roll of the vice president's office. After all, as Palin stated, Dick Cheney's worst act as vice president was his 'duck hunting accident'. Right?

She can remember the duck hunting accident but can't name too many supreme court cases or magazines that she reads or ... oh it doesn't matter she's just like you and me. Well, now that I think of it was it a duck hunting accident ... oh well, you know what I mean.

Just what our country needs ... more good ole "joe six pack"!

Gee wiz Katie, I'll have to get back to you on that one!

Rush put it best today....."she kicked Biden's ass last night"...plain and simple.

Jay & Cheri - Palin accent is just like that of several Alaskans that I know

Jay - Thanks for getting an illuminating debate going with this Blog.

It's interesting to see how Cheri resorts to name-calling instead of submitting a well reasoned arguement. It's amusing how Mike refers to my opinion (that prospective world leaders should be well travelled) as elitist crap. And finally, also interesting how Jeff doesn't get the bigger picture of what I'm saying about travelling abroad.

So, when all is said and done, they've called me an "elitist snob". Could that be because they cannot handle any form of intellectually logical discourse?

Hi Stewart: As David kindly pointed out, this is what you get when you listen to Limbaugh, Savage, Hanity, and the likes. Name calling and "just like me" is the name of the game.

No one should need to resort to name calling as your intellect should enable you to make your point.

Roger I like the way you think brother.

I felt she definitely earned the redneck vote last night, and yep, I am just being honest here. The sheer amount of stupidity displayed should really be appalling to anyone who is actually concerned about this country, but hey, let's just call it a dialect, and homey-ness, and girl-next-door thing we like so much, and move on... Hmmm, let's see, what are the chances a person who went to five different colleges for ONE degree, can't name a single news source at the age of 44, believes the Earth is 6,000 years old (who btw happens to live in a place where million-year-old mammoths are currently being dug up due to global warming she also doesn't believe in), and oh, god, do I have to go on...

It seems the only thing she learned from her many years of formal education was how to put on a shit eating grin on her face, irrespective of the subject matter, cause people like to see her smiling....

Stewart - that's because it is elitist crap, no different from Obama's elitist crap about only speaking English. And, when you decide to actually have a form of intellectually logical discourse I would be more than willing to participate. However, I have seen none of that.

BTW - you are the only one who used the term "snob" in reference to yourself. Again, not unlike Obama's not so veiled racial references to himself. But yes, someone did state that your attitude regarding accent and travel made you look snobby and foolish. You did that to yourself and have been called on it.

BTW - how many trips around the world have you made?

Her tax returns released today show she made $166,000 in 2007 and gave $3,300 to charity. shows what a great christian she is along with the grin.

Earl - that means in one year she gave as much as Biden did in 10 years on $2.5 million.

Biden is not running on his christian laurels palin is

Mike - YOU are the one sounding foolish, needing to resort to immature name-calling.

FYI I have travelled to more than 25 countries around the world, and have spent time learning about different people, their values, traditions, cultures and religions. It is my goal to continue to explore, learn and understand this extremely diverse world we live in.

Well Roger, that's it in a nutshell for me! Bravo!

"It's truly sad that one could watch such a debate and be proud of anyone who performed the way Palin did. Palin's performance in her short existence in the lime-light has been a disgrace at best for anyone who actually values knowledge and intellect.

Admittedly, Palin didn't answer the questions and not because she was bravely standing up to the "liberal" media and Gwen Ifill's clear bias for Obama (for all of the FOX fans out there).

So sure, let's expand the roll of the vice president's office. After all, as Palin stated, Dick Cheney's worst act as vice president was his 'duck hunting accident'. Right?

Just what our country needs ... more good ole "joe six pack"!

Gee wiz Katie, I'll have to get back to you on that one!"

Well Roger, that's it in a nutshell for me! Bravo!

Admittedly, Palin didn't answer the questions and not because she was bravely standing up to the "liberal" media and Gwen Ifill's clear bias for Obama (for all of the FOX fans out there).

So sure, let's expand the roll of the vice president's office. After all, as Palin stated, Dick Cheney's worst act as vice president was his 'duck hunting accident'. Right?

Just what our country needs ... more good ole "joe six pack"!

Gee wiz Katie, I'll have to get back to you on that one!"

What does it matter how much Gov. Palin has given to charity. Supporting charity isn't only about handing over cash to them. There are numerous ways to support various charities. Earl, if that is all you can come up with to discount Gov. Palin, you are evidently narrow minded.

Sean Allen

Stewart - I understood your irrelevant, non-point regarding traveling abroad just fine. Let's try it this way - she's been to several more foreign countries that Abraham Lincoln visited prior to his becoming President - and the poor rube somehow managed to muddle through it all, despite this terrible disadvantage.

You say, "I have traveled to more than 25 countries around the world, and have spent time learning about different people, their values, traditions, cultures and religions." That's great - how about giving us 2 or 3 examples of something you learned by being in those countries, which you wouldn't have learned had you not traveled there, that are of sufficient magnitude for you to honestly say, "now that I know this, I'd be qualified to be VP, whereas before, fugetaboudit"?

And Inna - It's probably not a good idea to throw words like "stupidity" around so Liberally, especially in a comment where you use a non-word like "allpalling" - in fact, it's appalling! (literally, and figuratively)

Jeff, Lincoln didn't have airplanes. However, the Wright Brothers flew an airplane more than 50 years before Palin's birth. Therefore, there is no comparison to Lincoln's international travel versus Palin's.

I'm not trying to speak for Stewart, but to travel abroad indicates that a person has a natural curiosity about the world. During Lincoln's time there was not vast amounts of international trade and concerns about shipping jobs overseas. During Lincoln's time there was not a concern about nuclear weapons. If this great country is to continue as an empire through the 21st century and beyond, it is imperative that we have leaders with the capacity to understand complex international affairs. Since Palin does not, it is imperative that she is defeated.

OCT

2008

The level of debate around here has deteriorated to the point that this is not even fun any more.

The attacks on Governor Palin are personal and malicious. If you feel that Mrs Palin is not ready for prime time, then I tell you that I am pleased that the Republicans have their training program at the bottom of the ticket and not at the top.

It is not that I disagree with some of what has been said here, it is that I find the attackers disingenuous if they have not issued the same questions and challenges to Barack Obama. We are less than a month before an election that is important because the country needs direction and the major candidates offer distinctly different plans and philosophies for us to choose from. I don't care if some of you think the Governor talks funny or are concerned about how many frequent flyer miles she has. I am interested in what issues she thinks are important for the USA and what she thinks of those issues. She has faced the voters at several levels of her state. She has been elected and she apparently has very high approval ratings from her constituents. So unless you all have been elected officials on your own, I would consider giving her the benefit of the doubt and concentrate on policy differences you may have with her.

All of us have acquired knowledge and experience about our country and our world in our own way. I do not mean to ridicule the benefits of world travel, for example. But if Senator Obama or Governor Palin haven't been to Iran or Bosnia, there will be an advisor available who has been there to give background and advise as needed. (and yes, it may be a lobbyist) Each of you who have commented here will have experience and knowledge that I do not have. I am very interested in hearing about it so that I can learn from your travels, your reading, your work, people you have known or just you and whatever makes you different from me. I can learn from all of those things. I hope I may have something to contribute from time to time that may be interesting to you. But the personal attacks on the candidates or on the other members who comment or post here are unnecessary and take away from the value of the discussion.

So chill ! Take a deep breath, keep the dialog civil and let us continue.

Jay, I disagree. Because we are such a melting pot here in America you get people whose accents can be "tricky" to decipher. People hear me speak and they don't know where I'm from. That is because I have lived in various places and sort of picked up things from here and there. For instance, I say "tornament" for Tournament where as all of my Texas family says "turniment". I picked that up living in Seattle for 4 years. I say "ant" for Aunt and my relatives say "ont". So then people pipe in and say she's stupid because she pronounces Nucular instead of Nuclear and all of a sudden she's not VP material? Give me a break!! Are we in High School?

Jump her case for any of her policies or past political moves but give me a darn break if all they can pick on her about is her damn vocabulary. That is pettiness at it's worst and would be like me not liking Michelle Obama for her big teeth!

In my opinion race, gender, marital status, number of children, dialect, etc, has no bearing on the ability to run this country and I wish people would stop stooping to this "media" level BS and focus on the real issues.

I got into a debate today over Obama's skin color! I was defending him! I don't even like him but it irritates me when people start saying we don't need a black president and blah blah blah. So don't think Palin is the only one I've been defending.

I'm just sick of people concentrating on these superficial things so they forget all about the real issues. The media does that on purpose to us. They derail our thinking!

We shouldn't let them do that. It's insulting.

We should show them that we are not going to fall for it but sadly many do. This thread is an example of that.

We shouldn't ever discuss the shoes a candidate is wearing, their accents, their sex or their race. They are so irrelevant!

But the media has an agenda and that is to keep dumbing us down so as long as we let them then I guess we get what we asked for.

Say what you want to about Pallin, but DC is filled with smooth talkin' (yea I left off the g) Ivy League MBA's & Attorneys that have run this country to the brink of bankrupcy. She may not be as polished as debater as Joe Biden, but what does an administrator do? They delegate to their subordinates to gather information so that they can make an informed decisions.

She has a proven track record of being an administrator. She, at this nano second, maybe behind the curve regarding every little detail that is or has been going on in DC, but that also makes all the more appealing for DC!!

What this country needs, now more than anything are LEADERS... NOT POLITICANS. God fearing moral leaders that are willing to stand up and change the status quo. Maybe that's why you found her "condescending "conversational" style " so offensive. Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying. She's sounds like the sheriff or police chief (whatever) in the movie Fargo. But remember one thing, she caught the bad guy!!!

We're so used to hearing the "gentlemen" in Washington tell us what we want to hear, that she does sound different... To me that is good!

I am really "shocked" to listen to all of you and your hard stances and actually being IN the "Real Estate" Business. If you were farmers, car mechanics and just good ole boy union factory workers I would understand.

Are you professionals not even interested in the "facts"? Have you not followed "all" the bias news media in an attempt to see what has actually been the root of an economic crash that has or in the process of destroying the industry we work in?...Selling Homes? Are you ignorant to the facts of ACORN, who they are, what they accomplished, how they grew so fast, how "our" government funds a $300M a year gorilla militant group to intimidate our banking industry and how our congress backed them and WHO the players are that backed ACORN...who TRAINED the ACORN workers...who Defended ACORN in court on their tactics?

Do you KNOW about all this, or do you simply not care and want to be blinded by political facts? Because I can assure you that it WILL come out at some point so that the angry Americans will know the root cause of our collapse.

David: Obviously you are a Rush Limbaugh loyalist by the comments that you have made on this blog yet you ask:

"Have you not followed 'all' the bias news media in an attempt to see what has actually been the root of an economic crash that has or in the process of destroying the industry we work in?...Selling Homes?"

I would suggest that you are doing much of the same in listening to one of the most biased, blatantly hypocritical, ideologically driven, intellectually void, infotainment talking head of our time.

As you've stated, "I am really 'shocked' to listen" to your viewpoint of evidently simply deducing our current economic mess to nothing more than ACORN.

Stewart - whom did I call a name? Certainly not you. Although I admit to calling the statement elitist crap.

And by your standards, I have you beat, I have been to over 30 countries so obviously that makes me more qualified, having not only traveled to many of these countries but to also have worked in them.

You have pre-judged every American without a passport, over 70% of them, as not having an interest in other countries, you have, in your own words stated

This is indicative of a small-minded person with an indifference to the rest of the world.

You have written to me

Bragging that you obtained your first Passport at age 47 isn't an "accomplishment" - rather I think it's reflective of your fear of exploring new things and a a desire to remain in your "comfort Zone".

when there was no bragging, just a statement of fact that I did not get my first passport until I was 47 and my mother didn't get hers until she was 50. She was certainly not small minded and indifferent to the rest of the world.

Most of the men and women that have fought or served overseas have not gotten passports. I guess they are all small minded and indifferent.

So, who has been doing the immature name calling?

Yes, I think that attitude is elitist.

Jay - travel abroad does not indicate a natural curiosity for the world, it just indicates that someone can afford to travel. Too many of those that do travel really don't care about the people, the economies, etc of those countries they travel to. They just want to get their pictures snapped at the Eiffel Tower.

How about the Boston Globe stating that Barney Frank's fingerprints are all over the financial crisis fiasco? Is the Boston Globe a Limbaugh loyalists, now?

Truth hurts, but to blame the republicans for actual liberal democrat interference of financial loan applicants is appalling at best.

None of you ever bring up Barney Frank, Christopher Dodd, ObAMA and his client ACORN which actually threatened lawsuits to banks if they did not loan money to minorities.

Facts are facts, this is not fingerpointing, this is a fact.

Your liberal defense of evil is disheartening at best.

Stewart, Jay, Roger ~ You are all world travelers, professionals, full of knowledge, but you do not have the courage to look at the facts because you are too liberallly minded ( yes, I put three L's there for you three).

I would fear to have any of you on a jury listening to any court case. You are not open to facts.

More information is coming out on this, for sure. And then you will all have to eat your words.

But then again, you'll somehow find a way to blame George Bush.

Sad state of affairs for America.

Roger...You obviously know a WHOLE LOT MORE THAN ME!

I see you live in the great state of California. I live in the little tiny state of Arkansas. We have a tiny $200 billion annual budget and just posted this week a state surplus of $20 million. We also produced that guy named...ugh...oh yeah, Clinton, that the democrats love so much.

Roger, I loved Clinton as well and not because he was an Arkansas, but because the guy was SMART. I would have liked him regardless whether he was republican OR democrat. The problem with people in this country is they get too hung up on the "Brand" of party rather than the PERSON.

But, being from the great state of California, that sets the stage for everything that happens for the rest of the country...the state with all the supreme wealth...all the "Movie Stars" and their vocal opinions on how to run the rest of the country and the state that is run by a democratic congress..the one that has the most liberal entitlement programs in the country..the one that everyone says is "second only to the U.S. government in size" which qualifies it's leaders for leading the rest of the country...

AND ALSO THE STATE THAT NOW IS BEGGING FOR A 7 BILLION DOLLAR BAILOUT FOR A SHORT TERM 30 DAY LOAN? I think a poll of Amercia might show that what California needs to do is just simply RAISE TAXES to pay for all your programs. You guys got the money. Obviously your state government has the answer and model for the rest of us.

Earl - Palin is not running on any Christian laurels, she is running on her record as mayor, governor, etc. as well as her political positions, some of which happen to be based upon her Christian belief.

Nicholas...you are so correct!

The TRUTH will surface, but unfortunately it will be after the election is over.

Jay- Sarah did great and proved to America that she can handle the task of VP by her stand on the issues. Biden showed us why he got less than 5% of the votes in the democrat primary. He is wrong to support higher taxes on Realtors. Wrong on the War on Terror, abortion and as most people in Delaware know, he is a mean condescending little man.

Mike ~ Thank you for setting the record straight. Governor Palin is not running on her Christian laurels. The fact that she is a Christian drives liberals mad. That is anti-Christian rhetoric which is more and more accepted in this country.

Obama and Biden are so called Christans. The fact that they do not adhere to Christian morals should raise questions.

Obama's voting record of voting four times not to save babies born alive after a botched abortion is not only Christian, it is barbaric. Most people would run to save a dog that was run over by a car. But Obama would not even allow doctors or nurses to ease the pain of a crying child.

How far from Judeo- Christian principles have we abandoned since liberalism has arisen in America in the 1960's to the present day?

Now Biden states Obama and Biden are against gay marriage. That should be interesting.

Nicholas....Biden and Obama only said they were against the term "Marriage" for gays, but FOR all the rights as those married have, so they have that block locked up.

Nick - I am not going to judge Biden, Obama or Palin on their Christianity. To judge is up to a higher power. I do believe Obama's position is definitely wrong and not in line Christian doctrine.

The Boston Globe reported today...

The roots of this crisis go back to the Carter administration. That was when government officials, egged on by left-wing activists, began accusing mortgage lenders of racism and "redlining" because urban blacks were being denied mortgages at a higher rate than suburban whites.

The pressure to make more loans to minorities (read: to borrowers with weak credit histories) became relentless. Congress passed the Community Reinvestment Act, empowering regulators to punish banks that failed to "meet the credit needs" of "low-income, minority, and distressed neighborhoods." Lenders responded by loosening their underwriting standards and making increasingly shoddy loans. The two government-chartered mortgage finance firms, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, encouraged this "subprime" lending by authorizing ever more "flexible" criteria by which high-risk borrowers could be qualified for home loans, and then buying up the questionable mortgages that ensued.

Nicholas: I appreciate the usual criticism and name calling labels. My "Limbaugh loyalist" comment was based on David's thoughts and complete agreement over Limbaugh's simple, yet vulgar, comments.

Secondly, merely pointing out only one potential aspect of obviously a much larger issue leaves a lot to be desired in consideration of David's criticism for the rest of us (the rest of us with different points of view anyhow) for doing the same. After all, David was concerned that all of the professionals here are being duped by the obvious reference to the "liberal" media yet he listens to the most biased form of "conservative" media.

Making such comments are easy because they are simple but don't come even close to telling the full story. We can pick and choose all day long members on both sides of the isle that have their hands in this financial pie.

By the way, I'm not a world traveler but, nonetheless, thank you for the compliment as I wish I was as undoubtedly I would have a much larger world of experience as what Stewart and Mike have experienced. I think it's great for anyone who has the opportunity to do so.

As for the rest of your comments. You are entitled to your opinion and you may disagree with me but to insinuate that I stray from the facts would be an obvious misrepresentation as anyone who has read any of my comments on any of these blogs knows otherwise.

As for George Bush - he is our president and our country is in this mess. He told all of us many times that the buck stops with him. So be it!

But his fingerprints are all over this fiasco. Time and time again, Frank insisted that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were in good shape. Five years ago, for example, when the Bush administration proposed much tighter regulation of the two companies, Frank was adamant that "these two entities, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, are not facing any kind of financial crisis." When the White House warned of "systemic risk for our financial system" unless the mortgage giants were curbed, Frank complained that the administration was more concerned about financial safety than about housing.

Now that the bubble has burst and the "systemic risk" is apparent to all, Frank blithely declares: "The private sector got us into this mess." Well, give the congressman points for gall. Wall Street and private lenders have plenty to answer for, but it was Washington and the political class that derailed this train. If Frank is looking for a culprit to blame, he can find one suspect in the nearest mirror.

David: Please don't put words into my mouth. I never said I knew more than you. Not once!

I voiced my opinions and comments based on comments you made.

You voiced your opinion on comments about Clinton, California, and a host of other points that had nothing to do with anything that I said anywhere here in this blog but you do a good job trying to attribute your comments to me.

Nicholas: You're right. Barney had all the power in the world to make all of this happen. The presidential powers have been diminished to nothing more than one congressional seat.

I guess we all have to hand it to Barney!

Mike ~ We have to not judge men in this life, but we do judge their actions. We must judge those who vote for murder and get them out or keep them out of office.

Biden looked verrrry presidential while Palin had that "aww shucks" thing going on. Sorry but in times of crisis like this I need more from my VP than eye winks. Man but wouldn't Palin make a great realtor!!! She has Realtor written all over her.

Roger ~ I just deleted my comment to you asking why you didn't answer my question.

But I am still baffled why you say I am name calling.

Show me where I called you or Stewart or Jay a name other than liberal.

Why does that offend liberals to be called what they are?

You constantly say I call you names, but where is that name calling?

Nicholas: Without taking this posting any further off track, anyone who has read your comments knows that your use of "liberal" is simply an attack. I've been the brunt of many of your attacks - I'm not complaining!

Roger...your tone seems to have settled down a bit. But you are WRONG in accusing me of being some kind of "Rush Baby" just because of one simple comment. You're JUDGING. You're ASSUMING I listen to Rush all the time. Is it possible I "Heard" that Rush just said that? You're also WRONG in assuming I am filled with right wing ideology by listening to "only one side".

For your information Roger, I have been a broker for 33+ years and owned my own businesses for the last 28 years. I started my residential company 11 years ago and have operated out of my home with 5 satellite agents also working from their home. I am in the top 20% of agents in my metro area and have zero bricks and mortar to support being a home office. I operate in an extremely profitable fashion and having a home office I watch CNN 80% of the time until Jack Cafferty comes on and then I have to grab my Barff Bucket. The balance of the time I watch Fox. I want the TRUTH, not any left or right wing unfounded accusations.

Facts speak for themselves and I am a seeker of "facts". There are a lot of people I know...including my own dad and my brother in law that swears that the problem we have in the country is that the REPUBLICANS HAVE THE MAJORITY IN THE SENATE. LOL. Can that not be a provable fact? You can't convince him otherwise. LOL

I am ONLY interested in Facts and the Truth and it appears that Nicholas is also one of those people...he states facts and takes the time to provide provable references. I commend you!

Jay...you're awful quiet here...you just sittin back and sucking up rain points arn't ya? LOL

David: I didn't call you a "Rush Baby" either. The comment I made was "Rush loyalist" and it was in response to your praise of Rush and your ACORN comments which have been pushed heavily by both Rush and FOX (Hanity).

As for the rest of your accomplishments. That's great. I'm 34 and own two businesses the first of which I started roughly five years ago, etc., etc., etc. To be honest, I'm not quite sure what any of that alludes to. You can be financially successful and business savvy without having a deep regard for the facts, values, morality, fairness, or any other decent measure.

As for who you listen to and what you watch, only you know and I'm not going to enter into a banter on the subject. When you directly quote Rush in full agreement saying he put it best today .... what more should one infer? I'm not sure how anyone can listen to such an individual if you're actually interested in the facts considering he slanders those who share in his same follies.

The facts are much further reaching than the information simply cherry-picked by Nicholas with blame to go on both sides of the isle as I've already stated.

However, we've had a Republican president who had full control of the House and Senate for the first six years of the administration. Did they not have the power or the will to trump Barney? If not, why do you run your business? Why don't you just let one of your associates take the reigns?

Roger, I think "fact finding" is important which can only be obtained by looking at all possible/potential sources. Someone that fully understands the value of "facts" put it best by saying...

"As we are in full swing of the presidential campaign, it's amazing to me the amount of information presented that is in large part inaccurate or at least an acute misrepresentation of the facts.
In many instances, as long as the misrepresentation bolsters the position of the candidate that you are supporting it will be cheered and widely accepted unless someone calls out the inconsistency.
Isn't this type of ignorance and blatant disregard for reality one of the main culprits responsible for our current state of affairs in our country today ... on many fronts?
If your candidate is really worth voting for is it really necessary to misrepresent the other candidate's position?
An OPINION is one thing a FACT is another ... there is a difference!"

David: Thanks for promoting my blog - http://activerain.com/blogsview/694969/Are-Facts-Important-Anymore!

I'm now completely confused on what you are insinuating here. What facts am I ignoring? Are you talking about the facts provided to us from Nicholas that I acknowledged and didn't contend?

Again, there are other much bigger contributing issues than what Nicholas has presented which have had more dire and further reaching implications on this financial mess. Since we are quoting from other blogs, here are comments (in brief) that I have recently made on another post (Nicholas is well of aware of these comments):

"Mary: To begin with it's hard to have a discussion with someone who wants to blame Clinton for everything that is wrong in the world. If everything is Clinton's fault than why even have leaders anymore? Let's just throw our hands in the air and give up because we will never be able to return from the insinuated disaster of the Clinton presidency.

I'm not quite sure what fact you are referring to in regards to "Clinton and the subprime issue". Are you referring to his response to the "The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999"? The same Phil Gramm that has served as McCain's co-chairman and financial advisor? It's easy to simply point a finger at "the other guy".

Unfortunately, the financial mess that Americans are confronted with are nowhere near as cut and dry as you would like to make it out to be. Would you say that Bush's "America's Home Ownership Challenge" policies helped exacerbate the issue too? A bit curious he would support such a policy in lieu of knowing the ultimate dangers of Clinton's financial policies:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/09/20040902-5.html "

Since I'm a bit slow (my own acknowledment), it would be great to get some clarity on the point that you are trying to make.

My point is Roger is only that you DO make very good perfect sense in many things you say and I agree 100% with your blog post on facts.

But things like "After all, David was concerned that all of the professionals here are being duped by the obvious reference to the "liberal" media yet he listens to the most biased form of "conservative" media." That's what I call ASSUMPTIONS and not FACTS.

If you'd said "After all, David seemed to be concerned that all of the professionals here are being duped by liberal media views, yet I hope he's not suggesting with his reference to Rush as being more factual since Rush appears to be on the opposite spectrum"

Now that I would agree with and think less that someone was putting words in my mouth.

David: Thank you for your compliment. I don't back off of my statement because this is exactly what you said:

"Are you professionals not even interested in the "facts"? Have you not followed "all" the bias news media in an attempt to see what has actually been the root of an economic crash that has or in the process of destroying the industry we work in?...Selling Homes? Are you ignorant to the facts of ACORN, who they are, what they accomplished, how they grew so fast, how "our" government funds a $300M a year gorilla militant group to intimidate our banking industry and how our congress backed them and WHO the players are that backed ACORN...who TRAINED the ACORN workers...who Defended ACORN in court on their tactics"

You did insinuate that those on the other side were being duped by the media by not talking or being aware of ACORN. Rush and FOX have been giving ACORN serious play, more so than any other outlet that I am aware of.

You may not listen to Rush on a daily basis, FOX, or any other conservative media outlet but on the day being discussed, you listened to Rush and you had nothing but praise for his vulgar comment, and it's tough to argue that Rush is not the most biased version of "conservative" media (perhaps Hanity, Savage, or O'Reilly) could give him a run for his money.

Roger, you're not sounding Objective again. I was under the understanding that "facts" originated from opposing views on any subject and investigated to a point where "FACTS" surfaced from all sources that I CORRECTLY referred to as "ALL THE BIAS NEWS MEDIA".

The FACT that Fox has among "many" reported this information is to be commended since the obvious "left wing bias" media has not as yet...but once Obama wins, they won't have to worry about hurting "their guy" and won't mind exposing all these facts. I've SEEN media Video on ACORN...and I've personally had dealings with them. Maybe you're lucky and haven't had that experience.

Hey Callie. Why can't Liberals answer a simple question without getting snippy.

What is good about Liberalism?

Carl LOL

Carl, why can't Palin answer a simple question without reading notes/talking points? Why did Palin say Katie Couric's questions were "annoying"?

To see a complitation of Palin reading her notes/talking points watch this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ7Fp6QH150.

Hi David: I'm not going to go round and round with you on my comments. My opinions presented here in regards to my criticism of your comments were based on actual comments that you made. Again, clear for anyone to read to make their own determination.

In my opinion, facts originate out of reality. I would suggest that opposing views originate from our biases which ultimately filter our evaluation of the "facts". There is only one reality. Since we get information through a filter of people with bias (we all have biases) we should do our best to remove our biases, examine the information at hand, and present the information as close to the circumstances in which they were made.

When you praised Limbaugh's vulgar comments I don't think I made a leap to gander your bias as it is not tough to gander my bias. I believe, as I had in my blog, that we have a responsibility to others who are formulating their opinions to present the circumstances regardless of our ideology even if it doesn't support our ideology. It's better to be informed than right if we truly care about making our country a better place.

I'll take you at your word on "ALL THE BIAS NEWS MEDIA" even though you clearly presented conservative views and I'm not familiar with any conservative who doesn't think that, outside of FOX, our media has a "liberal" bias.

I don't think FOX should be commended for ACORN unless they want to make as much to do about some of the other items that share in the blame for helping to create this financial mess. FOX doesn't make these comparisons because it doesn't support their ideology. If you bring up other causes, they return to smaller items such as ACORN. Are there facts to support their argument, sure. Does their facts on one issue tell the entire story or does it taint one to believe that this is the epicenter of an obviously larger issue?

FOX should be recognized for their editorial presence not for presenting the news as "Fair and Balanced". It's an insult to even suggest such with prominent individuals as Karl Rove and the likes who have either graduated from this administration to go to FOX or have left FOX to serve this administration.

As for the "liberal media" bias it's a tough sell considering Rupert Murdock's influence. We've had a lot of Republican presidents in recent history, Barack Obama is considered an elitist, Reverend Wright was in all of our living rooms for well over a week, Bush and the republicans have had one of the toughest eight years in recent memory (if I'm to be generous) yet this election is still a race with McCain and the Republicans promoting change. I'd say they're not faring to bad. The outright criticism for Palin is simply because Palin has too many answers that, forgetting your ideology, don't make any sense or show an obvious lack of knowledge as many conservatives will agree.

I wrote a post a few days back regarding the genesis of many of todays current housing & financial problems being the signing of the Community Reinvestment Act in 1977 by Jimmy Carter and it's significant expansion under Bill Clinton in 1995. About a dozen people read it aNd commented. Seems like everybody's just so damn concerned about Sarah Pahlins accent and phraseology they don't have time for real issues. So Rev. Wright got his week in the spotlight and Bill Ayers got a few days and Acorn got a brief mention and that's all that is worth while Palin's grammar is fodder for Saturday Night Dead and ongoing media commentary? You conveniently ignore comments from Barney Frank, Maxine Waters, Franklin Raines and others regarding the lack of a looming financial crisis and impugn the people who were trying to caution us, including John McCain. I don't have to listen to Rush or Hannity for my opinions, but I do have to listen to them if I want to hear information I will never hear in the main street media. Objective journalism has indeed died during the course of this election.

Finally I did another post awhile back cautioning people to look to the great state of Caw Lee 4 Kneeya for an example of where this country will be if we combine a tax and spend executive with a tax & spend legislature. We consistently spend more than we take in, we have mortgaged our future for the next several generations, we can't build roads or repair our levees or generate enough power but we can outlaw plastic bags and mylar balloons and release criminals early because we can't house them. If you want to see what America looks like after 8 years of Obama, look no further than California today. Good luck suckas.

Hi Chris: Wow, you offer nothing more than pure rhetoric yet ask everyone to give you examples of what Obama has done to make a difference as if you would be willing to listen.

Perhaps you can enlighten us to Obama's little secret: "If Americans knew what Obama (I think you meant Obama's) history was and his real plans this election would not be close."

Please tell us the story, enlighten us with your facts. Hollywood is so powerful now that it enables average folk like Obama, a man who has "never done a damn think (I think you meant thing) to make a difference", to earn presidential nominations.

Your hatred is profound!

It is ALL ABOUT INTEGRITY, WHAT DO THEY BELIEVE? Obama has voted to set aside babies to die from failed abortions, The abortions didn't kill them , they are breathing and crying and they are taken to another room to die. Should give you a clue about who he is. Is infanticide practiced in American - yes- and he strongly supports it. If we don't protect our most vulnerable, then all other issues pale in comparison.

LOL...unbelievable. Gene, you tell it like it is. Chris...you're a realists. Kathleen...you hit the nail on the head.

Roger...you're "blinded" from Reality. As Gene said...If you want to know what America will look like in 8 years with Obama...look no further than CA today. You might ought to get the jump on selling Bailout Bonds.

I hate to be a pessimist, but if you want to know what America will look like in 8 years with Palin... look no further than Chernobyl.

Hi David: I must admit you got me. I never saw it coming. I would simply argue that I am "blinded" by your reality. I will never turn to people such as Hanity and Limbaugh to get facts as Gene admits he does and you've supported his statement quite definitively.

I guess my comments weren't too far off the mark when I alluded to your media bias, perhaps the 80% on CNN might be a touch on the high side?

As for California and our Governor he never got my vote nor did Bush. My reality is hostage to those who supported the two and what a great job they've done.

Hi David: One more thought, I'm a bit surprised, since you are so concerned with finding the facts, that you so warmly embrace Chris and Kathleen's comments. Similar hate speak that you praised Limbaugh for. I'm beginning to discern a pattern.

Roger, I'm a fairly predictable person lol. Can't say I would have voted for the "Terminator" either if I lived in CA....not sure what Bush has to do with CA though. As I said somewhere...I'm more for the "Person" rather than the "Party". I am also a firm believer that the only way things really get fixed is for the situation to be broken and beyond fixing...crash, get the attention of everyone, and then the people come to their senses and employ the smart people come in and fix it without politics involved.

I don't recall any "politics" involved when the people of NY and the rest of the country came to the aid of NY on 911. The U.S. governments cocaine-like spending addiction will require an "Economic 911" before you and I join sides to solve the problem.

Gene, I envy your freedom to post your rascist diatribesm using your real name and contact info, all over activerain....on your own blog, and on this one....do you really think doing this is good for you business and reputation, beyond your little audience, here on this site?

It isn't even true....just republican party talking points that strike a particular chord with you. Here is some info to muddy the view of some who might otherwise be persuaded by your attempt to shift the blame to "the other"....the MINORITIES and the demo-crats....of 30 yeara ago.... more recently there is this:

Lenders Try to Fend Off Laws on Subprime Loans Published: April 4, 2001

By RICHARD A. OPPEL JR. AND PATRICK MCGEEHAN
Published: April 4, 2001

....Officials from large lenders including Countrywide Credit, one of the nation's largest mortgage lenders, and Bank of America gathered in Dallas three months ago for what was billed as a ''predatory lending summit.'' Participants mapped strategies, such as creating a ''swat team'' of lobbyists to crisscross the country to defeat these measures.

The attendance list underscored the fact that big investment and retail banks are active in subprime lending, either by financing lenders or owning their own units, like EquiCredit, a unit of Bank of America.

Subprime loans are typically made to borrowers with weaker credit, and they carry high interest rates and fees -- for example, a 13 percent interest rate for a home mortgage, versus current prevailing rates of about 7 percent. ....

A Hands-Off Policy on Mortgage Loans

Published: July 15, 2005

.....The volume of subprime mortgages has soared from about $35 billion in 1994 to about $530 billion in 2004 - more than 20 percent of all new mortgages last year. That growth helped propel the homeownership rate to a record 69 percent in 2004. The foreclosure rate on subprime mortgages remains modest, only 3.5 percent in the first quarter of 2005, but that is nine times the rate for prime borrowers.

The Bush administration and Republican lawmakers in Congress are seeking to pre-empt state laws on predatory lending, saying that consumers and lenders need a coherent set of national rules.

But many states, including New York and North Carolina, contend that the federal guidelines are weaker than their own and that federal agencies are not equipped to handle consumer complaints from 50 states..."

So Gene, it isn't so simple as blaming "the blcaks and Jimmy Carter"....so why don't you stop doing it?

Jay - your comment "but if you want to know what America will look like in 8 years with Palin... look no further than Chernobyl" displays either ignorance or just plain hatred. Either way it is certainly a discredit to any claimt you may make that your posts and comments are rational.

Ed - when are you going to quit hiding behind anonymity. Nowhere did Gene make any statement approaching the racist comment you are attributing to him. As for Countrywide - who got the sweetheart deals? Do the names Johnson, Konrad and Dodd ring a bell?

Who won the debate?

CBS: 46 percent thought Biden won, while 21 percent gave Republican Sarah Palin NBC:

NBC: Joe Biden 76.1% 238,221 votes / 20.4% Sarah Palin 63,942 votes / 3.5% Tie 10,868 votes

The CNN/Opinion Research Corp. said 51 percent of those polled thought Biden did the best job, while 36 percent thought Palin did the best job.

W.Post: 66% Biden/ 29% Palin / 5% Tie

Gene and Nicholas, are you still not convinced that you are inaccurate in just about every political opinion you embrace and post, and that it is entirely possible that what you stand for is killing the future of the country?

The greater quality of life, enjoyed by a much higher ratio of the population, exists in France as a result of what the politics of the people there are , and by the results achieved from voting those beliefs....and you dismiss all of it....the model universal health care in France, the worker protections, living minimum wage level, half the per capita poverty level, highest GDP in the world per number of hours worked, a strong currency valuation, stronger balance of trade, more foreign tourist visits to France than to the US.....you dismiss all of it....brand it as "xocialist"....as if it was a swear word....

....even as you work to deflect, distract, and cover up what you actually have supported....but I am wrong to describe your agenda as akin to a disease.....one that is killing our country?

President Calls for Expanding Opportunities to Home Ownership

June 17, 2002
Remarks by the President on Homeownership
St. Paul AME Church

.....That's why I've challenged the industry leaders all across the country to get after it for this goal, to stay focused, to make sure that we achieve a more secure America, by achieving the goal of 5.5 million new minority home owners. I call it America's home ownership challenge.

And let me talk about some of the progress which we have made to date, as an example for others to follow. First of all, government sponsored corporations that help create our mortgage system -- I introduced two of the leaders here today -- they call those people Fannie May and Freddie Mac, as well as the federal home loan banks, will increase their commitment to minority markets by more than $440 billion. (Applause.) I want to thank Leland and Franklin for that commitment. It's a commitment that conforms to their charters, as well, and also conforms to their hearts.

This means they will purchase more loans made by banks after Americans, Hispanics and other minorities, which will encourage homeownership. Freddie Mac will launch 25 initiatives to eliminate homeownership barriers. Under one of these, consumers with poor credit will be able to get a mortgage with an interest rate that automatically goes down after a period of consistent payments. (Applause.)

Fannie Mae will establish 100 partnerships with faith-based organizations that will provide home buyer education and help increase homeownership for their congregations. I love the partnership. (Applause.)

The Enterprise Foundation and the local initiative support corporation will increase efforts to build and rehabilitate more homes in inner cities at affordable prices by working with local community development corporations.

In my home state of Texas, Enterprise helped turn the once decaying ideal neighborhood of Dallas into a vibrant community, by building homes that were sold to residents at affordable prices. The National Association of Home Builders will team up with local officials, home builder associations and community groups in 20 of our nation's largest housing markets, to focus on how to eliminate barriers, and encourage homeownership.

The Neighborhood Reinvestment Corporation will dramatically expand financial and home buyer education efforts to 380,000 minority families. The Neighborhood Housing Services of America will raise $750 million to promote homeownership initiatives in many communities. We're beginning to use the Internet better, so that realtors all across the country will be able to call up programs all designed to help minority home buyers understand what's available, what's possible, and what to avoid. The National Realtors Association will create a central data bank of affordable housing programs, which will be made available to agents, real estate agents, to help people......

... It means that we unleash the faith-based programs to help change people's hearts, which will help change their lives. (Applause.) It means we use the mighty muscle of the federal government in combination with state and local governments to encourage owning your own home. That's what that means......"

I know....I know....Jimmy Carter is to blame, with the 1977 CRA.....when sweeter lending terms to the disadvantages were a tiny sum.....when no one could envision how the sum would grow, or what the riska might be.....

Mike & Gene ~ Ed the curios sort likes to threaten any contrary views with bigotry and hatred. Therefore, we should all be concerned about fact finding and speaking the truth and be labeled by liberals like Ed as bigots and racists.

How can someone with a bit of intelligence ignore the facts that Barney Frank, Christopher Dodd and Obama with his ACORN threatened the banks to give loans to minorities and also to expand to those who did not qualify that brought down the house of cards.

Government interference which is socialism brought this upon us, and Obama is still spewing out that he wants more socialism in his administration.

When are we going to learn the lesson that socialism and communism has failed in every country it took over.

History repeats itself to those who fail to study it or ignore the facts.

Which one of one fits the above description, curious ED?

Mike....

This what Gene posted:

>"I wrote a post a few days back regarding the genesis of many of todays current housing & financial problems being the signing of the Community Reinvestment Act in 1977 by Jimmy Carter and it's significant expansion under Bill Clinton in 1995..."<

I already informed Gene that what he was doing was related to racial bigotry, but, as you can see, it has not dissuaded him.....so, consider:

Emma Coleman Jordan
October 3, 2008
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10032008/watch2.html

"BILL MOYERS: There've been a lot of voices on cable channels recently blaming this bubble, this crisis, the cause of all of this catastrophe we're in right now, on poor people who took out mortgages that they couldn't afford to buy home they wanted. They shouldn't have. Watch these clippings and tell me what you think about them.

LAURA INGRAHAM: 1995 when Bill Clinton decided to tell, you know, Robert Rubin to rewrite the rules that govern the Community Reinvestment Act and push all these institutions to lend to minority communities, many very risky loans, that was a noble idea, perhaps, but that certainly wasn't following free-market principles.

NEIL CAVUTO: I don`t remember a clarion call that said, Fannie and Freddie are a disaster. Loaning to minorities and risky folks is a disaster.

LARRY KUDLOW: It's time for the Congress, Republicans and Democrats, to stop encouraging, exhorting, and forcing banks to make low income loans with no documentation. Stop that. The community reinvestment act which was passed in the mid nineties, which was extended in the early 2000s, literally pushed these lenders to make low income loans.

BILL MOYERS: Lending to minorities and risky people. Do you see this, are they seeing this as issues of race and class?

EMMA COLEMAN JORDAN: Absolutely. And it's a cynical manipulation. It's reprehensible. And, in the worse tradition of Lee Atwater and the Willie Horton ad, to use race as a wedge issue to make people who pay their mortgages believe that the people who are getting the benefit of the 700 billion dollars, that we're being asked to pay, are poor, minority people who caused the crisis.

This is unconscionable. This problem is not a problem that was caused by the Community Reinvestment Act. The data is very clear that the Community Reinvestment Act loans were being offered in a way to people that were much more responsible and had none of the characteristics of default that are being attributed in this discussion. And what this does is to say, this problem is a problem that was caused by black people.

And it means that it gives an opportunity to bring up that old wedge. But I think the people in the country are smarter today. I just don't think it's going to fly. I think that people understand that the enemy is not a person who got a home loan and was tricked into getting that loan by a fast-talking broker who originated the loan but that the problem was the securitization process, the high leveraging that Wall Street was doing, the lack of regulation."

The rest of the world protests, over and over, but....it is your strategy....the wedge issues, race, class, sexual orientation, and the deliberate feminization of male opposition candidates. If you can't feminize them, you paint them as elitists.....tiresome....do you even see it when it is put in front of you?

It's out there..it's part and parcel of republican politics..so stop ignoring it: .......... Books

Nick - it doesn't take much of an intellect and even less integrity to twist anothers words into a racist comment. Often it only takes disagreement on policy, or maybe voting for the other candidate.

Ed - again, when are you going to stop hiding behind your anonymity?

Yes, Gene did refer to Carter's CRA. I have also. It was the genesis of developing the lending programs to those who could not meet then standard requirements for home loans. It's several iterations continued to reduce those requirements and pressure institutions to making those more risky loans.

To state facts is not related to racial bigotry, or any kind of bigotry. To stifle the truth because it might might have an impact, whether postive or negative, on any (designated) minority is racist. What Gene posted, in that sentence, had absolutely no relation, inference, innuendo, hint, etc of racial bigotry. In this case, bigtry was in the eye of the beholder.

For all of you that don't know the INFAMOUS "Ed Lefevre (curious sort)" you can pretty much just "skip" anything this psycho nut posts. I wondered how long it would take him to infiltrate this particular blog as he does all others, anonymously hiding his real identity. He obviously has a high level of anxiety and attempts to threaten bloggers to stop blogging.

I think he was probably trained by ACORN and they fired him and he's probably now a member of ELF, the Earth Liberation Front, burning down homes in the mountains.

Mike....what is it with you? Why do you go in the opposite direction of understanding and sensitivity in reaction to what I am telling you? Why do all the republican talking heads do this, too? What I am saying is fact....it is etched in history....the continuation of the republican "southern strategy"....race baiting and deliberate class division....Wiki is open sourced....anyone who can back a claim can edit the entries....anyone can make an edit to remove material they can show is not supported by sound sources....If you know you are right and Bill Moyers and I are incorrect, why not go an remove this from republican strategist and key political advisor to George HW Bush, Lee Atwater's wiki entry:

Lee Atwater - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Atwater: You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.” By 1968 you can't say “nigger”—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater

Lee Atwater was also a key political advisor to Ronald Reagan:Reagan Takes Aim At 'Forced Busing'

Pay-Per-View - Washington Post - ProQuest Archiver - Jun 3, 1976
Republican presidential can. didate Ronald Reagan today called on Congress to outlaw "forced busing," and said he favors freedom of choice in educational ...

Why Mike and Nicholas, do you and the conservative noise maching whose taking points you regurgitate in your posts on this site, continue to enthusiastically embrace this strategy.....why?

Say....David? Nice job of taking on my points, head on, and refuting them with well sourced citations of your own....Ohhhh....wait a minute....that wasn't how you responded.....was it? You chose the low road....unsubstantiated personal slurs....is it because you cannot respond to my actual points and the material supporting them?

Our exchanges offer all of us an opportunity to take stock of the opinions we post....are they supported, can we defend them,,,,can we learn from each other....or do we do it, "your way", David? It's juvenile....

Sorry Ed...I confess, I didn't read one word of all your BABBLE...Learned a while back it was a waste.

So who is the totally anonymous person? Is that still you Ed? It appears you are the one who has the problem, seeing every difference of opinion as racism.

Quit being a coward, step out of anonymity.

Oh, and to answer the question, it isn't that I am not understanding and insensitive to what you are putting forth. It's just that I know you are wrong.

By the way, it was the republicans who got the 1964 Civil Rights Act passed. It was the republicans who got the 1965 Voting Rights Act passed. It was the democrats who tried to block both of them, led in the Senate by that good ol' boy, former KKK member from West Virginia. Talk about Southern Strategy.

Mike...trust me...this anonymous "ED" is a nut and a waste to time to even communicate with as I've seen in many other blogs. Once you get him started he's doing Copy & Paste from WikiWhaho and filling up page after page. His comments will get Bigger and Bigger.

Mike......(sigh......this is a seemingly impossible task, but one last try....) The former, recent chairman of what I assume is the political party you more closely identified, apologized for the party doing exactly what I described: (Wouldn't, a heightened level of sensitivity be what shoild follow a sincere apology? I do not see any sensitivity....just race baiting as usual,,,,,with the irrelevant, CRA/Jimmy Carter talking points BLITZ)

RNC Chief to Say It Was 'Wrong' to Exploit Racial Conflict for Votes

It was called "the southern strategy," started under Richard M. Nixon in 1968, and described Republican efforts to use race as a wedge issue -- on matters ...
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071302342.html -

Mike, in terms of hatred - yes, I would hate to think of the prospect of Palin being sworn in as VP. Palin's church has taught that "end times" might be in her lifetime. If you believe the end of the world is near (as Palin probably does) - it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Therefore, Palin won't think twice about starting World War 3.

Nicholas, your comment included the expression - History repeats itself to those who fail to study it or ignore the facts. Does this not apply to Palin? Based on her interviews and debate, Palin doesn't understand history or current events.

So, Palin doesn't understand history and probably believes she'll see the end of the world. Again 8 years of Palin would likely result in a worldwide Chernobyl.

Now Jay...that makes perfect sense. Cudos. Thank God Obama subscribes to Jeremiah Wrights philosophy and ACORN militia community activists tactics...that will accomplish much in congress. Once we can get rid of all the "God" stuff then we can reprint the money and change our name to the United Socialists States of America. The sooner the better!

Jay ~ You are just too much of a Christian basher to understand that every church age believes Christ will return in their lifetime. Jesus said He shall return for a people who is actually looking for Him to return.

But that is the faith of the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not just Sarah Palin's church.

You are saying to me that any Christian is not qualified to hold government office who believes that Christ may return in their lifetime?

Then you just disqualified George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Ronald Reagan and if you want books to prove these people believed it I will furnish it for you.

But somehow I think it with be a fruitless exchange.

Sometimes you scare me Jay Allen, you really do.

Nicholas, I was raised in a Christian - Methodist Church. No one I ever spoke to and never in any sermon was there any suggestion stated or implied that Jesus would return anytime soon - much less in "our" lifetime.

Furthermore, Palin believes in witchcraft! Read about it - Good News, Palin is not a Witch!

Jay - you are grasping at straws, both on Chernobyl and witchcraft.

There is no evidence that Palin believes in witchcraft. But so what, many presidents have had various beliefs and superstitions. I am going to guess that all the wicans might be upset at people that don't believe in witchcraft.

I have been to Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, and many other Christian churches. In each I have heard about the endtimes and prophecy. We know not the hour or the day......

Your thought process impresses me less every day.

I did not pay much attenmtion to this Jay as I thought it was silly, but when i saw Mike comment I thought I'd peek - witchcraft? Man Mike is right - clutching at straws!

Mike, to put it blatantly, many people are not voting for Obama because they believe he is the anti-Christ. Do you have this belief? I do not believe anyone running in this election is the anti-Christ.

However, from what I have read and watched, Obama is much less likely than Palin to put this country at risk for a nuclear war. Why?... because she is not a student of history. I know he's not on my side of this issue, but as our friend, Nicholas Goglucci, reminded us earlier, "history repeats itself to those who fail to study it or ignore the facts."

You're questioning my thought process? Your narrow-mindedness and inability to see beyond what you assume about others is unimpressive.

Jay - I agree with you that history repeats itself - that's why the mere thought of putting an appeaser in the White House should be repelled by all clear thinking Americans. Obama is a Neville Chamberlain - the result will be the same.

Simon, Obama will likely lose a couple of states because he was photographed wearing clothes like a Somali elder (which Limbaugh fans said was Obama in Muslim clothes) during a visit in August 2006 to Africa.

The GOP/Limbaugh fabricated this story about Obama. I have commented on a video that shows Palin being blessed to be free from witchcraft while running for governor. When the Obama picture came out earlier this year, did you and others in the GOP say it was grasping at straws to say the picture proved he was a Muslim?

Jay - actually yes I did. I hate when I see people use "Hussein" as a stick to beat him with. here are probably quite literally a million reasons not to vote for him. His ethinicty and religion are not two of them - which brings me back to Neville Chamberlain!

Simon, Obama will not repeat the appeasement policies of Chamberlain - Obama has learned from history. Palin would not know the name Neville Chamberlain.

Simon, I must be getting tired! I know your arguments are more rational than that - I apologize for putting you in that group. Anyway, I referenced Chamberlain in my last comment.

I would like to jump in here not for the sake of joining your debate or argument but I am a memberof Lodge 22 of The masonic temple. George Washington is a renouned Master Mason.

We are men who believe in the brotherhood of man and are firmly rooted in the Constitution of the United States. It means becoming a better person while helping to improve the quality of life for others. It means forming deep and lasting friendships that transcend the boundaries of race, religion and culture, as well as those of geography.

Masons believe in a Supreme being but not even close to the tradition of today's evangelical christians especially the return of your leader Jesus.

Please do not dishonor the memory of one of the greatest founding Fathers and Master Mason of all by stating he was a christian. President Washington was a firm believer in the constituation and that a man's religion if he had one was not a subject to be spoken of in public.

Jay ~ John Wesley founded the Methodist Church. He was a revivalist in which I have studied very closely. His writings included the second coming of Christ...especially in his sermon called The Great Assize. YOU SHOULD LOOK IT UP SOMETIME. Or you'll sound like Obama sitting in his church for twenty years and not hearing a siingle sermon by Rev. Wright.

Nicholas, believe what you write... you essentially stated that Obama hasn't noticed any sermons by Wright. Therefore, he was/is not influenced by his sermons. This means that Rev. Wright needs to be removed from the list of reasons why to not vote for Obama.

OCT

2008

Well, this is some weird and wacky stuff (Carson would be proud and have a field day). After reading through this post and subsequent comments, I've come to the conclusion that it isn't just our media that is bias... it is us, their true representative.

If you supported McCain/Palin going in... She probably 'won' in your book.

If you supported Obama/Biden going in... He probably 'won' in your book.

While I suppose I could be accused of not taking a stance here; I will. We lack a legitimate 3rd Party, but I don't want to play with ideals... I'll talk about the reality of the situation as I see it.

Biden came off much statelier. Sarah came off much more as a down to earth person that can truly identify with the common man/woman. Both McCain & Biden are career politicians at this point (civil duty, not an occupation for you constitutional types out there). Mrs. Palin and Mr. Obama are the fresh faces on both respective tickets. In that, I can see the appeal to each particular party affiliation. As debates go, Palin probably lost against Biden. It's hard to measure such a subjective means of definition, but that was my take after watching two folks who influence lives. I'll also say that Mr. McCain probably won the first debate against Mr. Obama... in similar fashion.

While I appreciate religious affiliations being brought into the mix, I think we sometimes forget that our own morals & values our.... OUR OWN. While most of us will agree that such things as rape, murder, thievery, a Yanni re-make, and the like are reprehensible... let's not forget that there has been a heck of a lot of bloodshed over religion through the ages. When blood is shed, something ain't isn't right.

In closing (I love to annoy my former English Teacher with that one), I love and respect the fact that banter and debate can go on and on and on about such matters. It helps us learn... and feel kind of important along the way. Well, we are all important in our own little way. To the far left and far right, narrow-mindedness in any direction is scary and a tad bit stupid... for lack of a better term. No matter who wins the upcoming election, let's all do our own part in helping make this world a better place. Yup, that's right... I'm calling for all Yanni themes to be revoked prior to 2010:-)

And here's a song to take it home...

Sorry Jay, for such a long comment.

Jay ~ Thats the very point of the argument, I don't believe you and I don't believe Obama. These are the doctrines of the Church and of Methodists and you know it, and Obama knew his pastor was and is a racist, and nothing you both can say will hide that fact.

I don't like folks named Messiah Hussein Nicholas, not that I am racist or anything:-)

Somebody needs a ((((Hug)))).

Jay - interesting, narrow minded, I have not attacked anyone for their religion, I have not attacked anyone for their middle name, I have not judged anyone less worthy because they didn't have a passport. If that is narrow minded, so be it. No, I don't believe Obama is the anti-christ. But you believe Palin is a witch. Who is narrow minded?

I will make one more statement, it is obvious that Obama has not learned from history. His economic policies have been tried before and failed. He unilateraly took the deterrent of nuclear weapons off of the table.

Sardi - well stated, and, if you have to annoy someone, make it an old english teacher. Thanks for the song, a much better version. As for names, I have a hard time liking people named Aloysious, but that is probably just because of a high school math teacher, Brother Aloysious, but that's another story.

Jason ~ Funny man, but the Obama crowd says Jesus was a community organizer, inferring that Obama as equal to Jesus. Yhey inferred it, now you get offended because I call him the liberal messiah. Now, children sing his praises, "Obama stands for freedom, Obama is going to change the world." He hasn't even gotten into office to change the United States, and he is going to change the world?

I call it like it is, like it or not, but I don't make things up, as do liberals trying to tell us Obama is qualified for the office, and having the nerve to tell us Governor Sarah Palin is not.

That makes sense to the liberal media and linerals, but actually she has more executive decision making qualifications, than both Obama and Biden put together.

But that is too much truth for liberals to hear in one sitting, we must take it slow.

Thanks for having the guts to post the truth about Palin. She seems to think "Joe 6-pack" is her friend. The trouble is "Joe 6- pack" won't be able to afford beer. Most likely he would be "Joe the kegman" once she is in office,as nobody will want to live through the next four years SOBER. She does not deserve to be VP of the Wasilla PTA much less this country. Her lies should be enough to make people think twice before voting for her. She is an incompetent boob that does not care about the people of her state much less her country. She has repeatedly carved away the rights of the native Alaskans to hunt for sustenance (to live or survive) while she has protected the rights of the "sport" hunters. Whats fair and ethical about that?!? I can only hope that women won't vote for her just because she is a woman, that would be a grave error that the US would not soon recover from. There is not enough lipstick in the world to make this pig palatable to this female American voter.
Please encourage as many people to vote as you can. Thanks again.

Betina will be back to tell everyone how she truly feels. Until then, I'll fetch the eyeliner, there is a roast brewing. Who's got the lipstick? I bet Barack looks splendid in shades of pink.

Nicholas - "That makes sense to the liberal media and linerals, but actually she has more executive decision making qualifications, than both Obama and Biden put together." Really? Well, ya got me on that one. Okay, I'm voting for McCain/Palin in a heartbeat. Whew... and to think I was jaded about things...

"But that is too much truth for liberals to hear in one sitting, we must take it slow." No, please move it along relatively fast... I have a big brain and a bigger ego, I'll make out just fine.

It's really amazing...I see a car bumper sticker that says OBAMA...I know EXACTLY who's in the car....I see a post from Nicholas, Betina and Jason and I feel like an FBI Profiler...I ALREADY know what they look like.

ALL these liberal Obama lovers are YOUNG. Nicholas has "age" so you already know he's not an Obamnite. With Age comes MATURITY and INTELLIGENCE. No one could EVER convince a young person the errors of their ways because they think they know it all...been there done that...just amazing. But leaping forward about 25 years, Betina and Jason both will realize how naive they were back in the day when they voted for Obama and he won and the country was bankrupted by liberal tax and spend left wing radicals. Now that does NOT mean all Democrats are left wing radicals...by a long shot that's not the case, BUT, Obama is the #1 far left as you can get.

Jason...Betina...I want to THANK YOU, because I'll be drawing SS in about 4 years and it's your hard earned income that will be paying for me to vacation in Florida and I pray you won't hold it against your party when you become 62 and realize that you won't get SS like me because it's not there for you until age 85 with a life expectancy of 87.

Who was it that said "Ignorant is Bliss".

David states:

"With Age comes MATURITY and INTELLIGENCE. No one could EVER convince a young person the errors of their ways because they think they know it all...been there done that...just amazing".

Do you really mean this? "MATURITY" perhaps more often than not, "INTELLIGENCE" .... excuse me. Did I read that right?

I guess than you are also suggesting, in the spirit of your argument, that older people are so set in their ways that they are unwilling to change because "they think they know it all".

Wow ... Who was it that said "Ignorant is Bliss."? Perhaps you meant "Ignorance"?

Please tell me, I'm too young to know. Go figure!

Thank you for your profound comments.

Roger...

Wow ... Who was it that said "Ignorant is Bliss."? Perhaps you meant "Ignorance"? Perhaps I did mean "Ignorance" and was typing too fast. Forgot this was an English Class.

Oh...and perhaps your..."I guess than you are also suggesting.." you meant to say I guess THEN... and then shouldn't there be a question mark at the end? "...it all". ? I thought you were asking a question.

Yes Roger...we all make typo mistakes in a blog and even emails but we do make an attempt to be close enough that one could understand what we meant. And YES...you got the Maturity and Intelligence correct. Seems simple enough to me.

There is NO WAY anyone could convince you that you are wrong about your core beliefs with reference to "how things work" in life until you've lived it and see it's not what you thought. Life and every experience is a Paradox...trust me. With all that said...my point is...have a bit of "objectivity" in your thoughts and leave yourself open for "other possibilities", but don't close your mind completely on something that MIGHT be true. Regardless what you might think...I Still have an open mind and will entertain any one's ideas but I also have a lot of life experiences that I don't have to read up on a subject to answer many questions.

David - Did I say I was voting Obama? I'm not even sure you read my comments, my friend. Go back and read and then come tell me about maturity and intelligence. Let me keep this simple; I am NOT a Democrat. And as far as your Social Security Benefits, enjoy reaping what you so adamantly loathe being sowed.

David: This isn't an English class. I didn't have a typo, I made a mistake.

I was thinking of "than" in the spirit of comparing your statement to the statement I made. The correct usage should have been, as you suggested, "then". As for the question mark, arguable as I was merely concluding a statement in the spirit of your comment not directly asking you a question.

My youth, lack of maturity and intelligence, led to my incorrect usage.

As for the rest of your comments, I post here because I have an open mind, always interested in what other people have to say. Some would say that I'm an elitist since I have a curiosity for learning and a high regard for those with true intelligence.

At the end of the day, your maturity and intelligence led you to agree with Rush Limbaugh and the notion that:

"Rush put it best today....."she kicked Biden's ass last night"...plain and simple."

If that's what years of maturity and intelligence get me. You can have it.

My lack of maturity and intelligence would suggest that your assessment of the debate is a minority position.

My lack of maturity and intelligence would suggest that you hold a minority position because your maturity and intelligence was clouded by your biased ideological judgment.

David Your "bumper sticker" comment above is honestly one of the most insulting comments I've seen on A|R in a while... and that is saying a lot. Your blanket statements about age being related to one's maturity, wisdom and intelligence shows just how ignorant you are. As a 29 year old, I possess more of those qualities than many 40, 50, or 60 year olds I know (not to mention a number on A|R). How insulting to anyone under whatever age you see as "mature." What is that number, by the way? 30? 35? 45? 55? I'm sure we'd all like to know how intelligent you would rank us. And if Nicholas is the benchmark, well... that's a whole different blog topic. By the way... Obviously, there are a number of Obama supporters that aren't whipper-snappers like myself. In fact my grandmother is a great example of a 70-something that supports liberal (aka progressive, open minded, world) views and platforms like those of Obama.

In regards to your Social Security comment, it's ironic that the same conservatives that call a health care compromise "socialism" are happy to accept their "social" security... especially when they readily acknowledge that it's our money not theirs. Watch those umbrellas in your fruity Florida drinks... would hate to see you choke on one.

Okay, enough is enough. David, Roger, Anthony, Nicholas... let's sit down at a local pub and toss back a few. On me, of course.

I just hope we don't end up like this.

Anthony gave another perfect example to Conservative/Republican Hypocrisy.

"In regards to your Social Security comment, it's ironic that the same conservatives that call a health care compromise "socialism" are happy to accept their "social" security... especially when they readily acknowledge that it's our money not theirs."

Okay then, I'll put Stewart on the tab as well:-)

I didn't forget about you, Jay... after all, this is your gig.

Jason,

Great Cheers clips

Well, I have to agree what most of my critics above have just said. That's part of being Open Minded. You're right. I was completely out of line there trying to make "general assumptions"...those never really work well....that's like trying to criticize "women drivers".

On to Stewart Penn though...now he's a classic case of supreme intelligence living in the state with all the power, money and knowledge base. I have to take exception to your "error" though in stating that it's YOUR money that will be paying my SS. It's a fact that I've paid through "Pay Check Tax Deductions" well over $350,000 of MY money into SS and with a stupid concept like "Privatization" that money would be sitting in a tax free municipal bond right now and I'd be much happier, but since our Tax & Spend government chooses to rob the kitty, that's the only reason "your" money will be used to pay ME because the government has already spent MY money for your Dad.!

As for how our government should operate, I think Stewart's state has the Model for success...you know...the one that's now asking for a 7 Billion Bailout. I would definitely vote out that Republican majority congress you have and get some democrats with some knowledge running things.

Hey David, I think Obama is as big a fraud as McCain and Palin are....tell me where I have it wrong, in my comments linked here:

10/05/2008 04:15 PM by Ed Lefevre

Am I clueless...how....? .Do you see something else happening than what I described? How come the folks you label as "liberal" in the US, compared to those in other post industrial societies, seem to have nothing to show for their "liberal vote", compared to the "takings" by the political interests you front for in your posts?

Liz-

"don't think its about the accent, America has a beautiful diversity of accents, and the Texas Accent is one of my favorites.........its about sloppy linguistics.......and a high level of ignorance about a wide variety of topics......"

I'm sorry, are you calling all Texans ignorant? How many Texans do you know? Also, When people throw the racist card around they do so because they don't like to be lumped in with a particular group because of beliefs, stereotypes,etc. simply because of their race. How is your statement any different from being a racist?

Just curious?

Well Ed...you know I'm not much of a fan of yours, but your comment about McCain, Palin and Obama is "almost" in line with would I would agree with...I wouldn't use the word "fraud" though. I don't believe any of them are frauds, but I don't think either of the 3, nor Biden is the right person to take this country from where we are to where we need to be. The best leaders are either dead or too smart to run for office.

Jay - I've been away since Wednesday and am only now able to get on to AR. I must respectfully disagree with your assessment. In my opinion, Biden did not win the debate. Let me explain:

In order for someone to win a debate, there must be one.....but what was presented to us was well short of debate. Palin did not debate. In fact, she barely even answered the questions. What she did was regurgitate the propaganda of her party and pretty much nothing else. I don't consider that to be debate. Biden was much better in that he did answer the questions, but his problem is that he focused on 'debating' McCain. I understand the strategy of doing so, nevertheless he did not debate the VP opponent. So although he performed better than her, he didn't debate either. There were no winners.

I'll take it a step further and tell you who I think the biggest losers were: the American people.

We witnessed dogshit feces instead of worthwhile engagement. I lost an hour+ of my life that I won't get back. We deserved better.

Tchaka - yes, in boxing this would have been ruled a "no contest". It is a shame that she got away with basically saying she would not answer certain questions.

I have used the job interview comparison a few times, but McCain/Palin and Obama/Biden are running for new jobs. If you, me or anyone else went to a job interview and told the interviewer that you weren't going to answer certain questions, you would not get the job. To use one of Palin's words, I betcha, you wouldn't get hired at many fast food restaurants with that attitude.

OCT

2008

Oh Mama Mia 158 comments - I'd better do some more political blogs! Now I'm going to go back and read all of yours!

Nicholas......ummm is not only 3 days after the 'denates'...its five....i'm still waiting for the surge.........did I miss it?

Amanda - I was referring/referencing a comment from a Texan - if you read up(above my comment) you will see -

And since she was from Texas.....I said I loved a Texan accent......I said the US had a diversity of beautiful dialects............

The ignorance was a reference to Sarah P......if you followed the thread you would have seen it.

I have several Texan friends - and I love their accents........and to date - I have not met any that are ignorant.......but I have met the odd one that jumps to conclusions and can get defensive where there was no need to.

Pray what was racist about my comment.?........not a good idea to read a comment out of context.

Liz-

No my question was about if you are calling all Texans ignorant. When you lump everyone from one particular group together you are essentially doing what most people do when they throw the racist card out there. Which is making an assumption based on ones ethnic background. How is that any different from what you said? Were you or were you not making an assumption of ones ignorance based on what state they come from? I am not calling you a racist. I am just wondering why it is ok to make a judgment on someone based on what state they come from?

Just had to jump back in - I realize trying to reason with Anonymous Ed is like trying to teach a pig to ride a bicycle - it's waste of my time and it just pisses off the pig, however, I do have to reposnd to his allegation that my post is in some way racist. Ed seems to see race lurking behind everything he rants on. If you actually read my posts, the discussion was regarding the signing and expansion of the Community Reinvestent Act as being at the genesis of many of todays mortgage problems. Rather than call me a racist, why don't you point out exactly where that is wrong? Or, as you like to do, cut and past in other people opinions. The fact that it ensnared many minority buyers is not only unfortunate but should have more minority activists up in arms. Again, that's a fact, not racist. Where is Maxine Waters today? She was all up in arms about what a great job Franklin Raines was doing - where is her righteous indignation with those perpetrators today?

I encourage my clients and members of the public to read my material - why I rarely post Members Only. I also write similar articles for newspapers. The only thing that might embarass me is for them to read Anon Ed's rants and think it actually represents the views of any rational contributor to ActiveRain. It's always the Anons who screw up any blogsite since they have no responsibility for their actions and no repercussion from their buffoonery. Heck, Ed was just praising me as being reasonable over on one of my posts, then I come over here and he's calling me a racist. What a...

Tchaka - I agree wholeheartedly. As I mentioned on another post, that was no debate - it was a show. Not a bad show, as reality TV goes, but nowhere close to the debate many of us where hoping for. We deserved better and I hope the principles step up this week and get serious.

Gene - I've always felt that my race is the best. Good strong curve and accelerate on to the straightaway. Nice kneelift and you put everyone else away. Yep, the 200m....best race on Earth. I guess I'm a racist. Perhaps Anon Ed finds you to be partial to the 5000m? I've always thought you to be fair, but I could be wrong.... ;-)

Regarding the debates, I too hope we see something better this week. I actually found myself missing the Bush-Kerry debates in 2004. Dubya came out slow the 1st round, but rebounded the next and the two of them went at it well. Maybe Obama and McCain will engage this time. Fingers crossed.

We should learn that just because someone seems to be a nice person, doesnt mean anything about their capability of the vp or presidential duties.

of all the things that we should have learned already...the guy/girl that you can sit down with to have coffee (or beer) with to chit chat is probably not the best choice. Bush is a perfect example.

Next time you're in a bar or a coffeeshop, keep an eye out for great presidential material.

Obama 08...nothing less.

Lee....SURELY your kidding, right?

Tchaka - don't have the speed anymore but have run a 21.2 out of the blocks 220 (still ran in yards not meters when I ran) and a 20.6 leg in a relay. Unfortunately I was 7th in the state (California) in the 100 and 5th in the 220. I agree, the best sprint. The 100 was too short, just getting started, and the quarter was just a bit too long at full speed.

Tchaka - my race is pretty good too - The Susan G. Komen Race for the Cure coming up on October 19. If anybody would like to donate to a good cause you can reach my pledge site here. I can't run anymore but a bunch of us old timers are gonna walk for the cause. (sorry Jay - no hijack intended)

Gene, sounds like a great cause - thanks for posting the link!

OCT

2008

When you interview for a job, here is a hint: make sure you know what the job is. Joe Biden failed that test last Thursday. He couldn't even get right what a vice president does, but the media didn't notice.

The media is all over itself about how smart and experienced Biden is. Political analyst Charlie Cook is quoted in the Washington Post on Saturday as saying "Biden is clearly so much more knowledgeable, by a factor of about a million." Saturday Night Live does a skit about Biden being smart, if slimy. Meanwhile, Governor Sarah Palin is treated as being nothing more than a simpleton.

Yet, take Biden's statement from the debate on the role of the vice president:

Vice President Cheney has been the most dangerous vice president we've had probably in American history. The idea he doesn't realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the vice president of the United States, that's the Executive Branch. He works in the Executive Branch. He should understand that. Everyone should understand that.

And the primary role of the vice president of the United States of America is to support the president of the United States of America, give that president his or her best judgment when sought, and as vice president, to preside over the Senate, only in a time when in fact there's a tie vote. The Constitution is explicit.

The only authority the vice president has from the legislative standpoint is the vote, only when there is a tie vote. He has no authority relative to the Congress. The idea he's part of the Legislative Branch is a bizarre notion invented by Cheney to aggrandize the power of a unitary executive, and look where it has gotten us. It has been very dangerous.

One should be careful when throwing around terms such as "most dangerous" and "bizarre." But Biden is confusing which part of the Constitution covers the Executive Branch (it is Article II, not Article I). More importantly, the notion that the vice president can preside over the Senate only when there is a tie vote is simply wrong. Nor is it true that the only legislative involvement the vice president has is to break tie votes. The vice president is the president of the Senate, where he interprets the rules and can only be overridden by a vote of 60 senators.

Early vice presidents spent a lot of time in the Senate. Thomas Jefferson even spent his time writing "A Manual of Parliamentary Practice: for the Use of the Senate of the United States." Modern vice presidents may show up only when they think tie votes will occur, but that is their choice.

This isn't rocket science. The Constitution on this point is very straightforward: "The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided."

Instead, it was Palin who got it right. Besides correctly stating that the vice president holds positions in both the executive and legislative branches, she also noted that:

Of course, we know what a vice president does. And that's not only to preside over the Senate and [I] will take that position very seriously also. I'm thankful the Constitution would allow a bit more authority given to the vice president if that vice president so chooses to exert it in working with the Senate and making sure that we are supportive of the president's policies and making sure too that our president understands what our strengths are.

But just as the vice president's job includes more than simply being ready to assume the presidency if the president dies, the Constitution merely states what the vice president's minimum responsibilities are.

Compare the uproar over Palin's answer to Charlie Gibson about the "Bush Doctrine," a doctrine that Gibson clearly didn't understand and for which there apparently exist at least four different versions. Where is the outrage over Biden not understanding what vice presidents do? For Biden, his inability to correctly say what vice presidents do was surely his "gotcha" moment.

Yet, this mistake during the debate was hardly unique. Biden got a lot of things wrong in the debate that are going unnoticed by the fact-check media. Take just a few:

-- Will McCain's health care proposals raise taxes? Biden says that McCain's proposal will cost people money. The Tax Foundation finds that could easily be "roughly deficit-neutral over ten years."

-- Under an Obama Administration the middle class will "pay no more than they did under Ronald Reagan"? No, the tax rates will be similar to the higher rates under Clinton.

-- Did "we spend more money in three weeks on combat in Iraq than we spent on the entirety of the last seven years that we have been in Afghanistan building that country"? No, one year's worth of spending in Iraq equaled five in Afghanistan.

-- France and the U.S. "kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon"? No, and it wouldn't have made much more sense if he had said "Syria" instead.

-- Is it really "simply not true" that Obama said that he would meet with the leader of countries such as Iran without preconditions? No, Obama said "I would."

-- Did Obama warn against letting Hamas participate in Palestinian legislative elections in 2005? No.

-- Do "Iraqis have an $80 billion surplus"? No. If oil prices had remained high, it might have reached $50 billion by the end of this year.

-- Finally, an amusing point as evidence that Biden is just one of the people he pointed to, inviting anyone to have a beer with him at "Katie's Restaurant" in Wilmington, Del. Unfortunately, people will have a hard time taking him up on his offer, since the restaurant hasn't had that name for probably 15 years.

Unfortunately, voters who are trying to get an accurate count on whether the candidates are telling the truth can't rely on the media. FactCheck.org mentions only one of these points, the size of the Iraqi surplus. The Washington Post mentioned Biden's misstatement on Hamas and Katie's restaurant. AOL's coverage of the errors in the vice presidential debate was by far the worst, though that might not be too surprising given that Tommy Christopher, who wrote their news analysis, also blogs on the Obama Web site. None of these checkers mentioned Biden's statements about the role of the vice president.

Compare this to the attacks on Sarah Palin:

-- FactCheck.org criticizes Palin for claiming that McCain's health care tax credits will be "budget neutral" - they argue that the tax credit will be larger than the new taxes that the program will impose. Fine, but if the people at FactCheck.org believe that is true and that the Tax Foundation is wrong, Biden's claim about increased taxes is even more inaccurate. But FactCheck.org doesn't even mention Biden's statement from the debate.

-- From AOL's news analysis piece. "Palin: Said that it is untrue that the U.S. is killing civilians in Afghanistan. According to an analysis by the AP, however, the U.S. is killing more civilians than insurgents are."

What Palin actually said was: "Now, Barack Obama had said that all we're doing in Afghanistan is air-raiding villages and killing civilians." Whether one believes the AP estimate or not, the question is whether she was accurately characterizing Obama's statement of the job that our forces were doing. And Obama said, "We've got to get the job done there and that requires us to have enough troops so that we're not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians" (emphasis added).

-- FactCheck.org's first critique claims that Palin was wrong to claim that troop levels in Iraq are down to their pre-surge levels. They are correct that after the recently announced drawdown, 6,000 more troops will be in Iraq than immediately before the surge. But why not mention that 84 percent of the 38,000 troops in the surge are home or are in the process of coming home?

The media seems to have been covering for Biden for some time. While news stories still talk about Dan Quayle's spelling mistake 18 years later, there has been almost no news coverage of Biden's numerous wacky statements. What if Quayle had said something similar to Biden's recent statement that, "When the stock market crashed, Franklin D. Roosevelt got on the television and didn't just talk about the, you know, the princes of greed. He said, 'Look, here's what happened.'" A neat trick given that Herbert Hoover was president in 1929 and no one was watching television.

It might not fit the simple template for a 36-year veteran of the Senate to not understand what vice presidents do (after all, eight vice presidents have served with him), but Biden knew less about this than the political outsider, Sarah Palin. Given that they are running to be vice president, why didn't that story dominate the news coverage after the debate?

OCT

2008

Doesn't the prospect of Palin as VP sound awfully similar to Dick Cheney as VP?

..... Neither have regard for ethics.

Stewart, I agree. It seems that Palin exhibits the worst of both Cheney and Bush - the ethics of Cheney and the intellect of Bush. One other similarity with Cheney... "dodging" - Cheney dodged the draft several times and Palin dodges questions.

Maybe Cheney is Palin's "role model"

She is impressive and no holds bared. Awesome...just what we need.

Too bad the media and good part of the public are on Kookaide.

Best Regards

Wayne

I read that Palin is simply a chatty sportscaster who lacks the guile to conceal her vacuity.

I love that word - vacuity: "total absence of matter" ... "an empty space" ... "total lack of ideas" ... "the quality or fact of being devoid of something specified"

mmm ... sounds like Sarah Palin to me.

Stewart, if this VP thing doesn't pan out for Palin, perhaps she could start a line of perfume called "Vacuity".

OCT

2008

Stewart, you are absolutely disgusting! I don't know how in the world someone that appears to be so intelligent can wind up so stupid.

As for VACUITY...I can understand why you love the word so much...you're describing yourself. Since you feel so free to insult everyone else, this is for you.

By the way...how's that Bail Out Begging for California coming along? I'd hate for your prison programs for sex changes to have to be curtailed and all those other fine democratic programs you've got cut back on.

Hi Jay. Wow! Why do the Republicans(on AR) like to name call? I see a trend here. They seem to throw temper tantrums just like their beloved McCain when they don't get a general agreement to what they say. Completely sad. Some of these people will never see the truth even if it falls from the sky, lands on their face and starts wiggling around. Why? Because they don't want to. Period. It seems some people want their party to win at any cost and they will lie and stretch the truth to achieve that. These candidates do represent the American people...pretty accurately. I thought Biden did an ok job....some of the things he says...makes me cringe because its not entirely accurate which keeps him parallel with Palin because most of what she says isn't true. I think Biden is a smart guy, but he's not a great public speaker. Maybe they should coach him some more? :)

OCT

2008

David - You are resorting to desperate name-calling in an attempt to bait me to stoop to your level.

I will not.

You are following the example of Dick Cheney (part of the current Republican administartion), who, when he refused to acknowledge the truth, simply got mad:

"Go f*ck yourself." --to Sen. Patrick Leahy, during an angry exchange on the Senate floor about profiteering by Halliburton, June 25, 2004

Talk about winding up stupid .... I'll bet you voted for George Bush, twice.

Get just as passionate about Real Estate, folks. That's what's going to help really bail us out of this mess.

No Stewart...I never voted for Bush. I actually voted for Clinton, and I would have voted for Hillary too. But somebody got screwed there.

You just bring the best out in me Stewart.

David - I'm hoping you have the class to post a public apology for the personal attack you leveled at Stewart. When you attack one person who holds beliefs similar to Stewart's, you attack all of us of like mind.

Pamela, the personal attacks/name calling are a direct consequence of people confining their informatiton stream to a few "alternative" sources that are in reality, only one or two sources, heavily influenced by Brett Bozell III (nephew of William F. Buckley), and of the Salem Communications radio propertites, and of their website, townhall.com. The mainstream media is rejected out of hand, as exhibiting a "liberal" bias...ridiculous on it's face, because all of that media is owned by the likes of Sumner Redstone (CBS), GE (NBC), CNN (Time-Warner), and heavily influenced by competition for advertising dollars. The NY Times goes out of it's way to hire and feature Bill Krystal, David Brooks, and pentagon stenographer, Michael Gordon, "reporting" from Iraq, and none of it does anything to sway the opinions of these folks, lost as they are to the information loop existing soley inside their circled wagons.....and it shows....they cannot mount an argument with citations from other than the abovementioned sources, and from World Net Daily. CNS "news service" is not "news" folks, it is the bullhorn of it's founder, Brett Bozell III!

Just kidding David. I agree with most of what you say.

It appears that my "bet you voted for George Bush, twice" with regard to David was wrong: "No Stewart...I never voted for Bush. I actually voted for Clinton, and I would have voted for Hillary too. But somebody got screwed there."

I'm happy to be wrong in this instance.

However, if David did vote Democratic as he stated, isn't his recent comment of "... and all those other fine democratic programs you've got cut back on" and his sarcastic comment that "I would definitely vote out that Republican majority congress you have and get some democrats with some knowledge running things", schizophrenic sounding?

PS: Jay: sorry to keep adding to your post, but I do need to defend myself against the ridiculous statements made against me.

Stewart, your comments are informative, entertaining and unique. Please continue to share your ideas!

Jay - just because it is not difficult to post, using my sig, it is still low, unprincipled, despicable, and unethical....nevertheless, someone involved in this discussion, did just that....in the "just kidding David", comment, posted above. I thought that this was a "professional" site....disappointing....

Ed - This is a "professional" site... perhaps you are looking in the wrong places to find such?

Ed, I'm not following the logic on your last post.

Jay, one of your fellow members posted, "Just kidding David...." and tryoed in my name, to make it seem as if I had posted that. Instead of discussing the points I had made in my actual post, before that one.