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Inquiring Minds Want to Know: Why Do Realtors Trash Marketing from Mortgage Brokers?

As a Realtor, do you detest the marketing pieces you get from mortgage brokers? Do you cringe when a mortgage broker starts walking towards you?

Do you delete newsletters, crumple up rate sheets, and think this: "I already HAVE all the mortgage contacts I need, thank you very much."

I am working on my number one New Year's Resolution by reading posts written by our own SOI expert, Jennifer Allan.

Here is my resolution: Get my database in order and my SOI churning out some new business.

Like most mortgage brokers, I created 2 SOI groups in my database:

One for clients and prospects.
One for Realtors.

There's just one little problem: Jennifer says I shouldn't market to the "fringe" of my Realtor group, because it simply won't work.

Fringe is defined as someone I would LIKE to do business with but have never had the opportunity to "impress" them by being involved with them in a transaction.

In her post, How Can A Lender Earn My Business? Jennifer says none of this works:

Rate sheets.
Open house flyers.
Newsletters (e-mail or hard copy)
Pop by visits
Coffee or lunch dates

Permission is granted to market this way:

Only if I have been involved with the Realtor in a transaction and been impressive
Only if I have sent a referral buyer to the Realtor, and Realtor is impressed with the way THAT transaction was handled.

Am I clueless here or completely out of touch with reality? I don't get this line of thinking.

From my perspective Realtors need MORE THAN EVER, Mortgage Brokers who can offer the RESOURCES and the SAVVY that it takes to GET LOANS CLOSED.

There are fewer mortgage companies standing, far fewer mortgage brokers, and a lending world so complex that that even those of us in the business have trouble keeping up.

Considering how important the financing part is to each precious transaction, why wouldn't Realtors be ACTIVELY SEEKING great mortgage lenders to add to their preferred list?

That's right, I said ACTIVELY. Not passively waiting for a buyer to drop from the sky with wonderful mortgage broker attached, ready to prove himself as impressive to the Realtor.

Why WOULDN'T you want to have help with this process by reading newsletters? By welcoming the chance to shake hands and have a face to face meeting? By looking at rates?

Why wouldn't you be open to finding an ADDITIONAL mortgage partner? Exactly what you have to lose by taking the time to read about current rates, or having an open house finance flyer to share with your visitors.... is just a little beyond me.

So you are afraid of trying someone NEW? There is a little something called "getting testimonials" from other Realtors/clients that have worked with the mortgage broker in the past. In the real world, this is what we do before we hire ANYONE, right?

But I maintain there is much to be learned about a person by reading what they write, and absorbing some marketing that they have produced. This person thinks you are important. Important enough to want you to CONSIDER them as a source for lending and a resource for information.

What I am trying to understand is this: Why would Realtors want to just sit back, waiting to stumble upon some mortgage broker that a buyer brings into your sphere?

Wouldn't an offensive approach help you much more? Shouldn't you always be trying to improve your business, which would involve seeking out and getting to know a variety of potential mortgage partners?

PS: Or do you find marketing from mortgage professionals boring, uninspiring, and generally useless?

Written by Janet Guilbault, Mortgage Lending Specialist Based Out of the San Francisco Bay Area

Posted by Janet Guilbault California Mortgage Banker/Broker on 01/16/2009 01:28 PM

Comments (99)

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99 Comments on Inquiring Minds Want to Know: Why Do Realtors Trash Marketing from Mortgage Brokers?

JAN

2009

Janet - Realtors do need us now more than ever. If you have quality Mortgage Folks on your side, it makes things that much easier. I try to accomplish two things when marketing to Realtors:

Give them the most up to date news/changes/products/etc that are available to their buyers and...
Give them material that will help them market to prospective buyers and sellers.

So far, nobody has bitched complained too much and it has ignited conversations. While rate sheets are bland wonderful to keep up with and let your buyers know how cheap money is or isn't, supply Realtors with knowledge and ways to better market their business is much more useful to their bottom line.

Janet, there are different personality types. I save electronic lender rate sheets. If I were doing listings, I would kiss the lender that did projected payment flyers for me. Now, after a year back into this CA market, I feel I am ready to list again. I needed that first year back to build my local market knowledge. I'll let you know when I get a listing and would love payment flyers!

Spoken written like the true owner of a Cakewalk mortgage branch office.

Vickie: And I would love to produce that for you, complete with your picture and a picture of the house. Our system at RPM actually captures the house info straight from MLS. You just need to send me your picture, and all I have to do to do the flyer is click on your name and the MLS #. Sweet.

Janet - While I see your point (and Jason's) that Realtors need us more than ever now, I will still not waste my time, energy and money marketing to Realtors that do not know me. I spent way too much of my time, energy and money doing that before I learned my lesson.

Once I do business with a Realtor and I like the way they work (they need to impress the heck out of me just as much as I need to impress the heck out of them), then, and only then, will I include them in my SOI database.

Granted, I don't have a huge list of Realtors in my SOI database but the ones that I do are ones that I have not only established a good working relationship with, but I have also come to call them a friend. For me, those are the only Realtors that I will send my clients to.

As in your market, some lenders can offer some things that others cant. I like to look at different lender's marketing material (I also like lunch). I think you should talk to as many Realtors as you can.

Donne: Would be interested to know what lesson you learned? Was it simply that the reward did not justify the time and the expense?

I would agree that a point I did not bring out in this post is this: Mortgage brokers can also have a preferred list of Realtors. Some you just don't want to work with.

Nate: Thank you for your input. I would think your stable of lenders would include various specialties. And I would think you would always want to have many options, because there are many different kinds of clients.

I have gotten loans strictly because someone wanted to "work with a women". Or because they wanted "someone local" or because the wanted someone "who already owns a second home".

As a Realtor, you want to have the ability to pick which lender works best for your specific client

Janet - Yes, it's true that the ROI was simply not there but then that wouldn't be the whole story. The greater lesson for me was the reason the ROI wasn't there was because the Realtors around here (Ventura County) that I was marketing to don't refer business to people (lenders, inspectors, title reps, escrow officers or anyone for that matter) that they do not know or people who were not referred to them by someone they know and trust.

The Realtors that I currently work with are ones that contacted me because either a client of theirs or another Realtor in their office referred them to me and they have come to like and respect me for my experience and the way I work as well as the services and products that I have to offer them and their clients.

One final note and another lesson that I learned a long time ago is that my happy and satisfied clients are much better referral sources than most of the Realtors I have ever worked with.

A really great rate sheet doesn't tell me that you know how to explain the terms of the loan to a buyer. Sending me marketing materials to help me with my clients is a nice gesture, but it doesn't tell how well you can close a deal on time. A newsletter while often funny or interesting, doesn't tell me that you will return my phone calls and be honest when things start to go bad. I think we are so inundated with marketing in general, that I know I am marketed out. SHOW ME what you can do, and then we are good.

All the mortgage brokers I refer people to I have personally been involved in transactions with over time. I agree that taking me out to lunch isn't going to have me refer people to you. I also think the reverse is true. Mortgage brokers have a small group of agents that they refer people to.

Who we refer people to is a reflection on us.

Janet - Wow, another qreat "edgey" post. Should spur some interesting dialogue. It should be a nice two-way street, realtors need the solid mortgage professionals and mortgage professionals potentially need the realtors to refer business. I dont think any one way is the right way... all method should be tried to determine the ROI per se. I would certainly consider and use a mortgage pro just by reading their blog. For example, I have never met Jason Sardi, but I was ready to do a personal REFI with him just by having confidence of reading his blog and knowing he knows what he is doing. Obviously the best way to network and have something work is on a successful transaction but many transactions can blow up or in the beginning a "second opinion" is needed. I use these opportunites also to refer out to a mortgage professional Im interested in starting a relationship with. Realtors who do a lot of business need several different mortgage pros I believe to refer out to so they are not just locked into one or two mortgage pros. Obviously beyond rate sheets I like it when mortgage pros reach out when the opportunity is there, or provide some marketing material for an open house or things of that nature. Will be interested to see the discussion here.

I guess the big picture is that the better than average realtors and mortgage pros will hook up to work with each other... there are many ways that they cross each others path and no one way is the right way.

Donne: Thank you for taking the time to give me that input. WOW. Your experience tells me alot. One thing that pops out right away is to nurture and develop the Realtor relationships you DO HAVE. Or to make sure the majority of your time and energy goes into that segment of your data base, NOT the fringe Realtors.

I DO respond to marketing. Especially if it is consistant. I may not respond right away, but eventually I will give someone a shot, who has clearly shown me that he wants my business, wants to help me, and will take whatever measures required to show me he is the guy for the job.

And while my own clients are a great source of business and referrals, my observation has been that the most successful mortgage brokers have developed a small following of great Realtors who refer them business on a consistant basis.

I Noticed this AGENT REMARK on a listing today. This is one of the things that mortgage brokers have to overcome.

========================================

FAX OFFERS TO xxx-xxx-xxxx W/STRONG PRE-APPROVAL FROM DIRECT LENDER - BANK ADDENDUM PROVIDED AFTER ALL TERMS AGREED TO - EMD TO BE CERTIFIED FUNDS HELD BY EXiT FIRST REALTY - CALL LISTING AGENT W/ANY QUESTIONS.

Melina: A really great rate sheet is not intended to be anything other than a conversation starter. It is an ice breaker in the relationship.

I would argue the intent of a good newsletter (or blog) IS to get to know the writer more in depth.

Will this person return calls? (Try calling them yourself a few times) Will this person do a good job explaining the loan to my client? (Try asking the mortgage broker about the loan yourself) Will the loan close on time (Ask to talk to the Realtors involved in the last few closed loans...they will tell you IF the loans closed on time).

Marketing is only intended to spark relationships, and will not serve as a background check on the mortgage broker.

Being tired of marketing is another story. Why?

C & S: Wow: What a testimonial to Jason. I hope he reads that. I am so impressed that you would give him your personal refinance because of his blog. You actually give me hope! LOL

I know that Realtors often use their "second string" mortgage brokers for deals that need second opinions or deals that have blown up with another lender. That's okay with me.

I also know Realtors who have taken advantage of mortgage brokers for "free" marketing.

Thank you for your input!

Lenn: Overcome because mortgage brokers are not DIRECT LENDERS? Or overcome because they do not have the ability to write a STRONG pre-approval letter?

(Asking because RPM is a direct letter, and a strong approval letter including a automated approval would not be a problem for me)

We also can broker loans, but obviously as time goes on, the advantage of being a direct lender grows.

Interesting blog. I am one of those that throw it in trash

Janet, I like getting electronic newsletters. I do not like getting faxes. I do like getting snail mail packages especially with goodies in them. My favorite goodies are those letter openers with biz cards on them. I love those things!!!!

The best way to get my business is to give me business.

Call me with a qualified buyer.
Refer a seller that can't refi but instead needs to do a short sale.
Hook me up with the name and number of an asset manager.

If all else fails...........bake me cookies:)

Janet-I agree that those things are meant to start a relationship...no doubt about that...It's just a first impressions thing for me.

I am a sole broker so most companies tend to ignore me. Since the market has decreased, little ole me has been inundated with marketing from people. It is really important to me to refer my clients to good people, which is why I really like blogs. I do get to prescreen.

I agree that blogs are a great way to get to know the person you are considering referring people too. I don't like the newsletters I get that have jokes or just "filler" information in them. I am not a sales-y agent. My website, blogs, and referrals drive my business. I am a subtle marketer and prefer people that are subtle as well.

Now if someone has a new approach, idea...I'm all ears. I just seem to get a lot of people that have read the same marketing book. I think that it is important to find people that have a similar style as you. You tend to work better together, which is good for the consumer.

I've told all lenders that want to work with us that you'll need to meet with us and tell us "why" we should choose you (as in an interview) and second, send us a referral to work so that we can see you in action without having to see you in inaction on one of OUR clients.

Jennifer is right in that regard I guess.

JAN

2009

It depends upon the information I receive. Often, it's just marekting without much information. Also, I've been around the mortgage industry for decades because of my family, and that tends to be where I turn for help.

Janet, I don't want any paper junk. Send me an email, if I like it, I will print it with my logo next to yours. :)

I keep an open mind and am willing to give someone a chance - someone gave me a chance. And I have met some wonderful lenders, title officers, home inspectors....it is nice to meet people.

Janet, I'm a realtor and there are many lenders in my market that are excellent at marketing, and I appreciate their efforts. However, when it comes to referring business what matters to me most is how my client will be treated, if the lender can "get 'er done", and is good at follow-through and meeting deadlines. Local lenders who have consistently taken care of clients receive many referrals, regardless of their marketing efforts (which they do also). Hope that helps...at the end of the day, it's all about the consumer and getting them the best service possible. Susanna

Janet,

I do not throw out the marketing piecies that are sent to me by mortgage bankers. But a phone call and maybe a meeting at a coffee shop does help. I want to know more about the person face to face. Realtors should be craving financial information in this market, so they can sound half way intelligent, about financing, when speaking with a client.

Good points you make..great blog. As a realtor I certainly don't just depend on marketing to those I know or have done business with in the past (althought those are primarty warm sources). I have my favoorite mortgage people but the also change over time as some switch companies or change to another occupation or whatever. To me it would never hurt to market to agents! Give them something of value, consistently and you can win them over.

Wow - thanks for the mention! Please note that the title of my blog was "How can a lender get MY business?", so I don't speak for the entire REALTOR community. There's no way any lender is going to get MY business unless I have a REALLY REALLY good reason to believe they'll get my deal closed. No way I'm going to risk one of my precious buyer deals on a lender who might make me look bad. No rate sheet, open house brochure, pop-by, paid-for lunch or gizmo-gadget is going to convince me of a lender's competence. (And, for the record, I would never hire a REALTOR based on such gimmicks either). I don't disdain the marketing practices, but they are not persuasive in getting my business.

(Although I will say that popping by my office to chat about "earning my business" won't win any brownie points - I actually prefer my go-to mortgage broker to be in his or her own office working on his or her deals!)

When approached by a new lender looking for business, I always listen politely ( and briefly ) and then ask them to SHOW me how this referral thing works. In other words, send ME some business. I'm still waiting. Meanwhile my 2 primary lenders and I send bix back and forth on a regular basis.

As to gimmicky gifts, doesn't mean much to me but to others it will. And no, I don't need more doughnuts:-)

If a client "comes with" a lender with whom they have built a good relationship and trust, that is a good way for me to assess the lender and give them future business. If a lender sends me a prequalified buyer, that's another way for me to see the lender in action.

Like everyone else, I am receptive to referrals from other agents WHOM I TRUST. If it's a referral from an agent for whom I do not have a lot of respect (for whatever reason) or an agent I don't know very well, the referral is meaningless.

Marketing materials do not work with me, either, however, if I were to pick *one* thing that may possibly move me pick up the phone and call a lender "sight unseen," it would be a blog, where I have had the chance to "get to know them." I'm still not sure if I would refer them, but I would definitely give it serious consideration.

To all the lenders reading this blog:

I do trash unsolicited information from everyone. Below are two scenarios as food for thought!

FIRST: My favorite lender was introduced to me thru one of the closing attornies I work with. If you are not persuing that avenue you are missing a valuable resource. I don't mean start bombarding every attorney in your town, just contact the ones you do closings with. Let them know you are building your business up and anyone they could reccommend you would greatly appreciate, then SHOW your appreciation with a thank you card, at minimal.

SECOND: I had a new lender call me and ask if I had a moment to talk (that showed a respect for my time). I did not that particular day so we scheduled a phone appointment to view their website features for potential clients. (that shows interest in my clients and business) That went well so we agreed to meet for coffee and pie and I was glad to do so.

The approach to do business was different. I did not feel like a new source of leads for this lender (which is how I usually feel) I felt like it was now our team that helps to gets the client to closing.

Again, just food for thought!

Dana G.

Hi Janet! From how I understood your post, you summarized you perspective (in my opinion) in the middle of your post....

"Considering how important the financing part is to each precious transaction, why wouldn't Realtors be ACTIVELY SEEKING great mortgage lenders to add to their preferred list?"

You are exactly right BUT I think that shows where you may have missed Jennifer's point. I took away from Jennifer's post that she does ACTIVELY SEEK great mortgage lenders by watching them in action every deal.

Think sports for instance... do you find the best players by hearing about them or reading stats in the newspapers? That does not reflect how well they play with others, how their current team may limit them or how their current team may make them look better than they are.

You find the best by watching them in action. From that perspective you can see the big picture and how the real players perform under pressure of "game time."

With all due respect, I think your post also seems to assume that the Realtors you are marketing too don't already work with great lenders and mortgage brokers. So I submit that if are wanting to be ADDED to the preferred list of a successful Realtor, you need to keep in mind this fact. They may could benefit from a relationship with you but ...

They don't know you. (Do you trust your best deals to people you don't know?)
They don't have time to get to know everyone that is trying to get their attention to sort them out.
They likely already have some great lenders work with so they can do great deals now without you.
The marketing approaches Jennifer suggests are ineffective for her are the same approaches the ineffective lenders are using... what makes your message any better? You provide useful stuff? Sure. But it is things that someone like Jennifer probably gets by the dump truck.

Doris Phillips, the president of RealSource, worked for years as a successful title rep, then marketing director. She did all the things Jennifer says don't work for her. Doris said that since that time, she has gone back to her former employer and apologized for all the money she wasted on pastries, flyers, gas, lunches and time "doing what everyone else was doing."

I'm very appreciative of your post. I think this discussion is very important and shows the struggle we all have to have our great service noticed by those that can benefit the most!

Glenn

Hi Janet:

I'm not in your market area, but thought 'd comment anyway. Mortgage brokers suffer from the same malady as REALTORS. The consumer (REALTORS in your case) thinks we're all the same and it only takes one bad experience to leave a lasting negative impression. There are a lot of incompetents and outright crooks in both fields and the only way to differentiate ourselves is by personal contact. The personal contact builds trust and trust leads to opportunities. Opportunities give us a chance to demonstrate our capabilities and that leads to referrals and repeat business.

I use marketing materials from pretty much anyone, but I'm very selective in my recommendations.

Good luck,

Jim Kouns (jkrealtor)

Muncie, IN

My experience has been in Real Estate Sales, Real Estate Title and Mortgage Lending. Most realtors in my area do not have any sort of database to keep track of their "customers" and are doing the same ole' marketing they did 10 years ago and expecting mammoth results in our world today. (Isn't that a form of insanity?) And, they are expecting LO's to bring them prequalified buyers out of our PBOB??? I have "fired" several and will not market many others. Many are dying on the vine and just can't figure out why??? Some do not call our office because they know we will not work their "crooked" deals. There are approximately 600 realtors in a county that has less than 80,000 year round residents.

I have called and emailed a couple of the local realtors who are also friends asking to meet with them to show them marketing tools that could set their ads apart from other "same ole'" marketing items - neither one has made any effort to sit down with me.

We use tools that we have learned from training with Greg Frost, Todd Duncan, etc. and have had one couple that actually worked as a team with us and referred their leads to us to be counseled on purchasing in our area. They worked the internet with several websites, email newsletters, etc. (They retired when all the mess started to hit the industry.)

Most of the realtors in our area just put anyone who calls or walks through the door in their car and runs them to umpteen dozen homes without finding out if they are qualified to even buy a dog house. When I asked one of them what the percentage of closings they got out of this - it was a whooping 1%+/-!!!!

98% of agents here do not even have a working website!! It's astounding!

Hi Janet, I don't know the stats on business gained from repeated blind mailings but suspect it is very low. I have a few lenders and tend to work exclusively with them. I have a trust level with them which have have earned over time.

Well having been a lender, REALTORS can be a real pain... egotistic, overbearing and full of themselves. But then they are sales people and those traits can come in handy.

As a current and successful) REALTOR, I want a lender that is in for the long haul. 2003, 97, 92...all times when lenders left their REALTOR friends standing in the church yard in order to make a quick buck with the re-fi business. Today you see the same phenom... closing times are getting strung out and appts are harder to get because of re-fi. I do not begrudge the ability to make a buck...we all have to. But I am there all the time bringing in deals and now I am the second class citizen... no credit for the 40 or so deals I brought in over the course of the year when things were "slow"... nope and by the way when the re-fis slow down...a flyer won't do it. It does not make sense to me... grab the quick business and then a year later spend a ton of $$ bringing back the day to day business that has gone ignored or at least pushed back??

True this is a little overstated... but it does happen.

As to Jennifer...well she is entitled to her modest opinions.

The lender I refer has monthly meetings with any interested Realtors where she covers topics of interest (e.g., once, right before our new county values were coming out, she arranged for us to meet with the assessor), she provides a really great website for our clients to use for free home searches, she writes articles for my newsletter, and she sends out an electronic newsletter. I did notice that I was getting the same newsletter from 3 other lenders, but she always writes a personal paragraph at the top of hers, so I unsubscribed to the others. I've never gotten a referral from her, but with all she does I can't complain (too much!).

Janet, I've been a lender since 1981 and things haven't changed since rates were at 18.5% (who would want to see a rate sheet with that on it?).

I don't know how different other markets are but according to our Regional MLS, 95% of the Realtors here did two deals A YEAR or less! What can you give someone who is biggest need is a customer?

All my focus for 2009 is generating my own buyer leads which allows me to choose with whom I want to work Realtors who believe in reciprocity, rather than best donuts (sorry, couldn't help that one!).

If you don't have enough clients, then you are in a marketing business not a sales business. Ramp it up to get the buyers, you'l be amazed how good being in control feels.

Janet, ditto what Bryant said - give me referrals and you'll get them from me. It's hard to trust new lenders because it is a direct reflection on you. Word of mouth works. We are using a new lender because he was referred by the agent in the office next to ours.

Janet: Great post. We do need each other. Most of the realtors I know read what I send them. If we haven't done business together, it could just be that there aren't alot of buyers right now to refer. Or, perhaps there is an existing realtionship. I believe great relationships take years to cultivate. I've only been in the business just shy of 3 years so remain patient. I have some great realtor contacts and although I'm always interested in meeting and helping new ones. I'm picky about who I work with. A realtor should be too. The key is to keep fostering and communicating with our essential power partners. I would bet this year I'll do quite a few more transactions with realtors for two reasons. One, I think the market will pick up a bit and, two, there are less of us mortage lenders left. Thus, a bigger piece of the pie! Have a nice weekend.

Hi Janet~ If you, or Jason Sardi, or Jeff Belonger were in the Owensboro area, I would refer to any of you in a minute. Why? Because I know you are all hard workers and will get the job done in a timely fashion and that you would treat my clients as I would treat them. How do I know this? Your blogs! Vickie

I'm working in Vegas, and letme tell you what I've found. I like rate sheets, sure. But I don't need 20 mortgage brokers sending them to me daily. Frankly, if Joe Mortgage rates are substantially below Jane Broker's, I start to wonder why, and if my clients could get that rate anyway. Or, if they can get it, what kinds of strings are attached.

The thing about mailings is that you never know when it will be the right time to get my business. When a mortgage person completely drops the ball, I go looking through the mortgage related junk on my desk. The person who diligently sends professional materials and can demonstrate their competence by following through when I call has a good chance of getting referrals!

As for myself, I am turning things around. I am actively visiting mortgage brokers when things are slow -- particularly the bank-based ones that don't have the ability to get out and prospect with Realtors. Usually, they are happy to see me (particularly if I bring candy).

Janet -I agree with you that consistent referral business is essential to our success. However, I've discovered that for me to succeed, I need to maximize my time, energy and money that I spend on marketing and just focus on my top two or three most successful referral sources. Marketing to Realtors does not fall into those categories. As far as separating Realtors into a separate SOI database, I only have two databases: a) past clients (Realtors I've worked with who I like, trust and respect fall into this category) and b) prospective clients (Realtors I want to work with who I like, trust and respect fall into this category). Simple - yes, but I need to keep it simple for it to work for me.

While I do agree with Melina that, who we refer our clients to is a reflection on us, that is why it becomes so vital to get to know someone before you do business with them, which is why I loved your response of checking someone out first before working with them so you can find out how they work.

I've had numerous Realtors do exactly that to me (and allowed me to do the same) before ever working together, which is how we became friends first (or not). Just as Ron Tarvin pointed out, we (mortgage professionals) need to be interviewing our preferred Realtors before we decide to do business with them. Like Melina pointed out, I also agree that similar work styles are important and when getting to know me first, a Realtor will learn if the way I work is conducive to the way they work. I've often found that this one issue will either make or break any future relationship between me and a Realtor.

I truly believe that the biggest reason why I don't have more Realtors in my SOI database is because I simply refuse to be their beck and call girl. Eight years ago, when I left the corporate world, I swore I would never be anyone else's beck and call girl. I have had quite a few Realtors around here tell me that they didn't like working with me because I refused to be on call 24/7.

Never mind that our mutual client had no problem with the way that I worked and was completely happy and satisfied with the way that I handled the entire transaction, the fact that the Realtor couldn't get a hold of me one time on a Saturday night at 9:30 or that I didn't return the call until the next morning at 10am was simply unacceptable to them and they could not work with someone who worked like that. Never mind all the times I took care of our client when they couldn't get a hold of their Realtor for three days or the times that they called me in a panic because you Mr/Mrs Arrogant, Obnoxious and Unprofessional Realtor snapped at them because they asked you a question.

As Susanna pointed out, in the end, the important thing is to take care of the client and as long as I do that, I find that most of my clients will appreciate my efforts and the rewards come in their referrals, regardless of whether or not their Realtor does.

As for all the Realtors who commented who expect referrals from mortgage professionals before they will ever consider giving them a referral. Referrals go both ways people, I would never expect to get a referral from a Realtor if I hadn't personally taken the time and energy to get to know the person and they shouldn't expect to get any business from me if they personally haven't taken the time to get to know me.

Lastly (and I do apologize profusely for the long comment), kudos to you Bridget!!! I like you already. You have demonstrated exactly the kind of attitude and behavior that I like to see in the Realtors that I work with. Keep it up!

HI Janet,

Great question ... for me, the truth is that I will ask for the information when I need it. I do throw away all of the material that I receive. The greatest thing that a mortgage professional can give me is: quick response (and great service to my client) and/ or referrals. I know that most brokers work with more than one agent, so I'm content with the first. Recently, I've had a hard time getting same day call backs.

Best regards,
Mike

Janet the problem is that most mortgage reps are so rapped up on them selves that Realtors are tired of dealing with pompis people. Most of them (mortgage reps) didn't know what they were doing and making false promises. In one hand I don't blame the realtors on the other hand I think it is extremely rude for someone to ignore a person trying to make money especially when the terms are the same as the person that is doing the ignoring.

Majority of my business is done thru referral from Realtors and past clients. I do cater to realtors by doing open houses, flyers for open houses, broker open houses and having individual lunches with them. I find it that the ones that like me and my personality send me referrals and the ones that just want to have lunch don't get to have a second chance.

In this economy you must strategize properly and frugaly truth be told the realtors that did ignore throw things away and waste our time are no longer in the business anyway. So this entire cleanising process is working for both the mortgage industry as well as the real estate industry. Good luck with your ventures and hope you have great success in the coming year(s)...

Hari Endaz

Sr. Loan Consultant New Jersey

Dear Janet,

I look at emailed rate sheets. I appreciate emailed updates and individual info sheets for my listings.

I hate the paper mailed or faxed rate sheets. I dump them.

Barbara

As a Realtor in Connecticut, I love to find new mortgage brokers who I can trust to do a good job for my clients, but, how do I know that I can trust any given mortgage broker to do a good job for my clients. I don't want to refer them to someone based on an ad, or because they seemed nice when I met them for coffee. I don't want to have to apologize for a referral I have made. I've worked with a good mortgage broker or two, and I've worked with a few bad ones as well, and until things go bad, you don't know that it's going to happen. I don't look too much at the marketing materials, because they are only words on paper, and they are usually the same words that I have heard before from countless others.

This is just my 2 cents on why, Realtors don't read the marketing materials. I personally do want to meet and talk with any mortgage broker that I can. There is nothing wrong with widening your sphere of influence. Any Realtor who chooses to walk away from a conversation with a mortgage broker is walking away from possible new information and business.

We have an in office stationed lender and what infuriates me is that we never get a rate sheet at all! I have to track the rates down! I guess they are just too busy? I am not sure what advice to offer you except that most things are boring from loan officers. Do I really need another LO telling me about the 'New FHA'. New? Maybe for you but not for me! Why would I give you a loan in my area if you've just discovered FHA dude? No new factual informaton is really ever given out. I find out more on AR.

I have just finished reading all of the comments, and am actually blown away at the wealth of information you have all chosen to share with me. I had not expected comments from my fellow mortgage people on this post. But knowing your success stories and failures is something that has probably saved me years in the school of hard knocks. I can only say thank you, I am amazed.

Seriously, these comments could form the basis of a book. What an eye opener. These are some of the longest and most passionate responses I think I have ever seen.

To the Realtors (c'mon, tell me what you REALLY think...) You have completely changed my marketing strategy. You have made me think of things I had never considered before.
For your honesty and willingness to share your opinons with me, I am more thankful than you know.

And to Jennifer: Thank you for writing the post that sparked this priceless discussion.

Janet - Funny you mention a book - I've been struggling to revamp my SOI book to be of use to lenders and I think you're right - there's some awesome stuff here!!! Thank YOU for inspiring all this activity & brilliance. BTW, I used to live in Walnut Creek...

Lyn: I have suspected for a long time that marketing from mortgage brokers is BORING to Realtors (or worse yet...stupid) I think of this because I used to be a Realtor and believe that alot of mortgage marketing is simply not directed at HELPING the Realtor.

Maybe that FHA FLYER should have been twisted to tell you how to come up with MORE FHA buyers?

One of the main themes in the comment was this: Mortgage broker, send me a buyer. Well, I would like to ask this "what if you could get more buyers yourself by having the support and resource of a great lender?"

Kara: I am in full agreement that you would not refer someone from reading an ad. Maybe a blog, as others have suggested, because it is so much more personal.

You have also said HO HUM, same stuff I have seen before. Okay, the marketing needs to be much better.

I realize Realtors take a huge risk and a leap of faith when they refer someone new. But that is why I am advocating that Realtors take an active role in checking lenders out!

Barbara:

I am in agreement with you that Realtors would prefer information e-mailed. My desk has enough paper already. If I did send and e-mail, I would give the option to opt out.

Hari:

Maybe it is a good thing that all of us in this industry, Realtors and Mortgage brokers have been taken down a notch by these difficult times. Personally, I would rather be a source of excellent information both written and verbal, and a friendly, knowledgable voice on the phone when a Realtor needs help....than to provide lunches and rate sheets (which anyone can do)

Mike:

Hard getting same day call backs? Do you think it is because of the refinance boomlet? I had no idea Realtors resented it when mortgage brokers become more scarce because of refi's. From the Realtor's perspective, this must be aggrevating.

Hey! Maybe you should try that new guy who has been sending you a newsletter and asking you to coffee??????

Janet, I just had to come back to read all of these awesome comments. Great discussion!!!

To add to my first comment, I actually have 3 mortgage brokers that I'm currently using. One, Ron Withers (AR member) I've used for years with business and my own personal loans. I met Ron because he bought one of my listings when he moved to Florida about 10 years ago.

I have another that I use who I met because she was the broker for a buyer that bought one of my listings about 8 years ago and after several conversations with her I knew she knew her stuff.

My third broker I met a couple of years ago, again through a buyer that purchased one of my listings. She's kind of a stand by broker.

When I with with a buyer I hook them up with the one who I feel will be a good match based on personalities and the mortgage product needed i.e. FHA, VA, Rural housing, hard money etc..

Donne: I have also had transactions close in which the client was thrilled with everything, sent me a glowing testimonial, flowers, AND referrals.

But the Realtor was mad, and never sent me another referral. Mad because at the last minute he credited his buyers with $12,000 of his commissionwhen we had already maxxed out the amount of credits that the bank would accept!

I salvaged the loan, but naturally, it delayed things as I worked it all out with the bank. He couldn't understand why ADDING money would matter or change things.

Even though he was really mad at himself for giving up that $12,000, it was easier to blame me for the delay in the transaction.

Can you say "whipping boy?"

I can only say that relationships are precarious when there is so much money involved.

Bryant: Thank you for giving me the history of how you met your mortgage people. You know, it is becoming clear to me that I should pay more attention to the listing agents in my transactions.

I always DO keep them in the loop. But I have failed to market to these Realtors.

Yet almost everyone who commented said that they would consider using the mortgage broker that they "watched" do a good job with person who bought their listing!

Earth to Janet! I am going back through my files to find the listing agents and put them in my database.

Jennifer: You lived in Walnut Creek! When? Did you go to high school here? Tell me more!

I would love to read a book that helped lenders develop some of the strategies you talk about in your blog. Obviously, marketing to Realtors is a whole different ball game than marketing to get customers. To explore this would be fascinating.

In fact, this whole subject has been sadly neglected. Sad, especially considering how much better the entire house buying process goes when lender and Realtor work seamlessly as a team.

Bridget: Now that's what I'm talking about! Turn the tables. Bring candy to the mortgage people. Make the first move. Figure out who can help you the most, and who you can best work with.

You are right that timing is everything. That is why being consistant is so very important. When you are in need of a mortgage lender, ready to try someone new, the person that has hung in there will be the one you call.

Janet - Regarding the lender on the other side of the deal - what really impresses me is when the lender keeps me (the listing agent) in the loop and makes it all seem painless. If there's a problem, fine, but tell me how you're gonna solve it without scaring me. It's all about making me look good to MY client.

I lived in Walnut Creek right after college - moved there in time for the earthquake and left during the landslides in 94 (when it started raining after a 7 year drought!) I worked at Scott's Seafood & Carlos Murphy's in Pleasant Hill, to supplement my day job at Great West Life. My sister still lives in Moraga.

Janet, I totally agree with you, and I do not agree with what the other gal says. I do a fair amount of distribution list marketing to realtors in our local market, and I have gotten leads from Realtors who never worked with me before, typically because someone else in their office said, "Oh yeah, her approvals are solid, her deals never fall apart, etc." And it is not uncommon for me to get referrals to Realtors from other Realtors. I believe a lot of this is because I step outside of the box on a regular basis. Keep doing what you're doing! It'll pay off.

I do think it is interesting when Realtors expect that as a lender we can easily give a referral to get a referral. The statistics just don't add up that way. For example, I typically must close 2-3 deals to earn the same income as a Realtor. So, I do my best to pass around the referrals I can to agents I trust when I can, but if they start out by being clear that the only way they'll give me a shot is if I first refer to them, in the back of my mind, I count the relationship done- it's just not realistic. Those that work with me know that I refer to them as often as I can.

Janet - I'm sure you and I have more than our fair share of stories of Realtors who screwed up deals we were in and blamed us for their mistakes. I can also relate and agree with Jennifer about communication between all the parties in the transaction. She refers to lenders communicating with listing agents but that should also work both ways.

Reminds me of a recent escrow where shortly after opening escrow, clouds on title were discovered because of some city bldg code violations on an REO property that both the listing agent and the bank were aware of for months. Personally, that listing agent had a duty and responsibility to disclose that kind of info to any prospective and interested parties before accepting their offer and taking thier deposit.

When I asked the listing agent what the bank was going to do about abating the bldg code violations (we can't proceed with the loan transaction until we have clear title), her response was "that's why the property is listed as-is". For the record, listing an REO property "as-is" in the MLS does not release the bank and/or the listing agent from the responsibility of disclosing that there is nearly 30k in bldg code violations on the property that prevents a clear title to be transfered.

We're bearing through the process (my client really likes the home and still wants it) and we've come up with a workable solution for my client but, of course, the listing agent is pissed at me because I wouldn't let my client be bullied and get screwed.

The scariest part about this listing agent, she has a lot of REO listings and it makes me wonder how many other buyers she has done this to. Just the other day, the Realtor for another client mentioned a property for our client and when I recognized it as one of the listings for this particular REO agent, I told my other clients Realtor to get a pre-lim title before making an offer.

JAN

2009

Great posts and it really speaks to the challenges of marketing. I'm going with newsletters and rate sheets. I'm trying to get to be their backup choice.

I refer my clients to mortgage professionals I know and trust - who will always treat them with the utmost respect and who will not consider them a burden or something to be endured.

I only give out a few names for any kind of reference, and it's not the name of people who marketed the most to me, it's people I trust. I can't learn to trust you from marketing materials that will likely end up in the trash.

I have two mortgage pros from local banks, and about three or four independent mortgage brokers I recommend....one of them is Jason Sardi. Another was someone who was introduced to me by another agent who has standards as high as mine. The two local bank people helped my husband and I with our financing. That's it. Everyone else can save their money and not send me anything...cause if I don't know you, you are not getting my customer's name and neither am I giving them yours.

My two cents worth... I have suggested a "garbage deposit" to my broker. Lenders, inspectors and others who drop flyers at our office should be charged for disposing of them. Most of them go straight from the agents' mailbox to the nearest garbage can. I quit reading those years ago.

Give me something that shows how you work...

•1. Offer to take the loan I can't get done elsewhere

•2. Offer a "great deal" for my refi, or a friend or family member's refi or purchase

•3. Do a super job of keeping in touch with me when I am the list agent on one of your transactions

I have a great primary and a really good back up lender... dazzle me! I lost the opportunity to be a REALTOR® for life to my very first client due to a non-responsive lender that I referred. I learned my lesson!

Oh, Jodie, I am sorry you got burned. That must have been terrible. And on your first deal..ouch.

Thank you for your 3 suggestions. I think being thrown a difficult deal is okay. It has happened to me many times and I do not take offense, actually welcome the chance to prove myself. This is REALLY a big deal with me, because I never really dealt with marginal or bad credit (in the "good old days" LOL)

Except to impress Realtors.I KNOW how to repair credit. But repairing credit is time consuming and in general does not "reform the buyer". But I expect to be "tested" this way, and will rise to the challenge.

I think your point of impressing the listing agent is HUGE. Maybe even the biggest thing I have taken away from these comments.

Thank you so much for your imput!

Karen: I am thrilled that you have referred Jason Sardi. I am hoping it is because you came to know him through ActiveRain. Why? Because it gives me hope that some form of marketing will work with you.

You have pretty much decided you do not want any marketing materials sent to you because marketing alone would not build enough trust or ensure standards that match yours.

Fair enough.

But would there ever be a marketing piece that would cause you to want to know a mortgage broker better? That would open the door to a new relationship? That could help you be a more informed Realtor?

Most importantly, would cause you to want to know that mortgage professional better?

But would there ever be a marketing piece that would cause you to want to know a mortgage broker better? That would open the door to a new relationship? That could help you be a more informed Realtor?

If you're talking about a single piece, or even a series of pieces created deliberately to "woo me..."

Probably not, but I am a tough sell (that old "don't kid a kidder" thing.) I am a strong believer in networking with people you know or come to trust. How do you come to trust people? By building relationships with them.

For example - I have been "following" Jennifer Allan, who you mentioned earlier, for a long time. It started out when I was reading her posts on a realtor message board...she was just actively engaging in conversation and building online relationships. I was immediately attracted to everything she wrote. It "clicked" with me. I liked her style, I liked the way she expressed herself. I ended up chit chatting with her in private messages and I followed her here to ActiveRain. I purchased her book and became a firm believer in her approach to real estate. I've talked with her on the phone. She did not "sell" me. I consider her a friend and you betcha if I had customers going to Denver, I'd be sending them her way.

Now, if we want to be technical, it was marketing in a way but not the way you're talking about - it had nothing to do with bombarding me with "stuff" in hopes of making a fan out of me.

To continue to embarras Jennifer and use her as an example - lol - by getting to know Jennifer over the last year and a half (probably longer, actually) I have gotten to know her and I see that she would handle my clients with the courtesy and professionalism that I would like.

It's not about the marketing; it's about the relationship.

My local mortgage favorites? How did they get to be my favorites? Well, one of them impressed me to no end when she helped my husband and I get a mortgage for our house, when our first mortgage broker put us through the wringer only to tell us, after we did everything he told us to do, that he couldn't help us get a loan. We were tough - our credit was good but our income was not so good. We needed a house though. At the suggestion of a friend we called this lady and at one point after a couple of weeks of getting nowhere, I told her to forget us, we're hopeless, and we'd have to move in with my parents or something.

I was in tears (you see, I know exactly what it is to be a "not so great" client.) An hour after I told her to just pull the plug and let it die, she called me, victorious, because she managed to find a program that would work for us. Because of the way she treated my husband and me, I know without a shadow of a doubt that she will work like a bulldog for my other clients - and I know she'll thank me for the referral.

It's not about the marketing. It's about the relationship.

JAN

2009

Over time I have talked and worked with several mortgage brokers.My experience is they all have teaser rates that my clients might or might not get depending on income ,creditscore,and many other variables. For me it is important that the client gets the best deal for their situation and not the best deal for the broker or lender.

I am impressed when a mortgage broker can actually help to improve credit scores,contact my client the same day and gives a pre-approval within 24 hours.

I am even more impressed when the mortgage broker is willing to pitch in some of the fees to make a deal work in combination of realtors that are willing to give up some of their commission .

I expect that at the closing the money is actually wired and there are no last minute surprises with the lender.

I also expect that the broker and lender is competative.I don't want my clients to pay a penny too much.

Once I have a mortgage broker that does all that, I am satisfied and will work with him/her untill I don't get that service or I see that they are more looking out for themselves than my clients.I don't like greedy people!

JAN

2009

I have to say that as mortgage brokers, we are often accused of the same thing by appraisers, title companies, insurance agents, etc. They try to solicit us to try their business with some of the same tactics that we employ. All too often, mortgage brokers pay them no attention or shoot them down because they already have a few people they trust.

If the person seems to know their trade and sincere it is worth finding out if they can help. Obtain a few references, look into their credentials and keep them in mind. Good service providers are worth a lot, and you never know when you might need one.

That said, rate sheets, coffee and the good old promise of "best rates and most programs" are useless. Everyone does that and anyone can say those things. Its about providing something more... service, education, experience and finding a way to show them.

Great post. I loved reading the comments as well. We use brokers we have trusted for years in our Real Estate side of the business.

Terry Miller

Karen: Wow! What a powerful comment. It is inspiring to know how well respected Jennifer is by you and by others. You can see from the comments how many people agreed with her. I had no idea this would spark so many intensely personal comments, including your own.

I think it is very obvious that a marketing revolution is going on. Perhaps all of us are just on advertising overload. The thought of getting even one more advertising thing from ANYONE makes you think, thanks, but no thanks.

But what we want more of is realtionships. People we know. People we trust. People we have seen in action. People who will embrace us, and help us.

Maybe what I should have asked is this: How can a mortgage broker begin a relationship with a Realtor they would like to know, and maybe eventually do business with?

If not marketing, then what?

Wow - Janet - I've been working on my next book, which is, coincidently about this very topic and you probably just named one of my chapter... "If not marketing, then what?"

Frankly, I don't have the answer. I believe we're in the middle of a massive paraidgm shift where marketing will soon be useless (it probably already is to some degree, but old habits die hard). We simply don't have the patience for it and are pretty jaded to promises we hear from strangers. I wrote a blog on this today - basically saying that if "it" comes to me in the form of a sales pitch, I'll Just Say No, thank you very much.

But what IS the alternative to marketing? In our businesses, we're lucky. We CAN build successful businesses on personal relationships; we aren't dependent on volume purchasers. I don't know about the lending industry, but a real estate agent can survive on 20 sales a year. That's only 20 people in the whole town who have to like and respect us enough to honor us with their business! We don't need 40,000 new customers a year to pay the bills. I suspect your numbers are higher than 20, but certainly still not considered "volume."

Anyway, I'm watching these blogs closely for material for my book... so, Thanks!

JAN

2009

Janet, I've just read the majority of the posts above and there's been lots of great insight - THIS is what I love about AR!! I've got so many thoughts running through my head as I read these posts that I'm just going to hit some bullet points as I think of them:

Realtor who don't like the marketing materials - you know, I can't stand MOST marketing stuff I'm bombarded with either. You know, all the credit repair companies, wholesale lenders, and lead generation promises. However, ONCE in a while I discover a nugget in all the junk - most recently it was the Loan Sifter product. Helps me track rates for my clients and made me money in the first week! So, make it a point to ONLY send marketing material that is trully valuable to a Realtor and at least you can sleep at night knowing you sent them somethign to help.
Marketing to Realtors you don't know DOES work. I had two appointments with new Realtors to me just last week - both replied to different pieces I had sent. Both were clear they had existing relationships, but were interested in what I had to say. The funny part was one asked me why he had not seen anything else from me recently! I replied - "well, I had nothing important to say and didn't want to send junk."
Realtors - you ALL met your current lender somehow. It might have been at an MLS meeting, or your client brougth them along. But somehow you decided you LIKED your current lender. No matter how proficient a lender is, I'd doubt you are refer to someone you don't LIKE. Therefore, Janet, the real game winner is to find a way to just get to know the Realtor and let them get to know you - WITHOUT the expectation of any business. If you LIKE each other, it will happen.
A VERY important takeaway from one of the early responders (in fact I cut and pasted into Word for a later reminder) is to stop sending rate sheets and open house flyers (offer them as opt in pieces). Instead, send specific examples of your loan approval guarantee program, how you DO return calls to "preferred Realtor partners" 24/7 (man, that's NUTS to refuse that call!!), and how your systems guarantee an on time closing. Back each piece up with a client testimonial that speaks to that issue.

Thanks for the conversation!

Janet, I am in agreement that realtors should be looking to expand their venue of mortgage professionals. When I first started I did things the wrong way by tending to visit too many places. Often, when I did get an "in" that "in" was not one. I found myself spending way too much money "marketing" and getting no where. Actually, as I quit marketing so much business improved. Over time work found me. Work did slow with the economy and changes but that was to be expected. I think 2009 will be a great year for us all. I know that it has to be better than 2008. I do occassionally send snipets of information as "musings" via email to contacts. I try not to overload people as I feel we all have enough to deal with now.

I read a quote today on another forum that I thought was brilliant...

"Marketing only works on those already interested."

I think that applies nicely to this conversation. Someone's marketing is not likely to catch my eye unless I'm either 1) on the hunt for THAT product RIGHT NOW, or 2) I know and like the person doing the marketing and am interested in what they have to say.

Jennifer, save that quote! Nice a short.

#1 is just a numbers game for all of us - Realtors and lenders or any other service provider - but #2 is where the money is.

Mike

JAN

2009

Michael: I love what you wrote, number 4 is powerful. Thank you....also for recommending loan sifter. I had a presentation at my old company, and was really excited about it. I may need to call you to talk more.

Jennifer: You may not be on the HUNT for a mortgage broker NOW. You may not agree with me that you SHOULD always try to meet and get to know mortgage brokers (even when you have your preferred ones...even when you know you would never refer someone from marketing)_

But every Realtor should be on the hunt for ways to be a better Realtor.

In my mind, that means learning as much about financing as you can... and how it impacts selling your listings, and getting more buyers.

If a mortgage broker is willing to share information that makes you a better Realtor, then there is nothing wrong with taking advantage of this, or using it as an opener to meet a potential partner, in my opinion.

Eric: Thank you for your input! I can clearly see how we are walking the fine line when we market. Lots of mortgage brokers were good enough to tell me what didn't work...just like you.

What I would like to do is probably just what Jennifer is doing. Read all the comments and develop the concepts that come out.

This is an amazing thread...many of these comments are classics.

JAN

2009

Janet, yet another thought-provoking article. I'm getting smarter just reading your blog :-) I tried reading most of the comments, but sometimes too much is too much. So if it's already been said, sorry to double up.

Awhile back, I answered a similar question posed on linkedin. The answer was basically the same as Jennifer's. Not only are the rate sheets, flyers, drop-by visits (along with the cookies), etc, a waste of time (yours and mine) and paper, but if we don't have a business relationship already, it seems a little unprofessional as well. I do, disagree about the coffee/lunch visit, though.

Rate sheets are a complete waste of time. As an agent, I do not need to know the daily quoted rate. All I need is the basic idea of WHERE the rate is right. I need to be able to say to a client "with good credit, your rate will be about 5-6%." That's it. I sell houses, not mortgages. That's your job. You can quote the rates. I can get all the rate information I need from bankrate.com.

I do believe that if you are trying to develop a new relationship with a client (ie, the agent) inviting them to a lunch/coffee date. I would at least be willing to listen to you explain why you can be my next go to mortgage broker.

But if you really want my business, it's pretty simple. It doesn't take rate sheets, cookies, or even referrals. Though referrals are great, I know that you work with more Realtors than just me and that I have a much greater opportunity to refer you than you do me. All you have to do is two things, a) get the job done and b) keep me in the loop on the deal (ie, call me). Jennifer wrote an article that said we want to be "wowed." That's really it.

For instance, I've only recently read 2 of your blog posts. Yet, because of the timely responses from you to comments and the detail in those responses that you give, if I were in your area, I'd give you an opportunity.

Roger: Please don't feel bad about not reading all these comments. I actually do intend to go back and read them just because I would like to compose a post about what DOES work with Realtors.

So thank you for you comments! They are appreciated. Most people did actually agree with Jennifer and not me. I am thrilled about this because it means I was headed off in the wrong direction, and brought back to reality by comments such as yours.

Rate sheets: I think this is a marketing piece that actually COULD have potential. But not in its present format which is boring to Realtors (yeah, and kinda useless)

Cookies and donuts: Old school

Showing that I can get the job done will only happen after we become involved. The question is how do we get the chance to WOW you?

I agree that a face to face meeting is the best way to explore possibilities and commonalities.

But (and forgive me here....I know most have said clearly and loudly that this is not the case):

I think realtionships CAN develop via marketing. Maybe the WAY mortgage brokers are marketing is completely obsolete and that is why Realtors reject it.

What is the new school way?

I am thinking about this. A lot.

PS And I thank you for you kind words...so happy you enjoy my blog.

What is the new school way?

That is the real question, isn't it? From what I've seen here, most mortgage people use the "spray and pray" approach to marketing which is, "if I have enough stuff floating around the RE offices in the area with my name, number and photo on it, then someone is bound to call." In short, throw out enough and something will stick. And despite all of the comments/complaints from agents about this method, in truth, that's largely what we do, too. Just isn't the same when we're the targets, I guess.

Off the top of my head, I'd say that there are 2 "new" approaches to take.

1) Try warm marketing. Successful agents usually already have their 'go-to' brokers and a backup or two. Getting your foot in those doors are hard. I'd use the agents that you have already established a relationship to promote you to other agents within their office. Ask them if any of the other agents, especially newer ones that are starting to grow a client base, may be needing help and see if they can setup a meeting.

2) Forget about marketing to agents and market to buyers. If you develop a system where you have pre-approved buyers wanting to buy and needing an agent, guess what? Agents will start calling YOU to get their foot in your door.

Janet - You asked somewhere in this thread of comments, "if not marketing then what?" Well I believe that Roger has hit the mark with his suggestions and I couldn't agree with him more.

Many of the Realtors I work with and consider my friends came to me by referral from another agent in their office who had worked with me. The other Realtors I work with started referring people to me after I worked across the table from them on a transaction. Yesterday, one of my clients Realtor, who I had never worked with before, referred someone to me becaus after a really difficult and trying escrow that we just closed, she couldn't believe how hard I work for my clients. This is why I don't market to Realtors and I only market to my client base.

Just so's you know... I am using that line "If not marketing, then what?" in my book...

Roger:

Donne and Roger:

Hmmm.....should I write a post about what you (and all of these comments) have taught me?

Or should I put it into action, see if it works, then come back and post.

I cannot tell you how valuable this has been.

Or should I wait for Jennifer's book? Jennifer...what is the title and the concept of this book that you keep mentioning?

Janet - I dare not say that I know what is best for you and your market or what will or will not work for you and your market. I just know what has not worked for me in the past (which is why I no longer do it) and what works for me now (which is what I plan to continue doing more of).

Having said that though, this is not to say that every referral I get works out for me. You just recently posted something about deals blowing up in your face and rest assured, I have my share of those too. some of them, through some miraculous divine intervention, I have been able to save and some I do not. When trying to establish a relationship with Realtors, having things like this happen doesn't serve us well.

I've been lucky though that some of those deals were with Realtor friends of mine and they are well aware of why the deal didn't go through and they know unequivocally that I did everything I could possibly do to make it happen and they don't blame me (some of them want to strangle their clients though or murder some idiotic LA). The point is, if they weren't friends of mine and we didn't already have a good working relationship, those situations could of ended badly for me. I feel blessed that I have the kind of relationship with them that I do.

I hope that if I've tried to get across anything it is that the relationship you have with someone can make or break the possibility of doing any business with them. Sorry for the long comment. I promise the next time I have this much to say, I will email you privately. Have a good day Janet. :)

Janet - sorry, I didn't realize I keep mentioning it - but it's always on my mind these days, so I'm always on the lookout for material! It's a book for non-salesy small-business owners - people who love what they do, but really wish they didn't have to prospect for business... e.g. dog trainers, massage therapists, accountants, introverted real estate agents (!)... what I call Reluctant Prospectors. I am definitely a Reluctant Prospector and I've managed to build a business using strategies that didn't force me out of my comfort zone. So, anyway, this discussion has been really helpful for me because it's about what I believe in - attracting business to you by being exceptional at what you do and excited about what you do, and learning how to get that message out without pestering anyone or throwing away a bunch of money on wasted marketing.

I have a bunch of tentative titles and I'll probably be looking for feedback on them soon! Thanks so much for asking!

Realtor/mortgage broker relationships from my observation are very very delicate realtionships.

You are right to say that 3 years of nurturing can go up in smoke when you finally get that loan, and some little something goes wrong that you take the blame for.

Jennifer: Might as well get some promo for the book here . I am excited for you. I know many people aspire to write a book. But you are actually doing it. I am so impressed by that.

I'd do both, Janet. Get it working and get double points, too. :-) Hope it helps.

JAN

2009

Great line of replies!! Here's my funny adds this morning:

I just gained some AWESOME tips from some comments I ACCIDENTALLY read in this thread. It's so long I read some replies that were above my first input. I thought I'd read them all but had not. It was WORTH going back through them all.
Jodie Carpine - hello from Lake Spokane! Your comment about the lender that screwed the referal is a key point - I recently met a local agent who is a solid producer and has a couple of lenders that have been referred to for the last 3-4 years. And they are "great" according to the agent. Well, two transactions recently fell apart for reasons that the lender should have prevented. I won't go into details here because the parties may be on AR as well. My point Janet, is that even GREAT Realtors are open to new relationships every day becuase of some slip up by their current lender. Justified or not, it happens.
Jennifer Allan - you mention that agents only need about 20 transactions per year to survive. For what it's worth, it's about the same for us lenders. Actual numbers depend upon our commisssion split, average loan amounts, ect. If you need real numbers for some reason give me a call and I'd be happy to fill you in!

It's ALL about the relationships baby! If I LIKE you, I'll work with you. If you LIKE me, you'll work with me.

When's lunch?

Michael:

In all these comments no one except you came up with the "I'm number 2. I try harder" concept. Yet all you need to do is a little bit of reading around the Rain to find out how many mortgage brokers get fired!

That is one of the reasons I always try to promote Realtors having more horses in the stable than just your favorite one to ride (no pun intended!)

But the reverse is also true: Why worry if a Realtor tells you they already HAVE lenders? From what I can tell, at least one of them is about to get fired! LOL

Janet - I'm sure that one little line of yours "Why worry if a Realtor tells you they already HAVE lenders? From what I can tell, at least one of them is about to get fired!" could start a whole new line of comments. Think I'll hang around a little while longer to see where your latest comment goes. I'm guessing that you just vocalized what many of us (mortgage professionals) already think.

Donne: You know me, never at a loss for words or opinions. When I first started with ActiveRain they used to feature a lot of mortgage bashing stories from Realtors. Lots of these stories you could plainly see that the poor mortgage broker wasn't even at fault! All the Realtors would jump on the bankwagon and tell their own story.

I got so outrgaged that I actually e-mailed ActiveRain and asked them what possible GOOD could come out of airing dirty stinky laundry on our featured page!!!!!? That mortgage brokers often get blamed for things that go wrong that are out of our control!!!! That we are trying to IMPROVE relationships not tear them down.

Somewhere, somehow, someone got the message. You do not see these bashing posts (featured anyway)

And for the record, I am all for anyone writing anything they want, including rants about mortgage brokers. I just do not feel they are appropriate for our featured page, and that these rants do nothing to enhance the image of our industry, which is already tarnished enough....

Janet - YOU GO GIRL!!! As a newbie to AR, I also am a little astonished at the amount of mortgage/lender bashing that I see and when I see particularly one-sided bashing it gets my defenses up and I feel the overwhelming need to defend my fellow mortgage professionals.

I assure you, for every bad lender/mortgage consultant post I read, I could write two bad Realtor posts. Based on my limited blog posts, I typically keep my opinions to my self. Comments, on the other hand, are a whole other matter, although I do often have to mind my p's and qu's there too.

As you stated though, in the end, we should be helping each other promote our respective industries to the consumer in a better light because we (real estate/mortgage professionals) suffer from the same poor public image.

JAN

2009

Janet (& Donne),

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your conversation and agree with you on MANY points. Personally, I don't market to agents - waste of time. I did, for about 6 months, then realized I was hitting my head against a brick wall when I took one out for lunch and then, less than a week later, she didn't even recognize me at a Chamber function.

It's funny ironic now, however. Almost 100% of our business for ** well ** over two years now, has been referral from CLIENTS. And, since our purchase market is slow, how many of those agents who wouldn't give me the time of day are now knocking on MY door. A little too late. Sorry :( I have found "my" preferred agents, I'll stick with them.

Great job ladies, defending fellow mortgage professionals. We don't see it enough.

Maryellen

FEB

2009

Janet- I went to your other Post, now am here. I read about 1/2 the comments, and it seems that exactly what I said before it is about the relationship, and a connection that makes the difference, at least to me. I still say that Jason Sardi so far ( although another lender is actually trying to put something together for a client of mine right now) earned my utmost trust a long time ago. How?

Jason didn't earn my trust by rates, or FHA knowledge, or anything like that. He earned it by the comments he has made on hundreds of blogs. I liked that he appeared to be a "real person" and when I called him, he was the same offline as he was on. And even though he can't do CA loans he still answered all my questions........now that is the kind of lender I like....he never said "what's in it for me." I have absolute trust in him, and if he ever gets the license to do loans in CA I would recommend him to absolutely everybody :) It's all about what I remember from what wasn't a ploy to "get business."

AUG

Some great comments here - I picked up a gem from Broker Bryant - whether he was joking or not, I'll get my wife to bake some cookies to send out to those Realtors I wantt o keep in touch with. I'd LOVE to get cookies!

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Janet Guilbault California Mortgage Banker/Broker

Walnut Creek, CA

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Address: 3201 Danville Blvd, Suite 195, Alamo, CA, 94507

Office Phone: (925) 552-3867

Cell Phone: (925) 212-6347

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