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I am seeing “DDoouubbllee” again!

Unless you are a tap dancer, or you are tapping maple trees in the Spring, or you are knocking on someone’s door----double taps are typically not a good thing----at least when it comes to electricity. The only thing worse I guess would be more than two----multiple taps.

Today I just want to talk about double tapped circuit breakers. Most circuit breakers are only designed and UL listed for one wire per connection. For example, take the average screw-type termination on a circuit breaker. It is not that hard to understand that when the screw is turned down over one wire you end up with a very positive connection. When you install one wire on each side----one of the wires will not end up being quite as tight as the other side and arcing is possible. As everyone remembers, arcing---unless you are welding---is usually bad juju with regards to electricity.

The other day I came across a panel with several double taps on circuit breakers that made this issue even clearer----DIFFERENT KINDS of wires on each side-----solid conductor on one side and stranded conductor on the other side. It should be clear, even to a novice, that there is no way that there will ever be equal pressure on these two different types of wires. The risk of arcing is very high----all dependent on what kinds of loads are placed on the circuits.

double tapped breakers

Add to this issue, that the panel is an old Zinsco panel and we have ourselves in need of a good electrician----hopefully a better one than the one that did this installation.

Charles Buell

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Posted by Charles Buell, Seattle, WA, Home Inspector on 02/11/2009 02:49 PM

Comments (39)

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seattle wa home inspector, everett wa home inspector, king county wa home inspectors, double taps, electrical issues

Originally posted at: Seattle Home Inspector's Blog: I am seeing “DDoouubbllee” again!

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39 Comments on I am seeing “DDoouubbllee” again!

FEB

Charles,

Very bad juju!!!!.... Very good inspector to FIND it and REPORT it!!!!

Kathy Opatka Re/Max OCEAN CIY, MARYLAND

Charles, we live in an area of older homes (1920's is pretty common), and I have very few inspections where we DON'T find a double tap or more.

It's always noted on the inspection report, and depending on the inspector, some are quick to downplay the danger. But I always recommend that my buyer clients make the repair (or request the sellers do it or credit it). It's inexpensive and well worth the peace of mind.

Like Alan, I also live in an area where older homes are relatively common. I hope you know Charles, that you are my "Bible" of sorts when it comes to Home Inspections.

Kathy, thanks.

Alan, it is all realtive to how much load is placed on it. They can purr along fine for years and they can light up like the 4th of July with enough hair dryers going.

Jason, thanks---Steve says I am as old as Methuselah:)

Charles, that is one of the most overlooked aspects of an inspection. We see alot of those and they are easy to forget about, but one of the most important.

That is a great observation......one more reason to always get a professional inspection!

Charles, double taps are certainly one of the things that home inpsectors need to look for. It is amazing what home owners and some licensed electricians will do. So much to be said for "Buyer Beware"...

Ian, I sure don't see the solid and stranded double tapped very often.

Brian, thanks for the comment

Michael, this was a commercial job----so you know that they should have known better.

Charlie,

There you go, being critical again. You are just no fun at all.

Steve, you are into tap dancing aren't you?

Charlie - you are assuming, of course, my good man, that an electrician did those connections! You know what happens when we assume...!

Jay, not me, not me:)

Here in Florida, with many older homes, it's not at all unusual to have double taps turn up in the inspection. As it is illegal, when representing a buyer, we always ask for the seller to remedy the situation.

Sharon, you touch on a couple of things I would like to comment on. These double taps, at least in the short term, are not difficult to deal with. If it means that the panel is maxed out---then it becomes another matter and the panel and or service may have to be upgraded. In many instances the licensed electrician will pigtail the wires together and run one wire to the breaker. The other thing is that some panel manufacturers make breakers that allow two wires. Many SQ D Breakers are designed this way.

This blog is a little too complex for me. I never got past the water heater problems. Good one, though!! : )

Barbara---you and your water heaters---are you always in hot water or something?

FEB

Like your Rose Connect to the Aha group! :-) And man oh man i'm so glad there are inspectors..........

Charles, sometimes it feels like Pa is the originator of the double tap. I run into this at least once a week. What I haven't run into very much is a stranded and the solid double tapped. Makes one wonder if the people doing these connections never heard of a pancake breaker, or better yet ... an electrician. Seems to me that these options would be less costly the the fire damage these connection can eventually cause.

Hi Liz---wish we could get more participation at our little group:)

Suesan, the pancakes are a good option sometimes---but not for this poor old Zinsco:)

FEB

Charles, I've taken to calling them the "obligatory" double tap. It seems like just about every panel has at least one.

The FPE in my last blog post had 3.

Trying to convince people here that it is a problem can make you bang your head on a wall because it feels better and accomplishes more.

Paul, I have to agree with you there.

FEB

Charlie, You brought up exactly the aspect I often point out with doubles, you can not exert equal pressure on both wires. I have often found where 12 and 14 wire are doubled on a 15 amp breaker. A nice mix for a spectacular fireworks display.

All it takes is the right combination of hair dryers, space heaters or toasters:)

Well the red wire is more beautiful and colorful, so leave that one and get rid of the white one. Put it down with those two black ones. Just like a piano keyboard, two blacks should always be separate by a white. Problem solved -- LOL.

Russel, I am afraid screwing around with recommendations concerning electrical issues is not where I choose to go----never know who might take you seriously.

Charlie,

Problem is, because electrical is so specialized, many inspectors either do not really get all of it or ignore critical issues. You know that, teaching it at the tech college.

I think this job was done by Uncle Harry who's just as good as an electrician and doesn't cost nearly as much. He did a nice job, didn't he?

FEB

Steven----probably true.

Jim, well clearly someone didn't really understand the possible ramifications.

Steven, I agree! Usually those who joke around, I'm sure there's one in every class, do so to hide their ignorance. One thing I never joke about is electrical issues. Plumbing maybe, screwing around with electrical can kill you or some else.

LOL!

Double taps not a good thing? I should say not - in the military when we taught soldiers how to perform a proper ambush, we'd instruct them that, after the initial onslaught, they were to move across the kill zone to set up a 360 around the site to secure it and prepare for any counter attack. As they cross the kill zone, they're taught that they should pause only long enough to double tap anyone in the kill zone - in other words, put two rounds in their head - just to make sure that person wasn't faking it and would roll over and shoot someone in the back as the perimeter was being set up. Kind of gruesome, huh?

Mention double-tap to a soldier or ex-soldier and that's the first thing that pops into his or her mind; so, if you use that term and the client gives you a momentarily puzzled look until you explain exactly what it is you're talking about, now you know why the client looks puzzled.

It's funny, the way we use language sometimes.

ONE TEAM - ONE FIGHT!!!

Mike

James, I might poke fun at the way something is wired---but I am very careful about what I say that might be taken as a "recommendation."

Mike, that is over the top----I am definitely showing my lack of military experience. You sure are right about the English language and its uses.

FEB

Charles

In the above example I would say that those 'two' wires under the same lug was an unsafe condition.

If it were 'two' wires of the same size I know of nothing that makes them unsafe. It only violates the manf. specs. Hence a code violation. Remember that it may have been inspected and approved at an earlier time. So it would not be a defect if approved (wires of the same size).

When I teach electric to HI's I tell them to quote me as saying that only one wire is allowed. This takes 'code' out of the equation for them.

Mike---most likely "overlooked"----I couldn't imagine it ever being "approved":)

Charles

Not overlooked just was 'allowed' for many years. Remember the AHJ can approve that installation. Also if nothing was codified when the home was built the AHJ effectively was the 'code'.

Again that is why I say be careful calling it a defect rather make it a recommendation. With me?

http://activerain.com/blogsview/947738/When-is-a-defect-not-a-defect

Mike I understand the distinction---I just don't care about the code. If it is an installation that is not allowed by the manufacturer---it is a defect. The codes are a "minimum" standard and manufactuer's instructions supercede code.

How do we know when the manf. started requiring it?

All I want is for ALL of us to think how we write things. Not saying not to call it out.

Well, one would have to look up the specs on any particular breaker. For me, my buyers are hiring me for my opinion and is an area I am perfectly willing to be proved wrong about. Unless it is a breaker that is clearly identified as allowing multiple wires at the terminals, I will ere on the side of caution that multiple terminations are most likely not allowed. Since correction of these sorts of things is left to be done by the electrical contractor when they "are at the home for other repairs" I can not imagine it "killing any deals"----unless of course there are signs of overheating that would require more immediate attention. As far as "languaging" what I am reporting on goes, I am very careful to say exactly what my opinion is and who should make what corrections----when and why.

MAR

Charles,

Do you really think that this work was done by an electrician? If I had an extra dollar for everytime I saw this, I could take a long vacation, or buy a new car, or a boat.

Thanks for the post.

Kevin

Kevin I see so many things that I KNOW where done by licensed electrical contractors---and done wrong----that it is possible.

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