Legal Question: Don't Ask, Don't Tell?

Angela

Since there's appears to be legitimate debate over this situation, I would disclose the murder. 

Why take a chance with a new owner using this example as test litigation or speaking negatively of you to the media?

There is no concept resembling "don't ask - don't tell" in a residential real estate transaction. 

The consumer has a right to know and you have a duty to tell them. 

Aside from the legal issue, isn't there an ethical one here?   I don't think it needs to be in the marketing material, but I do believe it should be stated matter of factly in the property condition disclosure form in the comments section.  I agree with the earlier comment suggesting that a reference be provided to the police report, so the buyer and buyer's agent can get the facts and not be left to rely upon neighbor's gossip.

And what is that neighbor thinking... doesn't he/she realize that this gossip only brings down his/her own property value?  Maybe someone should mention that to her, and let her know that the information is being disclosed in an appropriate manner.

It's a toughie, but this is not a unique situation, and lots of people live in homes where crimes were committed at some point in their history.  Apparently, not everyone is scared away by the possibiity of ghosts in the attic.

 

Rob, no it wouldn't be found on a title search. You have to rely on your sellers to tell the truth.  If its not required in your state to be disclosed then the question may never come up. Here it is, and is on a form, so the subject comes up and like any other material fact or disclosure regarding their house, we trust them to tell the truth.. and we advise them to disclose, disclose, disclose.  A Realtor wouldn't know if no one told them, and they certainly wouldn't know if the seller themselves didn't know.  If it was a notorious crime however, I think as a professional in the area, you may be hard pressed to say you didn't know... should you have known would be the question in court.

In Alaska, they recently changed the law.  We only have to disclose deaths within one year.  However, in practice, I think violent deaths are usually disclosed (By the buyer's agent) because most of us, I believe, would really want to know.  I know I would.

 "I agree, it should be disclosed, but the DETAILS are rather unsettling. No one wants to hear that the house they want to buy was the torture chamber and eventual murder site of a small child." 

If it is disclosed by you the people will probably check into it anyway. That is if the word "murder" is used. I would go to  the library and look it up or go online, if I were looking at the house. I think the neighbor might be annoying but it seems one could not really say she is chasing people off as they obviously are not comfortable with the site. One way or another, they need to know. One could hardly sell such a notorias house without mentioning the history, without expecting a lawsuit. Lawyers could find good material here if someone bought and then claimed all types of related stress and trauma when they found out.

Here in Washington State, a death or murder is not required by law to be disclosed. That said the ethics involved are another issue. If someone asks if the death occurred in the house and you know about it you have to answer honestly. As to the neighbor telling potential buyers about the murder, I don't think there's anything you can do to stop that from happening.

I once had a buyer find out that there were two halfway houses on the street of his new home. He became furious at the sellers and their agent for not disclosing that fact. Luckily he didn't get mad at me, but then I had no knowledge of the situation. He talked to some of the neighbors about it and when he found out there had never been any problems in the neighborhood he decided to go ahead and purchased the house.

The sellers in his home or in a precarious situation, in the right situation for the right price someone will buy it.

I think Michael is right on.  Glad he lives in Bellingham.

AR is so cool, you can't read all the stuff in the magzines, but AR, read it blog to blog, thanks for your post!

My personal opinion is that if there is ever a question, disclosure is the better way to go.  Ask the seller to put herself in the buyers shoes.  Legally here in Colorado a murder does not need to be disclosed.

Ah, I can answer the "except by AIDS" part of the CA law.  That's federal fair housing act law.  AIDS falls under handicapped and cannot be discriminated against.

That being said, I can't speak for Kentucky, but in NC, on the surface, that is not material fact and need not be disclosed.  The CA law is blowing my mind.  I can't believe that deaths in the last 3 years must be disclosed.  I would imagine that law is more an exception than a rule across most states.

Rob, you still disclose the death, but due to anti-discrimination laws , in the case of AIDS the manner of death would not be disclosed.

I was under the impression it had to be disclosed.  But the neighbor running out to tell a prosective client as they come up to see the home is not the best way, IMO, for someone to find out. 

I guess I would rather a client at least see the home, see if it's something they really would like and then let them know about the history of the home.  The way you described it, this murder happened a while back?  It is a blemish for the property but if it's not something recent.   Maybe a new prospect will consider getting past that history if the home meets their needs?  The situation is a tough one. 

In Texas we must disclose any unnatural deaths on the property.  Fortunately we live in a small town with lower than average murder rate so we don't run into it much at all.  The neighborh probably can and will say what she wants to and I'm not sure how you could stop her.  You might try stopping by there and very nicely telling her that sensationalizing the murder may get an unoccupied house next door that could easily be used by vandals, druggies, etc... and would generally lower the value of her property. 

California has legal disclosure requirements, which you've read about above, but I think the issue is an ethical one. As an agent, you have a duty to disclose all "material facts" known about a property. Obviously this is a material fact. Why are some people so shady that they would try to cover such a fact up? There may be buyers or renters who will not mind and there will be many people who do mind. Everyone should be able to make an informed decision.

On a related issue, if people live in old homes, they can assume someone has probably died there at some time.

Regarding the issue of "stigmatized property," it appears that some states are saying that it is "unfair" to stigmatize the property by disclosing . . . when in reality, it IS stigmatized, but the buyers just don't get to know it. In some cultures this would be extremely important information to know. I personally want to know anything relevant about a property and I think a murder is plenty relevant (this gets into the realm of personal spiritual beliefs, Feng Shui issues, etc.)

If you are an agent, aware of any material fact, you have to disclose it, according to my understanding.

I would just pass it along as I heard it and then the buyers can do their due dilgence to find out details.

There are a few options. If you know the names of the previous owners, based on the story, search the obits at the paper, it should not be hard to determine where they lived. In this county you could, also, just check the assessor page and see if the people are listed as owners -- unless they were renters. Otherwise, the information is public record. The newspaper might not give addresses but if you took the article, your listing info, etc, to the local law enforcement they would be able to tell you if a murder took place. You might even get info just by doing some detailed google and yahoo searches on the names. Then, of course, you could just go knock on a neighbors door, someone who has been there a long time, and casually ask if they can tell you anything about the history of the house, without being too suggestive.