Home Inspector CAUSED defects

LOL!! Gee, this little thread is just taking all kinds of turns, isn't it?

We started out with a HI who supposedly caused a defect by not recognizing that an entire GFCI circuit was actually wired through, and dependent upon, a switch, and whether he should be required to pay the poor seller who had to hire Mike to come out and check it out; wherupon Mike, being the smart, qualified guy he is (sincerely), determined there was no defect at all, albeit the wiring scheme employed was, shall we say, unusual; therefore, in light of better information and keen insight on the part of some, it was thereupon determined that there could not have been an inspector caused defect, since the defect didn't exist in the first place.

Of course, certain realtor (with a little 'r') persons jumped straight on that, since there was a nasty, dumb home inspector being criticized.  Then, after learning forthwith that they were a bit out of their league, those folks jumped off that load of logs and haven't been heard from since.

The debate ensued when Mike, realizing that he may have some cow poo-poo on his boots over this one, declared that the whole debate was really intended to engender wholesome debate on whether we, as home inspectors, have the legal right to inspect electrical panels in the absence of an electrical contractor's license.

After mercifully receiving that clarification, the discussion then turned to an enlightening discourse in which I for one thought that we had come to a kind of consensus that we are, after all, generalists and not necessarily expected to be a card carrying, bonafide, branded and stamped expert in every aspect of building science.  But I agree with you, Mike, and I bet everyone involved in this thread agrees also that the 3 day or 5 day fuzzy cheeked Kaplan School Graduate probably has no business being let loose on the public.  But it's a matter of degrees.

 

I am reminded of a joke I heard, and I wish I could claim authorship:

A government guy from the Dept. of Agriculture, who administered certain parity programs, visited the farm of a crusty old guy who had signed up for the program the government guy had authority over.  He walked up to the old farmer, who was working on a piece of machinery down at the barn, told him who he was, and informed him that he intended to inspect his fields for compliance.

"Go ahead," said the farmer, "but stay out of that pasture right over yonder."  The government guy bristled up, and, reaching into his pocket, pulled out his credentials, shaking it in the old man's face.

"You see this card, old man?  This card gives me the authority to go into any damn field, pasture, or run-down structure you got on this farm!"

The old man shrugged.  "Suit yerself," he said, and continued working on the piece of machinery.

In a few minutes there was a blood-crudling scream heard from the direction of the banned pasture, and looking up, the old man saw the government guy running for his life from the farmer's big, nasty, mean-spirited prize bull.

"Show him yer CARD!" Yelled the farmer.

The point is this:  When it comes to consumers, they may or may not be impressed by the various cards you carry.  It is up to local government to determine minimum standards, and by this I mean the individual states.  If you, as an individual, want to make the bar extremely high, you are probably doomed to failure. BUT, if you'd like to establish things like E&O requirements, general liability requirements, along with some extra training, plus demonstrating that you can at least pass the NHIE as a standard, you just may have some success.  The HI schools won't be able to teach you enough to pass it, easy as it is for those of us who've been around awhile.  You will have to have had some pretty good experience and hands on knowledge of building systems and components.  The standards stated above will at least keep out the clueless ones who, in unlicensed states, may just be pretty saavy at marketing despite their general stupidity at anything else.  Those standards will do much more to protect the public interest than depending on the market to weed out the incompetents.

And if they don't the mob from Hoboken will.

LOL!! Hey, Bob, you ol' lurker.  How the heck are ya?

 

Now it's Lurker. Thats a new one Voyeur.

Sorry everyone that was an inside joke.

Hey Bob,

Is Jimmy a dirty old man? No wonder we all fit right in.

Jimmy,

I graduated 16 days at Kaplan... and 35 years practical experience. Two points I'd like to make.

1. With all of the construction knowledge I have, I would not have the foggiest idea how to inspect without the knowledge I picked up there.

2. I would not be able to inspect to the level I do without the practical experience I have amassed.

Additional point of interest... so far this year, I have picked up approx. 70 hours of CE's. and have more planned.

In the martial arts, it is thought by some, that achieving the rank of Black Belt make you an expert. A knowledgeable martial artist understands that all it means is that you have learned enough to begin learning.

Yes, Stephen...but the Kaplan School would have been much less use to you without the practical experience.  I wasn't putting down the Kaplan Schools, merely pointing out that practical experience is needed in addition.  The Kaplan School, or some other, and I used Kaplan simply because they are recognized as one of the best, is clearly needed along with the experience.  They go hand in hand.  One without the other leaves a serious void.  There are those, especially in unlicensed states, with little practical experience who attend one of the schools, then go out and hang their hat.  What I was attempting to state was that strictly HI training is needed, as well as practical experience, plus the ability to pass the NHIE at a minimum.  In about 20 states, you can still go into the business without either, and I think that is Mike's biggest beef, and I don't blame him.  He just unfortunately chose an iffy illustration to his point in this case.  Not big deal, if any of us were perfect, we probably wouldn't hang around here with mere mortals anyway.

Now you guys are making me feel guilty and I suppose I will need to come up with a technical piece soon.

It's more fun reading them and making comments.After all criticizing is in our nature,but we get paid for it.

Need to think of a different subject matter not touched on though as I hate treading backwards.

 

Bob, I'm beginning to think that home inspection subject have all been technically parsed.  It's kind of like writing about the Civil War...somebody has already done it.  So I think sometimes we just play devil's advocate, and attempt to put a whole new spin on an old subject.  In so doing though, we at least keep each other sharp.

Yes, I Think the inspector should be responsible for the cost of repairs.

I think the guys sharing their experiances is never ending entertainment,but pure code talk can get a little dry.And there is plenty of that on other forums,but there is a hell of a lot of knowledge to share with each other as long as we do not keep printing the same how to DIY for dummies over and over again.

Hi Jim..I take it you you feel there were not enough unusual circumstances to warrent consideration for the other view point.

What repairs?  As it turns out, there were no repairs to repair, just a dumb sparky who lacked the common sense to place a switch to a GFCI protected exterior light on the downstream portion of a circuit.  Essentially, we have deadfront GFCI receptacles unlabled as such, the entire GFCI circuit wired through a switch, not identified as GFCI, and a home inspector who, whether he was capable of it or not, followed SOP and did not play electrician, but referred it.  And a few people unqualified to say so who think he should pay for Mike coming out and exercising his electrician's license to trouble shoot the circuit.  Get real.

I am a home inspector, 4 1/2 yrs now, 1500 inspections performed. About 2 years ago I inspected a home and the owners were there. Well about 7pm that night get a call from the owners that a GFCI in the laundry room tripped and won't reset. It is my fault. I explain that I do trip GFCI and reset them and test they did have power when they were reset. Nope! My fault. I say, well are you going to be up in about an hour, it will take me that long to get to your house. Sure. So I am kind of ticked now, knowing that I did what I said I did. I head to this home, stopping at Wal Mart and pick up a GFCI. I know, this is beyond a home inspector but being an electrician for 7 years, I think I know about GFCI's. So, at the house, sure enough the GFCI won't reset. Hmmm. Checking all receptacles to be sure nothing is plugged in. Won't reset. Hmmm the garage is on this same GFCI. Nothing plugged in to any receptacle. The owner of course watching my every move. I replace this laundry GFCI and same thing, won't reset. Hmmm. Find the feed to the laundry room from the garage and disconnect  the garage from the laundry room. GFCI works just fine! Hmmm. begin the search in the garage. Cannot find anything! Hmmm. then out of the corner of my eye find a tiny timer about 2 inches square wire nutted to a circuit and taped up to a board over a window. What is that I ask? Oh that is the timer to the lights at the end of the driveway. Can I disconnect that? Sure. So I do and lo and behold the GFCI works. The owner with a stupid look says, Oh we have been having problems with those lights shorting out!  I put all of the receptacle covers back on and pack my tools. The owner says can I pay you something for your time? I said, You couldn't afford me. He said how about the new GFCI I said, oh it was just a spare I had laying around the house. Have a good evening, and left.
Not every time is it the home inspectors fault for something that does not work. Now, if I had not reset this GFCI and this owner had called out an electrician and all that was needed was to reset it then I would expect to be paying the fee for the electrician. On the other hand, in an old house and a GFCI will not reset when I trip it, I write it up as such, this GFCI will not reset, the unit appears to be worn out as a GFCI normally will only last about 8-10 years.

Frank Ross
Certified Home Inspector
Pillar To Post Professional Home Inspections
SW Utah
www.pillarposthomeinspection.com

Wow Frank, you sure must have been biting your tongue on that one.

I think someone is full of crap.

Being a licensed roofer doesn't make you a good home inspector.

Neither does being a licensed anything.  Licenses only prove a minimum level of competency (or grandfathering) at one point in time.

Don't believe me.  Why are you always cursing and getting mad at those "state licensed drivers" out on the road.  They've proved that at one point in time, they had a minimal level of compentency.

It's what you do after you make the decision to become a home inspector that really matters.

Do you do the bare minimalist inspecting and reporting that you can get away with.  Little or no continuing education.

We all see examples of "licensed professionals" screwing up almost every day.  Not every screw up was done by Harry Homeowner. 

And, we get paid for pointing them out to our clients.

The below picture is just one exampe.  Yes the seller had a receipt showing that the water heater was installed by a licensed professional plumber about two years ago  Does the fact that it was a licensd plumber make this right!

 

I'm rather new to AR so forgive me for digging up old topics but this remind me of yet another life story that taught me a lesson. Many years ago I installed a new ceiling fan. First I flipped the breaker, then checked the wires to ensure no power. I installed the fan flipped the break back on and pulled the cord on the fan. No workie. A bit of grumbling, flip the breaker, remove the fan, double check everything, it's all good I'm positive re-install, flip breaker, no workie. I did this three times. After the third time I just sat there leaning against the wall trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. My frustration built and turned in disgust. As i turned, I noticed the switch on the wall, flipped it and the fan went round and round. Boy did I feel stupid.

 

Anyways, there is a fine line between integrity and becoming a sucker. I may have forgot to reset the GFCI, but it's amazing how there just happened to be 100lbs of fillet mignon in the freezer that went bad because of it. Of course, it stank so bad they threw it out before anyone could see, but it was there. The HI that fell through the roof and hid it, is a coward IMHO. If he/she isn't strong enough to stand behind their faults, I doubt they stand behind anything they said.

Of course I would not, nor should anyone, set up a situation like this, but standing behind your work and being willing to accept fault if fault is due, can actually lead to more clients. I'm sure the customer in Frank's example spoke very well of him to others. 

Frank Ross, I salute you in what you did. That is how a proper HI should do it. 

I had a home owner try and say that I damage ceiling in the far bedroom while I was walking in the attic. Well first off, I take pictures. 2nd, my client and his Realtor was there to confirm that I was unable to gain access to the attic due to all of the boxes they had stacked in the attic which I noted in the report with photos. They tried to hit me with a $2500 bill for repairs.

Back to the point of the post, I just found where in July of 2006 manufactures were no longer allowed to make a GFCI that would reset if it was improperly wired line to load. So if your GFCI doesn't reset, it might be wired improperly.

Welcome back Mike. 

Read the article seems like a fence sitter. 

He Lives!