Special offer

Mortgage Professional or Used Car Salesman? Why it Pays to Know the Difference.(UPDATED)

By
Mortgage and Lending with Above All Financial Services -Pennsylvania Mortgage Broker

When shopping for a mortgage loan to purchase or refinance a home, if the loan officer begins the application process asking  "What payment are you comfortable with?", don't walk away...  Run!  

Most of us know that the #1 rule of negotiating for a car is to NOT answer the "what can you afford" question.  Otherwise, when we answer $350 per month we end up driving off of the lot with a $350 per month payment for 36 months...  and a 10 year old Ford Escort.  Once the salesman knows what you are willing to pay, there is no incentive to give you the best deal and the difference between what you can qualify for  and what you are willing to pay,  equals BIG PROFIT.

Used car dealer in Miami by riverspring.

Did you know however that it works the same way with mortgages?  Some loan officers want clients to believe that it doesn't matter what the interest rate is, as long as you are comfortable with the payment.  Therefore, if you are comfortable with a $2000 payment, then it shouldn't matter if you are charged 20% interest on the loan.  But the simple fact of the matter is that it does, and used car salesman tactics like this have no place in a mortgage transaction.  Why?  Because again the salesman pockets the difference between the rate for which you qualify and the rate for which you are willing to pay.  Now, don't get me wrong, I am not expecting anyone to work for free, but it seems to me that when a salesperson asks how much you are willing to pay it is not because he is taking your best interest into consideration, he is only trying to figure out  how much he can charge.  Not only that, but most first-time homebuyers and even some more experienced buyers have no idea what they realistically can afford and it is the responsibility of the mortgage professional to help walk them through the process so that they can figure out together what is in the best interest of the customer.

In his blog Jeff Belonger attempts to make a case that we shouldn't get too excited about a potential drop in interest rate to 4.5% based on his belief that we should focus on payment not rate.  Now I  do believe there is some validity to the point, but these reasons are not addressed in his post.  I have previously written about why we should not focus solely on rates when I wrote about adjustable rate mortgages which were being deceptively marketed  and about a customer who missed out on refinancing because she wanted a lower rate than what she qualified for.   And of course, the lowest rate in the world doesn't mean anything if you have to pay loads of fees and points in order to get it.  However, in this case, the sole argument against the lower rate seemed to be that the potential savings were "not that spectacular", which is a short-sighted argument at best.

I will use the example of the payment differences with a lower interest rate for a $120,000 loan even though I do think the $200,000 loan example is more accurate because it is closer to the median home price in the US.  When you look at the real advantages of a lower interest rate  on a $120,000 loan you will realize that the savings are significant and will be even more so as the loan amount increases.

EDIT: These are the same numbers that Jeff Belonger used in his blog which I linked to above.  I thought this was OBVIOUS due to the fact that I referenced Jeff's blog, linked to it, referred to it as "the example" instead of "my example" and made it clear that I didn't think using a loan amount of $120,000 was the best example due to the median home price in the US being much higher.  However, Jeff has accused me of plagiarism so it case it wasn't clear before, these are Jeff's numbers not mine!!!!

Furthermore, the point of this post was not to attack anyone professionally or to imply that anyone was less than honest or professional.  I was merely pointing out that applying for a mortgage loan, much like buying a car, buying a house, shopping at a flea market etc.  involves the art of negotiating.  While negotiating , the person who speaks first and lets the other know what he is willing to pay usually loses.  I prefer to use a consultative sales approach, where the client and I determine together what best meets their needs.  If you reference the chart below (again Jeff's numbers), if a client tells you initially that he is looking for a $720 payment on a $120,000 loan that would give him a 6% rate.  What incentive does the loan officer have to offer him the 5.5% rate should he qualify for that if he already knows you would pay $720? 

Mortgage Amount

$120,000

$120,000

$120,000

 

Interest Rate

 

6.00%

 

5.50%

 

4.50%

 

P & I Payment

 

$719.00

 

$681.00

 

$608.00

Difference in Payment

--

($38.00)

 ($111.00)

As you can see in the above chart, the difference in payment on a $120,000 loan with a 6% interest rate and a 4.5% rate is $111.00 per month.  Now some might say this savings is minimal or "nothing spectacular" but I beg to differ:

  • First, with the economy the way it is, $111 per month is a huge savings for those on a tight budget and could possibly make the difference between someone being able to afford a home and continuing to rent. 

 

  • Second, discounting the savings as only $111 per month ignores the effect of compounding interest over the life of the loan.  At 6% you will pay $139,005 in interest over the life of the loan, at 4.5% $98,888.  That is a savings of over $40,000 in interest alone!

 

  • Third, let's look at the difference in  purchasing power.  Assuming our borrower only qualified for a $720 monthly payment (I am ignoring taxes and insurance).  At 6% they would qualify for a $120,000 loan, but at 4.5% they would qualify for $142,000, a difference of $22,000.  That may mean the difference between buying a fixer-upper and a home that has been completely remodeled, or a 3 bedroom home instead of 2.

 

  • Last, one of the  things I try to do whenever I refinance a loan is try to show the client how to take the money they are saving, and pay the loan off early.  In this case our client is comfortable with the $719 monthly payment and the 6% interest but we take advantage of the 4.5% interest rate and take the $111 savings and apply it as an extra principal payment each month.  By doing this, the client can pay the loan off 7 years and 11 months earlier and save $30,000 in interest over the life of the loan.

You can see from the examples above that the potential savings with a drop in interest rate are far greater than the $111 per month.  Let's not forget that it is rate that brings customers through the door and makes our phone start ringing.  People love to get a bargain.  That's why we buy things at Walmart for $9.88 instead of $10.00 at other stores and while we'll drive 2 miles down the road to the $1.77 gas station instead of the one that charges $1.83, even though if you don't drive an SUV  the real price difference on a full tank of gas is less than a buck.  

It puzzles me why someone in the real estate/mortgage business would think that this proposed 4.5% rate program is not a good idea, especially after all the bad news we've been hearing lately, this may finally be what we need to get the housing market back on track.  Keep in mind that this was only a proposal and it is too early to know if or when this will actually occur or the specifics of the program.  I do  however think that with or without the 4.5% rate that interest rates are still considerably low and if you are looking to buy a new home or refinance your existing loan that it is a great time to get the ball rolling.  Contact me today to set up a consultation,  or visit www.aboveallmortgage.com.  I can promise you professional service, the best programs to meet your needs, and no used car salesman tactics!

 

 

 

(Photo courtesy of Flickr user riverspring)

                                                                                                                                                                           

Written by Michelle Chamberlain, Above All Financial Services

Homeowners, get the mortgage loan you need at www.aboveallmortgage.com and www.mortgage411center.com.

 

Business owners, get the cash you need at www.ezmerchantadvance.com

Comments(32)

Robert D. Ashby
Cruise Planners of South Florida - Plantation, FL
Providing Personalized Travel

Michelle,

Normally I do not have to comment more than once to prove my point, but it is clear your post and your comments are portraying two different viewpoints.

Your post is all about saying any mortgage professional that starts with the "what payment can you afford question" is someone you should run away from, yet your comment above says that it is OK.  Then you prove exactly what I said, which is most clients have no idea what is realistic and affordable, typically because they have never thought about it before.

As for the "attack", I am not defending Jeff, but it is very clear that you are equating him with the "used car salesman", or at least that is how it is portrayed in your article.  You talk about running away from the "used car salesman" then specifically use Jeff's post as an example of that approach, at least that is how it comes across.  Jeff does mention a name, but makes it clear he is in disagreement and does not resort to name calling, quite a different approach.

Now, Jeff didn't do a "great job" explaining the whole intent of his post, but he was stating that finding out what type of payment the client can afford can save you a lot of time and may be a better starting point since a "comfortable payment" is likely lower than what they can qualify for. Additionally, it is important to get clients to stop focusing on the "lowest rate and fees" as that can actually prove more costly to them over time and yes, the payment is what they have to live with regardless of the rate.  He was also showing the fact that rates dropping to 4.5% is going to get buyers out in force as the savings really doesn't amount to much.

While lower rates do mean lower payments on the same size loans, getting the lowest rate and payment doesn't necessarily result in the most savings over time.  After all, the lowest rate on the wrong loan program will prove more costly than a higher right on the right loan program.

I am glad you like to take a consultative approach in the way you do business.  I do the same thing, including using a thorough questionnaire that goes way beyond the 1003, but that is me and is certainly not the best approach for everyone.  Educating the public, not just our clients, is what we all need to be doing, and doing so in a professional way.

Dec 09, 2008 06:35 AM
Michelle Chamberlain
Above All Financial Services -Pennsylvania Mortgage Broker - Secane, PA
Suburban Philadelphia Mortgage Broker

Robert,

I'm not sure how my comment and posts disagree.  I never said this should not be discussed, only that asking it initially leads consumers to potentially be taken advantage of.  And of course when presented as an argument against a low rate, it only supports by opinion that this was more about bottom line

As I stated in the other post, what if I am "comfortable" with a $900 payment which would put my interest rate at 6%?  Knowing that $900 is ok, gives the loan officer no incentive to offer the client the 5.75% or even the 5.5% they qualify for.   This is not usually a problem with highly qualified buyers since they know they can shop anywhere but it does present a problem with less qualified buyers.  If you don't believe that a loan officer can use this info to exploit the customer, ask any former subprime lender how much yield spread he used to make during those days.

Overall, I am surprised that so many people disagreed with me here.  Had I only talked about not stating what you were willing to pay during car buying, making an offer on a house, or even bargaining at a flea market I'm sure no one would have spoken up.  But since I dared to expose that some lenders might use this info to boost their bottom line I've caused an uproar.  I can only speculate as to  why some took this so personally.

Dec 09, 2008 07:24 AM
K C
Independent Leadership & Financial Fitness Consultant - Pleasant Grove, UT

Michelle,

 

Your already assuming allot in regards to clients or what the loan officer is doing in regards to educating their borrower in regards to the process.  What Jeff is doing is Qualifing his borrower, it's basic sales 101...it's not manuplative, nor is it unfair to the borrower.  What makes me scratch my head with this whole argument is this fixation on rate.  Client is getting hammered with radio and TV add's from "bait and hook (crook)" mortgage shops that are always better then anything you can really offer at the moment.  So just starting out the conversation with, "we'll my best rate Mr. Client is 5.75%", is not only stupid but it's counter productive to the whole consultation.

I guess we do it all wrong here in the Rocky Mountains.  But I'm more interested in how my client is handling their current bills (credit), I want to know what their real take home income is, not just the gross.  I want to know if they have any savings, I want to know how MUCH THEY WILL FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH in regards to a new payment.  If that sounds like an auto salesmen, then oh well.  Mortgage Originating is SALES, hate to break it to you.  If it wasn't, they could just jump on the internet and pick a rate.  But bottom line they want real people to discuss real issues, and it doesn't always center around rate.

So this whole debate with Jeff is silly, furthermore I don't blame him for ripping you in his response with the way you attack him in your post.  Very unprofessional behavior in this type of setting.

But that's my 50 cents.

 

BTW....any ethical mortgage orginator is ALWAYS going to put his client first in regards to rate or program.  Your comment that a loan officer is going to not give the best rate is only relevant to "con artists", which I do not consider salesmen or orginators.  What I find even more appalling are those LO's who are always offering their client the world, then can't produce when it comes time to do so.  This happens more often then not when you just start offering the best rate on your rate sheet, as you should know, there are so many things that happen between the time you take the application to the time you get ready to lock the loan.  Underwriting factors could put you in a bind as well, the important thing is to focus on the clients NEEDS, then provide a solution to meet those needs.  How it's done is not rocket science, it just needs to be done in a professional manner.

Dec 11, 2008 06:53 PM
Michelle Chamberlain
Above All Financial Services -Pennsylvania Mortgage Broker - Secane, PA
Suburban Philadelphia Mortgage Broker

Karl,

I'm glad that you point out that this is "basic sales 101".  Are you arguing for me or against me?  I ask you then what the point is of basic sales training if not to close the deal and maximize commission? 

I agree that this whole thing is silly but I will disagree that it is a debate. A debate would imply civility and reason both of which have been thrown out the window here.  How else can you explain the absurd allegation of plagiarism of numbers by the same person who copied and pasted my words but neither linked to or mentioned who wrote it?  Guess I should call my copyright lawyer now right?

Also you are entitled to your opinion as to whether any of this was warranted but I can assure you that what was displayed publicly is only half of what went on privately.  In the interest of "professionalism" I'll leave it at that.

BTW - I'm really surprised that a handle full of people on here got so up in arms about my "used car salesman" comparison.  It reminds me of someone yelling "moron" into a crowd of 100 people and 2 or 3 people turn around and reply "you talking to me?" ready to start a fight, while the rest of the people ignore it and go on about their business.  That is to say, if you have to try so hard to defend your reputation, there is probably a reason behind it.

Just my "99 cents".

Dec 12, 2008 05:48 AM
Anonymous
just sitting back and watching

Michelle - I have been sitting back and reading all the comments on your blog and Jeff's. I will say this. Sure, Jeff did make a comment or two, but overall, he let it go. You talk about being professional and about debating?  You didn't debate in most cases. You attacked him, plain and simple.  yes, I am hiding, in fear that you would leash out and attack me also. You have seemed to have missed the points on more than one occaisson.  PS. From reading Robert's comment, he was against you. Just as so many other things that you missed.

Dec 12, 2008 10:41 AM
#17
Michelle Chamberlain
Above All Financial Services -Pennsylvania Mortgage Broker - Secane, PA
Suburban Philadelphia Mortgage Broker

Anonymous Lurker aka just sitting back and watching,

I'm not sure just how closely you've been "sitting back and watching" but other than updating my post per the other blogger's threat request to give credit for the calculation, and responding to those who comment here , I'm not sure would gives you the impression that I have not let this go.

 On the otherhand, I've heard "through the grapevine" that the other person in question has written several more blogs pertaining to this subject and has resorted to making comments about me in other people's posts. 

Dec 12, 2008 03:05 PM
Brian Brady
Matthews Capital Markets - Tampa, FL
858-699-4590

It puzzles me why someone in the real estate/mortgage business would think that this proposed 4.5% rate program is not a good idea, especially after all the bad news we've been hearing lately, this may finally be what we need to get the housing market back on track.

I'm not going to defend Jeff's argument but I will address your conclusion and explain why I, as a mortgage professional and a taxpayer, abhor the Government's intervention in markets; it's evil.  What you're supporting is Rotarian Socialism; legislation or government action to the benefit of the members of the Rotary club and at the expense of the consumer. 

That's unfair; patently unfair.  It's unfair to the tens of millions or responsible homeowers who saved up money, paid their bills, and bought homes within their means.  It's unfait the tens of millions of renters who patiently saved their money, and waited for the irrational exuberance to end so that they could buy a home for a rational price.

Its rewarding the feckless few because the industry took leave of its senses and served them instead of protecting their shareholders by adhering to the flinty principles associated with responsible mortgage banking. Your endorsment of these programs is an endorsement of theft; theft by fiat.  I would understand if you said "Well, this sucks but I'll play ball because it benefits me".  The transparency of "working within the system" is understandable.  Endorsement, however, is an implication that the reckless lending practices of the past should be forgiven and forgotten. 

I prefer to be associated with "used-car salesmen" than institutional theft.

Dec 14, 2008 05:51 AM
Michelle Chamberlain
Above All Financial Services -Pennsylvania Mortgage Broker - Secane, PA
Suburban Philadelphia Mortgage Broker

Brian,

Thank you for your comment.  I actually agree with you and have commented such in other discussions on this topic (which perhaps was deleted) I even state in my response above that there were many valid arguments against the rate, but that this one failed to make the case.  However we were not discussing the economic/political aspect only whether the 4.5% rate would get people off of the fence.

As I see in Jeff's recent post (as he continues to run this topic into the ground) that  a former client contacted him because "she heard about the lower rates".  Of course in an attempt to defend his credibility he unknowngly proves my point but since I imagine he sold her payment not rate anyway...

That being said, if the 4.5% government subsidized rate does ever come to fruition, I imagine that you will not be  taking part in it as a protest against "Rotarian Socialism" and the "evil government intervention" correct?

Michelle

Dec 14, 2008 06:45 AM
Brian Brady
Matthews Capital Markets - Tampa, FL
858-699-4590

 

That being said, if the 4.5% government subsidized rate does ever come to fruition, I imagine that you will not be  taking part in it as a protest against "Rotarian Socialism" and the "evil government intervention" correct?

Goodness, no.  I take my job as a financial adviser seriously and so should you.  While I despise this whole government intervention, I'll do what's best for my clients...

BUT, you'll not see me make protectionist statements like you've made.

As I see in Jeff's recent post (as he continues to run this topic into the ground) that  a former client contacted him because "she heard about the lower rates".  Of course in an attempt to defend his credibility he unknowngly proves my point but since I imagine he sold her payment not rate anyway...

Ironically, Michelle I found that both you and Jeff are missing the "ask payment" argument.  Jeff is correct and you are incorrect about asking about payment first.  Jeff misses the whole suitability argument and you try to paint it as some sort of nefarious practice.  Suitability analyzes risk as well as reward in any financial transaction.  The first thing you should as a client is "what payment do you want?" because it sets expectations and communicates a client's risk tolerance and financial sophistication.

Let me give you a real life example.  One borrower was dead-set on a payment because it was equivalent to his rent.  What he didn't know is that mortgage interest and local property taxes were tax deductible.  He wasn't aware that his HR department could adjust his withholding to account for the added tax benefit.  He was set on affordability as it relates to cash flow.  After educating him about the tax benefits of home ownership, he realized that he could afford a whole new range of properties which offer greater upside potential.

Your article here debases the most important of questions to suggest that it is a simple sales tactic.  It is an attempt to distinguish a level of sophistication and expertise at the expense of the most basic of financial planning precepts.

Dec 14, 2008 10:27 PM
Michelle Chamberlain
Above All Financial Services -Pennsylvania Mortgage Broker - Secane, PA
Suburban Philadelphia Mortgage Broker

Brian,

Aside from name, tel# how can I help you , I still take issue with the blanket statement that "what payment do you want ?' should be the first question, or that there should even be a first question. Let's just accept the fact that we all sell differently, and if this is your first question, and you truly have the client's best interest at heart you should be able to convince them that this is not "a used-car salesman tactic" regardless of what they read on my blog. 

Regarding the tax deductibility issue I'm afraid you've opened up a whole other can of worms.

Unless you are a CPA or tax accountant I would hesitate to recommend any payment based on the possibility of a tax savings since in my opinion the tax benefits of homeownership are both misunderstood and overstated.  I have seen stated by both LO's and Realtors that mortgage interest and property taxes are tax deductible.  This is true IF you itemize your deductions and then it is only a benefit to the extent that you interest/taxes exceed the standard deduction. 

For example, the 2007 standard deduction for married borrowers was $10,700, meaning you get this deduction regardless of whether you itemize or own a house.  Therefore there is only a real tax savings on any amount paid over the $10,700 amount.  The real savings in most cases is negligible and hardly enough to bump anyone into a whole new range of properties. 

 

Dec 15, 2008 02:06 PM
Brian Brady
Matthews Capital Markets - Tampa, FL
858-699-4590

I still take issue with the blanket statement that "what payment do you want ?' should be the first question, or that there should even be a first question. Let's just accept the fact that we all sell differently,

Fair enough.  You've just explained why this article is a carefully crafted advertisement targeting a prominent competitor in your market and that, I believe, is poor form.

The real savings in most cases is negligible and hardly enough to bump anyone into a whole new range of properties.

True...and false; a matter pf perspective.  Most Californians throw charitable contributions, property taxes, and healthcare expenses (above the cap) and they exceed the standard deduction.  I would think your market is similar, in Delaware County.  Isn't that the Main Line?

Dec 15, 2008 03:26 PM
Michelle Chamberlain
Above All Financial Services -Pennsylvania Mortgage Broker - Secane, PA
Suburban Philadelphia Mortgage Broker

Ok, enough is enough with this JEFF!!! Unless you now refer to yourself in the third person you just left the following comment on my blog and then quickly deleted it, attempting to be anonymous yet forgot to logout!!!

There's a new comment on the blog entry Mortgage Professional or Used Car Salesman? Why it Pays to Know the Difference.(UPDATED)

Comment by Jeff Belonger -- The FHA Expert.com -- FHA Loans -- FHA mortgages - USDA loans :

Michelle - heard it through the grapevine?  lol   This whole thing has been sad and I wonder about your professionalism. I especially loved the fact that you never answered Jeff's question (several times), but instead, you attacked him on his two misspelled words.  Sad.. yet you said this in a comment.

"I'm not sure just how closely you've been "sitting back and watching" but other than updating my post per the other blogger's threat request to give credit for the calculation, and responding to those who comment here , I'm not sure would gives you the impression that I have not let this go."

I am still trying to understand that one. But in any case, your argument to Brian's comment is in left field.  Asking about what payment you are comfortable is not a blanket statement. And you talk about not letting this go. Huh? You are all over the place. Besides, Jeff's other blogs are all different, each having a meaning. I noticed that your comments seem to be one blog to late.

Please follow this link to respond: http://activerain.com/blogsview/825853/Mortgage-Professional-or-Used-Car-Salesman-Why-it-Pays-to-Know-the-DifferenceUPDATED

---
Unsubscribe from notifications for this post

Dec 15, 2008 03:28 PM
Michelle Chamberlain
Above All Financial Services -Pennsylvania Mortgage Broker - Secane, PA
Suburban Philadelphia Mortgage Broker

Brian,

Sorry I missed your comment having had to reply to the comment above by Jeff which was deleted as he was attempting to be "not Jeff" but I guess the system caught up to his game.

You said: "a carefully crafted advertisement targeting a prominent competitor in your market and that, I believe, is poor form".

Sorry, I just don't get this.  Who is the prominent competitor I'm targeting? 

And yes you are correct my market is similar (in some areas).  Though I am not quite the Mainline my property taxes alone exceed the deduction. This doesn't apply to a lot of areas though, thus my belief that this beneft is oversold.   I prefer the CYA appoach (even though I do understand the tax issue better than most) I do not give out advice that I am not licensed to give in order to persuade people to take a higher payment amount.  Just the way I do business.

Overall, I have enjoyed finally having a civil discourse about this topic but I think we'll have to agree to disagree.   I would appreciate if either you or your colleague can explain the comment above by Jeff talking about Jeff though before we put this to rest.

Dec 15, 2008 03:54 PM
Robert D. Ashby
Cruise Planners of South Florida - Plantation, FL
Providing Personalized Travel

Michelle,

Brian is absolutely correct (usually is).

Once again, I don't normally get caught up in spending too much time in discussions on AR posts much anymore (most I don't even bother to comment on in the first place).  But here is something that begs me to wonder as you responded to Brian's remarks...

You have mentioned that you take a "consultative" approach with your clients, yet you fail to educate them on the tax code you are aware of?  You don't have to be a tax professional to try and help someone save money.  As Brian pointed out, once a person or family goes down the road of itemized deductions, there is a whole slew of deductions that can be added to maximize it.  Charitable contributions, property taxes, healthcare expenses (above the cap) as Brian mentioned are some, others include even business related expenses (above the cap), sales taxes, and what about those with small businesses?

My point is, if you take a consultative approach, especially as a mortgage planner/financial planner, you must look at everything, even if only a "potential deduction", in order to develop the best solution for your client.  Failure to do so essentially makes you no different than a typical mortgage originator who plays either the rate game or the payment game to get the loan.

Dec 16, 2008 01:04 AM
Michelle Chamberlain
Above All Financial Services -Pennsylvania Mortgage Broker - Secane, PA
Suburban Philadelphia Mortgage Broker

Robert,

Again, there is a difference between mentioning that there is a potential deduction of mortgage interest/property taxes but to consult your tax advisor (CYA approach) and qualifying someone for a higher payment amount based on the potential savings.

Question for you, does this "approach" fly with underwriting?  That is if my client is already at the maximum allowable ratio for the product in which I am placing him, can I make the case for a higher payment based on the perceived benefit of the higher tax savings? 

 

Dec 16, 2008 03:13 AM
Robert D. Ashby
Cruise Planners of South Florida - Plantation, FL
Providing Personalized Travel

Michelle,

What did my last comment have to do with payment?  Nothing.  Don't confuse what I am saying.

My point is not to "qualify" someone for a higher payment using tax advantages, whether real or potential, rather to incorporate them into an overall mortgage and financial plan, just as Brian was saying.  For most clients, the ability to deduct numerous items way beyond the mortgage is real, not just potential, and yes it is best to work with a tax professional to ensure those facts.  However, did you know that most tax preparers, and even many well known tax professionals, are not familiar with ALL of the tax deductions?  As a mortgage professional using a consultative approach, you should be pointing out these tax deductions to them as "added value".

Since you brought up payment again, I will address that statement here.  A comfortable payment is never going to be as high as one qualifies for, but it is imperative to know for the mortgage professional.  Yes, a lower rate means a lower payment on a particular loan product.  BUT A LOWER RATE ON THE WRONG LOAN PRODUCT IS MORE COSTLY THAN A HIGHER RATE ON BEST LOAN PRODUCT.  Besides, clients should be living within a budget, so a payment is needed to work the budget, regardless of the rate.

I have wasted enough time restating the same thing to clarify what you tend to confuse.

Dec 16, 2008 03:49 AM
Michelle Chamberlain
Above All Financial Services -Pennsylvania Mortgage Broker - Secane, PA
Suburban Philadelphia Mortgage Broker

Robert,

I'm not confusing anything.  Of course this appoach has everything to do with payment, and trying to sell someone on a higher a payment based on the overstated benefits of interest writeoffs.  Or am I suddenly to believe that in an industry where 90% of lo's aren't even trained about mortgages properly they are suddenly now qualified to give financial planning advice as well?

I think I feel another post coming on... "Beware of Loan Officers who Try to Pretend They are Financial Planners". 

Seriously, Robert I don't know enough about your qualifications or Brian's to judge your appoach.  For all I know you are both CPA's, CFPs, MBA's, and PhD's. But I ask you if the average loan officer whose training does not got beyond taking an app and reading a rate sheet is qualified to give such advice?

Is it any wonder why so many Americans are now faced with foreclosure and stuck with payments they cannot afford?

Oh, and I am still waiting for a clarification of the "not so anonymous comment" above.  One has to wonder why anyone would have to stoop to such tactics just to prove a point?

Dec 16, 2008 04:43 AM
Anonymous
Darin "D-Money"

Hello Michelle,

I have been sitting back idley by, watching these salvos going back n forth, and wanted today to finally chime in and ask you a few questions if you dont mind.

How long have you been in business?  I looked on your profile, and unless I am dumb, it doesnt say? 

How long have you been a mortgage lender?  Are you a broker, or correspondent? 

I only ask these questions because a couple of the people that have been commenting on your blog are incredibly experienced and knowledgeable, and extremely credible.  One of the people that had been commenting periodically supported you at the beginning, then, your negativity and lack of industry knowledge turned HIM against you!  Perception is reality my friend!  A philosophy is one thing, but you can never trade it for experience!  I debated even commenting on this, as I didnt' want to dignify it with responses, but today it pushed me over the limit!  I will not be commenting or replying to anything you have to say about me, but I DO PUBLISH my name!

1.  It would give you points as I understand it.

2.  That you might start attacking me!  Go ahead btw- I am not afraid!  I welcome all challengers!

3.  That this whole thing might turn even more ridiculous than it has.

4.  In addition, that it would show that your BLOG has created more interest and contraversy than it deserves!  btw.  I probably mispelled that!  you dont have to point that out.

Michelle, I respect the fact that you have a method, and/or philosophy towards lending AND are sticking to it!  I have been in the business for almost 21 years, and started out in a Finance Co, selling 18% rate!  At that point, we were selling monthly savings and interest deductions, NOT rate!  All in all, we were selling payment!  I went from that field, to a bank for approximately 3 years, where I was avp of a loan department!  I then went into brokering for approximately 5 years, then became Branch Manager of one of the largest and most successful Branches for CW home loans!  We were LAST in the company at the time, out of 745 branches!  We rose to #1 in our region, and cracked the top 20 in the country!  Since, I have managed a small mortgage company, and am very proud to say we have weathered the storm, despite the negativity brought on us not only on the wholesale lending side of things, but also the stigmas brought on by mis-reporting in the news, as well as complete & utter morons in the idustry that howl at the moon, just to get attention!  In addition, the news media has also not helped by blatantly ignoring the people that actually KNOW what has happened, and are not looking JUST at numbers!  All that aside, I only tell you this not to boast or brag!  I do so ONLY to help you understand that MOST of the people left in our industry are extremely well versed on most subject matter! You dont have to try and show people how smart you are!

However, our job does require us to have a certain amount of moxy, cockiness, attitude, confidence, and/or borderline arrogance!   TO some degree, these create confidence when appropriately displayed to the customer!

This blog does not accomplish this!  Sadly, it shows you trying to desperately explain yourself, your point of view, and even getting extremely defensive!  You are making yourself look unprofessional, not Jeff, nor anyone else who has commented on this blog. 

I agree, this blog has been taken to new heights of childishness!  But just like when I played hockey, you started it!  You even created a negative stigma within your headline about used car salesman!  I have 3 seperate family members that are Lutherans, good christians, family men, and honest hard working people that OWN car dealerships!  None of them fit YOUR stigma!  Did I take offense to this, no. 

We are all here on Active Rain to share opinions, experiences, as well as the trials & tribulations we go through on an every day basis within the mortgage profession.   I hadn't even read all of the comments back n forth until today, and truly have come to the realization that you are standing by your convictions! 

Personally, I think  you need a new mentor! This is a teaching moment, and will be important in your development if you intend to stay in the industry.b  Im sorry, but it is very clear to me that you just dont get it! 

Good luck .

Darin   "D-Money"

Wisconsin

Dec 16, 2008 05:48 AM
#31
Michelle Chamberlain
Above All Financial Services -Pennsylvania Mortgage Broker - Secane, PA
Suburban Philadelphia Mortgage Broker

I'm sorry unless we are discusing the "greatest hip hop artist of all time",  you cannot expect me to respond seriously to someone who calls himself "D-Money" can you?

 

Dec 16, 2008 06:32 AM
Michelle Chamberlain
Above All Financial Services -Pennsylvania Mortgage Broker - Secane, PA
Suburban Philadelphia Mortgage Broker

Gentlemen:

Although it has been a pleasure discussing this issue with you I'm afraid I am going to have to stop responding to your comments.  Yes, we are all entitled to our opinions but overall I am concerned that if you are such the reponsible, ethical, experienced and prominent loan officers that you make yourself out to be why you have to try so hard to defend yourself against little ol me?

Besides once we stoop to the level of of deceit, calling someone's office, sending theatening emails, contacting someone who has blocked you, continuing to post and comment on someone's blog even though they stopped commenting on yours  and leaving anonymous comments to defend our points this has gotten out of hand. Thank goodness for AR system glitches that enable the truth to be known (see my comment of 12/15/08 @ 11:28 PM).

 

Dec 16, 2008 07:28 AM