Work Is The Blessing, Welfare Is The Curse

By
Real Estate Agent with The Real Estate Corner

Have you ever believed something but were not exactly sure why you believed it? You knew it in your heart but yet circumstances in your life would challenge your assertions of that belief. You could just not quite pinpoint why it was true for you but you knew it was. I've felt that way about a belief I've had for the past few years but only when I truly examined it did I know why. Unless you were already like minded, I couldn't convince you of it. I just knew it.

So how many times has this happened to you? You work hard, you do the "right" things and pay your bills, put food on the table, family first, never miss a payment, went to college and got a great job, have a lot of debt and then wonder why your neighbor or that man in the grocery store has a Rolex and you don't?Perhaps it is even more blatant. Maybe you're a landlord showing a rental property to a Section 8 tenant and her live in boyfriend shows up driving a brand new Ford Explorer completely loaded. She has kids with the man but is not married to him to avoid getting docked her monthly cut from the government. So he lives with her and they live in style on your tax dollars having the government pay their rent and hand them food stamps while you drive a 1995 Ford Taurus just doing what you can to make ends meet paying the mortgage, working a full time job, trying to put your kids through school, and take care of your family. Did you ever have a weak moment and say "What Am I Doing Wrong?".Ford Explorer

I remember when I used to work at the Ford Plant in Brook Park, Ohio we had a gentleman (gentleman is being nice) on our line who flaunted his seniority for maximum break time while collecting the full pay. His way or the highway, intimidation 101. I was much younger but had a bull head and if you knew me then, then you knew that I didn't matter what size you were or if you could kick my arse, I was going to speak my mind. It got me into to trouble but it was also teaching me something else. I inherently knew this man was a disservice to not only the company but to his own health as well, it showed in his gut. Yet I could not at that time, pinpoint it. I felt blessed to be able to work and I felt that his laziness was a curse. Despite his flaunting of getting paid for sitting on his rear, I knew better. He was the loser and it reflected in his personal life in some serious ways.

In light of the times we are in I decided I needed to take another hard look at WHY I believe in spite of the current set of circumstances, my life is blessed and the "benefits" that the new health care policies will in turn create will quickly become the curse, a result of the unearned entitlement mentality (laziness).

What I have found about the foundation my belief system is solid:

God ordained work as a blessing for mankind and His Kingdom (Genesis 1:28). God also practices what he preaches, as the Lord himself testified in John 5:17. For me, that is more than enough to know that when I am working, I experience a blessing. Yet, there is more to solidify that belief. Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 3:6-8 the following:

In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you have received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat.

Thank you, Paul! Enough said. The foundation upon which I believe that if I am working I am being blessed and honoring God stands. If you are being taught the contrary in your church or school, it's dead wrong and you're setting yourself up for disappointment, frustration, unhappiness, and failure (in no particular order).Atlas Shrugged

I will, however, not just use the Bible as a reference point for this but also refer to an author who held firm in her belief that God did not exist. John Galt, a character made famous by Ayn Rand's masterpiece "Atlas Shrugged" took to task the idle mind with this statement:

No, you do not have to think; it is an act of moral choice. But someone had to think to keep you alive; if you choose to default then you default on existence and you pass the deficit to some moral man, expecting him to sacrifice his good for the sake of letting you survive by your evil. -John Galt, Atlas Shrugged

The idle mind, the slothful and lazy man is being defined as evil according to Rand. The Bible concurs:

Proverbs 18:9: Whoever is lazy in his work is related to a vandal

For those of this lifestyle, the curse can take on many forms. It may be the house he owns or rents shows signs of major disrepair and sloppiness (Ecclesiastes 10:18). Laziness leaves visual clues and signs of potential, if not already apparent problems and likely will show signs in body (health) or mental acuteness. Begging will eventually ensue in one form or another and with that comes a lost sense of self worth. Consider Proverbs (6:10,11 and 19:15). The welfare state is not only a form begging, it's a form of theft. Those who would not condone the laziness and fraud perpetuated in the welfare state are forced to or they will face jail time. The legendary "War on Poverty" has created more poverty since it's inception than it has cured. The welfare tallies continue to rise and with it so do the number of idle minds, debilitated bodies, and atrophied spirits.  

I want none of that. My love of God, family, and life is too great and my self worth is too important to leave to somebody else to decide. I'm not a number or a statistic. I am not a victim though I am part of the most discriminated class of people since before the Civil Rights era. You'll not find me among the "Protected Classes" in Fair Housing Law. I am an individual. I've been blessed with an able body and a sound mind. To let them waste under the "mercy" of the federal government is a punishment worse than death itself. It is a curse.

I can only pray that otherwise able bodies and minds lost in the mire of government welfare will see the values of self worth and hard work. I can only pray that they break of the chains of slavery crushing the human spirit and are released from the societal onslaught subordinating them to a state of victim-hood. No amount of unearned material gains can replace the contentedness and joy that self worth brings. Regrets at your deathbed are no way to go out.......

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Rainer
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Matthew - Thanks for the post.  The American Dream is built on hard work and more hard work.  I join you in your prayer those who are on welfare.

Mar 23, 2010 09:00 PM #1
Rainmaker
73,627
Tarris Rogers
Cascade Sotheby's International Realty - Bend, OR
Bend Oregon Real Estate

Matthew, I appreciate your work ethic and especially the fact that you hold the Bible as a book to be trusted.  It sounds like the recently passed health care bill, as well as other injustices are of major concern to you. 

You brought up a good question when you stated, "You work hard, you do the "right" things and pay your bills, put food on the table, family first, never miss a payment, went to college and got a great job, have a lot of debt and then wonder why your neighbor or that man in the grocery store has a Rolex and you don't?Perhaps it is even more blatant. Maybe you're a landlord showing a rental property to a Section 8 tenant and her live in boyfriend shows up driving a brand new Ford Explorer completely loaded. She has kids with the man but is not married to him to avoid getting docked her monthly cut from the government. So he lives with her and they live in style on your tax dollars having the government pay their rent and hand them food stamps while you drive a 1995 Ford Taurus just doing what you can to make ends meet paying the mortgage, working a full time job, trying to put your kids through school, and take care of your family. Did you ever have a weak moment and say "What Am I Doing Wrong?".

The answer to your question is that under the present system of things, the advantage goes to those who mimic the personality traits of the real ruler of this world we live in.  The apostle John exposed who that ruler was at 1 John 5:19 which says, "We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."  

What most people don't realize is that Satan is controlling the world we live in.  In fact the Devil at Matthew 4:8,9 even offered to give Jesus the governments of the world to Jesus if Jesus would give just one act of worship to him.  That is also why Jesus when questioned by Pontius Pilate just before Jesus death said to Pilate at John 18:36, "My Kingdom is no part of this world.  If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews.  But...as it is, my kingdom in not from this source.

So then, where is the real solution to the problems that we all see such as laziness, cheating and the like that goes on everywhere around us?  It is the very Kingdom that Jesus made the focus of his message that he preached about while he was on the earth.  God gave the prophet Daniel a vision of the major Governmental powers that would appear throughout history and then revealed what God's end plan was going to be at Daniel 2:44, where it says, "And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin.  And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people.  It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite."  What will life be like after man's governments are done away with?

At Psalms 37:10,11 the Bible states, "And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; and you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be (in other words you could look for a wicked person and wouldn't be able to find one) But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."

When you look at the signs that Jesus gave his followers at Matthew chapter 24, it becomes apparent that we are nearing the 'conclusion of this system of things.' meaning a world controlled by Satan the Devil.  When you look around you at all the war, crime, violence, lack of love for fellowman, it is apparent who is really controlling the worlds affairs. 

The big question is...why would a God of Love allow all the wickedness we have seen through the thousands of years of mans existense to continue this long?  The bible gives a meaningful and clear answer which I'm happy to share if you're interested. 

Again, I appreciate you bringing up a valid point that is on many people's mind and hope the above sheds some light on why things are the way they are.

Mar 23, 2010 09:16 PM #2
Rainmaker
354,838
Dale Terry
Yadkinville, NC

Matthew, excellent post.  You touch on the points that are hurting our way of life and more to the point, take one of the very items that manifest itself everywhere.  So many people are afraid to "name' names.  Well, I have posted many times on the Section 8 program and how it is destroying our poor, many in the minority community.  We must fight all of these community groups that take our tax dollars and waste them only to ask for more the year.

Mar 23, 2010 11:25 PM #3
Rainmaker
830,417
Broker Nick
South Florida Real Estate & Development, Inc. - Coconut Creek, FL
Broker Nick Relocation Broker Service

Matthew - Great post - if we don't work - neither let him eat! Harsh words but it is in the Bible -

Mar 23, 2010 11:47 PM #4
Rainmaker
1,244,311
Wallace S. Gibson, CPM
Gibson Management Group, Ltd. - Charlottesville, VA
LandlordWhisperer

I'm listening to Atlas Shrugged on my iPod and I can relate SOO MUCH of the book to our current national and INTERNATIONAL * very depressing!!!

Mar 24, 2010 12:23 AM #5
Rainer
19,409
Matthew P. Klein
The Real Estate Corner - Cleveland, OH

Brian - Thank you for praying! We live in a strange world where the easy and unearned is looked upon as moral and to work for yourself is looked upon as evil.

Tarris - A well thought out response! Paul also metioned in Ephesians where the real fight was and who it was against. It's a shame that many have put themselves into slavery voluntarily at the mercy of the state. Instead of a chain, it's long line, food stamp, and a government check. Many do so with great joy. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts as I have my own on the subject, I'll email you.

Dale - Naming names has to be done. The inability to name a truth and leave it an abstraction is well displayed in "Atlas Shrugged".

Nicholas - Amen!

Wallace - "Atlas Shrugged" seems almost prophetic, it is that scary when you see what is happening today. I first read the book three years ago and I've reread it since. I encourage you to also read "The Fountianhead" and "Capitalism : The Unknown Ideal". It puts many of the ill-concieved notions running rampant today about capitalism to rest. It should be required reading in schools but....that would mean the children in our schools could actually read. That is another skill that is deteriorating in our system along with critical thinking skills.....

 

Mar 24, 2010 03:42 AM #6
Rainer
19,409
Matthew P. Klein
The Real Estate Corner - Cleveland, OH

Hi Michael,

Your comment is all over the place! I just checked your blog and I understand that you've been going through a lot and maybe that's a part of it. I hope things work out for you. I mean that sincerely. I can't tackle everything you've said without making it lengthy (and off topic) so I'm just going to answer what was relavent to my post. If you'd like to discuss the other issues, post them and I'll be happy to indulge you.

I quoted both Old and New Testament in my post. I do not see an inherent contradiction in those verses. Am I wrong? For good measure I also threw in material from a staunch athiest which coincides with these same beliefs. As far as I can tell in both Old and New Testament, an attitude of laziness is condemned. If Jesus blessed laziness, there is a page missing in my Bible. If Moses blessed the lazy, then I have another page missing as well.

When it comes to the health care issue, I've got a clean conscience. No matter how you look at the process or the results, God will deal the issue. There is no such thing as something for nothing, everything has a price. The invoice has been written and the bill is coming due. Historically speaking, every goverment initiated domestic program has overspent and underperformed. Justice will be served but the saddest part is that, the majority of those expecting these benefits will never understand why when they or their loved ones perish. If there is one place where a contradiction exists, it is that my heart is torn over that fact for two opposing reasons.

When it comes to your other issues of sodomy, stoning, executing retarded children, Republicans and Bush I'm not sure where you found those in my posts. I know I'd remember mentioning those and they are not there. What do they have to do with work being a blessing and laziness being a curse?

Mar 24, 2010 01:50 PM #8
Rainmaker
236,074
SEO Expert: Michael George
Phoenix, AZ
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Sorry.  I was having a very bad day yesterday and I didn't mean to attack you.

I did go all over the place on that stuff.

I'll try to sum it up more succinctly:  Welfare.  Jesus fed the sick, clothed the poor, and the son of God humbled himself on occasion anyway-- just because he was a kind, forgiving, compassionate person.

I just found this post- and a couple others you have written- to be very lacking in that whole compassion issue and I don't know how you can be Christian and also stand against helping out the poor.

Perfect example:  When my wife died, she died horribly.  She rotted away like a skeleton.  It was the most traumatic thing I have ever been through.  (I was only 37 when it happened and I am 38 now.)

For 12 months, I was unable to function.  All I could do was cry and cry and cry.  Eventually, I ran out of food and money...of course.  I was left with $710,000 in medical bills and I had to sell every one of my possessions.  Now that's just the cards that God dealt to me, and I understand that.

But for several months, I could only eat one small meal every three days or so.  I sometimes bought food with change.

If I wouldn't have had to sell my cars...  I would have driven to the Welfare Office and begged for food stamps.  I was wasting away.

So how would welfare been a curse?  Please explain that.  I almost landed in the hospital for malnutrition, but I couldn't afford the health insurance.  How would that have not been looked on as a blessing from God if I would have been given a chance to buy food?  Yes, my friends would feed me when they saw me, but I couldn't depend on my small group of friends for 3 squares.

So would it have been a curse for me to collect welfare and get some food in my body?  You're right:  I was not working.  I was a lazy man.  If you call crying and sobbing every day for 12 months "lazy."  I loved her so much and I was left with nothing. 

Now bear in mind, I made all of the right choices in my life.  I have two college degrees and I am close to finishing my masters in Early Childhood Development and Elementary Education.  I'm no "curse".  Welfare is no "curse."

Also, health care is a form of welfare.  How is that a curse?  My wife died when she was 33 because we did not have decent enough coverage.  As a Christian, with compassion I hope, how could your politics get in the way of my wife's need to get medical care?  How would you feel if something tragic happened in your lifetime and a child (God forbid) in your care became sick with cancer?  And you needed $710,000 (as I did) to continue her care?

Would you just say-- honey, I can't take welfare, because the bible doesn't think I should.  You'll just have to die sweetheart.

I don't think you would.  Under the right circumstance, anyone can need welfare.  It's not a bad thing.  It's something we need to do for the weakest in our society.

Leviticus 19:9-10 "When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field to its very border, neither shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest. And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner; I am the LORD your God."

Deut 24:19-22 "When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. When you beat the olives from your trees, do not go over the branches a second time. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt. That is why I command you to do this."

Sounds like welfare to me. Sounds like God is imposing a tax on your harvest to be given to the poor.

Deuteronomy 15: 11 "For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land."

And I can't seem to find the verse, although I had a little post-it note in my bible, so maybe you can help with this one.  Doesn't God say (something like):

"What you do unto the weakest of Mine, you do unto Me."

Again, I am quoting from memory.  That one may be a bit off...

People who are on welfare-- be it food stamps or medicaid-- are God's weakest.

What say you?  I'm just dying for you to tell me that I deserved to go hungry, you know, because you're a Christian and all that.  I'm dying to hear your answer.

Mar 25, 2010 04:39 AM #9
Rainer
19,409
Matthew P. Klein
The Real Estate Corner - Cleveland, OH

Hi Michael,

Thanks for coming back! I was going to leave your other post, you didn't have to delete it. I wasn't offended but it's your perrogative. #9 is much clearer and here is my response to your concerns:

Two things I noticed about your post. First, I cannot accept your premise that because I am against public welfare I have no compassion. Compassion, Michael, like love is a choice. If there is no free will to make that choice, then it is not love nor is it compassion. You tell me that you loved your wife and I have no doubt that you did. Did you do it because that is what your were supposed to do as her husband or is it because it is what you wanted to do? If you were acting out of duty alone, was it love? If you handed her flowers on Valentine's Day you probably didn't say "These are for you because this is what I am supposed to do as your husband, all husbands must do this for their wives which is why I am doing it."

I don't know you well but I know this much about you, you were crazy about your wife. You loved her madly and losing her destroyed you. Loving her was of your own free will, no one forced you to. That is why love and compassion are so powerful. Your reaction would not be as strong if it was not of your own free will. The same goes with public welfare. I give of my own free will, I help of my own free will. My philosophy on life is to help create self sufficiency not permanent dependency. One is the blessing of freedom and the other is the curse of slavery. It is a choice that I consciously make, not one that I am being forced to do at the threat of jail time. The term compassion does not apply here. If I am helping somebody because there is a gun to my head, is that compassion or am I being forced under duress? Compassion under these terms is fake and disingenious. 

Secondly, you mention Jesus and his teachings a lot. So let me give you my perspective. Accepting Christ as your Saviour must be of your own free will. It cannot be under duress else it is not real. If your pastor has a gun to your head telling you to "Accept Christ or Else!" then accepting him is obviously under a false pretense. A physical need of self preservation. It is something you have to believe, you come to understand on your own. It is an individual choice. Jesus was a man, one. His teachings went out to men, each their own person. When he taught and individuals listened, they came to follow his teaching of their own free will. The apostles chose of their own free will to follow him, almost all of them to their eventual death. It wasn't because he coerced them or forced them, they believed in him. They made their own choices. Suppose Jesus had forced them to serve him, would these events have the same effect? Would they have the same meaning to you as they do now if Jesus had thrown bolts of lightning at all of his dissenters and killed them?

Perspective on the Bible needs to be focused. The book was written for the individual, the single gretest minority on the planet and also the most discriminated against. Charity, if you will, has been the vocation of the Church for as long as I can remember or recall in my readings. It is not only the caring of the body, but of the spirit and of the mind. I do not recall in the Bible anywhere where God or Christ states that the government should take over the duties of the church. Did you recieve government assistance during this difficult time in your life, Michael? You were not too specific on that point. It doesn't sound like you did. If you did, did you find it a lot easier to go to the government for help than a church?

I am all for helping the weak but not at the expense of my own free will to do so. I do not accept the premise either that those on food stamps or medicaid are among our weakest. I've seen and known people outside of the system that do not take money from the government. They are not the people who have fallen in between the cracks (and those cracks are actually canyons when you talk government programs) but they are people who do not feel it is acceptable to have their neighbors pick up their tab.

In the end, setting people free to chart their own course and guiding them through to self sufficiency is my idea of compassion. Simply throwing money at problem and not taking into account the individual's need to provide for themselves is heinous and criminal. It makes them dependent and makes them slaves.   

Mar 25, 2010 08:13 AM #11
Rainmaker
236,074
SEO Expert: Michael George
Phoenix, AZ
Real Estate and Law Firm SEO

Okay, thank you for this response.  But you didn't answer my questions.

Would welfare have been a "curse" if it was given to me during my time of need?  Would welfare have been a curse if it kept my wife alive longer?  And with my strong educational background, do you still stand by the fact that poor people make bad choices and are lazy?

Was I lazy because I was unable to work for a year?

And finally, would you collect welfare if your choices were only:  1.  Your children starve or B. You collect welfare.  What would you do?

I didn't get help from the government or my church.  You know why?  Because nobody-- including my church-- cares about widowers.  Widows?  Oh heck yes.  Widowers?  You can starve to death you lazy heathen!

These questions are extremely relevant to your post and if you could answer them honestly, I would appreciate it.  Please don't say things like, "I would go to my church for help."

Hypothetically, let us say your church couldn't or wouldn't help, as was the case with mine and the widower / widow thing.

You also neatly ignored some very significant biblical passages to my argument.  You just gave me more of your Christian philosophy (which I am already well versed in) without telling me what you probably believe:  That I was lazy and deserved to starve...as I did.

That is still what you believe right?

 

Mar 25, 2010 09:25 AM #12
Rainer
19,409
Matthew P. Klein
The Real Estate Corner - Cleveland, OH

You've got an awful lot bait on that hook and you are making an awful lot of assumptions. It's too bad the premises for your arguements is faulty.

Let's work through this. First, if your church wouldn't help you then you need to find a new church. I'm not calling you a liar but that excuse doesn't seem right. Is there more to this story? Regardless, the odds are way too long that no church at all would help you. If you choose to discount all churches for the actions of one, then that is the choice you have made. I know of and have personally been a part of several charitable organizations in the past and done quite a few public and private events of my own volition where I saw a need. I can also attest the actions of my own church. However, if you are expecting people to perfect then you will be disappointed. If you're looking for the perfect church, you'll be disappointed. They are all run by imperfect people. I guess that means you have something in common with them. 

Secondly, it is my belief that the family is the safety net. Therefore, before going anywhere else if I needed help I would go to family. The family was, until the welfare state, the original safety net. If I could not get help there (and if you have a family they should be considered a resource), then yes I would look to my church for assistance. It's part of the reason we tithe, to help those facing disasters in their lives. If my church could not help, then I would look at several other options from non-profit, non-government funded assistance. If I had to, I could put my possessions (and I can) up for sale to fund her care. I've also held multiple jobs before and not above doing it again. If she needs ongoing attention like shots or guided exercise, etc. I'll make that a third job. To an extent, without getting into detail, I do that now since our system doesn't a cover specific. I'm not moaning about it. If getting assistance for my beloved's health meant changing locations, I would do that, too. I'm not grounded and I haven't put myself in a position where it would be at huge financial loss to do so. There are always options and difficult situations often build character, strength, and resilience. I will not force people at the point of a gun or with the threat of jail time to help me. I can't, it's not in me. I do my best to treat others as I would like to be treated and that means I cannot directly or indirectly (by voting) coerce anyone.

Now collect welfare or children starve? Are you telling me that I can't work for even food? Are you telling me that I cannot plant a garden? I can't go fishing? I can't kill it, drag it home, and cook it? This premise is not well thought out. The scenerio is preposterous. As long as people are on this planet services will be needed.....but to indulge you let's look at your false premise's worst case. Welfare money comes from taxes and taxes are collected from business which produces a product or service. So there is work. Is it work that I necessarily want to do? Probably not. If it means survival will I do it? You betcha'. You see, most people will not look at doing "those"  things. I don't care if it is cleaning toilets, Michael. I'd rather do that that put a gun to your head and force you to pay me for no value gained. The question is, would you rather collect an easy money welfare check off of my hard work or clean a toilet? 

Incidentally, I have made a choice not have children until I can afford them comfortably. It may mean my wife and I don't have kids or we adopt later in life, so be it. We're fine with that.

Since you did not get help from the government or the church and you are still alive, that means you didn't starve to death. Right? I am guessing that because of this tragedy in your life you are probably a whole heck of a lot stronger and more resilient than you were before this event. I personally have not lost a spouse but just the thought it frightens me, I wholly admit it. To endure what you had to endure had to be very tough, probably very lonely. Yet, here you are Michael. You are here. Life threw a 10.0 earthquake at you and you are still standing without needing the government and without needing the church for assistance. I define "needs" very specifically as things you must have to survive. Obviously, you didn't need them. Would they have been a help to you? Perhaps, but you didn't need them.

I thought I was clear about the Bible but let me try it again. The verses you gave me, read them again. How many times do you see the word "you" written in those two verses? The word "you" is singular, one. I counted thirteen uses of the word "you" in those verses you gave me. "You" is not a collective, not two, not three. That command is for the individual. To obey or disobey a command is an individual choice. You are commanded to drive the speed limit yet I saw a blog post about those darned traffic cameras on your blog. You have a ticket. Well, it is a choice you made. Those commands in the Bible were not directed at a government. 

Finally, I want to deal with your last assumption. It may sound cold but you do not have a monopoly on personal tragedy. Life can be very cruel and it can be very hard as you know. If you wanted to stay out of the market for a year of your volition, I'm good with that. If you would have asked for help, Michael, I would have helped you without a second thought. You even claim to have recieved a lot of monetary help when you talked about your "other" personal crisis. If you, however, were to demand I help you while putting a gun to my head I would not do so out of compassion but out of contempt. If you were demand continuous amounts at the point of that gun for years and years I would not like you in the least. If you were to tell me at the point of a gun that it is my public duty, to the common good and good of all the people to give you money because you lost your wife and that I should continuously do so I would feel no compassion for you. What I freely give is compassion, Michael. What I am forced to hand over, not of my own volition, is not compassionate. Love, like the love you felt for your wife is freely given.

I'm sensing something else in this conversation and you can decide whether or not you want to divulge on a public forum. So let me give you a backdrop, I once held the church in complete contempt over the actions of a few. I sat in one on one situations with Pastors and Trustees demanding answers to circumstances and actions that I thought were totally unjust and not acceptable. I've also been walked out of those same buildings. It was eleven years and an awful lot of pain before I found a home. I sincerely hope that your journey is shorter.

Now, that is a long post. If I missed something, I'm sure you'll tell me.

Mar 25, 2010 02:56 PM #13
Rainmaker
236,074
SEO Expert: Michael George
Phoenix, AZ
Real Estate and Law Firm SEO

Matthew-- first of all, I want to tell you that I really liked your response-- even if I think you are wrong on many counts.  It was very articulate, well thought out and rational.  I still have a few qustions for you, but I am actually not at home right now.  I just wanted to check in and tell you I appreciate your argument...

But as Arnold says, "I'll be back."

Just give me 24 hours.  I sincerely appreciate this dialogue.

I do need to address...the sensing of "something else" that you mentioned.  I can't think of anything I wouldn't divulge on a public forum, because I am an open book.  I would love to know what you mean by that.  However, if you think it would slander or embarass me, please click on my profile and email me privately.  Just in case your senses are wrong.

But again, I do appreciate you taking the time to write an intelligent, articulate response.

I'll get you tomorrow!  (But before I respond publicly, please tell me your privacy concerns via email.  Just in case you think I'm gay and you're going to out me or something.  Ha!  Just kidding.  But I have no idea what you meant in the last paragraph.)

Mar 25, 2010 04:41 PM #14
Rainmaker
73,627
Tarris Rogers
Cascade Sotheby's International Realty - Bend, OR
Bend Oregon Real Estate

Wow Matthew, you seemed to have hit on a sensitive subject given all the responses.  You asked me what my thoughts are about people putting themselves into voluntary slavery.  I'm assuming you meant by feeding off the government through social programs.

I agree that there are probably quite a few people who are very capable of working but have developed a lazy attitude and are taking advantage of programs that were designed to help the truly poor.  But there are also many who don't have family members to act as a safety net or have been ravaged by sickness or have mental illnesses that are in need of help.  I am grateful that this government has in place programs for people who through no fault of their own or unforseen tragedies may need government assistance to get through rought times. Again, I also understand your concern over the moochers who live off the system.

As I mentioned in my last comment, man's governments cannot and will not ever be able to solve the insurmountable and growing ills of society.  That will be done through God's Kingdom when he establishes His government on earth.  I love the words that Jesus gave to the Apostle John to write when he described what that kingdom is going to do for mankind at Revelation 21:3,4 where it is promised, "With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look!  The tent of God is with MANKIND, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples.  And God himself will be with them.  And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.  The FORMER THINGS have passed away."

Until that time is upon us we must bear up under the circumstance that we now find ourselves in.  When you speak of taxes and the burdens that are placed upon society I'm reminded of the question that the Pharisees put to Jesus about paying taxes.  As I'm sure you'll remember, the Jews were heavily taxed under Roman rule which caused a lot of anguish among the Jews of that time.  The Pharisees asked Jesus at Matthew 22:17, "Tell us, therefore, What do you think?  Is it lawful to pay head tax to Caesar or not?"  In verse 19 Jesus replied, "Show me the head tax coin."  They brought him a denarius.  And he said to them: Whose image and inscription is this?  They said: Caesar's.  They he said to them "Pay back therefore Caesar's things to Caesar, but God's things to God." 

At Romans 13:1-8 the Apostle Paul acknowledged that mans governments can be bad and make bad decisions but that we need to be in subjection to the superior authorities since God is allowing them to stand in their relative position at this present time.  In verse 2 Paul said, "Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves."  continuing in verse 6 it says "For that is why you are also paying taxes, for they are God's public servants constantly serving this very purpose.  Render to all their dues, to him who calls for the tax, the tax; to him who calls for the tribute, the tribute, to him who calls for fear, such fear, to him who calls for honor, such honor."

The United States as well as most other governments of this earth collect taxes and uses that money as they see fit.  My responsibility is to pay what I owe and it is not up to me to decide how they will use the money that is theirs or rise up in opposistion.  Where mans laws conflict with God's laws, I'll obey God's over mans in harmony with paying back God's things to God. 

While we as citizens may not agree with how governments choose to exercise their authority, I remember that they will have an accounting before God in how they choose to use their authority, as will those who purposely take advantage of the system.  Unlike me, Jesus can read a persons heart and knows what they truly are.  I am at a place in my life where I can find peace in knowing it is not my job to judge others but rather to follow the two greatest commandments placed upon man which is to Love God with your whole being and to love your neighbor as yourself.  Think about what life will be like under God's Kingdom where everyone is doing those two things and would never think of taking advantage of another.  Everyone will want to help one another and find joy in their work.  Best of all, Psalms 37:29 says, "The righteous themselves will possess the Earth and they will reside FOREVER upon it." 

Knowing that helps me to deal with the pressures I and everyone else around me face right now.  I apologize if my response is a bit long winded but I wanted to answer your question as best I could.

MICHAEL - I'm so sorry to hear about your loss.  I'll have been married to my wife for 20 years this May and could not fathom the kind of grief that takes place from the loss of a dear wife.  Just remember that Jesus performed the miracles of ressurection so that he had eyewitnesses to the fact that he held power over death itself.  Even though you and I weren't there to observe it, Jesus enemies were not able to deny or refute his ability to do it and that is why to this day, there is not a single archeological document to refute what he did when he lived here on earth.

He promised at John 5:28 "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgement."  I have no doubt that your wife will be brought back and reunited with you under conditions far different than what we see around us today.  The best part is, just as Revelation 21:4 said, "The former things have passed away."  I'm sure your loss is still very painful, but you will see her again as surely as the sun rises each and every day and you will finally be able to forget the pain and grief you have experienced.  My prayers go with you and I wish you the very best!!!

Mar 25, 2010 09:30 PM #15
Rainmaker
236,074
SEO Expert: Michael George
Phoenix, AZ
Real Estate and Law Firm SEO

Matthew--

I have to drop this argument right now, because I had a miracle happen yesterday.

Please read my latest post if you want to be amazed beyond belief.  It will move you to tears.

http://activerain.com/blogsview/1567126/please-read-this-a-genuine-miracle-i-need-to-share-an-act-of-god

Mar 26, 2010 05:11 AM #16
Rainer
19,409
Matthew P. Klein
The Real Estate Corner - Cleveland, OH

Michael,

Congrats, I pray that this seed will bear great fruit in your life.

 

Mar 26, 2010 03:30 PM #17
Rainer
19,409
Matthew P. Klein
The Real Estate Corner - Cleveland, OH

Tarris,

Alright, the evening is through. If I may have your indulgence.....

The family is the first safety net. The welfare state has made it easy for families to stay seperated and avoid confronting their problems. It's much easier for a family member to say "I don't need you, I'll get my money from the government" and disappear. One look at the inner city disasters will tell you that is EXACTLY what is happening. The second route is the Churches. Again, I find it hard to believe that every single church would reject helping a soul such as Michael's. Even if it is so, there are plenty of privately funded charities that exist and that would be the third option to look over. I almost overlooked friends, and Michael recieved an outpouring from people who didn't even know him or barely knew him on AR.

Since we were brought up in a soceity where (at least for the moment) we have a platform to voice our opinions, I will continue to do. If I have to pay, I'll have to pay but if I'd like to see things change I can voice my opinion and try to dissuade and persuade on whatever arguement I choose. AR is one platform that I have chosen to do so.

Ultimately, God is in control. The battle we fight against the powers behind the throne as Paul related in his epistles. Prayer is the weapon. I'll be praying and I'm sure you will be too.

Mar 26, 2010 04:02 PM #18
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