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Health Care is a Right

It's been nearly a week since the second presidential debate. In hindsight, the statement that stands out the most to me is Obama saying that health care is a "right". The founding principles of our country include certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

We have national defense to protect all Americans from death by attack.
We have government imposed speed limits to protect all Americans from death by high-speed crash.
We have government sponsored police and fire departments to protect all Americans from death by murder or fire.
Why should we not have government sponsored (universal) health care to protect all Americans from death by disease?

No bailout is/was needed...
To reverse this nation's economic crisis, I would argue that universal health care is the best answer. Most people that do not have employer sponsored health insurance are working a lower wage job and cannot afford to buy an individual policy (the same people who are likely to have a subprime mortgage). If you're one of those people, McCain's $5k tax credit does nothing, but add insult to injury. People would be able to afford mortgage payments if they did not have to pay for health care. Universal health care would result in a healthier, more productive population, fewer bankruptcies and no need for any bailout, because many more people would be able to afford to pay their mortgage.

What are your thoughts?

Best regards,
Jay

Jay Allen
MovieVoice
jay@movievoice.net

Posted by Jay Allen - MovieVoice on 10/12/2008 12:45 PM

Comments (65)

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65 Comments on Health Care is a Right

OCT

2008

Jay,

When in July of last year I was diagnosed with Breast Cancer my premium for 65/35 $ 5,000.00 deductible Insurance was $389.00 a month. My surgery and treatments left me with $29,000.00 unpaid bt my Insurance Company.

By Sept. my Premium rose to $543.00 a month by Dec 1 they rose the premium to $ 962.00 a month and DEMANDED it be paid ONE year in Advance.

Obviously I could NOT pay it. I am NOW at the MERCY of the State of Arizona and will DIE due to lack of Proper treament.

I have Worked ALL my life. Many times 2 jobs. For 14 years I owned my own Business. I have paid over the past 42 years well over $1.5 MILLION dollars in Federal Taxes Alone.

Someone Please Explain to me WHY I do not deserve to receive the same Health care you do.

By the way I am still working as a Real Estate LISTING agent.

Linda Mae, thank you for telling your personal story. Based on your blogs and writings alone, you are a very strong person and I hope and pray for your recovery. Anyone who reads your comment above and still thinks that we should not have universal health care in this country is a sorry excuse for a human.

It is a shame to think that anyone in this country can work an honest, tax paying job and be left in the cold when it comes to medical treatment. For most people, if you don't have an employer sponsored health care plan, you cannot afford health care. What kind of message does our government send when it cannot provide universal health care to citizens, but it can provide universal health care to prison inmates?

Jay, Although I do believe somehting should be done to make healthcare more affordable. Nowhere do I see it in the bill of rights. I would start by deporting up to 20 million illegal aliens whom do not have health insurance and are an extreme drain on our charity care system.

Linda Mae, I am truly sorry for what you are going through but if you have trult paid over 1.5 million in taxes over the past 42 years then I would say that you are surely in a tax bracket whom should be able to afford health care. There are people in this country who will not make 1.5 million in their entire life.

Hi Jay. I agree with Obama and its one of many reasons I am voting for him. I am sorry, but I think healthcare just like education is a right. I have said this on another blog....I think we should have universal healthcare. With education you can go to a public school, but if you have the money you can opt for a private school. I think we should look at Frances healthcare system. Isn't that what smart business models do? Look at what works? Because our health care system doesn't work for millions of Americans and we should all be concerned about that.

"The French model suggests that you can have universal coverage without relying totally on the state, without restricting patient choice, and without abolishing private medical practice and the insurance industry," says Victor G. Rodwin, a professor of health policy and management at New York University's Robert F. Wagner School of Public Service. One reason the French system seems able to do it all is its practice of using price controls.

Source:

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jun2007/gb20070613_921562.htm

I believe that if every American had that sense of security that comes with knowing you will be helped if you get sick it would actually affect other areas of our lives in a positive way. There are basic things that people deserve....how much stress do you think that puts on someone?

Hugh, I have been unable to work for almost two years now. My entire income for 2007 due to illness was $5,400. Down from almost $300,000.00 from 2006. This year to date I have made just under $7,000.00. So it should be clear to you that I have not only exhausted my life savings to pay off medical bills and living expenses for the past two years that I have barely enough to see me through the end of this year paying mortgage payments etc.

Being able to afford to pay $12,000.00 a year premium for 65/35 coverage is NOT an option I can afford. Sometimes there are those of us who Deserve Universal Health Care But unfortunately we are thrown away to die in the garbage with the ones you all feel do not deserve it!

Jayn~While I do feel something has to be done with the health care system in our country. Socialism is not the answer, ever. Perhaps, there should be laws against the frivilous lawasuits the trial lawyers of America, which are supporting Obama by the way, and by doing this, the premiums should come way down, and doctors liabilty insurance would come down, drastically reducing hospital costs and so forth.

While the is no one solution, socialism is not the answer, and I can't understand how you are always triumphing socialism in every one of your posts.

America is not a socialist country, if you want to live in a socialist country, I am sure they could use your support.

Nicholasn, you have made several references about moving to another country. Who do you think you are to pass judgment on me or anyone else that doesn't share your opinion? Have you ever been diagnosed with narcissism?

If you do not think that our country is perfect - that means you believe, as do I, that it can be improved. How can it be improved if people do not voice their opinion?

Nick,

Linda Mae's problem is not unique. Why would you, a conservative, support government-paid health insurance for our senators and representatives but not one for the citizens? From what I have heard and read, our businesses are put at a disadvantage in competing with foreign businesses in those countries that do provide universal health care. It seems that if we did have health care for all of our citizens, we would be more competitive in the world markets. Those are "unintended consequences" that I like.

Hugh - not that I am in agreement with Linda Mae but I have also paid, over my life, close to $2 million in taxes and have a hard time affording health insurance right now. However, 2/3 of that was in the most horrendous AMT that taxes you on the potential of something if you sold it the day that you bought it but doesn't credit you back if it is worth less when you sell it. By the way, you still have to claim a profit when you sell it and get taxed on that also.

However, I agree, health care should be made affordable. The government has not demonstrated that it can do anything efficiently and at reasonable cost. I expect that record to stay intact once we get less than world class healthcare through it.

Jay ~ I said socialism is not in the American Constitution and you claim that you know it so well. I simply said if you like a socialist country, there are many to go to, probably not to your satisfaction because it does not work.

The truth hurts, but it is a fact.

Health care is a major problem, and I pay through the nose, but I will not share freedom for socialism because I hate to pay high premiums. There are reasons for the high premiums, and you do not address the fact of those frivilous lawsuits that doctors and hospitals have to pay out because of those wonderful trial lawyers that Obama has in his back pocket and are funding his campaign?

I believe everyone should have the right to health care...i just don't want the Gov. dishing it out!

Nicholas, I guarantee you that if your fortunes changed (I realize a narcissist cannot see their circumstances changing) and you lost your job/income, encountered health problems, massive medical bills, etc. you would change your tune.

William, the government developed the atomic bomb, put a man on the moon, etc. The government (with people like FDR and JFK, certainly not with people like Palin) is capable of handling big projects.

Jay ~ Now you are a pyschologist, you have to let me know all your degrees so we can showcase them.

You do not know me or my position in life. My wife as back problems that pre condition insurance claims are hard to adjust to, that is why our premiums are way too high. And we have been refused by many major insurance carriers.

I have worked all my life as an entrepreneur and I thank God I don't live in a socialist nation.

My wife is Canadian, and we choose to live here in the good old United States even tough we could move to Canada and get "free" socialized medicine and health care.

Perhaps, you are the narcissist who thinks he knows everything about everything and everyone?

Jay - France provides model national healthcare to all of it's residents. The consequence is lower national debt per capita, and a healthier population, less deaths per 1000 births, and a higher level of annual reinvestment than in the US. The poverty rate in France is 6 percent, vs. 12 in the US, unemployment rates are now the same in both countries. France has a much stronger currency, a much better balance of trade, and the highest number of annual foreign visitors of any country in the world....while we are fed the lie that a strong currency inhibits exports and foreign visits.

Why are US officials not intensively studying how France has accomplished these things...or even mildly exhibiting an interest in how France does it, given the record numbers of uninsured Americans, a chronically depressed currency, record trade imbalance, and declining numbers of foreign visitors to the US?

Ed ~ So now you want America to become like France. Now I know why you stay hidden from everone?

Nicholas, US GINI is 45, in France, it is 28. US GINI is higher now....i.e. wealth in the US is more inequitably distributed, than it is in Venezuela. Please explain how a US household, with average income....about $49,000 per year... is better off than a comparable household in France?

I am not indoctrinated Nicholas....I believe the average voter should have the potenital, via his vote, to gain via the political results of that vote, as much or more than the top five percent stand to gain.

I submit that the French voters use the superior numbers of the votes of average people, to gain something for themselves. What has the average voter in the US, if he voted in lockstep with the top five percent, gained for the betterment of himself and his family? He got to sit on the sidelines as more and more of his fellows lost all health insurance protection, and as the elite "invested" in malinvestment....passive "holdings" in overvalued stocks and overbuilt commercial and residential real estate. As the world goes down as a consequence, the Frenchman still gets his healthcare, routinely and of the same model quality, he still greets the swarm of foreign visitors, he still enjoys the pruchasing power of a high valuation currency....and has the same odds of obtaining a job...with a minimum wage starting at $13 per hour, with a 35 hours work week, and five weeks paid vacation....and the American, Nicholas.....?

Mike, Believe me I think health ins. premiums are absurd and so is the cost of heath coverage. Something needs tobe done but so far what have we ever seen govt do efficiently. I also know how life's circumstances can get you down, And maybe I should apologize for speaking so harshly to Linda Mae but I have no room for such incessant whining. Especially from someone who claims to be a Christian. One fear i do not have is the fear of death, It just means i get to go home.

Hugh - we are in agreement on the costs of health care. I was not whining about my coverage, just stating a fact.

And France has one of the highest unemployment rates in Europe. The unions fight all government reforms meant to encourage employment, including a voluntary longer work week. France also is over 75% nuclear, has reduced corporate tax rates to stimulate the economy (although still almost as high as the U.S.) which has been somewhat successful. France, like most of Europe, does not tax income earned offshore which most democrats and especially Obama want to do here (Biden calls it unpatriotic to not pay taxes on money earned outside the U.S.

Additionally, workers pay up to 20% of that hourly wage for social security (on top of the almost 40% paid by corporations).

Soory mike didn't mean you I surely don't take you as a whiner

Whats your point Mike? I'm not being bratty I really want to know what your point is. They seem to have a better system with health care, but maybe they need to work on other areas. Maybe you should check this out

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/9994.php

If we have other countries systems to study and learn from to then make a better system why in the world shouldn't we utilize that? We have the opportunity to then..maybe....make an even better system than they have. Because the one we have isn't working for millions of Americans.

Pamela - my point is that I do not trust this government to implement anything without bowing to special interests. Also, I believe that your article may be a bit innacurate, it is not all legal residents it is all fully (not temporary) employed residents. Yes, all legal residents get health insurance, but, those not employed or who earn more that 6000 Euros a year have to pay and are required by law to have it. There is the first thing totally wrong with their program. It is one of the most expensive systems in the world and in worse debt than the medicare system. Additionally, it has a huge co-pay, 30 - 40% of medical costs, 20 - 65% of prescriptions. And it is going broke.

The same argument, studying other countries systems and learn to make a better system, was used when privatization of a small percentage of social security was proposed. It was loudly rejected by certain politicians who wanted to make sure they maintained control over retirees as much as possible.

Oh, and my point was that the person who refuses to identify himself as usual was leaving an awful lot out of the picture.

Hi Jay ... I am not sure about the how, but I do believe all Americans have the right to health care. I fail to see how one can have life, liberty and pursue happiness without their health.

Marie ~ That sounds very smart and cute, but the Constitution doesn't provide you a job either. You have to go out and get one yourself. It provides a way for all to pursue the American dream, but the capitalist system to which it provides and adheres to, is suppose to provide an affordable health care system within the framework of capitalism. But, unfortunately for all the law suits and other road blocks, that system stops working because the health care system cannot afford all the suits against it. Years ago, when all people had to go to the local doctors, no one would dare sue for malpractice. Times have changed, and that is what should be addressed.

Mike, please, now that our own counjtry is descending into unmitigated economic disaster....our national debt will increase by more than 7 percent this year....more than twice the rate of France's....could you stop with the erroneous description of current French unemployment, focus on what kind of government poiliciies benefit the most perople in a country, and WHY?

Our own state dept. says:

France (08/08)

Creating jobs and reducing the high unemployment rate has been a top priority. The unemployment rate in metropolitan France slipped to 7.5% in the first ...
www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3842.htm

The French have the lowest poverty rate in the industrialized world....they have a $13 hour min, wage, and model medical care....so there is not the "Walmartized",mass underclass of working poor fronted as "employed" thet there is in the US. Productivity....GDP divided by total hours worked is the highest in the world in France, Mike....higher than in the US !

US Stock Futures Gain on Bank Plan, Comments by Fed's Fisher
Bloomberg - 1 hour ago
The unemployment rate held at 6.1 percent, up from 5 percent as recently as April.

Is the average income earning household in the US, better off than it's French counterpart, Mike?

The answer is clearly NO!!!!! The French household is much, much, better protected in all areas where quality of life can be measured. The US household is backstopped by bankruptcy, then by applying for welfare.....just to receive medical care, if uninsured....What are you defending, Mike? The right to work at a Walmart for 8 bucls per hour and a fringe Walmart medical plan that most heads of households working at Walmart fulltime, cannot even afford to purchase????

Did I mention that all education in France is provided without charge to the students?

France (08/08)

People Education is free, beginning at age 2, and mandatory between ages 6 and 16. The public education system is highly centralized. Private education is primarily Roman Catholic. Higher education in France began with the founding of the University of Paris in 1150. It now consists of 91 public universities and 175 professional schools, including the post-graduate Grandes Ecoles.

So, Mike, what do we have, here in the US? Let me hear what you would tell a full time US Walmart worker, who has children nearing college age, who is eligible to move to France with his family, that would persuade him to keep residing in the US?

Ed - when you quit being anonymous, as I have said before, I will discuss things with you. Until then.....well maybe you should go to France.

Mike, when you are challenged to back up your inaccurate assertion about the level of French unemployment, suddenly my status is not good enough for you. When you thought you had a convincing argument, my status was not a problem....you challenged what I posted.

I understand what your point is Mike. You can't back up your argument that France's accomplishments are overshadowed by your claim:

"..And France has one of the highest unemployment rates in Europe. The unions fight all government reforms meant to encourage employment, including a voluntary longer work week. .."

I offered you a simple challenge....what would you say to try to convince a US fulltime, Walmart worrker, with children close to college age, to stay in the US, vs. moving to France to live?

Nicholas, when you have some form of health care insurance it's much easier to call universal health care, "socialism" instead of what it is an "unalienable Right".

Jay Anne Marie can probably find you a nice home up in St Johns, You've got to be kidding with that inalienable right stuff.

OCT

2008

Hugh, do you have health care insurance of any sort?

Jay ~ It was not easy with pre exsisting conditions. Thank God that corporations can get health care with exemptions. Again, you do not answer the questions, now you are calling it unalienable right?

The frivilous lawsuits, the trial lawyers in the pockets of Barak Obama would never allow universal healthcare.

When are you going to answer a single question.

Nicholas ... Cute?! No, it does not provide you with a job either, but without your health, it would be impossible to hold a job.

You can assign blame to our litigious society or anywhere else you choose. It is all rhetoric and does not help people who need health care now.

Marie ~ Rhetoric, look up and do your homework. Litigations against doctors and hospitals is spiraling out of control, meanwhile premiums are doing the same, go figure?

Nicholas ... I am not denying that litigation is a problem and affects the health care profession. We can also cite greed among drug companies. However, if you are a person in need, it's all rhetoric ... just a lot of long winded speeches.

This is my stand on the issue, and I see no reason to continue this conversation ... I do not need to be insulted with each of your comments.

Marie, it's good to see your comments. Nicholas does not believe that he can be wrong on any issue.

Every murderer rapist and criminal in this country has the right to an attorney (Miranda Right) yet all ill people in this country don't have the right to a doctor.

Nicholas, health care is not the single determining factor for someone to choose the United States instead of Canada or vice versa. Many people would choose Florida instead of any Canadian province simply because of the weather. But that's not the point of this discussion.

With regards to psychology, it doesn't take an astronaut to see the sun as it doesn't take a pyschologist to observe narcissism when someone never admits to being wrong and questions the patriotism of anyone who disagrees with their opinion.

You're suggesting that litigation is the reason why health care in not affordable - I agree to an extent (in addition to litigation there are also greedy, unethical insurance/pharmaceutical companies and a lack of government regulation). In any big business there is a great deal of litigation, but that doesn't mean that hard working, patriotic lower income families should suffer.

Yes, Life (health care) is an unalienable Right. If you disagree, then you are not truly pro life.

alright, I'll play your game. But here's the rules now that I'm paying the tab as your dictator.

I will tell you how many kids you can have.

I will tell you how much you can weigh.

I will tell you who can smoke or drink.

I will tell you where you can or can not eat.

You can forget any activity that may be dangerous by our rules like skiing, sky diving, etc.

I will tell you 10 years from now that we screwed this up just like we did social security.

Forget about finding a cure for cancer.

I hope you like waiting months for that surgery you need and I hope you don't die waiting.

But you go ahead and get your socialist agenda passed. Just don't come whining to me later when they screw it all up and don't deliver as promised.

Cheri', for most of the items on your list, change "I will" to "your insurance provider" - and you'll see present day conditions. A number cruncher with your insurance company is already acting as your health care dictator. Even at that, consider yourself fortunate if you have health care insurance of any sort.

I can't believe how much Jay wants this country to become socialist.

Hugh

Living in the southwest we are innundated with illegal aliens . I have had to go to the emergency room twice in two years. Once for multiple dog bites. Once for a severe wound to my foot. Both times I waited 2 hours before the wounds were even cleaned. I waited behind women who were pregnant and ready for delivery but otherwise were fine...no emergency . They had no insurance and no visa and were given full help. I waited behind people with mild cases of the flu and colds. They were fine otherwise.

The reason: Many non-citizens go to this hospital emergency room because they will not be turned away if they can't pay. I would never be one to turn away someone in true need, but many of these illegal citizens laugh at us while simultaneuosly abusing the system and ultimately causing it to self implode.

OCT

2008

Jay - Healthcare should be a right. Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness are not the only rights implied in our constitution. Even if they were two of these three are not possible without good health. It is not a matter of socialism. If we as a nation can support other nations with billions of dollars of aid each and every year then we can certainly afford to cover our citizens for basic healthcare needs. If we were in prison we would have healthcare provided.

Jay-I agree with you that health care is (or should be) a right. There is only one presidential candidate who agrees with that and that candidate is Obama. McCain proposes a tax break, but then turns around and taxes employer provided health care.

Linda Mae-I can certainly relate to emphasize with your situation. My partner was recently diagnosed with prostate cancer. Fortunately, because I had worked for a progressive company, AT&T, which provides domestic partnership benefits, I could cover him on my insurance. Had that not been the case, the bills for two days in the hospital would have been over $50,000.

I guess people like Nicholas or Cheri' must have some great insurance or they figure they will never become ill. There are thousands of people who have become bankrupt because of medical bills. Why do people think that AARP has made health care its #1 priority. And, Cheri', maybe we would be closer to a cure for cancer and other diseases if we had stem cell research, but that's another topic.

Jay, My insurance provider is not like that. I have a ppo and it's pretty good although I would like some changes AND we pay $15,000 a year for that coverage which I know most people can't afford.

However, what about the programs we already have that appear to be working for "poor" people such as Medicaid, Medicare and the Chip program?

My cousin has had 4 kids on that program. FREE.

My grandmother in Tennessee is on Tenncare and does great and has had hip replacement and everything else under the sun for FREE.

My cousin's kids get their shots, free. Dental, free. I pay on average $300 every time my kids go to the dentist.

I think the problem here is the middle class not the poor. The poor have got it made as far as medical care as far as I can see.

We, the middle class (at least my family) pay an outrageous amount for our insurance to get the same care the poor get. Because we make money we are expected to pay and do. We don't want our credit messed up if we fail to pay a bill.

I believe we need some regulations set in regards to the medical community. I mean come on....they charge $100 just to listen to your heart. But we don't need free medical across the board for everyone.

Giving away things does not encourage people to work and makes the economic problems worse.

I believe we also need some regulation/law in regards to frivolous lawsuits that cause healthcare costs to rise more.

We defintely need some change but let's not put it in the hands of the govmt. That hasn't worked in other countries and our stupid leaders can't even keep social security straight so we can't expect them to do any better with medical care.

I don't want the govmt being involved in my health like that. My body is not their business. Not in that way.

Rich, my daughter was in a coma for a week a few years ago from Cat Scratch Fever and ran up $54,000 in bills. I only paid $20. Insurance paid the rest. BUT she is on both Tricare (military from her dad) and my husband's plan. So two plans.

My husband had a stroke 3 weeks ago and was in the hospital for a week. Still has to see the docs weekly, 5 rxes. I will pay no more than $2000 of the total bill plus $10 a piece for the rxes and $20 a visit for the docs.

That is more out of my pocket than any of my family ever pays when they get ill. PErhaps the state they live in has better free medical for low income people than your state.

I agree we need changes but I am more about putting money back into pockets and letting people choose their own insurance and regulating the insurance companies than I am about putting my health into the hands of MArie and Napoleon aka the govmt.

When my mother in law lived with us the insurance company would not let my husband put her on our insurance. I thought that was wrong. I am glad you can cover your SO. That is only right even though I don't believe in the "lifestyle". You should be able to cover those who live in your home regardless of relationship.

Oh and I have Lupus. Want to guess how much that costs me a year?

My neighbor is at the dentist with her daughter right now. Wont cost her a dime cause she's on foodstamps. One of my kids has a cavity and it will be February before I can afford to get it fixed. Must be nice getting free medical but I still don't want it.

IF you want to fight for this right....at least do it informed. The poor dont have it that bad from what they are all telling me, the middle class do because of their income levels.

If my husband died tomorrow I'd struggle but survive like I did before him when I had 3 kids.

The best thing for us imo is to encourage the next generation to get a good education and good jobs with healthcare. My husband was raised dirt poor and now makes a 6 figure salary. Everyone has that opportunity! I was raised by a single mother and I do not make a 6 figure salary but my kids never went hungry. Had I listened to my mom instead of getting married at 17 I could make a 6 figure salary. I still can and am striving for that.

What I won't do is do like my neighbor and give up and go on food stamps and welfare and drown myself in vodka like she does going from guy to guy.

There are too many people like her in this country. I won't be one of them. I will die trying.

I'm all for stem cell research as long as it isn't from aborted babies. Scientists have said they can get it from umbilical cords too. Great. Use the nasty crap for something good. But don't harvest dead babies.

Oh there are some really good points and arguments on here right now!! I have to finish my 100 days of greatness homework and then I am coming back!! :)

OCT

2008

Cheri, the "mess" you described in your last two posts, makes Jay's argument, IMO. Consider that much of what you posted is contradictory, and that you signal a deep resentment towards others...primarily those who you think are much less affluent and powerful than you and your family are. Is it rational or healthy for you to harbor and exhibit feelings and opinions like you have posted towards others, in a discussion about a vital...life or death service, sudh as access to affordable medical care?

Let's compare your claim of how "easy" it is to "earn 6 figures" annually, with data available for your own community (or the community where your office is located....)

4 Demographics
"The median income for a household in the city was $37,787, and the median income for a family was $45,764. Males had a median income of $38,059 versus $26,799 for females. The per capita income for the city was $20,331"

Are most working folks in the town of Tomball, TX, "too lazy", in your opinion, Cheri, to earn that "6 figures"...because they aren't, and the average household there can afford nowhere near $15k PPO insurance coverage, each year?

Less than 15 percent of all households located withing 5 miles of the Dairy Queen on Main st., Tomball, had incoem in 2007, greater than $100k....

Here's the same date for Harris County,

3 Demographics

The median income for a household in the county was $42,598, and the median income for a family was $49,004. Males had a median income of $37,361 versus $28,941 for females. The per capita income for the county was $21,435. About 12.10% of families and 14.97% of the population were below the poverty line, including 19.60% of those under age 18 and 12.20% of those age 65 or over.

Are the members of the households of the entire county, "too lazy" or too uneducated to make that "6 figure" income? Can the average Harris county household, afford anywhere near the cost of a $15k annual PPO premium?

More data:

Harris County, Texas detailed profile - houses, real estate, cost ...

Why not put your emotion driven prejudices aside, for just a minute, and consider:

Is Europe's Health Care Better?

Jun 13, 2007 ... But France does it for far less, with per capita health-care spending in 2004 at just $3500, compared with $6100 in the U.S., according to ...
www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jun2007/gb20070613_921562.htm

Consider that, in order for a "system" of private insurance to function profitably, the healthy, as well as the ill or those with pre-existing medical conditions must all be paying for insurance coverage at all times. If there is no penalty or waithing period or exclusions for pre-existing conditions, it would not be insurance coverage against the risk of possibly needing medical care. Why try to keep track of who is healthy and not paying premiums, but attempts to obtain coverage when a perceived need for care arises?

Do you know how much "who pays" investigative and negotiating hours are paid for in a given year? The investigations take place after medical care is billed....to determine on the job workers comp injuries from auto accident injuries, from injuries occuring on an employee's own time, from medicare or medicaid, or private insurance covered injuries....and on and on? Lawyers are involved in the pursuit of payment from responsible medical coverage payer, or even from a third party.

They do not have to deal with any BS like that, in France....one party pays for the cost of all care, funded by taxes levied and collected.

The US government cannot do anything right....is your next argument? What about Social Security....that agency seems to have done an excellent job, for the past 71 tears. That agency has a $2.2 trillion surplus. Congress wrote a law, most recently signed by President Reagan, that the surplus revenue collected by Social Security is spent alongside any other taz collected, and a "special" US Treasury bond series is issued to Social Security, deposited to it's trust fund. That $2.2 trillion surplus is displayed here:

OASI and DI Trust Funds, combined, 1957 and later (displayed in top table on page)

Let's stop the incoherent emotional arguments and examine this situation as if it were any service your business contracted...wouldn't you search for the most efficient and cost effective solution to the problem of runaway cost for a service that has hit or miss results...as the present status of nearly 50 million uninsured Americans, and many other underinsured people, clearly illustrates?

And there is this problem...unique now to the US, compared to all other ODCs in the world today:

Automakers Jobs Moving to Canada Because of High Health Costs—Why ...

May 5, 2008 ... Automakers Jobs Moving to Canada Because of High Health Costs—Why We Need Health Care Reform in California--and What We Don’t Need ...
www.californiaprogressreport.com/2008/05/automakers_jobs.html

Displayed next to Cheri's "I want to go it alone", everybody for themselves, and this one is a lowlife or is lazy, and I don't want the government doing...." ARGUMENT, isn't my response, at least something to take line by line....and attempt to debunk or to agree with? This problem was important in 1993, much discussed....nothing was done because of reaction like....in Cheri's last two posts......

In my little corner of the world the highest paying jobs in a 110 mile radius (because that is how far Las Vegas is) is an average of $ 6.50 an hour.

Thousands work at the casino's and unless you are high up in management the casino and housekeeping workers are paid less than $7.00 per hour. Then there are all those that work at Wal-mart and other retail business's for minimum wage $5.25 in Arizona. Even grocery clerks are considered in the high pay bracket at $8.00 an hour. A waitress because of tips is paid $2.25 an hour in AZ.. One of the highest paying jobs here is if you were lucky enough to get a job with the county before the AZ freeze on jobs over a year ago at $12. to $14. an hour.

The median income here is $22,000 a year. Fortunately most all casino employees have Health care coverage. Wal-mart keeps 75% of it's employees on part time so they do not have to pay Health Ins.

The reason I went in to Real Estate when I moved here 7 years ago after selling my third and final restaurant in California was because it is one of the few and only career choices that could and did elevate my income (until I became ill) in this community.

The point is My area is not unique across America it is the norm in small rural communities.

It does not matter how educated or healthy or Actively vigorous a person is that lives in towns all across the country. Minimum wage is the rule not the exception.

Not everyone can move to the city. And if they did? Say we all evacuate small town USA and head to the city to make the BIG bucks as people such as Cheri' suggest we all can and should.

DO YOU REALLY SUPPOSE THERE WOULD BE ENOUGH 6 FIGURE INCOME JOBS TO SUPPORT US ALL.

Gee, Kill that Lazy theory!

I agree something needs to be done with Healthcare in this country, I don't agree with the direction this country is heading. It scares me to see how quickly everyone seems to want to embrace Socialism. Socialism doesn't work, and to be honest, turning over my health care to the Government is like turning it over to Wall Street or a Mortgage Lender. No thanks.

Jay,

What do you think we are paying for our elected officials' health care programs? How about we take our money back and use it to help people who can't help themselves. I am not talking about the bums who don't want to take care of themselves. Surely, our elected officials make enough money to pay their own way, huh?

Ed,

First of all my family is not powerful in any way that you imply. We simply have goals and ambitions we are working for and will always strive to be better. In that way, we are powerful. Paying off debt and being debt free makes you feel powerful and in control of your own destiny. Seeing your chlidren struggle and succeed finally that makes you feel powerful and like you did a good job and were blessed. Sitting and waiting for the govmt to save you doesn't make you feel powerful it makes you weak and weaker.

My husband was born and raised in Shreveport LA. He knew it was a dead end town. You had a choice...work for the gambling boats or leave. He left and went to Houston. If you are born in Harlem that doesn't mean you have to stay in Harlem. You go where opportunity is and you keep on going where the opportuinity is. You don't stay where opportunity is dead. I can suggest some very good books for you if you really feel you are stuck in a dead end town and can never reach a 6 figure salary. Start with Rich dad poor dad. Stop thinking and actiing like the poor and start using the system that exists to achieve greatness. Don't hate those who have already figured it out....learn from them!! The govmt is not going to rescue you.

Those demographics may or may not be true. However, all of those people qualify for programs and are probably on programs that already cover them just like my neighbor. Why create more when the system already works for them? You already give them medicaid, wic, welfare and here...Lonestar cards, aka foodstamps. How much harder do I have to work so the Vodka queens can spit out more kids on my dime? What is wrong with her getting a JOB? A job ? Imagine that...she'd have to get out of bed before noon? OMG what will she do? The world will implode surely and there's millions more like her you silly naieve people!! Open your eyes. You aren't helping them succeed in life.

I said I agree that the system is a mess. No argument. But stop saying that crap about the pooor poooooor people. They already have it made where healthcare is concerned in some states people!

I have no resentment towards those who are deserving. Give me a break. My grandmother had at least 6 major surgeries on Tenncare. Why would I resent that I didn't have to pay for it. It's great!! She's a senior citizen she deserves it. She paid into medicare long enough. Others don't deserve it cause they contribute nothing to society and don't intend to.

WAnt to know what I want out of medical plans? I want doctors and hospitals to stop overcharging. I want for everyone to be able to afford insurance, notice I didn't say free. I want to stop having to pay $15,000 a year for insurance for good coverage. I want to walk into a doctors office and say my husband is having a problem and have them figure it out BEFORE he has a stroke not tell me in hindsight he was headed towards this for awhile. Why didn't they know this earlier when we went to the ER 2 months before the stroke ? Insurance wouldn't allow tests that would have shown them the problem. Procedures and all. I feel the problem people. I feel it hard and personal. You think I have an extra $2000 to pay for medical bills on top of the $15,000 we already pay? No. I don't. But where there's a will there's a way and I'm not waiting on Uncle Sam to save me. Uncle sam just screws everything up and will make medical care WORSE than it already is!!

Sure my husband makes a 6 figure salary but we have EIGHT kids people( which the govmt would say was too many kids on their new improved health care...China here we come!). EIGHT...so I assure you we are not living "high on the hog" as my country relatives would say. He pays a small fortune to his exwife. We pay a small fortune just in federal taxes. If they gave me back what we pay in taxes I could support 6 more people!!

IT's rediculous but SOCIALISM is not the cure to this problem.

I live in Illinois and we are seeing Obama commercials here, where he will win by a landslide. Apparently his message is not getting through to Texas.

The Obama plan does not mandate government health care for people who have employer health care. His plan provides a safety net for those who do not have such health care.

John McCain proposes a tax credit but will start taxing employer health care. I think I prefer Obama's "socialism" to McCain's giving with one hand and taking away with the other.

Remember, too, that is under a Republican administration that we are nationalizing banking. (Socialism?)

Yep Rich, it is and I am against the bailout. I am ticked off to be honest. I think it's rediculous.

By the way Ed, If you live in Tomball and make $45,000 a year you are doing prety well. Housing prices aren't like NY, California, Seattle, etc, here. Since our cost of living is lower, it makes a big difference. The average house costs about $120,000 in any given month. You can buy a shack in Seattle for that much or buy a brand new home here.

Rich....we have an Obama channel on Dish Network but I rarely watch tv so I haven't watched it. Don't know what it's about. No, he just recently started having commercials here. So basically you are saying he won't do anything for those of us getting screwed by our employer health care?

Bob and Cheri, if I managed a business with say, 10,000 employees, and either of you was my company's employee benefits manager, and I asked you to examine what our competitor's costs were for employee medical benefits...and I said, I see that France, Inc. is providing more comprehensive care covering more employees per dollar spent...they're spending 28 percent less than we are and getting more bang for the buck....and either of you came back with the responses you two posted...quite frankly, I'd have no choice but to replace with you someone who had some business sense and a goal to cut costs and get the best results for the amount expended.... I think you would fire yourselves, too, if you put yourself in the CEO position and read your posts....what is with this ideology...if it cripples us, financially, or shuts out millions of our fellow countrymen from medical insurance coverage? I just don't get the way of thinking....

Ed - If you, "managed a business with say, 10,000 employees...", then you'd be one of those heartless, greedy, evil "rich people"whom you love to denigrate - and I think that just might cause your head to explode!

With regards to health care... in tonight's debate, Obama dispelled John McCain's assertion that small businesses would be fined if they did not provide health insurance to their employees.

Obama insisted that there will be no fines. "[Obama will] exempt small businesses from the requirement for large businesses that can afford to provide health care to their employees, but are not doing it. I exempt small businesses from having to pay into a kitty. But large businesses that can afford it, we've got a choice. Either they provide health insurance to their employees or somebody has to. Right now, what happens is those employees get dumped into either the Medicaid system, which taxpayers pick up, or they're going to the emergency room for uncompensated care, which everybody picks up in their premiums."

OCT

2008

Ed, as a company benefits manager I would do some research into more than just the numbers. I would find out how happy the people are with what they are getting.

The problem with number crunching is that it only shows one side of the story.

Ask someone in a country like Canada or England how happy they are with their medical and you will hear absolute horror stories.

I would be all for a national health care system if there was one single country that had got it right and there isn't.

I would be for it if our country had a history of being able to handle financial matters in a way that benefitted ALL people. They don't.

I got my annual social security letter a week ago. It says that by 2017 we will begin paying more in benefits than we collect in taxes and that without changes by 2041 the SSTF will be EXHAUSTED and there will only be enough money to pay only about .78 cents for each dollar of scheduled benefits.

That doesn't scare you? Our US govmt can not even get social security right and you think these geniuses will fix the medical problems?

That is funny. If you owned a company with 10,000 employees and you relied on the govmt to keep your business going, you'd fail miserably.

The govmt can't manage the govmt well...much less it's citizens personal business.

Jay, I heard that. That is great but those large companies should have been offering medical all along and if they weren't then they should be fined. However, those big businesses will just pass the cost on to us by raising prices so either way WE the citizen pays.

Rich, I should have mentioned to you that all we have is a Republican president. Since we have a Democratic congress, I can blame them for this bailout mess, especially since more of them voted yes on this idiotic idea.

OCT

2008

Health care is not a right. It is not in our constitution. Yes, health care in America is a mess, no doubt it needs revising.

I sold a home to a physician moving here last year. He was from England and did a fellowship here the year before. I asked him about health care in Great Britian. He told me, you wait and wait for a MRI. Whereas at the U of M Medical Complexes you have MRI ready when needed. The health care for patients is much better here. Yes, they serve the un and under insured.

When folks start talking about National or Universal Health Care in the U.S. I ask them how they like to go the Post office or the they like the public education system. Enough said.

What has the gov't ever managed effectively, efficently. Look at FedX and UPS has brought the standards for the US Post office up.

Competition is good.

Missy, many vital components of our society are not specified by the constitution.

In any case, a couple of remarks in your comment stood out...

"you wait and wait for a MRI"- specifically how long, is it the same waiting period regardless of the patient's ailment?
"how they like to go the Post office" - what is wrong with your post office? Any post office I have visited in this country is efficient, well-managed, and provides a quality service at low cost.

Jay, he did not say HOW long, only that it was a wait, and in the U.S. you have them waiting in the ER.

Our post office in both Ann ARbor and Saline have L O N G lines, unfriendly people, quite unhappy looking actually, just like the Secretary of State office. Glad yours in better.

Jay I just looked at your profile, I am from Paducah..........graduated from Tighman and U of K. My brother owns Mullen Motors on Broadway, I've lived in Mi since 1981.

Jay- As left leaning as I am, and as much as I think healthcare and insurance should be available to everyone, it needs to be a different monster than the typical Universal system from Europe, and completley revised from our current system. Just like oil companies, we as a nation have allowed oursleves to be completely addicted to what the drug companies are pushing, and what the doctors tell us. We don't eat healthy, don't exercise and are the fattest in the world. Then when we really need it, the costs are too high. I don't know the answer, but we both agree that something needs to change. There are too many sad stories.

Missy, it's a small world! I've only traveled to Michigan a couple of times (mainly layovers in Detroit), but other than some really cold weather seems like a good state to call home.

Anyway, it sounds like it would be bad to have health care run the same way as the postal service in Michigan. Thankfully, the post office is not a bad place in Kentucky.

MAY

2009

Everyone in Canada and other countries where health care reform IS working, are using a "Single Payer" program. The big insurance companies, the "Middle Man" has been cut out completely! This is what President Obama originally wanted when he began his quest for the White House, before the Insurance lobbyists got to him .... http://www.pnhp.org/facts/what_is_single_payer.php

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Jay Allen - MovieVoice

Paducah, KY

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MovieVoice Production Co.

Address: 2165 Irvin Cobb Drive, Paducah, KY, 42003

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