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Let's Join The Union!

It's funny how ones past experiences seem to rear their head in other aspects of your life. While a member of a labor group I have learned what good it does as well as the bad. I like that everyone was for the most part equal and no one member got special privileges over another. That same philosophy is also a bad thing becasuse a lazy co-worker gets the same benefits as the loyal hard working individual. Point is there are many benefits non-union labor enjoy today as a result of organized labor. I don't want to start a political firestorm blog about labor but I want to steal their idea to level the playing field in the real estate business. This is my plan:

1. Boycott all BPO work

Brokers performing BPO's are not only hurting values by performing these broad "pencil" appraisals but they are also hurting the appraisal business. Banks are using these BPOs to set values and this is wrong. Only a licensed appraiser should be doing this, plus the measly 50 bucks isn't worth the time or effort if you factor in operating costs. Sure there are agents making a living doing these but imagine if no one did them and forced the banks to pay $350-$500 per appraisal-what would that do to the economy?

2. Stop taking REO listings period.

What am I crazy? No, think about it no REO listings, what would that do to your local MLS inventory? That would help stabilize prices and forced the banks to play ball with the short sales. The REO market is getting almost as bad as the short sales. Banks take offers and sit on them trying to create a bidding war, while crapping on MLS rules that prohibit some of their actions. The banks are in heaven, they have starving agents who will jumped through hoops and walk on fire to get and "service" these listings. Stop the nonsense.

Why my plan will work:

When was the last time this country was really united and firing on all cylinders? History tells us that during the 1950's and 1960's this was a great country to live in and raise a family, still is. You had one income families, jobs that provided benefits and adequate pay that allowed familes to buy homes they could afford and save money. Coincidentally this same period in our history was the hey-day of organized labor. There were huge groups of labor organizing, bargaining and gaining a better standard of living for all. However our country has shifted from a manufacturing based economy to service based. The unions missed their opportunity to organize the service industry on a widespread basis and corporate America took advantage by successfully eroding all those gains. As a country we need to get back to the WE and US mentality if we ALL are to prosper. If not we are in store for the same ole same ole of the capitalistic system, the top 10% making all the loot while the rest of US feed their well oiled money machine. If we can get back to this mentality we will prevail.

Why my plan will not work:

We have been sold on the idea that me is good (myself included). I can own my own business build a future for my family and be successfully. The most successfully business people in history have never done it alone. They have dragged others along with them and helped others prosper. Why are in the housing mess today? GREED and that's it, period. Greed is the highest form of ME mentality and it will eventually destroy this great country. Our founding fathers did not envision an America where we step on our neighbors backs and check our scruples at the door on the way to the top. In business there are times you have to be tough and firm but not ruthless. As long as we have brokers snapping up every REO listing they CAN'T handle and agents willing to do BPOs at an 80% discount versus an appraisal, we as an industry will continue to struggle even in good times. I don't want to create an Agent Union, but if it worked in the middle of the last century maybe we can learn from it and adopt some of those principles.

Your thoughts, ideas and opions are always enjoyed.

Regards,

Noel Padilla

Posted by Noel Padilla, CDPE on 02/26/2009 02:32 PM

Comments (83)

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83 Comments on Let's Join The Union!

FEB

Well said Noel. I agree 100% with what you are saying.

it is unfortunate that our industry is its own worst enemy. The fact that we are legally precluded from working together to improve our industry through open dialog on important issues regarding pricing and competition, is killing us.

There is always someone willing to work longer hours and for less money, until they go out of broke but not before they do more damage to the industry.

We need legislated labor standards for the real estate industry. ie structured hours, fixed compensation, educational minimums, competancy testing, and employment benefits package. Perhaps organized labor is the only way to achieve this, as NAR and CREA certainly have done nothing for us so far.

we can't even talk about commission rates, this would allow us standardize the commission rate . . . hmm.

Boycott the BPO...interesting!

Noel,

Excellent comparison! I like the idea of NOT doing BPO's and side-stepping REO's. I feel like the banks are sitting back, with ALL the marbles, and not too interested in whether houses are sold! Their balance sheets now look GREAT with all the Stimulas money; there is NO NEED to loan that as mortgage money!

Kathy Opatka Re/Max OCEAN CITY, MARYLAND

Noel, I think this is very interesting. In many ways it could work, you know what the problem is, no one will stick to it or stick together, always someone complaining in the background. I do think we are at a point where enough is enough.

WOW, I was afraid I was going to get a ton of negative responses. i am really glad we have people here who remember how this country became the greatest in the world. It was about being the best together and truly enjoying seeing others prosper along with us.......keep the comments coming, I love the ideas. Maybe Obama's camp can pick it up and put some of the ideas into legislaure.

It's difficult to express views that might be (mis)construed. I have not written posts that even border talking about interfering with others' business practices. There is a lot of people that think real estate, and the industry in general is one big frat organization. It's easy to say things, unintentionally, that can be misconstrued as racketeering and a violation of the Sherman Anti-Trust act. Please be careful with your posts and comments people.

The NAR has a great Anti-Trust video and I suggest EVERYONE watch it and learn, and then SHUT UP!!

Here's something to read:

http://www.realtor.org/toolkits/brokerrisk17 (In part: "3. Boycotts. Boycotts occur when a group of businesses agree not to do business with a particular party. A typical group boycott allegation in the real estate brokerage business involves a claim that two or more brokerages have agreed to refuse to cooperate, or to cooperate on less favorable terms, with a third brokerage company. The intent is to eliminate that company as a competitor or to force it to abandon certain practices. Another form of boycott would occur if several companies collectively determined not to use a particular service provider, such as a certain newspaper.

Avoid problems by: Making decisions on whether to do business with other real estate companies or service providers based on your company's own judgments, goals, and experiences"

---------------------------------------------------------------

We might all be real estate agents (not all are Realtors), but that doesn't allow us to act in any way, shape, and/or form as a cartel. I do NOT agree with your views simply because I am a member of AR, NAR, a real estat agent, etc.

I believe that anyone can run their business (any business) as they want to, providing it is a legal enterprise. If a company/brokerage/agent wants to take an REO lisitng, let them.

I run a business. What I charge to my clients in NONE of your business (Peter Z. Nikic). It's the mentality of people in real estate who do NOT understand WHY commission structures can not be "standardized."

Should Burger King "standardize" their hamburger price with McDonalds?

We are NOT in this together . . . I run a business, and you run yours.

I can charge a RETAINER, fees to buyers, etc. I'm a licensed professional, and not a part of any pact mentality.

And the real estate agent/mortgage broker in Canada . . . oh PLEASE!! "Organize" your ideas up there . . .

What do you want NAR to do? They are a "MEMBERSHIP" organization, and don't run our business.

Do you people get it?!?

Here's another little PRIMER for all you folks that don't seem to ahve a CLUE: http://www.realtor.org/toolkits/brokerrisk19

Carla E. Muss-Jacobs, ABR, CEBA, e-PRO Broker/Owner EBA Portland, LLC 14845 SW Murray Scholls Dr., #110-518 Beaverton, OR 97007 (503) 810-7192 EMAIL TO: CarlaHomes@msn.com All rights reserved. Copyright protected. EBA Portland, LLC. does not authorize the disseminating, distributing or copying of content in whole or in part. This message contains confidential information intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or the person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that reading, disseminating, distributing or copying this message is strictly prohibited.

It's sad when labor starts telling owners how to run their business and what they should or shouldn't pay. When they can take a break and how many. When they can smoke and how often. How many days paid vacation they are going to get. Who they can work for and who they can't. What they can charge and can't.

I will shut my company down before I ever let a union tell me what to do.

Noel, oops, looks like not everyone likes your idea :-( sorry to say I didn't really like it either, just didn't want to be the first to burst your bubble. I was actually being facetious.

Carla, you made me laugh, thanks :-)

Carla

I think NAR's Boycott policy was to eliminate racists activity or even groups of agents deliberately not selling or listing in an area to drive prices down in order to go in with their fat investment accounts and snap up cheap real estate in an artificilly depressed market. They also want to avoid anti trust activity like you discussed. The banks are not our competion they are a seller. I don't think there's anything wrong with telling my fellow agents that a certain seller is a tough cookie and I wouldn't take their listing. I am only suggesting we raise own standards by demanding more and if it means not doing business with a bank then so be it. Do you take every listing that comes to you, or do you "boycott" the ones that don't fit your criteria?

All I am saying is REO's ans BPO's do not fit my criteria and I suggest that if more agents raised their standards we would all be better off. I have no respect for agents who take listings from me or 'win' them over me because they are cheaper. I always follow the ones I don't get and so far 100% of the time they provide inferior service.

There needs to be more legislation bottom line. Look at the airline business, no one makes money because every week you have a start up charging cheaper fares then by weeks end they're gone. The only ones that can survive are the ones with deep pockets to constantly weather the storms.

The point of the blog wasn't to form a boycott, it was my own personal opinion of what I think would help fix some of our problems. If NAR thinks I am forming a boycott of anyone to put them out of business they are mistaken and so are you.

I will still stick to my guns as long greed is the sole driving force, we will never be a great country again.

Please do me a favor and visit my web site for Free Real Estate Listings at www.Globalmultiplelisting.com Just enter coupon code RE1000 for FREE SILVER listings. The web site is marketed to buyers from all over the world. Also can I add you in my group as an associate? Thanks so much for the help! Ben

I agree I don't want anyone telling me how to run my business either, I did say steal ideas not form a union.

Jessica

What you said is scary, that is actually a union busting tactic. However if it weren't for unions you would have no paid vacations, sick days, breaks, etc. Do you provide those for your employees now? Do you do it out of the goodnees of your heart or is it for employee retention? And if you do it to keep employees happy then you are already victim to a "union" just not organized. Like I said before we all enjoy the benefits of our forefathers struggles, no one wants anyone telling them what to do, that's the point of being in business for yourself, freedom to do what you want!

Hi Noel -- Interesting idea. If agents did not do BPOs, I'm sure some AVM would substitute, or some other "genius" idea.

I understand what you mean about the organized labor being good and bad, and agree with what you've stated in regards to that.

About BPO's and listings: I have worked as an appraiser, and I agree with you regarding the BPOs and paying for what they really should be using.

However, getting the agents/brokers together on not taking any kind of listing (REO or otherwise) seems just too far fetched for me. That would be like getting the buyers to stop making offers over the asking amount during the hottest markets. I realize it has to start somewhere, but in the meantime - I'm going to be working those REO listings because I believe that they will soon out number the short sale listings.

It seems to me that if the lenders would give up a bit more of the purchase prce to the 2nd TD holders, they could raise the percentage of closings for the short sale transactions. Wouldn't that help the lenders too, ultimately. I mean instead of proceeding with the foreclosure?

Peter

You got me...lol. I love the free enterprise system, I just would like to see some ground rules. I am a stickler for following rules so when I constantly see "winners" bending and twisting them, I get a little irritated. Let's not even talk about steriods and baseball, hmmmm but steroids and real estate now thats and idea. Oooppps that already happened.

Jeff

It's was just a far fetched idea I had at 2 am one day and thought I would blog about it to get some ideas as to what the rest of the community thought. I agree with, we just need to move as much inventory as possible but the banks don't seem too motivated even less now with the stimulus monies they keep getting.

I still believe that short sales will continue to increase and I disagree with you I think the forclosures will flatten out by early next year because they do not look good on a balance sheet. Only time will tell who's right. Good luck.

Chris

You're right poeple would line up to do this work. Can you imagine anyone doing a BPO fo 50 bucks in 2003? In fact when when I took my licensing course my instructor said some Realtors could fetch as much as $250 for a CMA. My times have changed!

Noel,

I really like the second idea about not listing REO properties.

That would certainly clear the MLS as well as make the banks compromise on short sales.

I like it.

Sign me up. :)

Mark

It's a crazy cycle the REOs are dragging the market prices down then when you call to negotiate a short sale the bank can't believe values have dropped so much in a few months. They have the audacity to ask not to use REO's as comps...huh? Let me get this straight, you foreclosed, now I want to help you avoid another foreclosure and you don't want me using one of your own REO listings/sales as a comp, then you turn around and won't lend money because it won't appraise because guess what your foreclusres are being used as comps.....what the?

As far as ethics are concerned I think NAR has an ethical responsiblity to not allow REOs into the MLS or at least limit them. The banks are not your typical seller and neither are the agents that represent them. They want to sell at all cost and don't care about the price. How many REO listings have you shown that have not been kept up to community standards like the agent agreed to when he/she took the listing. It's all about moving it inventory and who cares about the market. MAybe NAR can somehow limit the percentage of REOs per any given area. I don't know how feasible it is but certainly needs to be addressed if we hope to save communities from having property values continue to decline.

Noel,

Interesting. And, as a daughter of TWO union members - one of my very first memories was picketing outside one of my dad's former employers who let their medical benefits lapse - I can relate. But, I cannot agree with one individual who said to standardize industry working hours, fixed compensation, etc.

I went into business for myself for a reason - FLEXIBILITY, and for none other. And, as someone growing up on picket-line after picket-line, flexibility is not something a union can afford.

Interesting thoughts here, Noel. Congrats on the feature.

Maryellen

I do neither of those activities. Just not worth the effort and you may not get paid in the end. This is a right to work state and want to keep it that way. Many agents will just get tired of doing it. Much like the 50/50 commison splits many companies offer. Talking does work, just look at Obama. people listen when he speaks.

As long as the paying field is level, who needs unions? If you can't compete, well...you lose! The Sherman Anti-Trust Act is doing its job!

Maryellen

That definitely is a downside. You run the risk of the corporations playing the same game and actually they have the pockets to out market any union.

Gary

Interesting observation but that's the point the level field will never be level. I think that's where unions gained their most, promissing a level playing field and delivering it for the most part. What if the common rate of commission dropped to 2% instead of 6%, how many agents do you think would stick around?

Noel - It seems like you think that everything can be equal for everyone. I just don't think that's possible. There is no 'fair' - there are always too many variables! Unions may work for some but I, for one, am happy that we are in a right to work state.

Bruce and Mary - Please explain. My father is from Colorado - a "right to work state" and he has been a life-ling union member. I'm a little confused.

Noel - I was just browsing your website and ran across your blog about Julian. How's he doing?

Maryellen

While I'm at it can I get an unemployment check as well. The government owes me at least that much.

Maryellen

Right to work state is a where you can work at an establishment that has union representation but you can't be forced to join the union. Kind of like having your cake and eating it too. Julian is ok, driving me nuts he is so lovable, today I took a nap on the couch and he jumped on me and wanted to lay with me and "play". He's 11! Here's a video I put together.

Autism Speaks Video

Diapers, powdered milk and cheese too.

I personally do not do REO's listing or BPO's, just a personal preference. I got into this business 30 years ago as a intependent contractor, which lets me choose my clients. And I have never considered this business a fraternity, in fact, the brokers and agents I work with are more like family.

I do agree with you that without the unions of the early 30's we would still have coal miners working, dying and owing all of their pay to the company store.

These times are making all of us think a little more, which isn't bad thing.

Interesting post -- something needs to happen for sure -- not sure what is possible.

1) BPOs are not appraisals, they are CMAs. Banks use BPOs along side of appraisals to set initial list prices, not set values. Supply and demand determine value, not agents.

2) If there were no REO listings in my market area the MLS would be damn near empty. REOs are approximately 90-95% of the current inventory in my area. Bidding wars are a good thing. Several of my properties sell over list price and help boost the market values of a neighborhood because of this practice. The banks are not sitting on offers - they are receiving multiple offers and dealing with them on a case-by-case basis. It is rare that banks are hiring 'starving agents' as the REO niche is not for the agents who cannot cover the costs involved in property management. The banks can pull listings on a whim - if you can't or don't do your job well they will pull the plug and your out of work overnight.

Why your plan is nuts:

In the 1950's demand was high supply was plentiful, and there was no competition of cheap, imported goods like we have today. The technology was not available to enable outsourced services. Anything the US needed the US had to provide for itself on our own soil. When it was cheaper to buy manufactured goods from outside sources the industrial age ended and the US economy switched to a service-based economy. Now, with the advent of the internet, it's cheaper to outsource services too. How will the next shift affect our economy? That is still to be seen.

Your ideas are pushing towards socialism. This country was founded on greed and the ME mentality. If it wasn't for the Founding Fathers getting pissed off at Mother England for taking all their money via taxation we'd be driving on the left side of the road and learning the metric system today.

Business is ruthless. There is always someone willing to work longer hours for less money no matter what business we're talking about. That's capitalism. That's the free market. Learn it, live it, love it. Any company or industry that has to work under union guidelines cannot be competitive. The only way a union shop would get a construction job is if the owner required it (ie: government projects). If they let any and all companies bid the union shops are blown out of the water. The government has been propping up unions since the beginning of time because it's the unions that fund the democratic purses.

Maybe the top 10% make a lot of money, but they also provide jobs for the other 90%. The higher the risk the greater the reward. If you want more go to work and get it. By unionizing you're letting a few at the top dictate how much you're going to make - I'd rather decide for myself how much I'm going to make and what I'm willing to do to make it. Union guys are clock-watchers waiting for their next smoke break that they so sucessfully negotiated with 'the man' - no thanks!

Go ahead ... Don't take the REO listings. Just refer them over to me when you turn them down.

James

LoL......I definitely got what I was looking for-some much needed dialouge.

Sounds like we might have some Rant in these comments, lol!!

Sorry to be so long-winded, but you did open the door! :)

Crap ... How do we subscribe to comments now?

No apologies, I believe I opened a pair of oversized french doors!

Noel,

Learn something new everyday! My parents have a term for "non-union" employees, but I will kindly decline comment here. LOL!

Also, watched your video. Amazing! Especially the sign that said:

"More children will be diagnosed with autism this year than with AIDS, diabetes and cancer combined."

Your son is beautiful. Best of luck to you in your search for a cure.

God's blessings...Maryellen

I am 100% pro union and if anyone has actually studied the labor movement in this country they would know how appalling conditions were and still are in this country for workers. It is sickening to me that anyone would take the side of a corporation. Obviously they dont know better but it is stilll sickening. I am not speaking RE specific but of labor in general.

This is a very interesting post you have here.. Boycott the BPO... Hmmmmm It is hard to believe that banks will use this value.. well actually it helps them... Cheap and most likely a lower value.... YEP... Stop the BPO's I want more money to continue doing them...

FEB

Our country was founded on the basis of unionism, heck some of the originals colonies were called "The Union". Our founding fathers were Freemasons, guess where that organization has it's roots? You guessed it, it is the oldest labor union around. The original Freemasons were, well masons as in bricklayers. They got tired of the crap and united.

I would love to go back in time and eliminate the unions and then snap back to present day. Most of us probably wouldn't be able to afford the internet let alone the computer we are using to blog today. It's a fact as cumbersome and bureaucratic as unions are, they force corporations and business to raise standards. It's really a sad day when the only way I can compete is by outsourcing some of my services to call centers and virtual assistants in India.

That's what I mean about a level playing field. Imagine if those call centers were unionized and their standards were raised to ours. Where would the so called "competitive advantage" be now? So many people in the service industry sell themselves on great CHEAP service. When they get the business they deliver on the cheap part but service soon suffers because the numbers don't make it a lucrative endeavor. The first thing to suffer when there is less money is service.

I will proudly pay more for a better product or service. My wife and friends think I'm nuts but I am of the mentality that you have to take care of those who take care of you. (Don't know if that has anything to do with unionism or not.)

My dad was a union member and it amazed me how wasteful and unproductive it made employees. I was amazed that a company could stay in business with a unionized work force. I guess we'll see if the unions bring down GM.

I think that freedom and individual initiative are what made this country prosper. Someone in an early comment mentioned that unionizing will never work because someone will always be willing to take less and do more. That's the problem with collectivism. To get it to work right you eventually need to use some force. At first it doesn't seem too bad. A little force in order to create a greater good for all. That's the path that leads to a dictatorship.

Sorry, but I like the idea of freedom and competition. But you always have the freedom to start your own union and see how it goes. Just don't force me to join.

Noel-I had to come back to comment. Unions..I'm not saying anything negative or positive about them but what I will say...growing up...my mom worked for the phone company...they went on strike...and my mom..was called a scab..broken windows in cars for those that opted to work...paint..etc...etc. Fights broke out...some jailed...but one thing my mom thought about through the whole thing...I have 7 children to feed.

While she paid union dues...her children were more important. Its the one time in her life..she felt good being called a bad name!

I don't think this would go over well with most people..heck many reject NAR and FAR..I for one love my freedom and really and truly do not need an organization to keep me in check...when all is said and done and at the end of the night...I look myself in a mirror very proud.

Boycotting..and real estate just don't mix..at least for me! Great post and some great conversation!

Tim

I think it takes a great management team to get employees to preform at their optimum regardless of a union. I have seen unproductive non-union members as well, it's just easier to fire them. It's like anything, you have those who will use unions to take advantage of and to do the least amount of work as possible.

The most heavily unionized Airline is Southwest Airlines, they are also the only Airline to have not had a loss in in their entire history. So how can they make it work where every other airline can't? It's all about culture and leadership.

Midori

As far as a strike goes, no one wins but there are just as many horror stories of corporations hiring thugs to do the same types of things. As a matter of fact I wouldn't doubt it if some of those harassing your mom were company representatives hired to make the union look bad in the media and remove the "sympathy" advantage from the unions negotiating edge. How much faster would have the strike been resolved if there were 100% participation and would those same jobs enjoy the same benefits once the union is gone? I doubt it.

One reminder to all, I am not advocating creating a RE Union. I just wanted to open some dialouge and see how we as RE Professionals could help the President fix the housing crisis. I used union ideas as one example of what can be done. In no way am I advocating for a boycott of any type nor am I organizing one.

Noel

I like your post and good intentions. I think, every thought or comment of mine has already been commented on.

The me, me, me mentality ........ just the sound of it.

Tere

And in real estate there are thugs as well. Nothing is perfect...you are right if there was 100 % participation..things might have rolled a different way...but freedom comes with a price..and so does regulation.

I've worked in the corporate world..and I saw some climb so high..not based on experience..or based on skill..in real estate its the same thing but there comes a point...when it catches up with people. I understand that you are not trying to create a UNION..as a matter of fact..its these unique thoughts that cause the world to move foreward..by creating conversation...then movement and then action! :)

This is exactly what I wanted, however I wish it contained more of ideas of how to fix the mess rather than a pro and con conversation about unions. No matter what subject you discuss there will always be supporters and non-supporters.

My nature is to help people and fix things. When I was younger I used my hands now my musles and bones ache so I would rather use my mind and help people in different ways. The short sale is one example.

My biggest issue with unions is that, while they do put a floor on pay they also put a ceiling on it. I would rather operate without limits

Unions have definitely falling out of favor with a large portion of the American public, however they do serve a good purpose. Unions were established to negotiate contracts to establish basic minimums with regards to pay, work conditions and other things. Most importantly pay....hmmm a contract to establish basic rates of pay for services provided..... sound familiar? How many of us would take a listing that merely states that the client will make their best effort to pay us what they feel like paying?

You know what is sad about this conversation is that people talk about capitalism and all its glory. Sure it shaped this country and it is a powerful force but the assumption is that it is competitive. By default sure but not when corporations are introduced to the mix. They for the most part are far from competitive. They buy out their competition. They are the complete opposite of capitalism. They are a driving force in that they drive this country into the ground. They dont compete in any way. If a new startup comes a long (capitalism in action) they just buy it out. They dont compete. So please forgive me if I object to this ridiculous notion that corporatism is the same thing as capitalism.

If it were not for the labor movement in this country we would have child labor still because if you remember we used to have sweat shops in this country. Would you like your 6 year old kid working in a factory with known fire hazards and then watching it burn to the ground? Oh yes that was America. How would that be to compete with other nations that look the other way when it comes to child labor? Surely you understand that without the labor movement and strong government action we would still be doing this today. There is no reason we wouldnt. Thats the ugly side of capitalism. Thats how you compete. Thats why we dont have unbridled capitalism in this country. Thats why we regulate industries.

You are kidding yourself if you think the American dream even exists in this country. It is a myth perpetuated by those in power to give a false hope for people who have nothing and will always have nothing.

Is this country really in such a bad shape that people honestly believe that corporations are looking out for us? I mean do you really believe that? You really think they would regulate themselves? What evidence do you have for this? Because I can point out thousands of reasons why this is a terrible idea. History has constantly proved this all over the world.

I believe in capitalism to an extent but to suggest that we have a free market in this country or that having one is good is ridiculous. We have never had one and with good reason. With inherited wealth there never can be this free rise to the top. Sure you can point out a few examples of individuals who have but 99.99% will never achieve that. Thats not capitalism. Inherited wealth means you are born rich and you will die rich. Thats not capitalism thats a silver spoon. Most at the top did nothing to achieve that "status" they were born at the top.

GREAT JOB NOEL. I'm in, where do I sign up

Shane

I couldn't have put any better. Thank you for verbalizing what I was thinking. Capitalism is a falicy that the ones who are capitalizing most protect. Does anybody actually think The Bushes, Kennedys, Rockerfellers, etc. have had to work in recent times? All you have to do is watch Paris on TV and that should give you a clear picture as to what this country has become.

Whenever something becomes mainstream the rules are changed. Take for example the bankruptcy code. It was all fine and dandy when Trump was filing for bankruptcy every 5 years but when mainstream America started playing the same game, all of a sudden the law was no good and had to be fixed. Same thing happened in the eighties in commercial real estate now its happening in residential real estate. After the rich have bleed the system to death, they change the rules to slam the door shut on everyone else.

Sidney

I hear NAR is holding elections soon. Want to be on my ticket? LOL

We have merely let our government get totally out of control where we have lost control. I was hoping for change, but that obviously is not going to happen. It is now time to step up to the plate and scream to you government to stop the pork.....and to pass a term limit law to get the bozos out of there. They are out of control and are taking us down. It is time to get nasty.

There are alot of people regretting the choices they have made......including me.

Tim

It's always the same ole routine, just a different group getting the pork now.

I agree that there was a need for unions at one time just as there was a need for affirmative action and other regulations to 'level the field' but that time has past. When this country wakes up from the Obama juice they have been drinking they'll see what a mess we'll be in when he and his cronies are done.

The government should have never stepped in with the bailouts and other BS that's going on ... The beauty of the free market is that it will correct itself if left alone. No one forced people to sign on to crappy loans. No one forced the auto makers to build cars no one wants to buy. If left alone all the mess would have resolved on its own and a lot quicker than it will now that the government has thrown OUR money at the problem.

Yes, it would have been painful, but the banks and corps that survived would have been strong and stable.

We are now faced with the Dems taxing us to death and growing government into an overbearing monster that will take years to repair - if ever. With the entitlement mentality that most people seem to have nowadays this stuff never goes away.

The Founding Fathers believed in limited government and freedom of the people. They are spinning in their graves over the BS that is going on today.

I agree whole heartedly we should have left it play out. Now the world is probably laughing at us and saying that our capitalistic system is a sham. If we continue to throw tax payer dollars at corporate problems then guess what it is a sham. While we're at it why didn't we bail out Enron and Eastern Airlines? In the capitalistic system there is a fixed amount of currency (At least that's what I thought) that we all vie for. If no one is spending then no one is making money. The problem is too many at the top are hoarding the cash and not reintroducing it so we have to have infusion from government to keep the charade going. I think these bailouts may even worsen the depression and bring us to the brink of something more sinister. I don't want to even contemplate what is going to happen. In my area, banks and armored trucks are being robbed on a weekly basis. It all begins with those at the bottom if they aren't spending then the system won't work.

I hate to give anything away, but if anyone should have gotten a cash bailout it's those at the bottom. History tells us they have no problem spending it so it will immediately come back in the form or revenues and tax dollars. The banks will only continue with their lavish lifestyles and ridiculous perks. I liked Reagan's economics, trickle down only it really is trickle up, because it always trickles back up.

It wasnt just Reagan that was Alan Greenspans baby. It was a joke watching him lie to the American people and pretend he didnt know that greed could take down capitalism. That was pure propaganda to benefit the rich in this country and shove BS down the throats of the american people.

It should be bottom up. The people at the top should lose it all and that money go back to the bottom where it belongs. That money represents trillions of hours of labor of the American people that has seen its way filtered through the pyramid scheme that is our economy, filtered to the top. Rather unfiltered it just runs like a torrent to the top.

Anyone who is sticking up for a corporation over the average working american must have some sick sense of humor or be in such a privelaged state to even make that statement. There isnt a single industry that has not had to fight tooth and nail for basic rights. We cant even get a decent minimum wage because of the blowhards who keep preaching this capitalistic BS as if its the gospel truth, that if we were to raise it then supposedly they would have to raise prices. But the CEOs have no problem giving themselves raises as they see fit while some apparently can't see past the propaganda and actually believe that these people deserve what they got. As if being a CEO was earned from working your way from the bottom to the top. I am sure they would have you believe that and if you do I really feel sorry for you. There is not one bit of capitalism in corporatism in that regard.

Well again I am writing a book. I will save my breath but at least there is some common sense here Noel I thank you for that.

Shane

Did you see the piece on Northern Trust Bank? They blew a million dollars on what amounted to a big party. Their response: The events were funded by operating funds not bailout money. This after laying off 450 people. This is exactly the type of arrogance where if an employee walk into the corporate headquarters and went "postal" I would be the first in line to support a full pardon. This is a travesty. God I wish a good beat down when warranted was legal.

Amazing. Since when does anything trickle up? That goes against the basic laws of physics as well as economics. The money needs to be in the hands of the people that create not consume. If you give $1000 to an average Joe, yeah, they'll spend $1000. What will they spend it on? Stuff that an entrepreneur / businessman created.

If you give that same $1000 to a business owner they will take it and invest in their business creating the goods and services others consume. They hire people. They buy things to make more things. They are the ones that run this ecomony. That is trickle-down. If I sit around and wait for a hand-out so I can go buy something how is that making me a better person? How is that helping the economy? The old addage stands true: Give a man a fish he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime. Hell, he might even buy a few boats and pay someone to fish for him!

Decent minimum wage? What is a decent minimum wage? This is another Socialist scam. If you've got a job that pays minimum wage you should better your skills and get a better job. Minimum wage was never designed to be a living wage to support a family. If you're trying to do that you may as well stay home and collect welfare - it pays better.

All the class-envy arguments are what keeps people down and waiting for Mother Government to rescue them. Give people the tools to better themselves and quit telling them that they can't do it without government's help and you'll see an economic rebound that would be amazing! That's the difference between the '50's and now ... self-sufficiency has been lost to the generations who have grown up waiting for the 1st and 15th and we are all paying the price today.

This is why we should have never given any tax dollars to these companies. If they want to blow a million bucks on a party, go ahead. It wasn't any of our business. Foolish companies would be weeded out by going under ... Now they're just like the rest of the welfare recipients spending their food stamps on a bag of Cheetos.

James its not possible for everyone to rise up as you are implying. And your idea of trickle down is as failed an economic theory as their ever could be one. Have you looked around lately? Smells a lot like failed theory to me and everyone else except those who wish to maintain the status quo. Believe what you want but no one is buying what you are saying anymore. You obviously fail to understand why minumum wage needs to be enforced. Its really sad if you honestly believe that people can just "get a better job" you act as if they dont want to. Oh wait thats the other propaganda that is spread.. they want to be where they are or they are just too lazy. If they worked harder they would be somewhere better. Suuuuuuuuuuure. Keep on saying it. No one believes it. Class envy? We are supposed to be in a classless society!! Are you kidding me? There is not supposed to be class in this country. That just goes a long with the other lies that there is such a thing as social mobility. If you are born poor in this country chances are you will remain poor no matter how hard you work. The reverse is true as well. Thats not capitalism and anyone who has studied this doesn't think so either. You can keep saying this stuff but its just not true. Just because rich people perpetuate these lies doesnt make them so. There is a lot of money in perpetuating these myths and forcing them down the throats of the people in this country. Some of us are just not ok with it.

One more thing:

Trickle down or whatever you want to call it was an economic theory and not fact. It was tried in this country for many years probably almost 30 and look where we are today? Facts? The rich got richer and the poor got poorer. The gap between rich and poor has never been greater in this country. We have more poor people now than ever. We have richer people than ever. These are facts.

Another economic theory is to give to the bottom and then have the wealth trickle up. That is a theory. I got an idea. We gave the other theory a good 30 years and it destroyed us. Lets give the other theory a whirl. I am willing to take the risk that the poor get richer and the rich get poorer. Gee as if that sounds like a bad thing.

James

Lol, can't argue with you there, but what I was saying was (maybe I wasn't as clear as I was thinking it) if your going to blow cash to the wind why give it to people who are going to screw it up again. At least if you give it to a welfare recipient it will get spent into the economy. Yes Cheetos employs people too. If no one buys Cheetos then they go out of business.

Self sufficiency works if you invest in the educational resources to teach people to do so. How can a product of the projects get ahead if he can't have doors opened for him because he has empty pockets. You say hard work and good grades? If the kid can't read a lick because the schools are crap where are we then. Give those kids the same education as the rich kids then we can talk about self sufficiency. Cuba is a perfect example. Everyone there gets educated, then because of political oppression they flee and are able to prosper. Can you imagine a country where all their residents were educated and had equal opportunity? I think that's what was envisioned 200 plus years ago but is it happening?

You want free market and capatilism? Then send us all to the same schools then on to ivy league and see what happens. I came from the "Hood" and if it wasn't for my fathers union job allowing decent wages to send me to private school, I'd probably still be there.

Give me the free market system but give the same perks and cronyism that the so called "successful" people enjoy. Give me a business loan on my signature because I graduated Harvard with the president of the bank and we were drinking buddies. That's business the American way! I love America, it's the arrogant forgetful blowhards I can live without.

Shane

I wrote my response before reading yours, Amen brother.

Noel,

I subscribed to this feed and have been enjoying the banter back in forth, but I had enough when James said:

"Now they're just like the rest of the welfare recipients spending their food stamps on a bag of Cheetos."

How completely ignorant and heartless! My guess would be that he doesn't know a single person on welfare. And, if he does, I highly doubt he has any TRUE understanding of their situation.

I am a daughter of TWO union members and DAMN PROUD of it! My father was kicked out of the house at age 15 by his alocholic father 2 days after his mother died of brain cancer - in his arms. He lived in the back of a Chevy Impala for TWO YEARS on the South side of Chicago until a dear woman, and UNION MEMBER, took him in and showed him how he could do it on his own.

I am not a union member - I am a business owner. So, how's that? From living on the streets on the South Side to a 6+ figure income one simple generation later. Sounds like it's alive and well!

With respect...Maryellen

Pure BS. The current situation was perpetuated by activist groups and government hacks that wanted to put people into a house (a chicken in every pot? sounds familiar) even if they could not afford it. The whole scam came full-circle and imploded on itself. All the fools who signed the loan docs are all victims of the evil lenders ... BS. No one held a gun to anyone's head. People need to take on some personal responsibility. You failed. Get up, dust off, and try again.

You got it. They DON'T want to better themselves. Anyone can sit around and bitch about 'the man' holding them down. It takes drive and initiative to dig yourself out of your hole. Hard work works every time. If you can't "get" a better job, "create" a better job. THAT is the beauty of America.

Class-envy is exactly what you are promoting in your comments here. This country is as classless as it is colorblind and your spew proves that point. No one in this country - rich, poor, black, white - is held back from success by anyone but themselves and folks such as yourself telling them that they can't do it on their own. There is no excuse for staying in a situation that you are born in to. Foolishness works both ways. How many silver-spoon kids have blown daddy's money because they were never taught how to support themselves? How many people born into poverty have made it to the top?

Speaking from personal experience, I was born poor with my dad working three jobs to make ends meet. He started a company that ended up being fairly successful. I helped run that company for a few years and decided to go on my own and get into real estate. I did very well for a couple of years. When the market changed I almost went bankrupt because I didn't react quickly enough. I almost lost our house and there were days my family and I did not have food. What did I do? I worked night and day to rebuild and restructure my business. Last year I paid for two years worth of bills. This year will be better. Now the tables have turned ... my Dad has hit hard times and is back to square 1 again. Is he calling Obama and begging for a bailout? No, he's regrouping and planning his next move.

Don't tell me it can't be done. If you are motivated, opportunities abound. Opportunities that anyone can take advantage of if they are willing to do the work. This is not a myth, it is fact, and I am living proof. I am by no means a wealthy man, but what I have I earned. No one has given me a leg-up or any special treatment. Am I an aberration? I think not. Anyone can do what I have done if they put in the time, shut the hell up, and do the work.

James we get it. You are a republican. We have heard this all before and like I said no one believes it anymore except apparently you. Why do you think your party is scrambling so hard trying to find an identity?

And because you worked hard and were lucky enough to make it that means that everyone else is just plain lazy. Thats such a lovely picture you paint and if only it were true. I worked 80-90+ hours/ week for years on end at $6 an hour and still couldnt afford to quit and go back to school. You want to tell me I wasnt working hard enough? I wasnt smart enough? I didnt try hard enough? I was lucky enough to have a decent public education before that and lucky enough I was born smart enough to go to college and still owe $40,000 in student loans because yes I took a government handout in the form of a loan. I guess I didnt deserve that. I was also lucky enough not to have been severely injured in any of this time or gotten sick in any way because with over 10 years with no health care I certainly couldnt have afforded medical bills and no one would have helped me out of debt had I gone down that road which by the way happens to millions of Americans. Oh yeah we dont want to talk about that everyone has health care lol.

Everyone works hard its just that some people dont make it. You were lucky and I am glad you were but that doesnt mean that everyone else is as lucky as you are.

James,

You didn't really read my comment, did you?????? I said:

"...South side of Chicago until a dear woman, and UNION MEMBER, took him in and showed him how he could do it on his own."

Next time you tell someone they are full of BS, get your facts straight.

I applaud you and your father for making something of yourselves. I applaud everyone who has the guts to do it. But, to simply make a pejorative comment like:

"...like the rest of the welfare recipients."

make sure you understand that you are, like the capitalistic society you seem to relish, stereotyping people and, by extension, holding them back from their true potential.

Maryellen

...updated comment, fingers moved faster than brain...

Noel - With respects, I will try to refrain from further comments in order to not Hijack your post. A worthy one, that's for sure!

James

So what housing project did you grow up in? I thought so. You can't pretend to be, well stupid (that's what it's called when you have no education). Stupid people just can't get to the pinnacle like you have my friend, unless of course they play a sport. I guess to the extent you are right.

Ain't nobody begging for a hand out, just EQUAL opportunity, don't you get it? The only way to have drive and initiative is if you're taught it. You're a perfect example of what I was talking about. Your dad taught you those traits, just like mine did. Speaking of dad do you think the kids in the projects have one? That's what a good education and/or mentor will do for you. It will teach self sufficiency.

What's it all for anyway? Work 24/7 have a nice house,new cars, beautiful family all of which I will never see because well I'm working. Been there done that. I for one will enjoy what little I have and be appreciative. I'm just too tired to continue this craziness to end up dead at 40 and never even knowing my kids.

Maryellen

Guess where I was born and raised? Chitown baby Northwest Side, but I am a die hard White Sox fan, I knew I liked you for a reason!

Noel,

Unfortunately, my father moved me from Chicago when I was only 6 years old - but all of our family is still there (DuPage County, mostly). My dad is the only Sox fan in a family of die-hard Cubs fans. Yikes!!!

We don't get back as often as I would like. But I love the memory of taking my husband for a hot dog from (name escapes me) and he shouted, at the top of his lungs, "That's not a Chicago dog! Where's the sour crout?" OMG! We had to run for the hills!!!!!

Have a great day!

Maryellen

I just wanted to say one more thing. James by your own admission your dad worked hard at was it 3 jobs? Then luckily his company made it. What if it hadnt? Would he still be working those 3 jobs like most people are in this country? Would he be 70 or 80 years old still working so hard because it still wouldnt be enough because he still couldnt save enough for retirement like many people in this country are still doing? Would you be where you are? Would you say that he deserved to be poor because he wasnt smart enough or ingenious enough to make it had he failed in his endeavor? Because thats what you are saying and that really saddens me and I bet if you really asked your dad those questions he, I hope, would agree. Its much easier to say you deserve to be where you are instead of feeling guilty because other people have worked just as hard if not harder and they die poor. I am proud to be in that minority that believes different and acts different.

I don't care who the President is or who is in congress. As long as they have the same attitudes toward Americans it will be business as usually. Heck if I were in congress I'd take those same handouts as well, oopps there goes that word again.

Noel - I can't agree with you more. Politics is politics. It's two different sides of the same coin.

Noel:

The point is that the "trickle-up" doesn't have the potential to be as far-reaching and economically stimulating as the "trickle-down." If there were no Cheetos to buy the stimulus ends there. By letting business run unhindered the possibility of job creation and wealth building increases for all.

The schools are crap everywhere ... That's a topic for another discussion. If the kid can't read a lick then that's child abuse from a poor parent (I'm gonna get kicked for that one too, I can hear the boot whistling now). There are so many programs available there is no excuse for poor, basic education - don't even go there. Some of the greatest minds and success stories of our time were uneducated by traditional standards.

You keep going back to people needing doors opened for them. My whole point is that you should be opening your own doors. When the doors were LOCKED that was a problem that needed government intervention. The doors have been UNLOCKED for years now - TRY THE KNOB!

Maryellen:

I am not ignorant nor heartless. I wan't painting with a broad-brush but using a specific subset of a group of people to make a point. I've been in stores way too often watching someone buy junk with their stamps while wearing $200 jeans and shoes. Does every welfare recipient do that? NO and I never said they did.

Your last sentance proves my point well, thank you. Everyone can make it in this country if they have the desire to.

Maryellen #2:

I was not responding to your first comment nor had I read it before I posted the comment you are reacting to. We're crossposting here and getting confused. Please read my comment to your first comment above.

Shane:

We get it, you're a Democrat.

I take offense that you call me lucky. Luck has nothing to do with my success or lack of. Luck assumes that one has no control of their situation which is so far from the truth it is laughable. However, it is a typical Democrat sentimant.

It sounds like you were working plenty hard, but hard at the wrong thing. Are you telling me that your skill-set only allowed you to work at a $6/hr job? If not, then yes, you weren't smart enough to step out of your comfort zone and find a better source of income. People use lack of schooling as a crutch. There are plenty of ways to earn a good living without a higher education. Jeez, become a REALTOR! :)

A loan is not a bailout it is a loan that gets repaid. A grant would be a bailout. :) I've never had health insurance in my life, so I don't feel sorry for you there. That's a whole other discussion too.

Yes, some people don't make it but it is not because they don't have the opportunity.

Noel (again):

I didn't grow up in a project, but I have lived in garages. Everyone does have an equal opportunity they just need to grab it. We agree on dads, and that's another difference between now and the '50s ... Family values were much stronger then than they are now for the most part. There is still a minority of us that believe in the strength of 2-parent families.

Shane (again):

My dad has never had an on-the-clock job nor have I. He's always found odd jobs or temp work and gone from there, so no, he wouldn't be working the same job. As for the second question ... yes, he will probably be working at 70 to 80 yrs because, though he's a hard worker, he's never been smart about money. This is the one thing that I hope that I get better at than he. At this point, I just hope that my success continues so that I can help him in his old age when it gets to that point. And that leads right back to family support NOT government support which is as it should be.

That's what makes this country so damn great look at all the spirited debate and enthusiasm defending ones position. We can all agree to disagree but one thing we must ALL agree on: if you don't have money you can't buy a damn thing. Whether its through hard work or government handout, you still need it to make America go round and round. Point is we are the only ones that can fix this mess not Obama, not the kid in the projects-us middle America. So how do we do it? Do we continue to trust Washington? Do we continue to ignore our crippling educational infrastructure? Where do we begin.......probably a good start to my next thread. Thank you all for all the input, especially Maryellen, Shane and of course James.

After reading these comments, I feel like I must be living in a different country. I just can't sit back any more and let this stuff go unchallenged.

Shane said: If you are born poor in this country chances are you will remain poor no matter how hard you work. The reverse is true as well.

I think you are hanging around with the wrong people. The opportunity in this country is unbelievable. But it all starts with the correct frame of mind. There are just too many examples of people starting out with nothing and becoming a success. I'm bumping up on what Obama considers rich and I grew up in a pretty poor home.

If things were totally rigged by the big corporations, how do you explain Microsoft, Google, Yahoo, YouTube, Apple and so many other great success stories.

Everyone who champions a higher minimum wage and more government regulations needs to go out and start their own business. Pay your workers a good living wage and give them great benefits. You'll soon realize that it's really tough to turn a profit and consumers will only pay so much for a product or service.

If you want to help out a hard working person, hire them to work around your home. Then pay them whatever you want. Buy them health insurance. Give them paid vacations. What's stopping you?

Someone brought up education. I agree, that is very important. But I don't agree with the current system of government schools. We've tried that system for a long time now. How's that working for us? How about giving everyone a voucher and letting them decide where they want to spend the money going to school. Oh, I forgot. That might not be good for all of the teacher union members.

I agree with what was said about the rich getting richer but I don't agree with the reason given. In my opinion, there are two big reasons for the wealth gap. First, there will always be a wealth gap. Some people just have more talent than others. Rich people keep doing the things that made them successful.

But the big reason for the growing wealth gap is the subtle creeping effects of inflation. Not many people understand this, but as long as there is inflation, money will eventually end up in the hands of the people who get the money first. In our current system, it's mostly the companies with big government contracts, the miltary/industrial complex.

Most people that I know who might be considered wealthy, seem to be very nice, honest, smart hardworking people. They saw a problem and figured out a way to make it better. People freely paid them well for providing them with the needed product or service. Many took risks that most wouldn't ever consider. Mix in a little luck and you get success.

Yes, there are people who got rich through inheritance or through fraud, but I think those are the exceptions. Those people are probably the unhappy ones. They have to cling to their money because they never developed the skills to become rich. The truly successful people are usually happier because they know that if they lost it all tomorrow, they would be able to gain it all back again. No one can rob them of what's in their mind.

Wealth starts in the mind. If you don't have the right mind set, you'll never attract money and you'll never hold on to it. You can split up all the money in America evenly and in a few years, you'll be back to some people being rich and some people being poor. Look at many of the lotto winners. In a few years, many are back to where they were before winning.

Well said, Tim. The lotto winner is a great example.

Thanks for chiming in ... I was beginning to feel lonely!

Nice comments James and Tim. Right on track with what will REALLY work for all of us, if we put it to use. Personal responsibility and some unforced assistance from other willing folks will make a bigger difference in our current state of affairs.

James - Thank you for making that clarification. And, for the record, I don't disagree with everything you are saying. I resented, what I saw as, your grouping people together (by your own admission) to simply make a point. I believe that does not good for anyone and only continues to perpetuate the problem.

Tim - I agree with you whole-heartedly when you say "Wealth starts in the mind." But, not everyone has the same idea of what makes "wealth." To me, it's being able to stay home and raise my daughter (which I do) and go into the office only one day a week (which I do). I may not be making as much as some, but I can tell you I am making more than a lot.

To sum up my whole arguement on this thread: Pro-union, anti-union means nothing at all if PEOPLE are lost in the process.

With respects...Maryellen

FEB

Maryellen, I think you meant to say "what is wealth". That indeed might be different to different people.

But I think the big question that has been debated is who has the right to the wealth that is created. Is wealth creation a collective endeavor that we then collectively decide how to split up or is wealth creation an individual process and the individual has the right to decide how they choose to use it. That determines what kind of system is set up.

In my 20s, I read Karl Marx and others and socialism and communism sounded really good to me.

There were two books that I then read that completely changed my thinking. They had the most logical arguments I had ever read about the subject. "The Law" and "The Road to Serfdom". Those then led me to read "Atlas Shrugged". I highly recommend them.

MAR

Tim (and Noel),

I need to clarify that I am a Capitalist - I better be, I'm a small business owner. I just am fed up with the neglect of those "at the top" and the abuse of those "at the bottom." Far too many people portray individuals on welfare as lazy and undeserving. I do know that the evidence is OVERWHELMING that white-collar and corporate crime cost the American taxpayer BILLIONS more than welfare abuse. The rules of logic have to take over --- those "at the top" simply have access to more.

I am not stating, simply, that there aren't lazy people out there. I know there are. I just resent the grouping of people to simply make a point. I have always steered away from anyone who has to exagerrate to make a point.

Thanks for your comment. I apologize in getting back to you. I had to pay attention to my own blog for the last couple of days.

I think Noel has a great blog here and I don't want to take away from the attention that he deserves. If you wish to continue this conversation, I will be happy to do it off-line.

Best regards...Maryellen

Geez I hate being misread. I said "Now they're just like the rest of the welfare recipients spending their food stamps on a bag of Cheetos." What I did not say was that *ALL* welfare recipients are buying bags of Cheetos. I was specifiying a particular group within a group. I'm sorry if that was not clear.

What ticks me off is that people hear/read anything against a group of any kind and immediately assume that the whole group is being painted with a broad brush. This politically correct society we live in is way out of hand.

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