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One Step Forward for Healthcare... One Giant Leap Backwards for Women's Freedom of Choice.

By Karen Anne Stone

Real Estate Agent with New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County

November 08, 2009 05:10 AM

This morning as I was scanning the list of those who voted against the Health Care bill that was passed by the House yesterday, I saw that Dennis Kucinich voted against passage, I really wondered what the full story was behind his vote.

I am also very upset that the conservative bishops of the Catholic church chose to try and impose their religious beliefs upon the country by pressuring a group of conservative Democrats to vote against a woman's right to control her own body, and her own future... by inserting a major provision in the bill that was in a major way "Anti-Choice" for women.

This is just another example of insecure men wanting to continue controlling women, and another step by our country towards an American Taliban Theocracy. It appears that Conservative Americans, and conservative Iranians DO have quite a bit in common.

I do not fear any so-called "socialist agenda"... but I DO fear a country ruled and governed by the religious beliefs of one group of people. That is what Iran is, and that is what Saudi Arabia is. I do not want that for America. Conservative Americans... believe what you want... just don't force it on me !

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Lindsey Hasford

Edina Realty - Elk River, MN

Bringing you home...

Karen Anne - I am not an intelligent person by any means, but you posed a question about halfway through your comments stating that you wondered if human life truly began in the womb or after birth. I truly believe (and not by religious measure) that human life begins at conception. Having been pregnant twice (and loving every minute of it) I discovered some most amazing things. I have two beautiful boys that started on 'the inside' and on 'the inside' they had much the same personalities as they do now. I have a very shy boy and he would be so quiet on the inside when others were around.... and as soon as I was alone he would play and move. My other boy is quite active (always)... jumping off the back of the couch at age two, doing somersaults at age 1.... just all out busy. When he was on 'the inside' I would watch him play with his hands and feet - I loved seeing him move around. He would push his hands against my belly or his foot and I would push him back... it was so much fun. He's the same way today. Anyways..............

Nov 09, 2009 11:38 PM

Bob Willis

Berkshire Hathaway HomeServices California Properties - Orange, CA

Orange County & L.A. County Real Estate Agent

I am going to subscribe to all the smart, liberal women here. It's refreshing to read some common sense.

Nov 10, 2009 12:42 PM

David Helm

Helm Home Inspections - Bellingham, WA

Bellingham, Wa. Licensed Home Insp

I find it very interesting the number of people who are "anti-socialism". "Promoting the general welfare" is socialism. Having roads paid for by taxes is socialism. Having a public school system is socialism. The Veterans Administration is socialized healthcare. The Medicare that gives me healthcare is socialism. Fire protection is socialism. Police protection is socialism. Public utilities are socialism. We have had socialism almost from the beginning with this nation. Social Security is in trouble primarily because we don't tax everyone's income to pay for it. The measure of a great nation is how it takes care of its poorest people.

Nov 11, 2009 06:09 AM

Gene Mundt, IL/WI Mortgage Originator - FHA/VA/Conv/Jumbo/Portfolio/Refi

NMLS #216987, IL Lic. 031.0006220, WI Licensed. APMC NMLS #175656 - New Lenox, IL

708.921.6331 - 40+ yrs experience

Karen Anne: What an amazing post and group of comments! And ... as you pointed out... done with such civility. You can be proud that you started and lead this discussion.

After reading all of the commentary in its' entirety ... I think the best comment was the one made in #92 by David Helm, as it showed such compassion and truth. "The measure of a great nation is how it takes care of its poorest people." Our nation's measurement is still pending ...

Gene

Nov 11, 2009 05:29 PM

Linda Mae Croom

Topock, AZ

(928) 768-3040

Karen Anne,

I have to jump back in and agree with Gene just above... David in #92 speaks so simply yet profoundly...

If only all in America thought as he just spoke what a Great Country this would be... But unfortunately Greed has over taken most people that the sentiment " I am my brother's keeper" has almost ceased to exist.

Perhaps the Right would rather we did away with taxation...

Hence no more public schools, or police, or fire departments, or Military, or VA, or Medicare, or Welfare, or Pell grants, or Scholarships, or Food stamps for the Starving, or emergency room treatment, or Social Security, and oh my God just about NO MORE ANYTHING...........

If you are going to do away with the Health Care Reform Bill because it is a Socialist Agenda.... I think we must do away with all Socialized forms of government...

Isn't this like people who read the Bible with scissors in hand picking and choosing which Words they agree with? Now they want to pick and choose what government programs they agree to pay taxes for........because in the end this is why most are against the Bill.

Nov 12, 2009 06:21 AM

Bob Willis

Berkshire Hathaway HomeServices California Properties - Orange, CA

Orange County & L.A. County Real Estate Agent

Linda, Yes, the far right wants to do away with all taxes, and consequently, all public schools, all public roads, fire departments, traffic signals, Medicare, Welfare, the military, or anything else that taxes pay for.

Nov 12, 2009 06:27 AM

Karen Anne Stone

New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County - Fort Worth, TX

Fort Worth Real Estate

Come on Guys... we're starting to get more than a little silly here. Please, kids... put your thinking caps back on... and put away your squirt guns. Or... maybe we have just about played this one out ?

Nov 12, 2009 02:55 PM

Melissa Anderson

Be My Neighbor Mortgage - San Antonio, TX

Your Texas Lender

I believe in a woman's right to decide. Abortion should not be a form of birth control.

I also believe that abortion is murder. So the woman does have the right to kill her unborn child.

There are many forms of birth control available to women and men.

If a couple does not protect themselves, then the life that is vacuumed out in the abortion clinic is their fault. Have you seen the pics of the little dead babies?

One night of sex to create a child and kill a child.

Nov 12, 2009 04:12 PM

Karen Anne Stone

New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County - Fort Worth, TX

Fort Worth Real Estate

Melissa: The beginning of two of your sentences says it all. I BELIEVE. Fine. That is your right. But... what you believe should NOT be allowed to control the actions and take away the freedom of choice on decisions made between a woman and her doctor.

As far as paying taxes, and having those funds pay for certain areas of women's health care... like abortions... Jon Stewart said it best. Paying taxes is like going to the zoo. If the price of admission is $20... you can't say "Here is $18.50... I don't like zebras."

What a great analogy.

America is NOT a Theocracy. The actions of all are NOT to be dictated by the religious beliefs of any one group. Period. That is Iran. That is Saudi Arabia. That is NOT America.

Nov 13, 2009 04:16 AM

Michael O'Donnell

Berkshire Hathaway Home Services Arizona Properties - Scottsdale, AZ

GRI, ePRO, Accessible Homes

Darn it Karen Anne, I'm angry! Angry that I didn't have enough common sense to answer like Dave Helm in comment nimber 92. That about says it all.

"Confiscation" is a point of view, not a description. I agree with Dave, let the libertarians here find their own way, but stop using the services, schools, roads, etc. that my taxes pay for.

(One last thought...the anti-government folks in power for the last 15 years who disassembled useful departments and programs insured that when they were necessary they would be too under-funded to function. There is something very disingenuous when a small government/no government party gets in power and hamstrings the government, then when its functions are needed says "See, I told you it wouldn't work!" Self-fullfilling prophecy. Fortunately the free market, and for profit option always works in an unregulated environment - for examples, see Wall Street 2008-2009, and Blackwater [Iraq 2003-2009])

Nov 14, 2009 03:03 AM

Beth Lester

Beth Lester Designs - Torrance, CA

Home Staging & Interior Decorating

Interesting post, Karen Anne. I don't have time to read quite all of the posts, but have skimmed many of them.

Obviously this is a very complex problem, and most of us haven't studied enough original American history documents to be so opinionated in our opinions (I include myself in that - but I'm learning). Reading Thomas Paine's Common Sense (available free on the internet) is quite eye-opening. He is very specific about government's role - which we've gone WAY beyond. Some commenters are correct - many of the programs we already have are "socialist," which proves just how hard it is to get rid of them once we vote them in. For instance, the federal government has no business with education - that is a local issue.

Other than the obvious necessity of having the federal government oversee interestate roads, the judicial system and the military, there is very little need for most of what they control. I am totally astounded by how many people want to give probably the MOST INEFFICIENT organization on earth total control of their own health care. Say what??

As for using my tax dollars to pay for a woman's "right" to kill her child - I find that appalling and morally offensive.

Nov 21, 2009 01:29 AM

Karen Anne Stone

New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County - Fort Worth, TX

Fort Worth Real Estate

Beth: I agree with you. I do NOT agree with using MY tax dollars to pay for a woman's right to kill her unruly six-year old son. He just needs to learn to behave better. Take away his toys for awhile.

Now... if what you mean is having your tax dollars used to kill an "unborn" child... you are talking about a fetus. That is not a child... it is a fetus. It is right here where we get into what you believe to be a tenet of your religion, and what I believe to be a matter of science. A fetus is a fetus.

Also... as far as each individual citizen having the "right" to approve exactly WHAT their tax dollars will pay for... that could not possibly work. I have been against the "War" in Iraq... actually the Invasion of Iraq, from the start. So have many others. Should we be allowed to withhold our tax dollars because we believe that the Invasion of Iraq was against International Law ? I believe we should be able to do that... but it would never work. Compromise has to rule... whether we like it in certain instances or not.

Education ? You agree that the government can determine the use of, and overseeing of interstate roads, but you do NOT believe it should have a hand in education ? How silly. As a country, we must be able to depend upon a degree in one state being the equal of a degree in another. To have fifty different levels of validation of degrees... a different one for each state... would be totally unworkable.

Nov 21, 2009 02:10 AM

Karen Anne Stone

New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County - Fort Worth, TX

Fort Worth Real Estate

Melissa: I too believe there should be other types of birth control rather than abortion.

For example... men who have been convicted for rape. Now, I know mistakes can be made, so I would NOT make this the punishment for, let's say, the first two convictions. But... just like the "three strikes" law... the third time is the "charmer." Any man who is convicted of rape, and it is the third strike... should be castrated. And, I do not mean that silly thing they call "chemical" castration. I mean total, actual surgical removal. It has been scientifically proven that men who do not have a penis or testicles will no longer rape women.

Nov 21, 2009 02:15 AM

Cindy Cranston

Fulmer Realty- Floresville, LaVernia, San Antonio - San Antonio, TX

Karen Anne,

After reading this post and most of the comments that followed I felt compelled to chime in. Like many of those commenting I do not want to see my tax dollars going to abortions under any circumstances. I can live with a woman's freedom of choice, but do not feel it is OK to trample on someones moral beliefs to finance abortion. Abortion is murder, at 8 weeks the fetus has a visible heart beat, life has begun cells are rapidly developing this is a life.

Liberals argue equal government for all when they make the argument for same sex marriage, an issue that I do support. I do agree that our Government does owe equal rights to all, from the gay couple that wants nothing more than to have the right to enter into marriage to the baby in the womb.

For all those who think religion has no place in political conversation, you need to return to the history of this country. The separation of church and state was established not to protect the government from the church, but to protect the church from the government.

Thank-you for this interesting discussion. I look forward to future dialogs.

Nov 21, 2009 04:04 AM

Cindy Cranston

Fulmer Realty- Floresville, LaVernia, San Antonio - San Antonio, TX

One other point. Women have always had several choices in what to do with their bodies.

The Choice to abstain from having sex.

The Choice to use protection.

The Choice to take responsibility for their previous bad choices.

The matter at hand isn't the Choice of women it is the lack of choice the government would give to those who believe abortion is murder in a health care plan that forces our tax dollars to pay for abortion.

Nov 21, 2009 04:14 AM

Karen Anne Stone

New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County - Fort Worth, TX

Fort Worth Real Estate

Cindy: The thing that hits me first about your comment... is your idea of taking away a woman's reproductive choice as far as what she and her doctor deem best... because of a "belief" of yours. You are free to believe whatever you wish. This is America. You are NOT free, however, to then turn that "belief" of yours, that is YOUR belief, and turn that belief into a law, and the FORCE all women to abide by that belief.

Again... your "belief" is that abortion is murder. That does not make it so. You are fee to live your belief by choosing not to have an abortion yourself. You are not free... to dictate the choices that should be, by law, available to other women who do not share the same set of religious beliefs as you do.

You may not "want" to see your tax dollars going for abortions. Fine. I did not "want" to see my tax dollars going for the Invasion of Iraq. But... just as I did not have the legal ability to force my belief on others, neither do you.

Cindy... religion DOES have a place in any discussion. Religion just does NOT have a place in allowing one group of people with a certain religious belief... to enforce that belief on another group.

What cannot be allowed to happen... is for the government to adopt the views of the church, and then force them on it's citizens. This is NOT Iran. This is NOT Saudi Arabia. This is America.

Cindy: Thanks so much for your comment. Please return again... and share your opinions.

Nov 21, 2009 10:14 AM

Terry Chenier

Homelife Glenayre Realty - Mission, BC

Karen,

Religious beliefs,

medical needs.

Two different subjects.

Nov 24, 2009 05:02 PM

Karen Anne Stone

New Home Hunters of Fort Worth and Tarrant County - Fort Worth, TX

Fort Worth Real Estate

Terry: You're trying to make actual SENSE again with your comment. I thought I warned you about that. That's almost Un-American these days. But... oops... you are Canadian... and you folks often make more sense than "we" do. Silly me.

Nov 24, 2009 06:58 PM

Pat Laracy Baker

Realty Executives Boston West - Holliston, MA

Pat Baker Dream Home Maker

This is truly a horrible day for America. The healthScare bill is going to be a rude awakening for many who favor it now. Watch and see. What have we become? Why must this be shoved down our throat.

Mar 21, 2010 10:37 AM

Beth Lester

Beth Lester Designs - Torrance, CA

Home Staging & Interior Decorating

Sad day indeed. The government is taking power over our bank accounts (direct access), our health care, more businesses, our mental health, and even our child-raising. I don't understand why so many Americans have thought this is a good thing?? Ignorance of our founding perhaps? Ignorance of what they power-mongers are doing perhaps? Sad, sad day.

Kiss many more freedoms good-bye, people!

Mar 21, 2010 11:22 AM

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