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Freedom of Speech or Inciting a Riot?

Don't know how the MSM missed picking up this one. What do you think?

Via Tim Maitski "Secret Agent Guy":

Is it still legal in this country to voice an opposing viewpoint?

Is it only legal to voice that viewpoint to others who agree with you?

Is it legal to wear a political t-shirt into a crowd of people who support an opposing candidate?

If a mob intimidates a person who is wearing a t-shirt that they don't like, should the police defend that person's right to make his statement or should the police arrest the person in order to appease the angry mob in order to keep a riot from starting?

How big of a mob does one need in order to have the police help you shut up an opposing viewpoint?

Should a person wearing an Obama t-shirt be arrested if he attended a public McCain rally?

These are a few questions I had after I watched this video. It's making me do a lot of thinking.

Posted by Michelle Chamberlain - Suburban Philadelphia Mortgage Broker on 11/11/2008 11:55 PM

Comments (88)

obama, mccain, election

Post is included in group: Blatant Politics
Post is included in group: Dissent
Post is included in group: Politics And Real Estate
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88 Comments on Freedom of Speech or Inciting a Riot?

NOV

Pretty sad happening Michelle. I could have done without the blocks at the bottom, I think the video was powerful by itself.

This is quite simple: the guy has the right to free speech and is allowed to wear his shirt with an opposing viewpoint. The police were also right in what they did.

If there is concern that people might get out of control, remove the issue and help maintain peace. He was asked to leave and he didn't. So he was arrested.

This is what we can expect,we will hear the deafening silence about acts like this from our president elect.

Tchaka - I cannot believe that you wrote what you did. This man has every right to express his political view. These officers were not removing him for his protection, they were shutting down his voice.

When you state "If there is concern that people might get out of control, remove the issue and help maintain peace." you are justifying the tactics of Woodrow Wilson's brute sqauds, the police at the various political conventions, the actions of the Chinese government in shutting down opposing viewpoints, etc.

He should never have been asked to leave.

Mike - As I said earlier, this is quite simple. It's not about whether or not he has the right to do so, we both know he does. It's about whether a massive group of people with opposing views will respect his right to do so at that specific time. People drinking and dancing in the street probably aren't reciting the 1st Amendment while reveling. I'm guessing there were hundreds partying, a handful of police on hand and one protestor.....it only takes one jackass partier to wreck everything. Simple decision.

What a disgrace. Once again, I always have to go back to the thing where if this would have been the other way around, the NAACP would have been involved and all that good stuff. Real fair and tolerant!

Is this not a communist state now. First the media is taken over by socialists, now the police are acting against free speech, now that is a sign of communism, plain and simple.

They may be coming for us soon.

John - It doesn't matter whether the NAACP or anyone else gets involved - that's irrelevant. You MUST take a snapshot in time and at that moment, the police did what's right. What you're discussing is post-event. Of course you can get the ACLU involved now if you'd like. But again, this is post-event.

Michelle ~

Congratulations thi post is now featured in Silent Majority.

I have mixed feelings here. I think the police did what is best even if it wasn't necessarily the best political move. They may have saved his life. I can see those people were out of control. They were not acting the way I would act. It would have eventually led to him getting hurt. There would have been fists thrown most likely and he was one guy. Is it his right to get his butt kicked, sure, but the police are sworn to protect. I don't even know if he was arrested/booked or just taken to his car or home. Do we know he was arrested? If they are smart they just relocated him away from the crowd.

The crowd was wrong in harrassing him but the video may not show what he was doing either. It's one sided since we can't see it from when he first showed up.

Both sides may have been provoking each other.

I'm going to reserve judgement right now. If it turns out he was just peacefully walking around and they started that mess, then I say the people need a lesson in how to behave. That is inappropriate if it was just over a tshirt.

I watched the video again and I hear no Miranda rights being read so Im inclined to believe he wasn't arrested but who knows.

Cheri - You DO get it!!! As I've said several times, it's pretty simple.

Michelle and Mike - would you have really rather the cops stayed out of it alltogether and let the dude get his face kicked in? On another note, Nicholas - how is this something that has anything whatsoever to do with Obama himself? Reading you would make one think that Obama is sitting there filling out one executive order after another to silence all sorts of people. You sound more and more paranoid as the days go by.

Cheri' I just want to commend you for realizing this incident went beyond Politics. I too believe the Police were reacting to save this foolish young man's life and probably took him home. I doubt he was arrested they just wanted to STOP him getting beat-up and a possible riot starting. Can't Blame a handful of police for that. It would have been the same reaction in any situation when 1000's of people are dancing and drinking in the streets.

Tchaka - I really cannot believe your comments. Now of course we don't know if the man was shouting anything at the people celebrating and if he was then that would certainly be different. But if he was simply there and was a potential VICTIM then surely the police arrested the wrong person. To me this is the same as me wearing a Tampa Bay Bucs shirt going to follow my team in the same city - Phiiladelphia. Are you suggesting the police should arrest me? Oh and Nick - weird though this may be, I completely agree with Inna here. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the President Elect.

Michelle ~
Congratulations this post is now featured in the Silent Majority Group of Active Rain.

Michelle ~

Congratulations this post is now featured in the Blatant Politics Group of Active Rain.

Cheri - he was led away in handcuffs, that is an arrest. They are supposed to be protecting the individual from the crowd, not the crowd from the individual

Inna - they should not have handcuffed him and arrested him, he stated where his car was supposed to be, they should have escorted him there.

He was handcuffed and put inside a police car. That leads me to think he was arrested. As far as Miranda rights been read, how could you have heard them over the crowd chanting "Obama"?

Once again confusing socialism with communism here. If anyone thinks we are going to become a socialist nation, let me remind them of the following:

Nationalization of the mortgage industry

Nationalization of commercial banks

Nationalization of the insurance industry

FEMA

Social Security

Head Start

Educational vouchers

Medicare

Medicaid

Corporate subsidies

Farm subsidies

Food subsidies

Job Corps

And too many more to list. Before you start yelling its all the Democrats fault, your backyard might be a good place to start looking. The only thing we don't have in this country is "social medicine." Something that would work to keep our people healthy, and fix them if they're not. While big oil and others of their ilk are raking in astronomical profits AND getting subsidies from the government, we have citizens who are sick, and citizens who die for lack of medical treatment.

I agree with that person being removed from the crowd, as has been previously stated, for their own protection. Had anything happened to them, I'm sure there would have been outcry here that nothing was done to protect them.

Let me see if I understand this.

Forcibly removing someone, in handcuffs, from the area of an impromptu Obama rally is ok, for his own good.

Removing disruptive persons from a McCain/Palin rally, a Bush rally, etc is a gestapo tactic violating freedom of speech.

I think I get it. Some disrupting a conservative assembly is not likely to be injured by an unruly crowd whereas someone wearing a t-shirt with an opposing viewpoint at a liberal assembly is in danger of life and limb and any violation of his first ammendment rights is justified.

All clear to me now.

The guy does have free speech and free assembly rights. The police also have a duty to the public to prevent citizens from getting killed because of their own stupidity and the stupidity of people like the guy in the T-shirt. Seems like he was looking for trouble to me.

The guy had every right to be there, but I question his judgement. Leave the street riots to the Democrats, that is no place for a Republican.

Just like the little old lady that was manhandled in Palm Springs at the No 0n 8 Rally. You won, you don't need to be in the street trying to convert a radical. IT SERVES NO PURPOSE.

Protesting is a form of bullying and shows no respect for political dialogue. Freedom of speech and freedom to gather was intended to promote thought, not rhetoric and violence. If you have any patriotism and significant political beliefs, stay out of the road.

Here is a thought the Macin/Palin shirt guy was at an election night party. His side lost, he left the party and when he walked out the door he was in the middle of a Obama victory rally. It was a good thing for him, the police and America that it was a victory rally; because it could have been one of many loser’s riot. After all, no one can riot like an emotional Democratic Socialist.

Yeah Brian, I remember all the riots that broke out after our votes weren't counted here in Florida, TWICE! And bush was appointed president. They were really bloody and violent. I assume you remember them too otherwise you wouldn't have made such an offhand comment. Go ahead, hate!

Inna/Tchaka and others: I'm confused as to why this man had to been arrested before the crowd hurt or killed him. Why would the crowd have done that? I went to a McCain/Palin rally which was held outside on a public street. There were a handful of protesters which stood outside the roped off area for ticket holders. They were loud and disrupted the rally several times. No one arrested them for their protection. Do we not expect white suburbanites to beat up protesters but we expect it of young black kids in the city?

Simon - With due respect, like others on here you're mixing what is legal with what is prudent and that's an argument you will not win. No one disagrees with his right to protest, it's his safety and the possible safety of others that matter. I don't know about today, but as little as 10 years ago you would get your arse whupped if you showed up in the bleachers of Veterans Stadium wearing a Bucs shirt. They don't play in Philly. Let me give you a better example.......as we all know (or should know), pedestrians have the right of way at intersections. Imagine yourself on foot having just arrived at an intersection and the light turns green for you to cross. As you look around you see a semi halfway through the intersection on the street you're about to cross. You also see a bus on your left arriving at the now green light ready to take a right turn on to the street you're about to cross. All of a sudden your 5 year old daughter begins to dart across the street. What do you do?

Michelle, yep, you nailed it. Tchaka and I here are just a pair of racists, expecting those dark skinned urban-dwelling latte-gulping younsters to tear a good God-fearing white McCin supporter into shreds. WTF? I don't know how else to put it, outside of what's already been said, but really, it was/is quite simple. Cops see stupid dude who is putting himself in a potentially bad situation. There is a handful of cops to protect this person's rights and safety, and I guess those coppers neglected to consult their PR department for a politically appropriate way of handling the situation, so they took the man out of the situation, albeit in handcuffs. If the guy got hurt - then you'd all be screaming about how them urban-dwelling probably liberal/communist/marxist cops didn't do their job in protecting his person.

Mike - You do realize that this guy wasn't arrested for his shirt or his non-Obama views, right?

Rob & Joe - You two do get it.

Brian - Thanks again for the laugh. At this rate it won't be long before you're an AR jester.

Michelle - The difference is that you went to an organized rally. I'm pretty sure the election victory celebration was impromptu. A planned rally has contingency plans and security measures in place such as ample police/security, roped off areas, etc. Impromptu gatherings lack those.

Inna - I am a racist! Per a comment I made last month, I believe the 200m to be the superior race. >:-)

To pre-empt those who might think otherwise, this guy wasn't arrested for his shirt or beliefs.......it's clear as day he was arrested for refusal to listen the police. Quick lesson to the less-than-wise: when an officer directs you, listen. You might not agree and you can always have your day in court. But right there and then, follow his/her orders.

Sorry Inna, I still don't get it. If Tchaka had showed up in my neighborhood if McCain won the election in his "Irish for O'bama" shirt. I guarantee he would have been safe and would not have been arrested to protect his safety. If you had shown up to protest the McCain rally (as many did), you would not have been harmed. What was the "potentially bad situation" of a McCain supporter walking down the streets of center city Philadelphia? Why would any of these Obama supporters "kicked his face in" simply for walking down the street?

Probably 'cause he was in the city of brotherly love, and he wasn't no brother... Sorry Tchaka, couldn't help it:-) Michelle - read Tchaka's response - it was not a rally or an organized protest or anything of the sort. It was a bunch of Obama supporters celebrating Obama's victory, and the Mc/Palin shirt wearing dude was clearly in the wrong place...

LOL!!! Good one Inna. :-)

Michelle - I could say the same for my neighborhood. But did it occur in your neighborhood or mine? Are you even *in* Philly?

I read Tchaka's comment. What is the difference? Obviously the police knew that there would be some kind of public reaction (celebratory or otherwise) and were prepared for it. Wrong place? He was in front of City Hall, smack dab in the center of Philly, which is about as neutral of a place in the city as he could get. But, does the Obama crowd have a right to beat the guy up simply for being in the wrong place?

Tchaka - I was born and raised *in* Philly although I can't see what that has to do with anything... Help me out.

NOV

Michelle:

This is only the beginning. The Dems will continue to remove our freedom of speech (if you have an opposing view.)

We are just seeing how the new messiah will "rule" this nation. With an iron hand, with the help of the liberal propaganda machine and now the local police, to protect the Obama free speech against the opposing view of just one person.

Michelle - I'm pretty much done trying to help you or anyone else out. If you don't get it, you don't get it. You can open your mind and understand what I and others on here have written or you can continue to cling on to your own ideas. If you prefer to keep banging your head, it's your choice. Mike Postel - Yep, the Dems will authorize wiretaps to listen on those with opposing views. Oh wait, that path's already been cleared for them!

Nick - this has nothing to do with Obama. Trust me - there will be plenty to lay at his door in the coming months and years, but this isn't one of them.

Tchaka - let me continue with my Bucs shirt story just so I'm clear. If I go to the game in Philly in my Bucs shirt, in your view (and if that is not the case, then please correct me), the police would be within their rights to arrest me?

Nick:

Soon, there will be late night hit squads to "silence" those who disagree with the leftist regime.

Why was the choir director at Obama's former church, Trinity United Church of Christ murdered? What did he know?

No Simon, use the more appropriate example that I provided. Your example doesn't apply.

I guess there's just a unique situation in Philly - this from AP this morning:)

PHILADELPHIA — The soap operas that fill TV screens across Philadelphia don't stop when the local news begins.

In the past year, anchorwoman Alycia Lane spent the night in jail after scuffling with New York City police. She was fired, although the charges were later dropped.

Her married co-anchorman at CBS affiliate KYW-TV, Larry Mendte, admitted in federal court that he obsessively hacked into her e-mails.

Now, rival station WCAU-TV has its own headache: A 44-year-old anchorman, Vince DeMentri, complained in a court filing that he was fired from the NBC affiliate this summer over an affair with a colleague who got to keep her job. The woman, Lori Delgado, 26, quit last month, saying she was afraid of DeMentri.

Her lawyer wrote in a memo filed Monday in Philadelphia Common Pleas Court that DeMentri "repeatedly hovered" outside Delgado's home, "followed her through the city, confronted her, confronted her husband and acted in a threatening manner." The filing came in response to DeMentri's writ that he plans to sue her and the station for libel.

It's brotherly love, Simon! Maybe AR = Philly. LOL!! :-)

Did anyone see the UNEDITED version of this video? I found it below the one above, it starts with a guy in a blue shirt sitting and talking. This video shows that the McCain supporter had some sort of sword down the back of his shirt. Fake, real, I don't know. But it does change things a bit.

It still doesn't change the way I feel about how the chanting crowd is acting like a bunch of nuts.

Just FAIR reporting here!

I have to disagree with Inna on something. Tchaka will probably be on her side. The 200 m is not the best race, the 800m is.

Kevin - the 200m is the best race there is:-)

John, thank you for finding that. Well, now I am just gonna restate that the dude was obviously not too bright, and since it looks like he was actually pulled out of the crowd becasue of the sword (toy) in the back of his teeshirt - he got what he deserved. It's no different than brandishing a fake firearm in a public space.

Excuse me. It is clear as glass that by far the best race is the 400m. Why is this even being discussed?

Simon,

Is it stained glass?

Funny guy John - well I could say "clear as day" but that doesn't work in California. OK - as clear as night follows day (except in Alaska) that the 400M is the best race.

Tchaka - I "get it" just fine. Speaking of having an "open mind" you were the one who questioned whether or not I was even *in Philly* as if being in the suburbs automatically disqualified my opinion. I'm surprised you didn't ask me if I even knew any *black people*.

John/Inna - I did see the unedited version with the sword. It doesn't change things for me a bit. Clearly the sword wasn't the issue and everyone knew it was fake. Plus one of the people in the crowd pulled it out and took it.

Simon - Philly has its share of local news anchor sagas. There are actually a lot of others.

Why would I ask you something that stupid? For all I know you could be black. And what does race have to do with this?

I'm black.

I'm back.

I'm barack.

It's a rap.

Are we freestyling here?

That's a wrap:)

I thought that would be a rap? The wrap just means we're done.

Maybe Jason has a sandwich on his mind.

Exactly.

I am purple and I like shoes:-)

I thought you were from another planet? At least that's what you told your kids.

Tchaka - And for all you knew I could be *in Philly*. You still never explained how that was relevant. I've noticed that my opinions in political discussions are often discounted based on stupid assumptions that people make. And besides judging from the fact that I voted for McCain, there is only a 3% chance that I am black. Anyway, no one has still managed to convince me that this guy should have been arrested. The first time I watched this video on Tim's blog, my 4 yo daughter happened to walk in the room and asked me what the cops were doing and if he was a "bad guy"? How could I have answered these questions without honestly without tainted her view on the world?

Simon - yep, from Eptos 7. Good memory you've got there:-) Michelle, the dude was in a crowd with a hadle of a weapon sticking out from behind his shirt. I believe, from watching the video not on this blog, that cops when they approached him didn't even see what was on his shirt, since the slogan was only written on the front, if I recall correctly. Why would you assume that "everyone knew it was fake"? There was a kid on my block recently who got locked up for 'brandishing' a firearm. The kid is 14 and the firearm was an air pistol you buy at Wal Mart, but he took it out of his pants in the public park, and ended up cuffed and booked. Cops are not supposed to go on assuming the best, they have to assume the worst. The dude, in short, was dumb to do what he did, and I assure you he would have ended up just as arrested if he were here, in the suburbs of a nifty sleepy town I am in.

Found this in a Philly Newspaper: McCain T-shirt gets man cuffed, stuffed 11/08/08 08:00 AM A man wearing a McCain-Palin T-shirt during a Philadelphia celebration on election night was arrested, cuffed and stuffed into a police cruiser, and supporters said it was for no more than wearing the endorsement of the GOP nominees for president and vice-president. Philadelphia Police Sgt. Ray Evers told WND the man, whose name was not released, was arrested for disorderly conduct and public drunkenness. "He was causing large crowds to form around him," Evers said, adding that he also "was not listening to police commands." "He was asked several times to leave the area," the sergeant said. "He refused several commands from police to leave the area."

Michelle - It's pretty easy, you tell your daughter that when a police officer tells someone to do something, that person is supposed to follow those orders. I'm pretty sure that won't taint her view on the world.

Linda Mae - Yep. It was clear on the clip too that he refused several commands.

Linda Mae - Just curious what Philly newspaper that was in?

I guess the moral of this story is - it's just not permissable for ole drunk white dudes to wear McCain/Palin shirts around Philly or anyplace they might run into Obamites. Clearly the Obamites could not be expected to control themselves. As Inna said - he was clearly in the wrong place. The cops should have thumped him soundly for it because nobody would care. Now had the shoe been on the other foot, there would have been national outrage. Jesse & Al would have flown to town immediately crying those big ole crocodile tears. The ACLU & NAACP would have sued the Phiily police. The media would have been all up in McCains face about his racist campaign again. Except for the fact that he never would have been in danger at a McCain campaign no matter how drunk or stupid he was. Woops - was I not PC enough?

OK, who hacked Gene's account and wrote that?

I'm tired Tchaka. I'm tired of Henry Paulsen and footing the bill for every loser and fraudster and political hack out there. I'm tired of being lied right to my face and then laughed at by the same people for believing them in the first place. I'm tired of everybody having rights except me. I'm tired of paying my mortgage and my bills so some other schmuck can default and get bailed-out and get their credit card debt forgiven if they ran them up sky high.

I'm genuinely hopeful that the Obamites were right because I'm tired of the way it is right now. I'm not optimistic about it, but I'm genuinely hopeful. I think there will be a lot more bad decision made and that we will institutionalize a more comprehensive welfare state at a continuing cost burden to me and my children - who have actually worked hard for what we have. I better go have a drink. I'm in a pissy mood. Maybe it's jet lag from Orlando. I'd better get off my keyboard. Sorry.

Scary- but would we react the same way if the roles were reversed?

Gene - You're comment is spot on. The funny thing is that you don't have to worry about being PC because you are merely rephrasing what was stated by those who supported Obama.

Dave - If the roles were reversed see Gene's comment above. That's exactly what would have happened.

NOV

Gene,

I hear you man! It is getting old. All of it.

Great question!

On a similar note, a local judge in Portland just cleared a guy yesterday of charges of his riding his bike nude in public. We do that here and feel it is an acceptable form of personal expression. I am very happy with the ruling and hope we can get back to NOT repressing expression because it's a platform we disagree with.

btw... very cute banter above :)

Jen - I almost thought you were kidding until I read the article. Very interesting tidbit about Portland, although it does sound a little uncomfortable. But people should have the right to express themselves how they want, as long as they are not breaking the law.

NOV

There are a few things here...

If the roles were reversed, there would be protests in the street about how the Obama supporter was bullied and intimidated by the police. You could expect Al Sharpton to show up... and bring cameras.
Wading into the crowd isn't the smartest thing that guy could have done with his evening.
If the guy was actually charged with anything, he should sue the city for enough money to have it renamed after him.
I think it is hilarious how angry the crowd of liberal, open and accepting, bi-partisans are. Democrats and liberals are always calling out Republicans and conservatives as haters... but you never hear about them rioting when they don't get what they want.

The police were smart removing the guy from the scene. But the biggest question would be around the actions of the police afterwards.

Time for another reality check for Lane..

1. If the guy was charged with anything, it was for disobeying police orders. He couldn't sue his way out of a paper bag for that.

2. Whoever said this was a "liberal, open and accepting, bi-partisan" crowd? You let your bias get in the way of common sense.

Tchaka - This is Philly, you can sue for whatever you want. This is the same city where the parents let a girl with cerebral palsy starve to death, were charged with murder, and then sued the city because they felt the case workers from the Department of Human Services didn't do their job.

Michelle - In the United States anyone can pretty much sue for anything, we're a very litigious country. But he won't get anywhere. I've had a more serious issue with an officer a few years back and I was advised by my attorney not to pursue anything and he listed reasons why I likely wouldn't get the result I seeked. Meanwhile all of us on here see clearly that this fool disobeyed police orders.

"Meanwhile all of us on here see clearly that this fool disobeyed police orders."

Who is all of us? Me, Lane, Gene, Simon, Fred, Hugh. Mike, Nicholas, John, Tim?

And yes I understand that we are a very litigious country, so let me clarify that in Philly you can sue for stupid things and win.

Clearly the guy in the shirt was no threat to anybody. I think the cops took the easy way out by arresting him because had the crowd gotten out of control and kicked his face in as someone wrote (you know because he was really taunting them with his horrible shirt) , then this would have been all over the news.

All of us = everyone with decent hearing who played the clip and actually listened to it.

The ability to sue for stupid things and win is not limited to Philly. It can occur anywhere. But is using the exception really worth debating this point for?

I agree with you that the guy didn't look like a threat to anyone, but I never insinuated he was either. I'm more concerned for his safety than anyone else's. Either way, that's not why he was arrested. He was arrested because he disobeyed the police orders to move. Orders that were given more than once - again, it's clear on the tape. Case closed.

My hearing is fine and I listened to it several times. I can't speak for the other people named but I am going to assume they are not wearing Miracle Ear either.

Would the case have been so clearly closed if this were an Obama supporter being arrested for walking through a crowd of McCain supporters? That is the question.

Well Michelle, I'm not sure what Obama or McCain have to do with the issue at hand. Other than a response to Mike Saunders, you do not see me mentioning either politician. Furthermore, if you go back to the 2nd comment on this blog and read the first sentence, you'll know my answer to your question.

NOV

And if you read Gene's comment you'll know the answer to mine.

Your answer to which question?

ugh! never mind

Tchaka, have we heard of McCain supporters trying to actually lynch people in Obama Tshirts? I mean aside from the reporter that lied about hearing something that NOBODY ELSE heard... Have we had a bunch of hate filled conservatives storm gay bars because they don't like what they stand for? Do we regularly see Right Wing extremists violently protest?

In this case, the guy steps on the street and the victorious Obama supporters (supporters of a guy calling for tolerance, bi-partisanship and acceptance)... Boy, they really got the message.

And so a guy can't get his car... gets arrested...

I can almost gaurantee he won't be charged. He was removed to protect him from the "peaceful celebrants"...

That's fine if he doesn't get charged, I was never in favor of his arrest. Just because he's a dumbass doesn't mean I want to see him locked up. And if you agree that he was removed for protection, then this conversation is unnecessary - it means you too see the light.

As for McCain supporters....yadda, yadda, yadda.....I couldn't care and you're wasting your time preaching. No one here supports violence, the crowd did not act violently towards the guy and if they did, I'm sure no one here would support it. Moreover your partisan comments are getting you nowhere. There have been a number of negative and racists acts committed throughout the country since the election, should we attribute that to McCain? People act stupid all the time and neither candidate's policies or beliefs have anything to do with that.

The guy could have walked around to his car, asked for escort or something else. He didn't listen to the police and got arrested. End of story. Any attempts at a direct political connection is misdirection and nothing else.

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