Lancaster PA Green Building, Lancaster PA Real Estate 

EDIT/UPDATE TO OUR GREEN BUILDING CONVERSATION...FOR THOSE JUST TUNING IN!  READ THIS SUMMARY FIRST...

SUMMARY
In this post we have discussed various financial impacts of "Green Building" - reduced insurance, up front costs,  greater longevity, eco-friendly mortgages, affordability... We have discussed the health benefits that come with a green building focus. We have discussed the technology and physics behind the latest products for healthy-built homes.

We concluded that we would like to examine a team-effort to create a consulting network of resources for clients and professionals interested in high-performance buildings and eco-friendly land use.

NOW we are working on organizing all the information we have gathered here so that folks who come here in the future can have a "Table of Contents"

This "Table of Contents" also could be the framework for a (to be announced) checklist that eco-certified real estate professionals could use when doing a "high-performance" review for their clients...

Here's what the Table of Contents looks like..so far:

   A. Site Planning & Land Development
   B. Lot Design, Preparation and Development,
   C. Environmental Impact, Ecology, Hydrology, Landscaping
   D. Construction, Building materials and methods
   E. Resource Efficiency
   F. Energy Efficiency
   G. Water Efficiency
   H. Indoor Environmental Quality
   I. Operation, Maintenance and Homeowner Education
   J. Real Estate Services
   K. Consulting Services
   L. Financial Services
   M. Global Impact

We are ready to think about establishing a referral network of professionals who can e a resource for those interested in high-perfromace living spaces and eco-friendly land use.

PLEASE COMMENT BELOW and let us know if you would be interested in being contacted as we develop our "consulting network" information.
______________________________________________________________________________________

...NOW ON WITH MY ORIGINAL ARTICLE ABOUT ONE TYPE OF ENERGY-EFFICIENT BUILDING -  INSULATED CONCRETE FORMS FOR USE IN RESIDENTIAL HOMES.  ENJOY!

In the course of doing my real estate business with a "green" focus I've grown to know some great innovators who are driving the sustainable housing agenda here in southeast PA.  One individual I've been to talking with Tom Reilly of New Holland Concrete's Construction Supply Centers division.  He's in the business of selling Reward Wall's ICFs in southeast PA.  What's an ICF, you ask?  It's a new way of doing homes using concrete walls rather than wood!  Truly a Lancaster County green building innovation.  ICF stands for "Insulated Concrete Form", and they are being used for commercial buildings and are starting to take hold in the residential market.  By using an environmentally-friendly system, significant energy savings can result.

ICF Lancaster PA Reward Walls

I asked Tom to send over some information once I heard that he was doing the foundations for the green homes being built at Lancaster Career & Technology center in Mount Joy.  Here is a little bit about Tom and his passion:

"I've been with Construction Supply Centers (regional distributors of Reward Walls)  since March 2005.  I was brought on board specifically to sell the Reward Wall System.  I was intrigued by the product/industry and as I got more and more into it, I really began to believe in the concept.  It took me a good year to 18 months to get comfortable with ICF's because I was/am dealing with the homeowners, the builders, the subcontractors, the architects AND the engineers.  I had to literally become the expert, and while I'm still learning on a daily basis, I can confidently speak with any of these groups intelligently."

"It's strange how there are pockets where ICF technology is readily accepted, and there are areas where conservative traditions in construction have a stranglehold.  The interest level from the public has grown exponentially over the 2 yrs I've been doing this, and homeowners are coming to the table more and more informed about their choices.

We helped the Lancaster Career & Technology Center build the first of 5 "Green" homes and they chose to use Reward for the foundation." 

He's very enthusiastic and knowledgeable, and I spoke with him about the challenges and rewards of selling ICFs in Lancaster County.  He talked about an "affordability analysis" sheet he's using where he breaks down the actual cost/benefit of switching to an ICF foundation/wall system.

"The Affordability Analysis does help clarify the cost/benefit to interested parties.  It takes the subjectivity out of the picture and helps them to determine a break-even point in terms of payback.  It's more or less a selling tool.  It's hard to describe the feel of an ICF home.  It has a luxurious feel to the interior; it's quiet, it's consistent in terms of temperature.  Your mechanicals are reduced because of the tight envelope, and they run less.  In fact, geothermal takes forever to pay back because it never runs.  They work well together in the "green" mode, but it truly does take longer to pay back on geo."



"We did a home up in Wilkes-Barre that was 81' across the back.  From one end to the other, there was a 0.5 degree variance in temperature.  That was impressive.  Another home we did in Bellefonte has 4000 sf of living space.  Total utility bills, after being audited recently, came out with an annual cost of about $400."

"It's kind of like the Cadillac/Yugo selling comparison; there's a market for both, but if you're trying to compete cost-wise and the dollar is the determining factor, 9 times out of 10 ICF's will lose.  It's the client who can look past the initial, up-front costs, who sees the long-term benefit in energy savings and to the environment where we do well."

For more information on the Reward Wall System click here.  To contact Tom email him here.  I appreciated the chance to learn more about this great new technology in green building.  You'll be hearing more about this and other green building opportunities in Lancaster County, PA.

green building lancaster pa jeff geoghan

Update -- click here for an update on this profile and an article on Tom's work with Garman Homes of Lancaster.  Mike Garman and Norm Faus have constructed an all-ICF home for display in this year's Lancaster Parade of Homes!  We look forward to more news as the "green' building movement spreads throughout PA and the US.

 

339 Comments on A Green Building Conversation For Today's Changing Market

MAY
04
2007
3 Featured Posts
Jeff, thanks for the additional links and information. One of the Realtors in my office had an ICF new construction home. I was able to watch most of the above ground home. Was glad to hear that this huge home was guaranteed to have all utility costs less than $900.00 per year. I'm not sure what the audit came up with for the home, I'm sure there was some leway.
3:24pm • #1
MAY
05
2007
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Gary, thanks for your comment.  ICFs are going to be a key new ingredient in foundation and wall construction once the word gets out about the actual cost/value long-term, in my opinion...
10:13pm • #2
MAY
17
2007

Thanks for the information Jeff. I am working with a builder using the ICF's who has followed in his father's footsteps. His father starting using ICF's and trying to make them a household word during the late 80's and early 90's in Michigan . Talk about guys ahead of the times!!! ICF's are truly amazing.

Good luck with New Holland Concrete and keep spreading the green word!

11:20pm • #3
MAY
18
2007
255,770 Points 7 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
Buzz, thanks for your comments.  Try posting some pics of ICF's going in, so we can learn more and you can promote your builder!
12:32pm • #4

Jeff, there will be some pictures and blogs on our project coming. Right now Mary Bigelow has a great blog on the Herkelrath Project in Onekama Michigan that we are involved in with Adam Bearup, Hybrid Homes. Take a look at her blog.

1:42pm • #5
MAY
22
2007
2 Featured Posts

Thanks Jeff, Mary Bigelow checking in! I am working on a blogging project about Adam Bearup of Hybrid Homes who truly believes in ICF's. Adam has a terrific project in North-Western Michigan he is building as a tour home for the Michigan Energy Fair.

Aside from creating a healthy, efficient environment for the homeowner, Adam is a true believer in recycling all the waste from the jobsite. Honestly, I have never seen a more tidy home being built. My mother would be proud.

Thanks for your post about New Holland ICF's...I'll be looking forward to future posts!

 

12:56am • #7
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YAY!!!! YEAH!  YES!!! 

3,000 cheers and 10,000 happy bows to Y'ALL!

This is the kind of conversation that enlightens and inspires greatness in all of us. PLEASE ad just a few photos. Do you have a digital camera Jeff? Buzz/..Mary already does this. I want to showcase your work..as per the Gold Star CHALLENGE...get this kind of information out to 30,000+ REALTORS who can benefit from your wisdom  and experience.

8:43am • #8
315,559 Points 64 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Jeff, Buzz and Mary~ 

Here's to you...[EDIT]This post, and the conversation it has generated ren=ninds why you won the ECO Gold Star

Here's an example of an article that makes me look forward to dropping in for a visit at Active Rain...and staying for a while...and the reason I subscribe to your BLOGS.****

8:47am • #9
2 Featured Posts

JaneAnne,

Thanks for pushing us all along! We have Buzz in training and he is catching on well! First I'm teaching him how a keyboard works, next it will be a camera! How fun is that! You are truly an inspiration!

8:49am • #10
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Mary, thanks for the links to Adam's project site.  Seems as if he's ahead of the curve and marketing himself well - great stuff!  I'm looking forward to more pics of his Michigan Energy Fair home as it progresses. 

9:40am • #11
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I've posted a couple of shots of the Lancaster Career & Technology Center's green home using ICFs on Localism under Lancaster County/Mount Joy, which is where the school's project home is going up.  I'll post them here when I'm back in my office...
9:42am • #12
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JaneAnne and Mary, thanks for the Gold Star!  I rather think that Tom Reilly and Adam Bearup deserve it more...can I invite Tom Reilly to AR as a supplier?  Just a thought...
9:44am • #13
2 Featured Posts

You are very welcome Jeff! You are correct - Tom and Adam deserve the credit. It is also important for us to keep highlighting their efforts! You are doing your part! You are welcome for the links - Adam does a very good job chronicaling his work. Buzz and I will be taking a trip to Northern Michigan later this week to update Adam's project. Adam is ahead of the curve and he is moving along on this project very quickly. The Michigan Energy Fair is only a month away and Herkelrath project needs to be ready!

 

11:17am • #14
Seeing as how we are learning the keyboard the camera will come shortly with much help and encouragement from our partner Mary. We hope to have some new pictures this week, next week at the latest of the project in Onekama.
11:28am • #15
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Let's get the rest  of the ECO-All-Stars in on this conversation...it's abut teamwork and enterprise...for sustainable communities...any suggestions?
8:40pm • #17
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I think there's more going on at the local level than even we think...we need to get our members to make a call to an area supplier and find out who's selling, for example, Reward Walls in their area.  Then they could do a phone interview about what business is like and post the conversation for all to read.  There's lots of green building products to choose from - just start with Google for green building in your city/county etc.  it'd be good research & exposure!

8:46pm • #18
2 Featured Posts

Jeff, I like that idea! and THIS is what is going on at my local level!  

You may ask -- why is a Mortgage Broker talking about builders and lumberyards? Ah, a future blog!

While these guys are putting forth such a tremendous effort to coordinate the homebuilding I am chronicaling...

I am also learning a new "trade". How fun to get so deeply involved in a project! My old boss used to say "Mary, you know way too much about that house." My new boss says, get involved and help these guys get the word out! Isn't that just the greatest! I love my job! 

Jeff -- delve in at the local level, they need your expertise and EXCITEMENT!!! not to mention your word of mouth advertising!

 

Thanks JaneAnne -- I agree, all the ECO-stars need to come out on this one! On all of our behalf --thank you for the gold star!

9:09pm • #19
MAY
23
2007
255,770 Points 7 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
Mary, I like what you're saying.  It's been my experience that those small businesspeople laboring in the sustainable markets like solar, energy audits, new construction tech and the like are "in the background" rather than the "foreground".  It'd be fun to blog about them and let Google do the rest...
11:09am • #20
2 Featured Posts

Absolutely Jeff. I think with gas prices climbing higher more of us boomers are remembering that during the energy crisis of the 70's we swore we would do something about it. Then the economy got fat and we forgot about it while we did other things.

Now as we face the crisis again, we wish we had kept our promises. It is not only the gas prices but our wastefulness as a country. With internet technology, google, and all the other tools at our disposal now we can make a difference. I applaud you for bringing this to light!

(super @ $3.95 in Michigan today -- of course, the holiday is coming! Lots of SUV's and Motor Homes on the road)

11:01pm • #21
MAY
27
2007
Our society is a reactive one. We react to the high gas prices and our rising costs of energy. I choose to be proactive and hope that as each new person learns of the ways to conserve energy, not just in building new homes, that their lightened impact on our precious unrenewable resources will make a difference.
Adam- "The Hybrid Home Guy"
8:39am • #22
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Mary, sorry I missed your coment earlier - Thats a HIGH price for gas!  Eeks!
10:47pm • #23
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Adam - you are right to take the proactive road - the rub is in the marketing - drawing the average consumer closer to your vision with their hard-earned dollars.  Here is where I think Realtors can help.
10:49pm • #24
315,559 Points 64 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

OK~ this sure has proven to be a CONVERSATION WORTH JOINING.! I've been thinking that a good part of what we do as real estate professionals is research. Here we begin a conversation that opens doors and opens eyes. It can be both an enlightening and enlivening experience as you read through this conversation.

This conversation takes us to leading edge research. Certainly it is worthwhile reading. More to the point....it's worthwhile brining your information to the discussion. Add your .02 cents. .. 

THANKS Jeff, Buzz, Mary...and All

 

11:28pm • #25
MAY
28
2007

Jeff,

The average consumer is not that interested in what I do, yet. The average consumer is usually going to fall in line after they see projects being completed, most people understand that. There is a very distinct group of people in our state that are having homes built this way. What it is doing though is creating awareness among the average consumers and making them ask their builders or realtors 'what makes you green'. I have been told that I am one of a few builders that can broadcast the work we do in a way that keeps people's attention, and that is a big part of this entire green building push. The more we broadcast these techniques and the hard lines that we hold with our practices, the more it creates awarenes among others to not only build this way, but to protect themselves against builders who are calling themselves green but really are not.

I agree that realtors can help us connect with the right people, but it needs to be done for the right reasons. Money is definately a great motivator, but for me, sitting in the dark someday because we used up all our unrenewable resources motivates me more. I am excited to see blogs like this because it makes what we do worth it. The critics I have can be nasty as they try to sway me from my hardline about building to LEED-H certification. However, someone once told me that if you have critics, people are listening.

Thank you everyone for your interest and stay tuned to www.wmhybrid.com to see how the Show House for the 2007 Michigan Energy Fair is progressing.....

Adam-"The Hybrid Home Guy"
9:26am • #26
I forgot to wish everyone a happy and safe Memorial Day and remind everyone to thank a veteran and remember those who gave the ultimate sacrifice to allow us to do what we do.
Adam-"The Hybrid Home Guy"
9:45am • #27
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JaneAnne - it'll be interesting to see what people come up with - do some internet searching and I think they'll be surprised who is already in their backyard!
1:18pm • #28
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"someone once told me that if you have critics, people are listening"

Good comment, Adam.  In my observations it seems that the LEED certification is problematic to explain to a consumer, while energy savings would be at the other end of the difficulty scale.  How do you present this as a "benefit" rather that a "feature", if you get my drift?

1:25pm • #29
533,085 Points 45 Featured Posts Outside Blog
Jeff - are there any environmental downsides to the Reward system? Only recently when a company was applying for permits for an ethanol plant in the Tampa area did I realize that the water needed to manufacture ethanol is enormous! That's a big problem for our area.
5:07pm • #30
2 Featured Posts

Sharon,

I'd like to chime in here! You are so on the mark with your comment

"Only recently when a company was applying for permits for an ethanol plant in the Tampa area did I realize that the water needed to manufacture ethanol is enormous!"

I am just jumping into the Green Scene and am learning the trade-offs of what it costs in resources, scrap, by-products, transportation costs, etc. in regards to the points system. The other fault is that points can be gained for somethings as a trade off for others. LEED-H and EnergyStar are both great systems but each have their faults.

Arina brought to AR attention that LEED-H is in an open comment period for public comment through June 27, 2007. I believe comments like yours will help shape these organizations so they look at all aspects of "green" and "green washing" is minimized. 

 


11:35pm • #31
MAY
29
2007
255,770 Points 7 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
Mary, thanks for bringing that point abour LEED to our attention!
1:19pm • #32
MAY
30
2007

This is something to think about and how to present the LEED certification process. It is a great place to start. Keep in mind that LEED is a voluntary rating system. Being a voluntary program sets the builder's using the certification apart from others in the marketplace. It's not an easy thing to accomplish so it highlights the extra efforts they will go through to provide a premium product.

Great discussion! Any one else have ideas?

8:25am • #33
2 Featured Posts

Jeff - I think the comments need to be different, not the same one 200 times! Ha! LOL. Don't you just hate it when that happens?

To expand on Buzz's comment it is important to keep in mind the green building is not necessarily about the products as much as it is the process and the system that is developed. It is important to have a great team working together and to keep them all involved throughout the process. I was reading on the LEED site last night that contributions should be made by all members, even if it's not their area of expertise and that getting out of your comfort zone can lead to some great "outside the box" thinking.

This blog is a great example of that type of process at work.

10:45am • #34
176,066 Points 2 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
It is great to see inovative ideas I haven't seen before, I will be looking into seeing if anyone is doing these types of construction here in Western Washington. Wish I had the resources to build a new energy efficient home, I'll be working on that too.
12:29pm • #35
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Mary, I was posting comments and it kept giving me an error - so I reposted it a few times.  Well, it got back at me!  I deleted the buggers.

 

2:19pm • #36
MAY
31
2007
Hi to Mary and Buzz - I've been out for awhile but here I am:)  Jeff, the more we as RE professionals read and understand about ICF's and other eco-friendly materials, the more comfortable we are talking about and promoting them.  I'm certainly trying to expand my horizons.
6:54am • #37
2 Featured Posts

Glad you're back Ed! I would love to have you accompany me to Onekama and see first hand how well the teamwork works with Hybrid Homes. It is amazing to find someone who is so green to the heart and lives the philosophy. Just as with the ECO All-Stars group I am finding people who truly believe in the EcoFriendly are so willing to share of themselves and their knowledge.

Incidently, if you and Ben aren't busy the weekend of June 22 - 24 the Michigan Energy Fair is happening and will be "20 hour days among the knowedgeable and willing." as David Bahle says! I'm sure I can arrange some lodging!

You are on the forefront helping to blaze a trail - as we all come together we will no longer be a misplaced seedling trying to survive Honeysuckle Seedling

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Together we can come together and develop the greatness and majesty much like the rain forest and have a positive impact on our great earth. The diversity of our personalities, careers and knowledge will help make this happen!

http://www.srl.caltech.edu/personnel/krubal/rainforest/Edit560s6/www/plants.html

(Tropical Greenhouse - Source: http://www.srl.caltech.edu/personnel/krubal/rainforest/Edit560s6/www/plants.html)

12:09pm • #38
JUN
01
2007
1 Featured Post Localism Sponsor

Jeff- I have been out for what seems likd a very long time and almost missed this conversation. I am wondering how ICF might be different form concrete blocks which have been used for a long time for building homes in developing countries, stacked almost the way bricks are stacked.

In New Mexico, straw is being used increasingly in green residential construction. I often wonder if we would have enough of thews materials if, indeed, their use became widespread. There has been a shortage of concrete. Could we provide enough straw to build all the homes we need?

 

12:45am • #40

Hi Eloise - if I can comment here - concrete block is hollow, it can be insulated in a couple of ways but not one tenth as well as an ICF wall. ICF walls feature 2 1/2" of foam on the outside and 2 1/2" of foam on the inside which sandwiches  6 " of concrete and rerod.

A concrete block is 8" x 16" with three hollow cavities that can be insulated but very efficiently. If that is your wall it is transferring the cold right through the block. Concrete block is cost effective, it just doesn't have the ability to be insulated like an ICF wall is. Kind of like comparing a yugo to a Jag -

Hybrid Homes is using ICF for all outside walls on the total structure, not just the basement. This adds strength to the structure as well as insulating properties/energy efficiency  to the complete house.

This would be a great place for Adam to jump in and comment! We could use his additional expertise!

12:39pm • #41
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Thanks, Buzz for that reply.  Good discussion!

Don't forget to congratulate JaneAnne on her May honors as top moderator... 

4:09pm • #42

Well said Buzz.

We do several things to limit the amounts of concrete that we use. First, we add fly ash to the mixture and sometimes up to 40% of the mixture is fly ash. Flay ash is whats left over from burning coal in coal powered power plants. Also, we add air entrainment which basically replaces some of the mixture with air.

ICFs are cost effective if the right people are using them. Concrete blocks allow frost and cold temperatures to pass through unstopped and is one of the main reasons for burst water pipes in cold climates. ICFs are as Buzz stated concrete sandwiched between two layers of expanded polystyrene which is the same material that you see in foam coolers or foam cups. Infact, the Dart coporation that makes those products lets us drop off our scrap foam to them to recyle. Yay Dart!

Goto my website if you need to learn more, www.wmhybrid.com. Otherwise, email me and I will call you..

 

Adam-"The Hybrid Home Guy"
10:13pm • #43
JUN
05
2007

To add to the conversation just a bit, the material used in manufacturing the majority of ICF's is a material called Expanded Polystyrene (EPS.)  This material is manufactured with no CFC's, HCFC's or formaldehyde.  When it burns, it gives off less toxins than white pine wood.  You are exposed to more toxins sitting next to a camp fire than you are a burning pile of scrap ICF's.  It is completely different than extruded polystyrene (XPS,) which is the board-type insulation that is manufactured in 4 x 8 sheets.  This insulation does have a higher R-value per inch, but it is very toxic when it burns due to the chemicals used in the extrusion process.

 Additionally, the ties used to create the ICF panels are made from recycled plastic.  Combined with using "green" concrete (higher fly ash content, etc.,) you have a very environmentally-friendly product.  However, as has been noted earlier in this thread, "green" is more of a process than any particular product and it incorporates numerous systems designed to work in synergy with one another to minimize environmental impact.

As for ICF's vs. block, the difference is significant, although the true benefit of ICF's is realized in above-grade construction.  Below-grade, all wall systems utilize the earth's natural insulation which is why most basements are cooler than the balance of the home.  The true difference between ICF's and block is structural.  ICF's offer a monolithic, cast-in-place wall that is insulated to an R-32 average.  Rebar is used throughout the wall, increasing the overall strength.  Also, because you aren't stripping the forms, as is typical for poured wall foundations, the concrete cures continuously.  After 1 year, we are finding that a 3000 PSI mix design is curing at nearly 6000 PSI.  As a result, more and more residential ICF foundation work is completed using a 6" core rather than your typical 8" or 10" block or poured wall.

With block walls, every mortar joint is a potential leak point.  Unless grout is used to fill the voids, block walls are not monolithic.  Additionally, the process to furr out and insulate a block wall is sequential (lay the block, THEN attach furring strips, THEN insulate,) where as an ICF wall completes all 3 steps at once. 

 I could go on an on with details suitable for insomniacs, but I'll leave it at that.  Suffice it to say that ICF construction does contribute to building "green," and we are seeing a consistent growth in interest from the general public.  My suspicions are that it will continue.  To Adam's point, ICF's are not the cheapest way to build a wall, but they can be cost-effective if the right person is using them.  They are not for everyone, but outside of oxygen, what is?       

Tom Reilly
10:10am • #44
2 Featured Posts

Thanks Tom for the detailed information. You certainly have added good content to this conversation.

" "green" is more of a process than any particular product and it incorporates numerous systems designed to work in synergy with one another to minimize environmental impact." I think this the key with the "green" build. I am seeing first hand that each component and "human" element is like putting together a recipe. Leave out the sugar or salt and your tasty treat becomes something completely different. Professionals like yourself are so critical in helping to educate consumers as well as other professionals to the benefits. Thanks for your input!

12:53pm • #45
JUN
07
2007
315,559 Points 64 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Everyone~

Here's a conversation that opens doors and new perspectives! This conversation takes you to the  edge and stretches your outlook!

ADD your information to the discussion. ...whee else could your .02 cents be so valuable?? Here we have an opportunity to demonstrate as a group the weaving ofa powerful conversation that informs and creates the kind of energy that makes a difference for real estate professionals and their clients.

THANKS to Jeff, Mary and Buzz for starting the conversation...

***Sustainable AR-Folk Subscribe to BLOGS, Comment and Bring Energy to Each Post They Read!"

11:33pm • #46
2 Featured Posts

Good Job Keeping this Going JaneAnne --

I met with my Hybrid Builder, Adam,  yesterday - Many of the ICF's are easier for the crew to assemble and the cement crew to pour than others - all ICF's are not made the same from my understanding. Adam saved several thousands of dollars labor because his "legos for big boys" as Gary Smith so affectionately calls them -- went together so easily.

I'm not trying to pit one brand against another - just raising the point to see the forest, through the trees, as I have heard said (affectionately, no doubt) so many times by those in the construction industry!

Anyone else out there have comments or suggestions????

 

 

11:58pm • #47
JUN
08
2007

Mary,

Each crew is going to like the brand that works best for them. The brand we use does save us gobs of time and limits the chances for blow outs.

This is piggy backing off of the LEED-H conversation that was up the post a little way.

LEED-H is a benefit. It will not appeal to the average buyer, but for those passionate about the environment it will. Any other green certifications out there besides LEED-H were formed by Home Builders Associations or groups from the specific industries that they represent. This poses a problem. You end up with a certification that has no credibility which in turn does not equal a benefit. If youwant to learn more on my stance so I do not have to mention names here, just email me.

LEED-H benefits not only the environment, but the homeowner and builder as well. It gives the builder a guideline or specific track to follow which helps the homeowner to find a builder that is versed in new techniques and in synch with what is trying to be accomplished. I like to refer to LEED-H as 'by the people for the people." All others are by the builder for the builder or plug in the industry after the word by.

Energy Star is outdated but still weighs very heavy in LEED-H.

Here is a tid-bit from what I do to make the cost of LEED-H worth it. Goto this link and read what I wrote: http://www.wmhybrid.com/hybrid_journal_by_adam_bearu.htm

You will read what I wrote on using Hybrid Projects to get better prices on items going onto these homes. The cost of LEED-H is what gets thrown out there the most. It costs about $1,500 to certify a house. If a builder has any marketing skills what so ever, they will find ways to use their high profile projects to offset that cost like I did. We were given a number of deals on out projected LEED-H Platinum home in Onekama, including 4 Toto dual flush toilets. That was worth more than the cost of LEED-H, now that is a benefit!!!

Adam-"The Hybrid Home Guy"
6:06am • #48
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Comment by Loretta Buckner, Broker in Tampa Bay Florida:

I think as a profession, we also should all be aware of the impact of our automobiles--so very necessary to our business--on our environment.  I've been researching alternatives that can look nice with the least impact: 

first choice (yikes!  look at that price tag!):  Tesla  (oh, yeah...)

ok, more readily attainable: something bio-diesel convertible

anybody know of any sporty diesels?  convertible rabbit, mebbe?

 

 

copied from CHALLENGE post into this conversation by...

9:04am • #49
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I had a client a few years ago who did something like this.  It was the first time I had heard of this option.  I like the cost benefit analysis -- it helps people understand how they will save money in the long run - and at the same time protect the environment. 
10:07am • #50
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Folks, I've revised and updated post to make it more interactive and interesting.  Hope you enjoy the read...

I had a GREAT day out at the Career & Technology Center homesite today (thanks Kim Patrick).  Tom Reilly was there talking about  the ICFs used in the home, so I posted some pics here (yes, one of me - shameless eh?).  There were some other great innovators who I'll be posting about this afternoon.  Thanks to all who attended!  Hey, I was even on TV...eeks.

 

2:58pm • #51
114,008 Points 7 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I love an outside  of the box concept.

 I just watched a series about "retired" steel cargo containers being used as homes. I will have to write a post for ya. Thanks for sharing this with us Jeff as  we all know mother nature is smiling that we can "choose to not use" . (ps. I made that up- it is my motto!  i try to stop myself to thing long enough "is this really necessary" )

ps- love Lancaster. Lived in Lewisburg (Bucknell) 4 yrs. beautiful BUT hated snow! (from Florida, go figure!)

5:50pm • #52
3 Featured Posts

Jeff, it's nice to see this subject finally gaining some traction since you first posted. Like all "newer" technology it takes some time for leaders to notice.

BTW, are these homes marketed under the EnergyStar certification or has certification been applied for?

10:09pm • #53
JUN
09
2007
255,770 Points 7 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
Thanks, Gary - yes, I know that Energy Star certification is a foundational goal for the project.  I'm sure they will certainly be marketed under that.
9:58am • #54
182,628 Points 11 Featured Posts Outside Blog

 

 This conversation is stimulating and very eye-opening. I would be curious however, how much of this long term cost and energy saving technology is being directed towards "Affordable Housing".

It would appear that the savings on Green Housing along with Hybrid Cars, are being passed on to those who need them the least.

Arguably the improvement to the Environment is shared...but the overall day to day savings benefits(heating,gas mileage etc.) Are only available to those select few who can afford to buy them !

12:48pm • #55
200,961 Points 6 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I imagine this would be a great protection in Hurricane and Tornado prone areas.

Have the Insurance Companies jumped on the bandwagon yet by giving reductions for homes built with these materials?

Ginger

 

1:53pm • #56

In response to Joan's post, the company I work for and the product I represent are heavily involved with Habitat for Humanity.  We donated the materials for one job and are working on a group of homes for a chapter that is purchasing the materials at a reduced cost.  The manufacturer provides us with additional relief and we reduce our margins to basically cover costs.

 In addition, I make it a point to be onsite to assist the volunteers in putting the "big boy lego's" together.  We also made a significant donation at the Mount Joy project Jeff mentioned in this thread.  Any effort to promote "green" building is a step in the right direction and when we can make these technologies accessible to the Affordable Housing sector, it's a win-win for everyone.

In response to the Sala comment, insurance companies are giving discounts (up to 50% in some cases,) for ICF-built homes.  The fire-ratings of these homes, when built to the roofline, are tremendous.  ICF walls have been tested to withstand winds in excess of 200 mph.  Blast testing on ICF walls was conducted at Quantico and they were able to get 100 lbs of TNT to within 10 ft. of the wall.  While the foam was obliterated, the structural integrity of the wall was not affected.

I do have an affordability analysis comparing an ICF home with a poured wall/2 x 6 frame home.  It compares up-front costs, montly energy usage and savings and also includes insurance premium comparisons.  Anyone interested in seeing a copy can email me at treilly@constructionsupplycenters.com and I'll be happy to shoot you a copy.

 Tom

Tom Reilly
10:09pm • #57
JUN
10
2007
2 Featured Posts
Thanks Tom! I'm glad Sala asked about the insurance discounts - I'm glad they are stepping on board and responding. Your company is to be commended for the contributions to Habitat! Keep up the good work and thanks for being active in this discussion. Together we can get the word out about alternative building products!
12:04am • #58
130,284 Points 9 Featured Posts Outside Blog
Jeff, Excellent post with excellent converstation! I didn't see anyone answer your question about inviting Tom to AR as a supplier. (It may be the lack of coffee and early morning hour) Tom could really add to AR with his information, I think Adam could to. If you haven't invited them yet, I think you should.
Anyone else have thoughts on this?
5:44am • #59
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Lysa, yep I have been after Tom to join our merry band.  He claims it's in his datebook...haven't talked to Adam - Mary, is that your area?

Everyone - great comments and information.  I'm really impressed with the insurance ramifications of ICFs.  Perhaps we can get some input from anyone who has experience with insuring a "green" built home - what are the advantages there generally-speaking?

9:31pm • #60
2 Featured Posts

I am meeting with an insurance rep this week and will pose the question and extend an invite.

As for Adam Bearup, I will remind him after the Energy Fair that we are here and waiting for his input! I am hoping he will have more time to join and contribute to this community! I have a few others in mind that will have awesome input. Currently, I know they are consumed with getting this project ready (Michigan Energy Fair) and have limited internet access on the job site!

They are all very impressed with our networking organization and have many times extended thanks to all of us for raising awareness!

Thanks Lysa for being on the prowl for new contributors.

Thanks ECO-AllStars for all the help getting our word out! We ARE having a great impact!

10:28pm • #61
2 Featured Posts

Jeff - I was just refreshing through this post -

It looks like in the last picture you are standing in an ICF surrounded room. Am I right? If so, did you notice, like I did, the superb sound quality in the room?

10:30pm • #62
JUN
11
2007
197,640 Points 56 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Jeff, I had the opportunity to see a LEED home and it was amazing. There is NO comparison to Energy Star.  The builder is focusing his efforts on Residential building as opposed to commercial and we both agree that explaining to the consumer what LEED is would be an overwheling task. 

There should definitely be more in the news about it.  It's healthier, quieter, cleaner....I could keep going but I won't. :)  Also, You would never know by looking at the homes.  LEED homes can be just as beautiful as any other.

This was a great post.  Thanks for sharing it with us!

12:14am • #63
130,284 Points 9 Featured Posts Outside Blog

You're welcome, It seems they both could add a lot to our online community, as they are already adding to the real world communities in their area.

From where I sit, it seems they enjoyed getting in on this converstation. Have you told them the about the other benefits of AR? :)

5:36am • #64
2 Featured Posts

Lysa, Adam and his associates are so excited about AR and what we are doing. Adam has shared how hits to his website have recently increased and he is sure it is correlated to the AR community. He'll be on board soon! I'm excited about that because he has so much knowledge, and like other eco-friendly people, he is so willing to share.

Stephanie - you are right about LEED being so much further than Energy Star. What I love about LEED is that it is by the consumer, for the consumer. As a voluntary program it also highlights which builders are true to their commitment. :)

9:13am • #65
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OK...Maybe a list of certification requirements might be a good thing to put on the table about now...Here's the list from NC Healthy Built Homes! Tell me how you think it compares to LEED certification...
10:00am • #66
200,961 Points 6 Featured Posts Outside Blog

it's terrific that the Insurance Industry is behind this concept with a 50 % discount. Are they marketing heavily to Hurricane prone areas?

Ginger

10:01am • #67
2 Featured Posts

Hi JaneAnne,

LEED for Homes 
Here's the link for LEED for Homes. They have a pilot program running which they are actively tweaking. Thanks for your link to NC Healthy Built Homes - I will take some time to look through them both and compare/contrast. After a quick glance at NC Healty Built Homes it looks like it encompasses many of the same qualifiers.

Thanks for the info! 

1:04pm • #68
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Mary, you are right!  The sound quality in the ICF basement I was was spectacular.  I thought of a home theatre application instantly...

 

5:21pm • #69
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Mary/Janeanne - the certification materials can be mind-boggling to try to sort through.  A good place to start is the table of contents - simple!  I like to take one section at a time and try to digest that before moving on.

I'm looking forward to our annual building industry association "parade of homes" this coming weekend - we have a 100% ICF home that Tom sold to Garman Builders.  They named it the "Reilly" after him!  Hah!

 

7:10pm • #70
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Ginger & Roger - I agree 100% - the insurance industry is usually looking to raise our rates - it's nice to see clear opportunities to make them GO DOWN!
7:22pm • #71
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That's interesting. I didn't think about it affecting insurance.  Between ICF and other Recycled Insulators, solar lighting i.e. solar tubes, tankless water heaters, etc. you would think that it should.  Reduction in mold and mildew occurences, more fire resistance, metal and ceramic roofing would reduce chances of hail damage and wind damage.  Makes sense to me.
8:48pm • #72
2 Featured Posts

Jeff - post some pix of the completed "Reilly" -- How cool is that!! An Irish name like Tom's makes me think green to begin with and top it off with green building! I guess Tom was born for this line of work! Great suggestion on sorting...thanks!

I'm in agreement with the thoughts on the insurance industry - if they are not currently doing this they need to be hounded and lobbyed to make changes.

10:13pm • #73
JUN
12
2007
315,559 Points 64 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

OK Everyone.......I am wondering not about certification, not about insurance...but about FINANCING...I think Bill Westel did a post on this awhile back..Bill..are you around?? [EDIT..nope it was James Holmes  New Resources to Fund Green Built Real Estate Projects  

Anyone else care to give us a heads-up on green building and financing?

8:58am • #74
2 Featured Posts

Oops JaneAnne!!! That is my neck of the woods although I would love to compare notes with Bill. Since you asked.....(highlights of a future blog!!!)

I am after lenders to offer more than they currently are. What they are doing now is great, but I would like to do even better.

Among my products is a tremendous Construction - Perm Loan (CP Loan). I am able to finance based on finished appraised product rather than acquisition cost. This makes a huge difference in terms for the homeowner.

The CP Loan is a one time close which saves the homeowner closing costs. Additionally, the land can be paid for at close and a deposit to the builder (up to 10%) within 10 days. Realtors are also paid at the initial closing which is HUGE!!! There is no land seasoning required if the land changes hands at the CP Loan Closing -- also huge!

The way most of the one time CP loans work is that they are interest - only through the construction period,  the interest only is based only on the current draws. As the project progresses, the interest only payments will increase proportionally to the draws. It makes sense that they will be small at the beginning of the project and larger towards the end.

On a "normal" project the lender plans for 3 - 5 draws, depending on the value of the home. With Adam's Hybrid Homes we will be working on a customized draw schedule that may include more frequent/greater amount of draws. We are going to tailor the program to his needs as Adam likes to save the homeowner money by paying the vendors/suppliers quickly. There are normally some discounts for paying sooner than net 30. Rather than pocketing the money a conscientious builder (like Adam) will reflect the savings back to the homeowner.That Rocks!

It works! I have heard Elmer's drops everything to pour for Adam, even something as small as the windmill pad, and then he gets calls from suppliers saying - Hey, we offer you net 30, why do you pay so early!!! 

By basing the loan amount on appraised value rather than acquisition cost there is money for cost overruns. Lets say the homeowner wants to upgrade countertops -- the money will be there. Any funds not used will be modified in a "refi" type transaction following project completion and occupancy permit to reflect what was actually used in the project. Also - homeowner's do not have to prequal for an end loan. I am working with a gentleman now who had some issues with his job throughout construction, had some consumer lates, credit scores dropped, and is now having a hard time qualifying for the banks "end loan". With my product that would not be an issue.

Also, builder's are not stuck with a home because the homeowner didn't have enough money to come to the table after overruns that they lost track of -- nearly everyone wants to do bigger and better when building a home and they never want to work within "budget".. 

Benefits to the consumer of my CP Loan (in additon to the aforementioned):

One closing - saves time and money

Interest rate can be locked so if rates go up, they are locked at a lower rate. If rates drop (unlikely these days) they can take advantage of the rate drop.

Realtors are paid at close.

Builder does not need to disclose financials, have proof of assets, have reserves, etc --  

Homeowner can keep their money in their investment product making 10%+ and pay I/O on the draws -- they make money while they are building and normally come to the table with little if no money. 

If builder owns the land, the builder can be paid for that at close. They walk away from the table with money before they even break ground. Now that is different!

I hope this answers some of your questions -- stay tuned for more in a future blog! Can I offer a 1/8 point discount? You betcha! Just mention you read it on Active Rain!!!  

Shameless plug !! I offer loans outside of Michigan!!! and I will take great care of your project!!! I'll check with the boss - we have just transitioned and I believe we can offer products in 42 states! I have been waiting to announce that! Thanks JaneAnne for asking!!!

10:49pm • #76
JUN
13
2007
197,640 Points 56 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
Mary, will this work on Jumbo Loans?  I have a builder that is interested in knowing about EEM's for Jumbo's.  If so I will forward your comment to him.
10:45am • #77
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Mary, that is a great program you've got going there!  Can you share who the investor is that partners with you so we can connect with them in our state?  Or do you cover PA in the 42 states?
11:33am • #78
2 Featured Posts
Thanks Stephanie - yes, Energy Efficient Mortgages (EEM's) are available on Jumbos. Basically the EEM part stretches the borrower's DTI to allow them to qualify for higher loan amounts. The CP Loans I offer can be done on Jumbos. I would love to speak with your builder!

Hi Jeff - Our company just made this switch and I'm checking now to see which states I can cover. I should have an answer by the end of the day! Thanks for asking! If I can't take care of you I will certainly get you hooked up with someone who can!

12:18pm • #79
JUN
14
2007
315,559 Points 64 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Mary~ 

You have given us an entire post on Green Financing...This conversation is veritably  "blooming" with good INFO!

8:04am • #81
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I would like to know more about landscaping that is efficient.  Proper drainage without having to utilize sprinklers, etc.  Should that be covered in a different post?  :) 

Mary, I still would like to know if you cover Texas.  I forwarded your comment to the builder.

11:23am • #82
2 Featured Posts

Stephanie - sorry for the delay, I have been confirming information. I thought it was 42 states, it is only 15. Pennsylvania and Texas are both a go - Texas I can only do first mortgages, not seconds yet. Yippie!

JaneAnne - isn't that funny! I get on a roll and can't shut up!!! I'm glad you found the information useful.

Stephanie - who is the ecologist who just joined all-stars? His name escapes me right now but he would have good information on efficient landscaping. I also will be posting on a meeting I had yesterday with the company that supplied the Live Roofs for Metro Hospital in Grand Rapids.

Make it a great day!

2:30pm • #83
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Mary~ 

I know the Ecologist. I know the Ecologist!!!

Kevin Caldwell (lucille13) - Marshall, NC - Score: 1689

Ecological Inventory, Conservation Planning, Land Stewardship & Habitat Management, Wetland Delineation / Permitting and T&E Assessments, Ecological Community Design. Often Referred to REALTOR clients.

He's my 6'7" buddy and fellow bird lover.  I just interviewed him for my monthly column "Green Roots" in the New Life Journal...the subject...LANDSCAPES...

Let's give me a few emails and see if we can get him in from the woods!

7:12pm • #84
2 Featured Posts

Thanks JaneAnne - I knew you would jump in!!! I had to get out of the office quickly and couldn't pull his name out of my hat!!! Thanks for checking back!!!

I will certainly send you an email to forward on! He has so much to share he needs to be a part of this!!!

Thanks for keeping up with us!!! To your success!

M

10:03pm • #85
JUN
15
2007
315,559 Points 64 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Everyone~ 

Mary has invited a new member to the ECO Group... ERIC..welcome..

Eric just pointed us in the direction of the
Not So Big House...and this quote that may be another jumping off point for our JUNE CONVERSATION

"The qualities we long for have everything to do with taking time, building for the long term, crafting and paying attention to who we are, what we care about, and how we affect our world. The Not So Big House celebrates the beauty of daily life. With minimum means, it makes the act of living an art. It restores the soul to the structure."

--from The Not So Big House by Sarah Susanka

7:37am • #86

Nice article Jeff.  As Asheville NC has a such a greenbuilding culture exploding, its nice to read about it in Michigan and elsewhere too and it is truly fundamental to eco-realtors, their clients, and energy consumption which you should all know by now is the THE SINGLE disfiguring, earth-consuming action humans are now engaged in.  #1.  Thus, the more we change, reduce and curb that, the less we will scar this planet. 

On a local level and for your areas, I'd suggest sniffing out your local ecologists & biologists and put them on your buyers.  Its great to build a green-home but since we have to excavate, build drives, etc, we're often damaging our land in ways we don't know.  Get some good biologists out there, even for a day or two and you then open the toolchest on how to tweak a design to avoid / minimize impacts, ensure you're not smashing the only rare plants or oldest, high quality areas on your site, and depending on the site and your interest...save the high quality landscape quality species you won't find in most nurseries. 

janeAnne, Mary & Stephanie - I can't speak to native plantings in Michigan, so Mary - you should contact your state Natural Heritage Program for suggested native plants for your region (varies wildly even within your state), and / or a botanist who can look at sites there before the excavation begins.  But as for native plantings - its complex and depends on your soil types, annual rainfall, what region you're in, whats happend to your site, etc...email me if you want to discuss more. You can also google native plants and maintenance for your area. 

Kevin Caldwell
7:46am • #87
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I want to hear more about "new life journal", JaneAnne.  Sounds intriguing.  
10:33am • #88
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Thanks for the kudos, Kevin.  Great to hear that Asheville has an exploding green building culture.

Your point about including biologists and ecologists is well taken.  I tried compiling a contact list over a year ago, by researching local schools and extensions.  I mailed some pieces out early but the response was zero so I went to online marketing instead.  Things have changed a lot in the last 18 months, though...

How about this idea:  I did some early research into starting a green building company this past winter and spring, but the startup financing (among other challenges) has put me off.  I was hoping to get the first green home up in our area, but it turns out that Tom Reilly had other ideas...I'm not jealous, really!  Anyway, my thoughts have turned from going out a trying to build them (which my skill set does not support) to creating an advocacy and support firm for mainstream builders to tap into for advice and promotion when (not if) they embrace more "green" practices.  My marketing and people skills background seems to support this business model, and it would be a decent springboard for my RE practice.

I'd have to formalize my green expertise somehow and do the legwork to form an INC or LLC, but the startup costs would seem to be mostly intellectual in nature.  Last thought - I could then truly capitalize on my relationship with other sustainable pros in diff. parts of the world (that'd be you, FYI).

Thoughts on my idea? 

 

 

 

10:47am • #89
JUN
18
2007
315,559 Points 64 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Jeff~
Kevin is out in the woods. I'm sure he'll get back with you on this...

But, in the meantime,  I am really attracted to the idea of a consultant network!

11:47pm • #90
JUN
19
2007
2 Featured Posts

Funny JaneAnne, but I know it's true, and there is not much internet access in the woods! I think our "got wood" friend Buzz has also been hanging out in the woods these days -- that, and getting final supplies for the showcase home ready! Isn't it funny sometimes how life just happens?

Thanks to you, one of the first things I wanted to do today when I returned to "civilization" was check in with my ECO All-Stars to see what I've missed! Thanks for starting such a cutting edge group! 

1:23am • #91
Hit Router

Thanks for sharing on this product and home building system.  I'll do some checking to see where it is deployed here in the Pacific Northwest.

 John Slocum

2:41pm • #92
255,770 Points 7 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
Thanks, Alexander for the kudos.  Try checking at rewardwalls.com first - maybe there will be a distributor near you!
3:56pm • #93
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A "consultant network", eh JaneAnne? Interesting thought.  I was just commenting to Stephanie this morning that we need to fine-tune the marketing to get the word out better.  Perhaps a network of advocates (who happen to include real estate agents) who promote each other in their respective states/regions, with a common website to contribute to and send interested parties.  That way we add each others knowledge together, learn and market too. Hmm.
3:59pm • #94
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I vote Heck ya to that one!  Integrate a blog into it ans see if we can't people from all corners of the GREEN industry to be a part of it.  Sounds like an idea for our July conversation....
4:04pm • #95
2 Featured Posts
Good ideas on the consultant network! I like it. I am also all for developing this idea throughout July!
6:08pm • #96
JUN
20
2007
315,559 Points 64 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
Let's get some input from the rest of our Group... I'm going to invite a few other folks to join this conversation...how about-YOU?
5:38am • #97
JUN
21
2007
255,770 Points 7 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
I don't want us to lose sight of this network idea - July's almost here!
11:04am • #98
3 Featured Posts
I like the network idea too. Count me in in whatever form it takes.
12:06pm • #99
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OK! I get to be comment 100!

The ECO-All-Star CHALLENGE FOR JUNE is to keep this conversation going and of interest to our group and to climb to 200 comments that are worth reading. 

How are we doing? I am looking at the comments so far. it feels like a superb, month-long Jam Session with some folks who inspire, educate and intrigue others.  How about the other 215 members of the ECO-All-Stars chiming in on the "chorus' ??

 

5:00pm • #100
114,008 Points 7 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I am loving this Green Movement! I realize many of us feel it something that has been around for years...I am here to tell you that there are so many people  just grasping the basics of environmentalism. Gone are the days of being the minority- it is a trend that is gaining momentum daily. This is actually the first time I have credited the media IN A LONG TIME- thanks for the publicity TV land and way to go with keeping this converstaion alive !!

Mary, janeAnne- consultants? Fanastic idea and perfect venue for you two.

 

 

 

5:30pm • #101
2 Featured Posts

Real Estate professionals are in a great position to promote green building and/or retro-fitting.  Keep up the mission.

We've been alternative fanatics at our house for along time.  I think this is just good stewardship.  When DH was building houses, he was always advising the people how to orient their house for passive (free) solar benefits -- warm in winter and cool in summer. 

American's need something to "live" for; practical, applicable environmental missions instead of environmental self-worship!

6:25pm • #102
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JudyAnn!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This statement knocked my socks off... "American's need something to "live" for; practical, applicable environmental missions instead of environmental self-worship!"

I realize that I will now have to sit outside and watch the sun set over the mountains and ponder these words. To me, they are a mixture of truth and lyricism...and representative of our "energy" here at the ECO-All-Stars!

 

 

7:02pm • #103
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Jeff, This is a good explanation of ICF and the photos and links make it really interesting reading. Thanks for the update on the building of the rancher in Lancaster, Pa.  Wonder if anyone in the Baltimore area is using ICF.

7:39pm • #104
JUN
24
2007
197,640 Points 56 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
Jeff, can you tell us some more about the Affordability Analysis?  That sounds interesting.
5:30pm • #105
JUN
25
2007
315,559 Points 64 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
I want to read more about the affordability analysis, too!
7:45am • #106
255,770 Points 7 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
Margaret - try calling Tom Reilly at 717-286-7165.  He'll know about that.
10:33am • #107
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I am going to get our resident ICF expert online to discuss the affordability analysis, FYI.
10:36am • #108
2 Featured Posts

Just back from the Energy Fair and Wow! It's been a great week and I could spend the next three months writing! Great things are coming! I talked with professionals from different parts of the industry this weekend and we will be developing some plans. I am anxious to see what input we can get on this blog. I can't wait for the affordability analysis discussion!

  

 

5:34pm • #109
JUN
26
2007

Margaret, I do work with a few ICF installers in the Baltimore market.  We are looking at some waterfront redevelopment projects (townhomes/condo's,) but the bulk of the work in that region is north and west of the city.  Feel free to touch base if you'd like more info.

With regard to the "Affordability Analysis," we took national average costs of 2 x 6 framing/poured-in-place foundation and compared it with full ICF construction costs.  ICF manufacturers will tell you ICF's cost 3-5% more than traditional construction, but I tell folks it's more like 5-10% and be happy when it comes in at 7%. 

The analysis takes this cost difference and shows how it affects down payment and monthly mortgage payment.  We then show a typical savings on homeowner's insurance and an average savings on monthly utilities.  From this, we can calculate a break-even point in terms of when the ICF benefits start paying the homeowner back.  The analysis assumes energy costs as constant rather than escalating.

Mary, I sent you a copy.  What are/were your thoughts?  Anyone else want a copy?  Email me at treilly@constructionsupplycenters.com.  If you get blocked (our server auto-blocks yahoo, hotmail domains, etc.,) call me at 717.354.1057 and I'll get your email address cleared internally.

Tom Reilly
2:13pm • #110
2 Featured Posts

Hi Tom! Your Affordability Analysis came in just as I was leaving for the Energy Fair Week and I didn't have time to review it well before I left. I just refreshed myself and I like what you have come up with. I think this is the key to educating homeowners that if they front load the costs the difference is NOT that great and their savings over the life of the home make it a very wise decision. I will pass on some further ideas over the next few weeks. Right now I'm trying to take in and assimilate everything I worked on this weekend!!!

Reward Wall Systems had their reps at the Michigan Energy Fair . Great bunch!

 

2:40pm • #111
315,559 Points 64 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
Hey Y'ALL..who volunteers to summarize this conversation ..??
4:27pm • #112
197,640 Points 56 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
JaneAnne, looks like you have loads of people jumping in. :)  I can do it if you still need someone.
4:40pm • #113
255,770 Points 7 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog
I will have to pass - I need to run and attend to my pregnant wife!  Today is the due date...
4:46pm • #114
2 Featured Posts

Jeff - how exciting! 

JaneAnne, I think it would be great to have a couple of different perspectives on the summary. If Stephanie will volunteer, I will also! 

6:26pm • #115
2 Featured Posts

Wow! What great minds and intelligent people we have participating in this Active Rain Group, the ECO All-Stars!! I am simply amazed by all the knowledge. I actually printed this out - may have done away with a tree (24 pages) but it was great to sit on my deck and read through it all. I will keep this in my notebook for reference material!

My summary?

The title of this blog says so much. The blog HAS developed into an active conversation and excellent exchange of ideas between various professionals in the Real Estate/Construction industry. It is focused on new technology in the industry and what can be done to make our lives healthier, resulting in a better world.

I find it truly demonstrates that as professionals we have the ability 1. to learn about new technology 2. disseminate information to consumers and other professionals 3. engage in stimulating conversation through this beast we call the "net"

As a community of individuals who care about our earth we have been able to share what is happening in our "neck of the woods", what is working and ideas to not only help it work in other parts of the country but how to educate consumers and show the benefits. Very important!

Through this conversatioin we have identified several important issues/concerns and benefits - we have merged our thoughts. We have discussed various financial aspects - insurance, up front costs, longevity, mortgages, affordability... We have discussed health benefits. We have discussed the technology and physics behind the ICF's. Holy Toledo! What a well rounded conversation!!! It has been filled with educational points and has developed into a "mini" seminar with tiny bits of information, a little at a time, which has made it easier to digest!

I love that there has been no malace or competition -- just an open, sharing of ideas -- a brainstorming -- a "mastermind" group. Very Successful! especially considering most of us have never met. This is truly what the Active Rain Community is all about!

A GREAT READ!! 

To your Success!!! 

 

8:02pm • #116
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Jeff and janeAnne: In lieu of wasting a tree to print all this information, I have bookmarked it for future re-reading. In the meantime, I marvel at the efficiency of human ingenuity.
11:04pm • #117
JUN
27
2007
Jeff (and Mary) - now that I've gotten to see the Hybrid Home first hand, it certainly gives all of this ICF talk a whole new perspective.   The sound quality was amazing.  And the fact of the low variance in temperature makes it worth its weight in gold!  I'm ready to build!!!
7:00am • #118
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Did I mention I have this great designer and builder I can hook you up with !!! HA.....
7:57am • #119
1 Featured Post

Weight in GOLD - it is gold when you consider the price of utilities (heat and air alone). Jeff I have also printed all the wonderful idears here to share with all my customers at closing - Is the baby here yet?

Thanks so much for sharing all your ingeniuity and the "green" house with us.

10:07am • #120
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I'm about to do a summary, but I have another question. 

Using ICF's, we now know it is hollow in the center, but how does the weight compare?  The reason I ask is how much does the slab need to be beefed up in engineering?  How many additional piers traditionally needed vs. using ICF's.

7:19pm • #121
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Thanks all for keeping this conversation going strong!  Sorry I can't be more involved but I've got this baby thing to take care of...:)  Thanks for all the emails, comments of support!  See my latest blog post for some detail as to where we are right now...
7:42pm • #122

Wow What a large amount of great information!

I have read and reread and I think I have it:

the cost effective, enviromentally friendly and health conscience way is "Green House"

With discussions like this, the Green Way of Life will be the only way of life soon. Thanks for sharing 

 

8:04pm • #123
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Ok, here is my summary.

In the world of GREEN building, there are now more options for the consumer.  The post started by talking about ICF's (Insulated Concrete Form's a.k.a. Big Boy Lego's) and how they are great for energy efficiency and contain less toxins than white pine.  It appears that this product is being used in many places in the nation. 

As the conversation grew we opened it up to other GREEN products and programs such as LEED or other state GREEN programs for building.  On top of that, it was discovered that Insurance Companies are stating to give discounts on these homes for multiple reasons.  One excellent example was that ICF's have been tested up to 200 mph winds. Sounds like a MUCH needed product along the Gulf Coast.

Consumers are also finding out about Energy Efficient Mortgage's.  It is a way for a buyer to qualify for more home when it takes into consideration the reduced utility costs.

Kevin chimed in and talked a little about the importance of native landscaping.  It is important to have a local specialist for this area.  Hopefully more will join us!  Kevin, welcome!

In the middle of all of this we discussed the importance of talking to consumers and making them aware of the options available.  There does seem to be growing interest from consumers already.

There are still some topics out there in the field so feel free to chime in. 

Oh, the topic of the "consultant network" as maybe being our July conversation...is that still in play?  :)  I think it's a great idea!  I agree with Mary how this month we brainstormed together.  We have come together as a group of people with the same cause and want the same outcome and are willing to learn from each other.  We have a special group here and I think we should maximize that.

Now, I believe there are about 80 more comments needed here.  :)

8:13pm • #124
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Stephanie, GREAT summary. I knew that more than one summary would help with this awesome conversation we have had. There are so many topics out there, as I witnessed at the Michigan Energy Fair this past weekend.

 You say,  We have a special group here and I think we should maximize that. I agree with you. I DO like the idea of the "consultant network" and would like to develop that idea more for July. Just think what a great array of ideas we will uncover!

Sounds like Jeff is in the middle of loving his wife and increasing his family size! (Interestly enough, Adams wife Heidi is a labor and delivery nurse!) That is great! In lieu of his absense, I have asked Eric and Adam to try and answer your "weight" question. I do know that they have to brace the ICF's while curing, I believe the process is 14 days....but I want the experts to chime in because I want to learn more and not give misinformation.

 Eric, Adam??? I will also zip a quick email to Jake from R-value to see if he will join our group! Only 79 more to go and a short time to do it in!

9:22pm • #125
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ok, 78 to go.  Thanks for getting them over here to keep it moving.  R-Value would be a GREAT addition..
9:28pm • #126
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Yes, I just emailed Jake -- lets see if he is an early morning riser or a late night person like myself! Buzz from Standale should also be checking in tomorrow!!! Let's see how well he has learned the keyboard....
9:31pm • #127
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How about this?  Anyone still following this, why don't you tell us about what is going on in your state regarding GREEN Building.  We know now that ICF's are being used in several states.  What other products are being used that we may not know about? 

Houston is still behind times a little in the GREEN world so I don't have a lot to add on this note. 

9:45pm • #128
A simple answer Stephanie's question. The footings are a little bigger than a conventional poured wall footing. The slab doesn't need to be any different than with a poured wall system. The ICF wall have more re-bar in them horizontally and vertical than with a typical poured wall. If you want a more technical answer I would ask Adam or Jake because they are the leading experts in ICF construction here in west Michigan.
9:47pm • #129
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Hi Eric, I was thinking more along the lines number of piers below the slab.  What is the weight difference between ICF's and a typical Wood Frame.
9:51pm • #130

Mary and gang: I am a late nighter and an early riser.... I just don't blog in the morning!

Thanks for the invite, how do I join? How do I submit photos? I will do my best to keep up on the posts. I'm not entirely sure how this works, as there seems to be conversation going on between members that wasn't posted here?

Either way, it sounds like things are the same all over the country with attempting to educate folks about the benefits of building with ICF's. It is an uphill battle right now, but with awesome guys like Adam Bearup we are making headway!

As far as piers go, it is important to note that in each part of the country there are unique considerations due to the weather and soil conditions. Here in the north everything is put on footings which are buried in the ground below the frost line, and 99% of homes have basements. (We now call them lower levels because with ICF construction they are as comfortable as the main level!) That said, the footings are upsized on a full ICF home to distribute the increased weight over a larger area. When ICF's are used for the lower level only, the footing sizes remain the same.

Jake Vierzen
10:00pm • #131

Stephanie-

We don't have piers below a slab here, so it is hard for me to answer that question without knowing how homes are built in Texas.

As far as weight goes; per running foot of wall, a typical ICF weighs just over 700lbs. A stud wall might be around 15-20lbs.

Jake Vierzen
10:06pm • #132
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Hi Jake!  We have a very high percentage of clay in our soil in Texas and with the extreme wet times and then extreme dry times they put a couple of expansion joints in the home and will often times place engineering piers under the slab to help prevent settling.  However, that is an OVERWHELMING weight difference so I will use my imagination.  :)  I would have to guess several extras would be needed.

So, how does the weight compare to re-inforced concrete?  You can tell foundation is a big issue here.  :)

I had the percentage of clay in there but then I second guessed myself and changed it to "high percentage"

10:13pm • #133
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Wow! Thanks TEAM Hybrid for answering my plea!

Jake - I'll call tomorrow and hook you up on Active Rain. To join you just follow the invite I sent. I'll show you how to get set up and how to get your pix posted. Thanks for the technical information. This current conversation is now 134 comments deep - it started with a conversation about ICF's and has led to many great ideas. The goal is 200 comments by the end of June and the 200th comment gets a prize!!! Wow! Scroll up to see what has been happening in the conversation. Stephanie and I have also both summarized our views of what has taken place. 

 We hope to further expand conversations in July and your input would be very valuable. 

Eric - Thanks for the simple explanation. I'm curious to see how this question about settling and piers compares to the Michigan foundations.

See what I love about TEAM Hybrid! These are the type of professionals (in addition to all who have been actively engaged in this conversation) who we want in our "consultant network" conversation. Talk about a mastermind group! 

10:50pm • #134
Great answer Jake. I knew you could explain it better than me.
11:27pm • #135
JUN
28
2007
315,559 Points 64 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

I am very curious about solar and renewable energy as it plays into this conversation.

I found this link to some really neat calculations we can use to compute weather data...but I am wondering who does the REALTOR contact when his/her client is looking to site a home so that it will take advantage of solar energy?

 

 

 

12:04am • #136
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I used to be a traditional stick builder in Utah while I was a real estate investor. Moved to Austin, and became a REALTOR, but missed the building so I started a new company with a partner (who's from Wisconsin) where we focus on building green.

We have been very surprised by the "closed mindedness" of contractors in this area to new ways to do things. And I'm not just talking about building green, just other ways to effectively do something. 

We already are actually a distributor for a wall panel system that uses the EPS mentioned above but reinforced by 20 gauge steel. We too have to run a cost analysis because as the builders around here say, "A customer would rather have $5K in nicer appliances than better insulation or soundproofing." But back to doing things different, you'd be shocked to see how they build the foundation walls for daylight basements out here in the hill country! I can't describe it, it is so horrific! And because of the extra labor & materials a quote for a flat poured slab went from $25,000 to $75,000 just by adding a ten foot high foundation wall on the face and side walls.

The panels we use are structural, but more compared to a framed wall, so they aren't meant for subsurface support. After 5 quotes by different contractors, I finally just contacted an ICF guy. The quote came in much more reasonable, although still higher than what I was hoping.

(By the way, Tom, I can't get a hold of this guy for anything and can't seem to find another ICF guy around here. So if you have a referral for the Austin area, then that'd be VERY appreciated.)

Anyway, when I mentioned to a couple of other builders that I plan on just using ICFs for daylight basement scenarios they think I'm crazy. They think that it'd be MUCH harder to deal with since they're not used to it.  I constantly try to find new & different yet better, however your point about the end dollar is DEFINITELY a reality in this market.

As I posted on another blog, I am a HUGE advocate for growing the green industry as fast as possible, but I feel that COST will continue to prohibit a mainstream use. If there was a demand like there has been for Diesel, then maybe the Gov't could get involved to offset losses of companies, I dunno, I don't have the answers, just the questions. I like the saying, "It's a cinch by an inch, it's hard by a yard." This doesn't mean it's easier to grow slowly, instead of taking leaping bounds forward. Quite the opposite. It means it's easier to grow faster by taking smaller profits up front, compared to charging premium. 

Just look at Solar Panels. They've been around for how long? How much market share do they own? 3% or less?  

Anyway, I'd like to see the price go down on Concrete, ICF's, wall panel systems, recycled flooring etc.,but it could just be a dream!

12:32am • #137
2 Featured Posts

They think that it'd be MUCH harder to deal with since they're not used to it. 

Robert, you hit the nail on the head. That, and not being able to get info from a rep. I will have Rich from Build Block or Jake from R-Value get with you  to see who they can connect to you in your neck of the woods. Jake just chimed in above and is going to be come an active member of the community. Rich's invite is also on the way.

In the meantime, hold a hard line. Keep advocating. I think you will be surprised with what you find when you get with a reputable ICF rep. I'm sure Tom will also get you with one. 

They've been around for how long? How much market share do they own? 3% or less?  

As we advocate the products for the BENEFITS the market share will gain. I don't believe the cost is that much of a difference especially using a builder who "gets it" and prices accordingly. As Adam says, as the builders are educated to the process and understand the product and installation -- FROM A GREAT REP -- they will see the light (and basque in all that solar).

Stay Green -- it's not easy!

 

12:58am • #138
2 Featured Posts
JaneAnne - great place for Eric Hughes to step in. I believe he has some interesting sites he can point you towards. He began his site plan on the Herkelrath Project with google earth. I'll shout at him to check in soon.
1:01am • #139
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This Eco Group is really capable of becoming a point of great reference for consumers. The topics have become very specific with excellent tips alnd links. We as a group "together" can truly become the consulting network we are talking about. I

My question-  Is there a way to add a public Q&A to this specific group ??
I have an email from someone off of my Cargo Container post. She would be a great round table discussion for us. She is in need of OUR help.    What do you think ?

7:03am • #140

Robert, I forwarded your AR contact info to Reward corporate.  Expect a call in the near future.  Stephanie, I have to agree with the earlier posts concering piers.  Here in the northeast, most construction incorporates full "living space" below grade.  ICF jobs that don't have lower levels typically use slab-on-grade and frost-walls on a standard footer.

Soil classification does have a significant impact on rebar schedule for below-grade walls.  Reward's website has many engineering tables (based on IRC or ACI standards) that give design parameters.  Your best bet is a local engineer or architect familiar with ICF design, local conditions and local codes.

In terms of cost, I think ICF's aren't that far out of line with typical construction costs.  I have installers who actually compete with (and beat) 2 x 6 framing costs.  It's these guys who hold the cards, and as they climb the learning curve, they improve their efficiencies and lower their labor costs. 

That being said, when a product provides value, both perceived and inherent, isn't it usually worth more?  

8:55am • #141
Sorry.  I forgot to sign that last post.
Tom Reilly
8:56am • #142
JaneAnne your first step should be to find a residential designer or architect with experience in sustainable design and passive solar to help with placing the home properly. There are a lot of different thing to take into consideration and these ideas change depending on which part of the country you are in.
9:40am • #143
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Baby came early this morning - 2:35am!  See my post here:

http://activerain.com/blogsview/133948/A-New-baby

Thanks for all the well wishes!  Please try to post any baby comments at this post so my wife can read them easily.

 Jeff

10:03am • #144
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Robert, you have a great point.  I don't think many builders are willing to take the dive and go against the grain. I wish more builders would go green and take the chance as you and others have.  Thanks for taking initiative.

JaneAnne, findsolar.com has contractors for areas that handle Active Solar and a good designer/eco-architect would be a good one to contact for passive solar.  GBC or a local sustainable builder would be a good place to start. 

3:31pm • #145
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Michele,  Great idea!

Tom, We don't have living space below grade, wish we did.  I think it's a great idea.  Your comment on weight gave me a good idea of what would be needed.  That is amazing about the price comparison.  I guess I will have to find someone here that uses ICF's.

Jeff- CONGRATULATIONS!

3:36pm • #146
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Jeff,  Wow, so much information now available from your post and all the comments. Stephanies, http://findsolar.com/ was a great site too.
7:12pm • #147
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OK, 53 more comments to go.  Hmm...

I don't think we have talked about flooring yet.  Does anyone have input on GREEN flooring?

9:15pm • #148
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Michele~

I totally am excited about your idea (see about 10 commments back y'all)..and lt us know what OU think...

Steph~ I don't think we have talked about flooring...and I LOVE that idea

 

so here's what I want to know...could y'all tell me the fetues and benefits of

1) radiant floor heat..

2) rescued heart-of-pine floors,

3) non toxic recyclable carpet,

4)bamboo, and marmoleum...

great conversation, BTW! YAY-Yeah!

 

 

10:09pm • #149
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 few more topics to carry us to the dark chocolate....

Tell us what you know about

  • EnergyStar Program
  • EPA Green Power Partnership
  • Million Solar Roof Initiative
  • South-facing orientation
  • 10:12pm • #150
    JaneAnne. I used all but rescued hart of pine floor on our show home for the 2007 Michigan energy Fair. We worked with Shaw Carpet they have and outstanding recycle policy.  On back of there carpet is a 1-800-number to call and they will come and pick-up the carpet for free and recycle it. We used the shaw carpet in the Guest rooms. I love bamboo flooring and also like to use palm and coconut which are also a fast growth product. Bamboo is lighter in color like clear maples and can be a little darker like a stained oak Palm and coconut are darker like cherry and mahogany. They are all very strong and durable. We used bamboo thru out the show home. Marmoleum is a natural product made from linseed oil, wood flour, rosin, jute and limestone. It is available in a comprehensive range of design elements. Very durable product we used it in the wet bar area. Another product we use was cork floors they were used in our bathrooms and kitchen. Cork is great because the tree is never cut down the cork is the bark of the tree and is sheded yearly. Cork comes is a varity of color. We also stained the concrete floors which is very attractive and works great with radiant floor heat. We used radiant floor heat thru-out the home and used it to heat the garage floor, front porch and driveway also. We had solar hot water panel on the home to pre-heat the water for our radiant floor system.
    10:32pm • #151
    JUN
    29
    2007
    315,559 Points 64 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

    Eric & All... 

    Verrrry interesting analysis an array of options for floor covering. Besides the positive results from recycling, which floor is the least toxic, I am wondering...or which is NON-toxic? Any information on that?

    IOW...I am definitely concerned here about which (or if all) are safe/safest for  a baby...

     

    This little guy needs to be where he is NOT ingesting toxic chemicals....Here's to safe floor coverings for ECO-All-Star's JEff's new baby!!! This one's for your angel, Jeff...

    xoxoxoxo SAFE FOR BABIESxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo

    7:55am • #152
    All of them can be non toxic it all has to due how you finish or coat the products. Look for Non-toxic and low or no-voc products.
    8:35am • #153