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GENUINE BUYER AGENT SHOULD KNOW HOUSES

Time and time again, I have performed home inspections on horrid homes where the purchaser was represented by a reported Buyer Agent. What I don't understand is that often, the obvious dreadful defects I report come as a complete surprise to the Buyer Agent and my client.

Mt question is a how can a real estate agent represent themselves as a Buyer Agent and not have any expertise in recognizing the condition of the home?

The National Association of Exclusive Buyer Agents (NAEBA) standards of practice state in part that "the Buyer Agent will discuss and evaluate the properties viewed with his/her Buyer-Client, comparing each property shown with the target property profile". How does the Buyer Agent evaluate the home without specific training?

We all are aware that there are numerous real estate sales agent designations that can be earned. Shouldn't there be required training courses for Buyer Agents to help recognize the visible major defects found in a home?

Most automobile sales people are trained on the cars they are selling. But I have met with Buyer Agents that know next to nothing about houses. Importantly, it must also be stated that I have met several accomplished Buyer Agents that are very knowledgeable in every aspect of their profession.

I suggest that the real estate industry education providers develop substantial training courses regarding home construction and the visible major flaws for its professionals. The proper designation can then separate the imposters from the genuine Buyer Agent. The professional Buyer Agent Associations should also require certain minimum education requirements to establish credibility.

The end result will increase the level of confidence in real estate Buyer Agent, in addition to saving valuable resources reviewing and inspecting homes that may never make it to closing.

Glen Fisher southjerseynpi@aol.com

"The South Jersey Home Inspector"

Posted by Glen Fisher on 03/11/2009 09:10 AM

Comments (81)

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81 Comments on GENUINE BUYER AGENT SHOULD KNOW HOUSES

MAR

Glen, I couldn't agree with you more. I have done numerous renovations myself, from minor to completely to the studs. I believe that does make me a better buyer agent. I am going to help that new first time buyer find a home that is not going to take an arm and leg to bring up to speed. Not to mention putting all the work into finding a home in the first place only to be killed off in the inspection report. Then it's back to square one. Have a great day and thanks.

You completely misunderstand the role of a Buyer's Agent.

We are not home inspectors. I thought that was your job.

Just what is a "genuine buyer's agent"???

I'm inspired. I'll write about it.

funny post... think of it as job security....

Glen,

Maybe it would help if you gave an example of what you saw that made you believe the buyer's agent was clueless. I think I know some things about houses but when the buyer wants to know if something is right or not, I give an opinion and also indicate we will get confirmation from the inspector. I have to play my position and not imply that I am an expert in the construction or maintenance area. I think agents represent, and inspectors inspect.

Glen,

I have to say I'm with Lenn in your opinion "what is a genuine buyer's agent"?

I have to tell you, my feathers were ruffled the moment I read the "Genuine" buyers agent.

Edit: It appears that others were also a tad bit ruffled about your use of the word genuine. That's what I get for not reading comments before adding my own deflated 2 pennies.

I represent buyers in the purchase of their homes and one role I will not undertake is that of a home inspector.

Yes, I can point out certain things (basements should not have water puddles, life span of roofing shingles look like they may be at the low end, etc.) but I always tell people that I'm not an electrician nor a plumber nor a structural engineer.

A buyer hires a home inspector for their professional expertise. They hire me for my professional expertise. I will not step into the shoes of a home inspector and pretend to know things that I don't. I also do not expect a home inspector to tell me how to conduct myself professionally when they don't know my job.

I am waiting with baited breath (bated?) Lenn was a member of NAEBA. I can't tell if the writer is saying he ran into a NAEBA agent who doesn't fit the billing. Or if he is pro NAEBA because they do claim to do a better job than non NAEBA members.

I took a great home inspection course back in the late 80's.

I am not sure a certification for home condition for real estate agents would work w/ real estate licensing or home inspection licensing in different states.

Reported Buyer's Agent? Genuine Buyer's Agent? Not sure what those terms mean. I'm a real estate agent, there are some things I don't do, I don't practice law, or for that matter do home inspections. Are you suggesting agents become licensed home inspectors?

Glen,

I agree with you!

I'm the broker of an Exclusive Buyer Agency office. (From the NAR & NAEBA definition of the term: The company only represents buyers, never lists homes, never has a seller as a client.)

We certainly aren't home inspectors, but one of our service goals is to help buyers understand what they would be negotiating for before they start negotiating. All of our people have extensive home evaluation experience. Not from a "inspection" point of view, but from a "market value" point of view.

Also, most of our people have been through the Michigan builders license class. Not because they are ever going to build a home, but because knowledge of the product is crucial to having a buyer make an informed decision and crucial to the process of negotiating for the correction of problems flagged by the home inspectors.

As an example. I just saw a listing come into our market where the listing agent reported that the home has gas forced air heat. Anyone knowledgable about houses would see from the pictures in the listing that the home has hot water heat. This is basic knowledge that all "genuine" buyer agents should have.

In our experience, many designated buyer agents and buyer agents do not. (Here in Ann Arbor, most licensees are designated buyer agents, not buyer agents.)

Is this the type of thing you are writing about?

Can you give some examples?

Jon Boyd

It clearly says in everything we have as an agent that we are not experts and should not act in that capacity when it comes to determining defects or potential flaws in a home unless we have specific training in that regard say I was an electrician prior to becoming a realtor then sure I should tell someone if I see an obvious hazard. Nor are we to practice law or interpret laws. Our job is strictly to help people find a house its the buyers responsibility to determine the condition of the house. It says so explicitly on our forms. If they want to ascertain the condition then they should hire a licensed inspector. If I were a licensed inspector it would be different.

I am a general contractor as well as a real estate agent. Even so, I still do not look deeply into the condition of a home due to the liability. I will defiantly point out visible defects, but leave the rest up to the inspector. I do understand what you are saying about the major visible defects that an agent should know about!

Interesting post and comments. Truly it is the job of the Home Inspector to identify the condition of the property. However, I have seen friends of mine, who have worked with other agents, buy houses that have questionable areas. Cabinets that weren't in good condition. Bathrooms completely out of style. And I know that for the price they paid, there were houses that were in better condition than the house they have. And I do recognize there are many reasons people buy a house.

I do believe Buyer's Agents need to tactfully point out to clients things about houses that they can compare to other houses that they have seen in the same price range and area. Especially in this market, buyers have too many choices to need to buy inferior houses, unless of course, they are getting a tremendous value.

Buying a house is like so many other areas. It is hard to really make a call until you understand all the facts and all sides. Let's keep walking and trying to do the best for our clients.

Home Inspectors as a general rule have training to specifically designed to help them evaluate the condition of a a property. The ones I recommend to my clients have certification from ASHE. Our contract says we are not home inspectors, attorneys, tax accounts etc. Why would I take on the liabilty of a home inspection? I can for example electric panel and tell the difference between fuses and breaker panel. I can explain to my buyer some issues they may want to consider if they purchase the home with the fuse box but a home inspector is the one who can go into the details of what it takes to maintain the fuse panel and wiring. Something I am not trained to do nor should in my opinion I be required to do.

While it's nice for the buyer's agent to have some concept of a "home in good condition", agents have gotten in trouble in the past, representing their remarks as "inspectors". (ie: yeah, the basement looks dry).

that's for the inspector (the professional in this case) to determine. While we agents may be more familiar with the condition of the home than the average buyer or seller, we are by no means, nor should we be expected to be, inspectors. That's your job, and your training (and not least-of-all your insurance!).

Not to mention the fact that the buyer "wants" an independent opinion of the condition of the home... independent of the Realtor (the guy who gets PAID if you go forward!).

Sorry.. in my opinion, I think you're off-base on this one.

I always thought "how can a brand new licensee be a buyers agent?" If a buyer is paying you for your expertise, and you are brand new....it didn't seem right.... But then sellers pay them for listing expertise, and they have none of that either..

I do think to sign a buyer agency agreement you should have some training ie: ABR designation and some experience, minimum of transactions...

I think it is good to know the basics of home construction. Basic red flags to look for, etc... However, that is why I hava a fantastic inspector- so he can look the house over with his fine tooth (trained) comb and find any problems that are not obvious.

I have to agree with most of the other comments here...Other than pointing out obvious things and using them when writing the contract, my partner and I always recommend a home inspection...We can state an 'opinion' about something we see but that's it, it's just an opinion...Good post, interesting thread.

Glen, Lenn hit the nail on the head. We are not home inspectors. Further, we do help our clients compare the property to what they are looking for, but that comparison is often more about bedrooms, garage space, etc. While we may talk about condition of the home, that judgment is up to the client.

I agree with Alan May too.

Besides, if we go get educated to do your job...then you wouldn't have a job.

Let's not do that!

Glen, I believe that making judgements on the structural safety of a home or whether a home is mechanically "up to par" is best left up to a home inspector, not a real estate agent. Nevertheless, thank you for sharing your point of view.

Through my experience with agents, there is a lot of education needed for them. We provide a rehab class as part of our education curriculum. This literally gets into the nuts and bolts of a home.

This is great. I just love it when other professions think they know how to practice real estate. I do not practice the visual art of Home Inspections. I do hope that the home inspector that my client chooses is knowledgeable and has kept up-to-date in his profession and can write up a clear and intelligent report. In my previous life I acquired a wide range of skills in the construction of homes from shacks to mega mansions and I can tell you I am not very impressed with any inspector. That said, home inspectors are just another optional part of the transaction process.

I am no contractor, but I have rehabbed over 40 houses in the past few years. Great to know about construction as an investor, but as an agent you have to be careful what you tell the buyers. That is why a home inspector is brought it. Let the professionals do their job. I will point out mayor issues of a house, but the rest is the responsibility of the home inspector.

Pat,

How do you propose a new agent get the ABR designation without first having 5 closed transactions with a BRA signed by the client the agent is representing? Did you have any experience when you listed your first home or sold your first home? Seems to me it is the brokers responsibility to train a new agent in exchange for the split the broker is getting. JMHO

"I do think to sign a buyer agency agreement you should have some training ie: ABR designation and some experience, minimum of transactions..."

Glen,

I think you are way off base here. It is not my job to do a home inspection. MAYBE it is my job to point out the obvious to the buyers but that leaves me in a precarious position. If I point out something then I may be overstepping my bounds and if I leave out some other defect then I can be liable for neglecting an issue. If I never act as a home inspector then I cannot be held liable for missing something so I assume my job as Realtor (with an ABR designation although I do work with Sellers as well) and instruct all buyers to obtain the services of a licensed, REPUTABLE Home Inspector. This is the same with giving legal or financial advice.

By the way...this goes both ways! I have seen Home Inspectors kill deals by spewing quotes for repairs when they are not doing the work! I recently had a home inspector state that a bulkhead replacement was going to be $75,000+, when we got estimates (from licensed companies that only do bulkhead work) the work was only $45,000. Yes he killed the deal because the buyer got scared. It happens all the time when they try to quote for new roofs, plumbing, etc. If they are not doing the work they should not be quoting (or even estimating) the cost to repair.

I also take issue with the "nearing the end of it's useful life" statement that is found in many reports. Just because something may be old, does not mean that the Seller needs to be almost forced to replace. Who ever said that the Buyer could dictate things to be replaced when they are still structurally sound and in good working order? Older homes get listed for sale all the time with a 20 year old roof, the list price (or negotiated sale price) probably takes that into consideration. I guess it all comes down to what side of the fence you ar on... Buyer/Seller, Realtor/Home Inspector.

One last thing before I leave my soapbox...I have seen Home Inspectors miss things as well...it is human nature to make mistakes but at who's expense?

Kathy

My job as a buyer's agent is to put a buyer in a home to see if it fits their needs. While I am obligated to let them know pertinent information to the negotiation of a sale, i.e., days on market, competition in the area, how many times (if any) has the property been reduced, it the home inspector's job to locate any defects and anything a home buyer should need for the upkeep of the home.

Any obvious flaws, a seller will notice, i.e., water in the basement, cracked windows, etc. I will always go back to my seller's disclosure which the buyer should thoroughly review before looking at a home. I stay away from giving my opinion with regard to home inspection issues as I am not the expert nor do I claim to be.

While I'm sure you have worked with some "newer" agents, they are probably just learning the ropes. There is a learning curve involved here. However some agents, like myself, clearly can see and are well aware of issues, but we let the home inspector do their job. That's what they get paid the big bucks for! lol!

Lenn, can't wait to read your blog on this!!

Lenn's post is up...

I think that this misconception is common. Many people believe that a Realtor should know EVERYTHING about houses. I had a plumber angry with me because I didn't know that a house under contract in my neighborhood has a special kind of septic system that required a pump different from other systems. He said, "You should have known - - you live 3 houses away". Hey buddy, I don't know how MY septic system works. I certainly don't know anything about my neighbor's system.

Many people believe that we should be roofers, plumbers, family councelors, attorneys, financial advisors, electricians, water drainage specialists, marraige councelors, phycics, and the list could go on.

I feel sorry for Glen, being beat up like this. Hey Glen, look at this as an oppurtunity to learn.

Based on past transactions, and their respective home inspections, there are times when I can identify a problem upfront to the buyer. However, ultimately only a home inspector can give an expert opinion on the matter.

Wow, this is interesting

Man all of this is mind boggling---may inspire a post of my own:) I think both sides have some good points, but both seem to be missing how much we have in common---hopefully the best interest of the buyer.

Is Charles the first home inspector that showed up? Or at least the first home inspector that commented?

Maureen----always willing to stick my neck out:) I think both sides have a lot to learn from and about each other.

Glen, All I can say is that you're painting all real estate agents with a pretty broad brush. Since probably 99% of us don't belong to NAEBA (my estimate), why would you reference their standards of practice? You make it sound like the buyer is only your client. They were a client of the agent long before they contacted a home inspector.

Most agents I know do give a cursory evaluation of the condition of the property and recommend a price based on that. Beyond that, the liability is far too great for an agent. Rich

For some strange reason I actually like the abuse. All of the comments are greatly appreciated and I judge Lenn Harley to be a Real Estate expert.

All I am trying to state is that shouldn't a Buyer Agent have some training in house defects and help weed out the poor choices.

If the client wants a fixer-upper that would meet the target property profile and is priced accordingly that is fine. But if they are led to believe the fixer-upper is a turn-key that is where I have a concern.

By all means, the Buyer Agent is not performing a home inspection, just offering guidance that this house appears to have issues that the client should be aware of.

I know all about liability. The best way to avoid liability is to be honest, sincere and educated.

Glen, honesty, sincerity and education, won't deflect a lawsuit.

An agent I know... stated to her client when asked "yes, the basement looks dry to me" (truth, honest and sincere).

and when they got water, the following spring... the buyer sued everyone in sight, including the agent.... and the reason the agent lost the lawsuit, was because the court determined that in stating "the basement looks dry to me", that she was behaving as an inspector, and the buyer had a reasonable expectation to think that since the agent had seen many a dry basement, that she'd be in a position to know.

the only correct response, as far as the court, and her insurance company are concerned, in answering that question in the future is: "That's a good question for your inspector".

We are. unfortunately, a highly litigeous society.

Maureen, it looks like Charles was the first home inspector, but not the last.

I find myself agreeing more with the comments of the agents, rather than the author. Home inspectors are home inspectors, and licensed in many states for a reason. Agents are not home inspectors. Home inspectors are not agents.

In Kentucky, the home inspector represents the client (usually the buyer) as an independent, third party consultant. The inspector does not favor the buyer or the seller with regard to the inspection.

An agent has a different contractual arrangement with the buyer, in that the agent is an agent for the buyer -- not an independent third party consultant.

I agree with Charles that both agents and inspectors have one thing in common: the buyer.

Hi Glen, I'm with those who want to see an arms length between an agent and a licensed home inspector.

Boy, this was a brave post! The many opinions expressed here show just how fine a line a Buyer's agent must walk. I can understand the point that Glen is trying to make, but I would point out that if a Buyer's agent were to be "Trained" in home inspection skills, the resulting liability would probably make it untenable to act in that capacity.

I certainly get enough email from CT Association of Realtors reminding me of laws, of law suits, etc. I am not going to stick my neck out and say a word. This is for the home inspector. I may look at something and say, we need to make sure we ask the inspector about this. I am a realtor, a good one, and I don't put my clients at risk, nor myself.

I don't answer quesitons meant for the home inspector, nor for the septic inspector, and I pray they don't answer questions meant for me!

Glen - if we were required to know THAT much detail about home inspecting, then we should also be qualified lenders, title attorneys, appraisers, surveyors and more. But we can't. That's your job and why we defer to you guys.

Realtors and buyer agents are not home inspectors -- home inspections are a different animal altogether.

Glen,

I understand your point, but you are speaking from the perspective of inside knowledge. What is obvious to you and me is probably not so apparent to some one else. Hey that's what we get paid to do, find the un-obvious. But there are clearly obvious defects that you would expect a real estate professional to notice.

After reading through the agents response I think if they were to "get trained" they would be expected to some degree be home inspectors. No doubt that would heap a lot of liability onto their shoulders. There's a fine line we all walk, agents and inspectors. If we step over it can get us into trouble.

I believe the bottom line here is as professionals in the real estate world we have our clients interests first above all else. And I think that's what I'm hearing from everyone.

OK I was a homebuilder, built over 250 homes, often find that I know as much or more about the homes than the inspectors, of course I'm not pulling out screwdrivers and tools when showing a home. I use my expertise to advise the buyer who to have inspect the home. If I see something that might be structural in nature, I suggest a structural engineer and or inspector who has a Structural Engineering Degree/license, bad roof a roofer, etc. I do go to the inspections as an observer, if I see an inspector missing things I would diplomatically discuss them. I'm not hired as an inspector, I can't deny my background as expertise, but the inspector() is/are being paid to do that job so let them do them

To answer your question, yes...all agents should have basic training on red flags in homes. You should be able to walk up and be able to tell a buyer..."hey the roof looks questionable to me, let's have a roofer come out and get a quote."

I don't crawl in crawl spaces or attics, but I know a concerning foundation crack when I see one...at least enough to suggest we have a foundation contractor come out and give the thumbs up or down on it.

Do I inspect homes. No...not even close. In Oregon home inspectors are licensed with the Construction Contractor's Board. Do I walk into a home and notice the crumbling chimney, the bulging and cracked foundation wall, or the water stains on the ceiling? Yes.

Agents should be able to point out the obvious and suggest further inspection.

As several others have mentioned, the liability is the problem. While an agent may be OK pointing out potential problems that would noted while doing a reasonably competent visual inspection we shouldn't be experts in home inspections. I can imagine an agent being questioned in court by a very smart lawyer, "If you were expert enough to notice this defect and this other defect then why did you miss this construction defect Mr. Realtor?"

The simple answer is to tell all of your buyers that they need to have a home inspection. Pretty simple process. If the agent tells their client that they need to have a home inspection, then you have reduced your liability from that perspective.

Too many times over the years, I have seen agents with blinders on that just don't want to see what is wrong with a home.

Not only have I had some education on the subject but I've also bought and rehabbed older property. Done a lot of fun things like leveling foundations, all new plumbing, and a total rewire.

I also helped a friend build a two story home from the ground up over the course of a year and a half.

Getting out there and doing is always the best way to learn

Sometimes the buyer just doesn't want to listen. Funny you should mention a car salesman. I recently heard a story it goes like this. My uncle is a car salesman and he had a client call about a car. My uncle told him it was junk and going to scrape. After 20 minutes on the phone the buyer still was inquiring about the car. Makes one think doesn't it. I also believe there are many buyers who would love a home and even with the recent decline in prices the buyers don't see the forest through the trees. They fall in love with cosmetics or location and not structural soundness. That's why we need you to open their eyes.

So what if they want to buy a FIXER . . . a bank REPO has a "as is, where is" clause. Buyers buy these types of properties, crumbling fireplace AND ALL!

The home inspection might not have anything to do with the present condition of the home -- which might be a piece of crap . . . and a "genuine buyer's agent" (whatever the heck that is) has a client who wants to know what the defects are. Of course, they will want a report. That's one way they can remember the condition of the property. But, they still want the home inspected -- and WHY is really none of your business. Just shut up and do your job. The inspection report MAY be used to negotiate repairs, conversely it MAY not on a REO, short sale, etc. property. As a PROUD member of the National Association of Exclusive Buyer Agents, we can evaluate . . . and I can say, in my evaluation, "Gee this is a piece of crap," but by CLIENTS want to rehab it.

I'm also a proud member of the National Association of Realtors(r):

Article 2

Realtors^® shall avoid exaggeration, misrepresentation, or concealment of pertinent facts relating to the property or the transaction. Realtors^® shall not, however, be obligated to discover latent defects in the property, to advise on matters outside the scope of their real estate license, or to disclose facts which are confidential under the scope of agency or non-agency relationships as defined by state law. (Amended 1/00)

• Standard of Practice 2-1

Realtors^® shall only be obligated to discover and disclose adverse factors reasonably apparent to someone with expertise in those areas required by their real estate licensing authority. Article 2 does not impose upon the Realtor^® the obligation of expertise in other professional or technical disciplines. (Amended 1/96)

Hmmmm . . . DUDE . . . I'm NOT an Electrician, an HVAC contractor, a mold expert . . . I can tell the furnace was 1979 -- the year the house was built. SO WHAT? I point it out.

My real estate licensing authority (The Real Estate Commission) frowns on real estate agents who like to play "Home Inspector"

I tell my clients that if I see the window is cracked -- and they see it too, they're not blind -- I don't bring it up in the initial offer to purchase.

Why? You tell me Mr. Know It All!

[Because I WANT the home inspector to document that condition, and ALL the other conditions they're going to find. If I put only one (noticeable) defect, i.e., the broken window pane in to the contract to purchase, and then while we're in the inspection contingency, the sellers could very well say, "Hey, WE DID negotiate repairs. You got the window pane fixed." And my clients are left revoking the purchase, or moving in with defects that were found AFTER the accepted offer . . ."

I'm NOT a: Land Surveyor, Tax Assessor, Geologist, Ground Water Tester, Septic Tank Inspector, Mold/Mildew Re-mediator, Sewer Line Scope Inspector, Pest and Dry Rot inspector. I don't decommission Oil Tanks either, and I don't test for oil leaks under the EPA guidelines of X/PSI . . . If I believe that the property need these types of inspections -- and trust me, not even in Jersey do you have the qualifications to perform all these due diligence inspections (should they be warranted), I know EXACTLY who to call, and how to protect my clients. I've had radon tests performed, well water . . . and NONE of these were done on the normal inspection, by the run of the mill inspector such as yourself.

Do us all a favor . . . and STOP playing Realtor(r). More importantly, STOP telling ME how to do my job! I don't tell you if the electric panel is double-lugged, or the circuits aren't grounded. I'm NOT an inspector.

Glen, I have sold my share of total dumps to buyer clients, and when I do it's always with a good home inspector to tell them exactly how big of a dump it is. I don't pretend to know everything about structures, wiring and plumbing, but I do have a bunch of good anal compulsive house nerds in my I-Phone who do. And there are people who really want to buy dumps and transform them.

Glen, no way would I take over your job as an inspector.

I am a Realtor, I can advice on comps, location etc..

But defects in a home is not my job.

Most agents if they have been in sales for more than a few years know something about construction. I have done rehabs, but i still don't tell buyers what home is better. I might just point out to the abvious ( like ) the roof is leaking.... but I will not tell them if it needs to be replaced or repaired sicne I am not going on to roof to look or go in the attic ... big difference. I don't look for hidden defects.. .that is your job.

I do not present myself as an architect or inspector (even though licensing is easy in Florida) nor give an opinion other than what is visible to the client as to the condition of a property. All is contingent on an inspection by a competent professional inspector.

We have a two-page disclaimer telling our buyers all the things that we are NOT... plus if buyer's agents had all of that knowledge, home inspectors would be out of a job!?

I know a few things about homeconstruction... but I'm not an inspector and it is a bad idea for me to act like one. Further, I make sure that my buyers understand that even if they know a thing or three about home construction that they should still get an inspector.

Glen, I too have to respectfully disagree. I agree with Lenn. Buyer's agents are NOT inspectors. We are there to evaluate how the house works for our clients, not to evaluate whether or not there are defects. Just because it's obvious to you doesn't mean it would be obvious to us. Isn't that why our buyers get an inspection?

I am still curious - what are the major defects that you feel Realtors should know about?

Wow I think you probably have been raked enough by now. So I want go there, I think people assume the Realtor knows or should know everything. That's why we get blamed for a lot that we don't do ie delayed closings, inspection failures after the closing etc.

Glen:

I defer to the comments made by Alan May (Elvis) of Coldwell Banker, because I think he most accurately made the case. We do need to have an education, credentials, ABR and whatever additional training we can get our hands on. However, even with training and experience, we have to walk a fine line when talking about the condition of a property, just as we have to do with giving out legal advice. For a real estate transaction to be successfully completed, it takes a team of professionals - a listing broker, buyer broker, attorney, lender and a home inspector, and we all have to do our jobs and know when not to cross the line.

Best regards,

Claudette

Okay Glen, I was actually starting to feel sorry for you getting all this flack and bad press. That is until I read your response. I still don't think you understand agency. When you state:

"By all means, the Buyer Agent is not performing a home inspection, just offering guidance that this house appears to have issues that the client should be aware of.

"I know all about liability. The best way to avoid liability is to be honest, sincere and educated."

I know that you just don't understand even after all of these posts above me. I have a great idea! Instead of having "Genuine Buyer's Agents" take "required training courses" why don't you see if you can take an agency course! I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I think it's very important for you to understand since you're the one that brought the discussion to the forefront.

Car salesmen sell cars, they do not evaluate the cars conditon. The mechanic evaluates the condition of the car. A real estate agent sells homes, they do not evaluate homes condition. The home inspector evaluates the homes condition. If a real estate agent was an inspector too then you would be out of a job. Thats my take.

MAR

I respectfully refrain from offering professional advice that is outside the scope of my expertise. Unless you are accompanying the agents you are decrying, I really don't see how you leap to the conclusion as to what and what is not said between agent and client, but that is beside the point. Visible signs of damage/defect, sure, I'll point them out. What I won't do, however, is offer as opinion of fact whether something is a material matter or cosmetic one, even if I believe I know the answer. There is such a thing as knowing enough to get you and your clients in trouble with misguided "expertise." No amount of competency courses will make me an expert in your arena. I would need to perform your job on a daily basis to earn that distinction. A six week course on structural defects does not an expert make, so I will not practice my puffed up general contractor routine on my clients. That is what the due dilligence period is all about. That is what you are all about, frankly. We wear many hats during the course of a transaction. Community expert, product specialist, appraiser, negotiator, contract law specialist (in many areas), quasi-home inspector, transaction coordinator, finance expert, marriage counselor (you wouldn't laugh if you walked in our shoes for any period of time) ... and on and on and on. It is not feasible to expect an agent to hold more than surface competency in the arenas that are not germain to the actual selling of Real Estate. That is not good for anyone's interest. Not the overwhelmed agent's, the buyer's, the seller whose home may be unfairly stigmatized by a non-professional evaluation, and finally, the home inspector who is out of work as his/her specialized skill set is marginalized by increased responsibility of the agent.

Most agents do understand the big red flags, but relying on us to be anything other than an extra set of eyes is dangerous.

Okay, let me try again. When I started home inspections in 1989, I don't believe the Buyer Agent had yet to be invented. However, I did not research this and criticize me if I am incorrect.

In fact, most real estate agents did not recommend home inspections in 1989 and I was told that the sales agent would simply look the house over for the buyer. It should also be noted that when I marketed home inspections early on, in more than one real estate office I was informed that no buyer had ever requested a home inspection. It was further stated, that there was no need for that type of service.

In the last five to ten years, the Buyer Agent has been created. My concern is that certain Buyer Agents will apparently not even consider looking the house over as we have plenty of home inspectors to shoulder that liability.

I have inspected a house where the rear exterior basement foundation wall had sunken almost six inches leaving a giant gap under the siding. The Buyer Agent and buyer never saw this because nobody walked the rear of the house. However, at the time of the home inspection when both parties saw the rear of the property they understood that the foundation had a major defect. Shouldn't the Buyer Agent be expected to fully walk and view the house?

I know a Buyer Agent that does not do steps and will not view the basement or second floor. Is that okay? I am not sure.

In today's market there are considerable first time buyers that have never owned a home. Ninety-nine percent of the agents should have a higher level of expertise. Nowhere in my post do I suggest that any sales agent undertake a home inspection. That is the last thing anybody wants.

My bottom line is the level of inconsistency that I have observed from Buyer Agents is tremendous. Many provide good advice, excellent guidance and are not afraid to look at a house. A few others unfortunately are clueless and have nothing better to offer than unlocking the door.

Why not have courses for Buyer Agents to increase knowledge of houses and house defects. Is that so wrong?

If I was a consumer searching for a Buyer Agent, I would look for an agent that "knows houses". In addition, I would also want an agent that is my advocate and will efficiently guide me to the objective. But then again that is just my opinion.

I remember kinda sorta when "buyers agents" were invented in my market.... I also remember when "home inspectors" were invent Frankenstein's monster a great invention ed.

I wrote about it... not what I remember personally about the invention of "buyers agent" because when buyers agency became common in my market and what it means in my state really is probably not that great a conversation...

Personally I think on the job training is the best way for most agents to learn about "condition."

Glen...Sorry, but you're not going to win this argument...We as Realtors/Agents cannot express more than an opinion about a problem...Simply put, it's not our job, it's yours...Do it and get paid for it!

MAR

Glen, I guess being right doesn't always let you win. Pity.

I skimmed through the posts but could have stopped at the first two comments.

Kevin Cavanaugh commented first and got it right on. Then Lenn Harley got it wrong.

Kevin uses the knowledge he has to help buyers avoid homes with defects that he can identify and he has indicated that he has the background to be able to do that.

Lynn on the other hand says: "We are not home inspectors. I thought that was your job." The reason she says that is because she does not have the knowledge to do the job that Kevin can do and she defends that lack of knowledge by saying it is not her job.

If I were a buyer choosing between Kevin and Lynn - I'd go with Kevin every single time.

It is true that most agents that 'claim' to be buyer agents don't have the knowledge to identify defects that should be obvious to anyone with even minimal knowledge. The sad fact is that most Realtors (let alone those that call themselves buyer agents) know very little about the make up of a house. It is even sadder that most have no inclination to learn.

Kevin, I hope you include your knowledge of construction in your marketing - as well as a disclaimer. My disclaimer goes along the lines of: If I find 5 defects your home inspector will likely find at least 20 more.

Although I will sometimes say positive things about a house they have to be very obvious. Making unconditional statement like: "The basement seems dry to me.", is just asking for trouble. I may say, this basement has recently had a french drain installed but I bet they didn't fix the grading outside that is possibly a part of the problem they are trying to fix.

Go ahead, Lynn, keep getting your clients into contracts only to let them spend a few hundred dollars learning something that a KNOWLEDGEABLE buyer agent should have been able to tell them up front.

Paul Howard

Lynn who?

Im with Maureen on this one...Lynn who??

In FL, sellers are required to complete a seller's disclosure that tells everything that they are aware of that is wrong with the house and repairs and renovations they have completed during their ownership. This should alert buyers to any flaws, obvious and otherwise. It also should cover the age of roof, HVAC, appliances, etc.

Since we are in fact a very litigious society, agents need to be careful about giving advice and opinions, especially in areas in which they are not experts. I personally like to be informed and understand at least the basics of construction, but don't think the buyer should proceed with a sale based on an agent's opinion of the condition of a property.

I don't think that a buyer needs to hear, "but I bet they didn't fix the grading outside..." without a caveat: "here's an opinion, but as I'm not an expert, this MUST be addressed by a home inspector." Buyers don't care what we might "bet"- and neither do their lawyers- without the input of someone who specializes in home inspection issues, any words that might be offered are empty (and subject to litigation). A knowledgable buyers agent understands that the obligation to the buyer is to provide the most comprehensive info on their property of interest- no ego thing ("I'm so smart- here's what I BET")- leave areas of specialization to the specialists. Real estate isn't a guessing game.

The proper designation can then separate the imposters from the genuine Buyer Agent. The professional Buyer Agent Associations should also require certain minimum education requirements to establish credibility.

This is an interesting observation from an Inspector since the Instructor at a local board of realtors MCE Legal Class class said.. in the matter of attending an inspection to NOT EVEN BE AT THE INSPECTION. IT IS NOT OUR JOB to determine CONDITION of a PROPERTY.

Paul I agree that agents should have training on some basic red flags. In fact it is one of our continuing education classes in Oregon

I find it highly concerning that you would tell a buyer "I'll bet..." I would never tell a buyer that if I see 5 defects that the home inspector will likely find 20. It may be true it may not be. Everything is in how you say it.

In Oregon home inspectors are licensed contractors. They are bonded and insured. If you wanted to give home inspection advice in Oregon, you might find yourself talking to the CCB about being unlicensed.

All homes have defects and it is our job to point out the obvious ones to buyers before offers, and for the home inspectors to note everything after. The point of a home inspection is not to find a defect free home, but for buyers to satisfy themselves with the defects that do exist.

The only good thing about this perspective is that it inspired perspective about agency, responsibility and the flexing of finger tips, which is why it was probably featured.

You know..

Inspectors like to tell the buyers how "to deal with repairs" as in negotiate.

That's OUR job.

Nice argument, but you have no case.

MAR

Melina said "Paul I agree that agents should have training on some basic red flags. In fact it is one of our continuing education classes in Oregon"

As a required course? We were not required to get anything about construction, red flags, condition, defects when I was newly licensed and I don't think there is anything required for new agents in OH now. There are opportunities!!! There are always opportunities.

Our home inspectors are not licensed in our state. It failed again in 2008....

Melina Said;

"The point of a home inspection is not to find a defect free home, but for buyers to satisfy themselves with the defects that do exist."

I think that is perfectly said. Home inspectors are there to educate and inform the buyer. They then can decide if they are willing to accept the condition of the home and move forward with the purchase or keeping looking for houses.

MAR

So how about this:

Should a buyer's rep be able to tell a buyer if a home has hot water heat or forced air heat?

Should the same buyer's rep be able to tell a buyer what some of the differences are in terms of quality of living?

Should a buyer's rep. be able to tell a buyer if a roof valley is showing a lot of wear or if the shingles are curled?

Lets give some examples and our views on earch.

And to be correct lets use the term "buyer's rep.", because in many markets licensees are no longer acting as buyer's agents. (In our market most are designated buyer's agents, not buyer's agents.)

Ha ha, maybe you should sit in on a Buyer Agency class and learn the meaning of "Buyers Agent" genuine of not. Realtors are licensed to sell real estate, Inspectors are licensed to inspect. I am a Realtor. I do not claim to be an Accountant, Attorney or Inspector. As a Buyers Agent I help my client to locate the home that suites their needs and put them together with the proper trained professionals to represent them completely and fulfill my fiduciary duty to the best of my ability. If my client has a concern that I do not know the answer to I help them to find it.

And if the house that they want to buy appears to be absolutely perfect, I still recommend that they get a home inspection to be sure of what they are purchasing. I would imagine that the Home Inspectors would not be near as busy as they are if the Realtors weren't out there making these recommendations.

And of course there is also Limited Consentual Dual Agency, Sub Agency and Transaction Broker. Are you always sure that it is a "Buyers Agent"?

Soooo, Glen...it truly is so nice to meet you! :-) Welcome to the Rain!

Would you like to come down to Sweet Home Alabama and do an inspection for one of my clients? :O)

You are gonna do just fine here! Look how quickly you got a Feature! It took me 101 posts to get one!

MAR

Debbie,

In our market almost half of buyers start with designated buyer agency, then they get the "switch" to disclosed dual agency.

Do you think that they are disclosed about that probability up-front?

Obviously not, or they wouldn't do it.

So to answer your question. Most in our market are not buyer's agents.

APR

Maybe we need to define "evaluate."

Things are so litigious out here that even the extremely smart agents who have been in business for 30 years will feign ignorance when it comes to "evaluating" a home, or at least they will say, "We'll let Russel tell us about that when he does the home inspection."

MAY

I'm new here and I found this an interesting discussion.

As an Exclusive Buyer Agent I certainly am not a home inspector, but I am always there when the home inspection is being done. I follow the inspector around and he's happy to show me the issues he finds. This is a great way to learn and then I can better help my clients evaulate the property and determine any repairs to be made.

With each succeeding property I learn more and can spot trouble before the inspection so my clients can decide to proceed with an offer or not, and negotiate accordingly. A basic working knowledge of the flaws a property has does not an inspector make!

I think the point that Glen has tried to make is that agents need to have a BASIC level of knowledge and actually LOOK at the house...really look at it in it's entirety - and evaluate it based on the clients NEEDS. Doing this is not putting an agent into the role of inspector. Sinking foundation at the back and the agent never looked at the back??? Well, that is just not keeping the client's best interests at heart and is taking the easy way out.

As a matter of fact, I very bad experience with a dual agent who was "unaware" of a leaking diesel line in the home which led to an abandoned unground tank outside the home. There was a strong smell of fuel in the home and she insisted it was cleaning chemicals. That is why I vowed to never use anything but an Exclusive Buyer Agent when I bought property again. After my great experience with an EBA, I decided to become one myself so I could really advocate and help buyers.

JUL

With regards to buyer's agents and home inspections. Having been a real estate professional for nearly 16 years and major involvement in Professional Standards for 4 associations including my state association, I know first hand about REALTOR(R)standard of care, liability issues, and so forth. While a good agent should have a general working knowledge of tax/ legal implications of real esate, buildling codes etc. Unless one is an attorney, CPA, contractor etc, we are not qualifed to make opinions in this area. Once one makes an opinion we are considered an expert. This is why we the building inspector is hired, to inspect the property, report their findings, and if neccessary refer the buyer to the appropriate professional for further evaluation. How many times have we seen building inspectors, lenders, escrow people open their mouths and kill a deal because they have made a remark to a buyer when it was not appropriate. The bottom line is the inspector should do their job and we as agents should not make unqualified opinions when commenting on the condition of a property.

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