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Are Upfront Mortgage Brokers Irrelevant?

By
Mortgage and Lending with Prosperity Home Mortgage NMLS#386911

I read a blog post today on Cyberhomes blog (an excellent website and blog, by the way). It's latest post is titled "Searching For Good Mortgage Brokers" .

In the post, the author writes, "For people who worry about finding a reputable broker (e.g., one who won't steer you into a loan with hidden exorbitant fees so he can collect higher compensation), there's a website you can try." The website is called upfrontmortgagebrokers.com.

This is the website for the Upfront Mortgage Brokers Association (UMBA). The home page of the website states that it was "founded for consumer advocacy" a noble goal. It also states on the home page "Most professional associations are formed to further the interests of the individuals forming the organization. Members of UMBA are mortgage brokers whose interests are fully aligned with those of the consumer.

Association members believe that, in serving the public interest, they will be working toward a better profession, which, ultimately, will further their professional/personal goals."

I am not a member of this association. This is not an attack on the association or its members. My question is whether this association is relevant any more.

Here is why I ask this question: On the home page of their website there is a link for consumers to click on that says "Why Choose An Upfront Mortgage Broker". On this PDF, it states "the key element of the UMB commitment is the requirement that the fee for the UMB's services be negotiated and established at the start of the mortgage process."

The reason I ask if UMB's are relevant is because of the amount of disclosure that we have to do as mortgage brokers in terms of our compensation.

First, we have to send out a Good Faith Estimate with our fees disclosed. We also have to have separate forms signed that disclose our fees again before we can submit our files to our lending partners. I think by the time we have submitted the file, our clients are very clear in terms or our compensation.

Maybe I am missing something. Again, this is not an attack on upfront mortgage brokers. But it seems to me that the government and our lenders have taken care of consumers in terms of mortgage broker fee disclosures.

Here's a question for you for you mortgage bankers - how come there is no upfront mortgage banker association? Mortgage bankers don't have to disclose how much they are compensated.

I typed in "upfrontmortgagebankers.com" into my browser. It said "sorry page not found".

As a service to my mortgage banking buddies, I went on register.com to see if upfrontmortgagebankers.com is available. It is! Here's your chance to bring full disclosure to consumers!

Contact Me

Burlingame Mortgage

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Would you like to talk to Phil - call or text (650) 222-0386 
Phil Caulfield NMLS #386911 has been helping people obtain mortgages since 1985. The views, articles, postings, and information listed at this website are personal and do not necessarily represent the opinion or the position of  Prosperity Home Mortgage LLC.

 

 

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Phil Caulfield
Prosperity Home Mortgage - San Carlos, CA
I Get The Loans Done That The Big Banks Don't!

Chris - transparency seems to be the latest buzzword that everybody wants to focus on. On the surface it seems like a good thing, but carried out to the extreme I think it leads to inaction from having too much information to digest. Suppose a real estate agent, spent $3.00 on a gallon of gas to drive his clients to  show them a house. His clients love the house and write an offer. But before writing the offer the agent has to present a P and L to his clients showing how much has been spent by the agent in order to get them to this point of writing the offer, in the spirit of true transparency. They then have to negotiate how much commission the agent deserves, so there are two negotiations; one on commission, and one with the seller. Sounds kind of silly doesn't it? But shouldn't that be done in the spirit of true "transparency".

I don't think the playing field is level right now - mortgage brokers have to disclose their compensation, bankers and mortgage bankers disclose the fees upfront, but not how much they get of the totla fees paid. Hopefully it will become a level playing field. However, all this focus on how much someone is making has gotten away from the ultimate bottom line: satisfying clients.

Aug 15, 2009 11:18 AM
Phil Caulfield
Prosperity Home Mortgage - San Carlos, CA
I Get The Loans Done That The Big Banks Don't!

Esko - exactly my point, we have to disclose our fees upfront, so what is the benefit now of being part of the Upfront Mortgage Brokers Association? This is truly a question, not a condemnation of the UMBA - maybe a member can answer this question for us.

Aug 15, 2009 11:21 AM
Phil Caulfield
Prosperity Home Mortgage - San Carlos, CA
I Get The Loans Done That The Big Banks Don't!

Tom - If the UMBA offers some other way to differentiate its members other than being "upfront" with their compensation, maybe it is not just another way to drain money from originators. I just do not know what that is - maybe someone can let us know.

Aug 15, 2009 11:27 AM
Phil Caulfield
Prosperity Home Mortgage - San Carlos, CA
I Get The Loans Done That The Big Banks Don't!

William - thanks for the comment. I think Wall Street will escape this mess with just a scratch - but I think the firms that devised many of the programs that led to the mess we are in deserve as much of the blame as the originators that sold their programs.

Aug 15, 2009 11:31 AM
Phil Caulfield
Prosperity Home Mortgage - San Carlos, CA
I Get The Loans Done That The Big Banks Don't!

Joe - I would love to hear what they had to say at Inman on the mortgage broker model.

Aug 15, 2009 11:32 AM
Phil Caulfield
Prosperity Home Mortgage - San Carlos, CA
I Get The Loans Done That The Big Banks Don't!

Jamie - thanks for the comment. Yes we have our government and they are here to help!

Aug 15, 2009 11:36 AM
Phil Caulfield
Prosperity Home Mortgage - San Carlos, CA
I Get The Loans Done That The Big Banks Don't!

Lane and Carol - thanks for the comments!

Aug 15, 2009 11:37 AM
Phil Caulfield
Prosperity Home Mortgage - San Carlos, CA
I Get The Loans Done That The Big Banks Don't!

Christianne - I don't agree with you about liking the three day period. I disclose the costs before taking the client's application. Waiting three days slows down the process. The less time in the process, the less time we have for something to go wrong - that's the way it usually has worked for me.

Aug 15, 2009 11:40 AM
Phil Caulfield
Prosperity Home Mortgage - San Carlos, CA
I Get The Loans Done That The Big Banks Don't!

Donne - I agree with you - the banks and mortgage bankers will most likely fight back if they are forced to disclose SRP. It should be interesting to watch. If they do fight, it will probably help us mortgage brokers!

Aug 15, 2009 11:43 AM
Jeff Belonger
Social Media - Infinity Home Mortgage Company, Inc - Cherry Hill, NJ
The FHA Expert - FHA Loans - FHA mortgages - USDA loans - VA Loans

Phil....   hhhhhmmmm...  here is my honest take on Upfront Mortgage Brokers...  as much as I respect Jack Guttentag, I don't like the name of this organization for a main reason.Besides, as Tom Burris mentioned, it costs the loan officer to be an upfront mortgage broker.  I have taken a few deals away from upfront mortgage brokers.  My reason is, just because they tell you or negotiate what they will charge you, not all of them are very good loan officers.  They just work for a fee. It's the same thing that many have tried to model after, when coming up with new online companies or those that write about this in blogs... what is it that they try and start or talk about?  Transparency.  They try to tell the consumer that they will show you the pricing.

The complaints from the borrowers that ended up going with me were that the loan officer that was an upfront mortgage broker either didn't explain certain procedures very well... where hard to reach (that they didn't return e-mails and or phone calls often), and that they didn't educate the borrower on specific options.

My main complaint to what I just mentioned...  I knew one guy that tried to sell a specific model to all lenders and the consumer.  For a full doc loan, the lender/loan officer could only make $3,000 total.  For no doc loans, $2,000. The problem with this is that service goes down hill. I am not an order taker and that is what the loan officer would become. My clients get a very fair deal which is a very good deal, but not the best deal. What they get is honesty upfront, that I won't bait and switch...  that educate them about the process, that I try to be very thorough, that I am easy to reach during the day, evenings, or weekends...  that I communicate very well, and that I have integrity.  Not saying that all upfront mortgage brokers won't give this kind of service, but I have more than you would think, that they don't. Like I said, I have taken more than my fair share of deals away from loan officers that were upfront mortgage brokers. I know this, because the borrowers told me one of the main reasons that they originally looked for them or went to them was because they would be cheaper. What do we say in the business world?  Cheaper is not always better.

Overall, I just think it's another way to make a borrower feel comfortable and that it could distract the borrower from seeing other red flags.

 

@ Donna.. I don't think I read anything that Phil stated that mortgage bankers must disclose YSP.

 

I read every comment... Someone else made a comment that stated there is something in the works, that even bankers will have to disclose YSP...  from what I heard, they are taking it a step further, to where the gov't wants to ban YSP period.  This would hurt buyers more and not help.

 

Phil...  I am not sure you read this, but I talked about the MDIA issue and my main concerns. I hope you don't mind this link.  MDIA issues and that it could delay the settlement.  I am also going to send this to a friend of mine who is an upfront mortgage broker and he will give you his honest opinion about this.  thanks

jeff belonger

Aug 15, 2009 11:51 AM
Damon Gettier
Damon Gettier & Associates, REALTORS- Roanoke Va Short Sale Expert - Roanoke, VA
Broker/Owner ABRM, GRI, CDPE

I don't have a problem with anyone making a fair profit.  I have never asked a service provider to lower their fees, even to make a deal work.  I do however have an issue with service providers that mislead the public.  I think that the lending side needs to be held responsible for their GFE's, advertised rates and Pre-Approval/Pre-Qual letters.  Seriously, either the people can buy or they can't.  This business isn't as hard as many would like to make it.

Aug 15, 2009 12:46 PM
Derik Tutt
Cranston, RI

I think Amerisave prides themselves on letting the client pick their rate. I think that is a cool aspect of that upfront mortgage lender. I'm not a big fan of YSP. Why not just give the person the lowest rate they qualify for? Why jack up rates? I know some brokers who took huge advantage over some folks behind all the YSP they wanted to receive.

Aug 15, 2009 07:42 PM
Moshe Cohen
Valuation Solutions - Morristown, NJ
PhD

I think that selling real estate and mortgage lending should be separated and made illegal. They do not serve the buyer.

Aug 15, 2009 11:16 PM
Jeff Belonger
Social Media - Infinity Home Mortgage Company, Inc - Cherry Hill, NJ
The FHA Expert - FHA Loans - FHA mortgages - USDA loans - VA Loans

 

@ Derik...  Phil, if you don't mind..  Who cares if AmeriSave lets their clients pick their own rates. Do you think mortgages is that easy?  Do you know how many mortgages don't close, even after the lender had 30 days to process the loan?  And it wasn't because of the higher rate and or fees, but because the loan officer basically screwed up. Forget about the changing industry. This happens more than it should, and it's because the loan officer doesn't know how to compute income, read credit, look for large deposits, or read a pay stub to find a specific loan, etc, etc.  These are things that could kill a deal. By offering the best rate doesn't always mean that the loan will close.

On another note, you stated this. "I'm not a big fan of YSP. Why not just give the person the lowest rate they qualify for?"

So are you telling me that you do every loan for free?  You said, why not just give the lowest rate that they qualify for. Sorry, but that statement alone sounds absurd and doesn't make sense. Like you didn't think it through. And you aren't a big fan of YSP?  So you would rather all of your clients pay more in points?

Derik.....  Please answer this question...Doesn't you and your company need to make a profit? If there was no YSP, that would mean that you would have to charge points no matter what.  And in many cases, people barely have enough for the downpayment. You can only try and get so much from the seller in seller help.  I am just trying to see your logic.  Let me give you a great example...

I am helping a client right now, to where I am giving them a lender credit of $3,000 to make the deal work, to lower his total costs out of pocket. I can only do this because of the YSP.   I just don't understand this coming from a loan officer. It scares me on how some think. I will now be writing about this in the next few days.

jeff belonger

Aug 16, 2009 03:02 AM
Donne Knudsen
Los Angeles & Ventura Counties in CA - Simi Valley, CA
CalState Realty Services

Phil - I'm with Jeff on this one.  Depending on what my clients individual needs are will determine whether they get a par rate and pay one point in origination or whether they pay a little higher rate so that I can cover their lender costs with YSP.

As long as we (LO's) are educating our clients on all of their options, whether it be origination points or YSP, our responsibility is to help our clients decide which option is best for them and their situation.  While some clients will prefer to pay points for a lower rate, others will prefer have some of their costs covered by their lender by paying YSP.  It's our job to help them decide which option is better for them.

Aug 16, 2009 04:54 AM
Phil Caulfield
Prosperity Home Mortgage - San Carlos, CA
I Get The Loans Done That The Big Banks Don't!

Jeff - I agree with your point that there is much more to choosing an originator than by their claim to being upfront with their fees. If they don't know how to package a file to get it approved, who cares if they are upfront?

I'm not sure where Derek is coming from in terms of not being a fan of YSP - suppose the best loan for the client is a no-point loan? How are we supposed to get paid?

Thanks for the comments.

Aug 16, 2009 06:02 AM
Phil Caulfield
Prosperity Home Mortgage - San Carlos, CA
I Get The Loans Done That The Big Banks Don't!

Damon - thanks for your comment from the real estate side of the business.

Aug 16, 2009 06:03 AM
Phil Caulfield
Prosperity Home Mortgage - San Carlos, CA
I Get The Loans Done That The Big Banks Don't!

Donne - thanks for the comment - I agree with you.

Aug 16, 2009 06:04 AM
Patrick Randles
Nova Home Loans - Tucson, AZ

I think this is just another marketing tool. Buyers are welocme to shop in order to get the best deal assuming everyone works in good faith. This is similar to how Saturn sells cars. One price. Ironically, Saturns margins were good because the consumer couldn't negotiate a better deal. If you want to be disclose your margins, that is up to you. Just because you have done this doesn't guarantee the client the best deal.

Aug 16, 2009 02:54 PM
Phil Caulfield
Prosperity Home Mortgage - San Carlos, CA
I Get The Loans Done That The Big Banks Don't!

Patrick - thanks for the comment. It seems to me all designations are marketing tools. My question is does this "marketing tool" mena anything any more since we have so much disclosure on how much we are compensated anyway?

Aug 17, 2009 04:45 AM