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Just because it's Policy, does that make it Right?

By
Real Estate Sales Representative with eXp Realty, Victoria BC www.pfanntastic.com

even an uphill battle feels like paradiseIn our Beautiful area around Greater Victoria BC, we call paradise, there are some things that make me wonder why, to change things here sometimes feels like an uphill battle,  so I turn to you for answers.

In The Victoria Real Estate Board we now have a Policy that requires us (the listing agent) to attach to our listings a title search and a property condition disclosure statement. These attachments are accessible by any other member of our real estate board at any time at their choosing.

By way of this new policy we are making these documents available to other realtors, as such any client of a Realtor may request to obtain this information from their respective agent, regardless if the client is at all interested in the property.

My Concern with this is that although both title searches as well as the disclosure statements are important parts of the selling process, there is a time and place for these documents to become part of the contract.

It would appear to me, that this potentially causes privacy issues, potential mis-use of information issues, and does not serve the sellers in all but very few instances.

We know that title searches can be obtained by anyone about any property but the time it takes and the cost involved ($10 to $ 15.00) tends to deter most instances of potential mis-use. Now this information becomes available for free and instantly.

Title searches may convey information that may indicate personal and or financial issues to what may be at the advantage to a buyer in the negotiations process. Yes the information can be obtained by the buyer independently, but is the seller required to present it proactively ?

A property disclosure statement may offer the same advantages to buyers, but could also deter buyers from even making an offer all together due to confusing or unclear information being provided, again is the seller obligated to provide this information and possibly loose potential buyers, before being able to clarify the potential none-issue?

At the time of the listing we are clearly working on behalf of the seller, is it in the sellers best interest to offer this information this early in the process of a prospect becoming a buyer?

What is next, attach all the strata documents, Form B (BC only), Financial statements for businesses, lease and rental agreements, all the covenants? How about asking Buyers for their Bank statements, proof of ability, agency commitment.

Don't get me wrong, I am convinced that the title and disclosure information should be provided, but is it right to do so before a contract exists? At that time with using proper clauses, all parties can and will be protected from being bound to a contract that makes no sense.

I am contemplating  to formally challenge the Victoria Real Estate Board on the further implementation of this policy that requires us to submit both a title search and a Property Condition Disclosure within very limited time with the listing on the Realtor component of the MLS system (it is not directly available to the general public).

Penalty of Breach of this policy include, removal of the listing, reprimand of the agent and or agency, and possibly suspension from the membership to the board, regardless of what our instructions are from our clients. What I call this the Big Stick approach.

I am very curious what other think about this both as Realtors as well as members of the general public, so I would love to read and review your feedback. Am I wrong to think that this policy (eventhough I understand why they came up with it) is potentially causing more problems than what it intents to solve?

 

 

Posted by

 

 

 

Peter Pfann,

CPCA, ABR, SRES, E-Pro, IMSD, Master ASA, C-CREC, Associate Broker.

Text or Talk To Peter @: (1) 250 - 213 - 9490  

peterpfann@gmail.com  www.pfanntastic.com

Pfanntastic Properties in Victoria, BC, Canada, @ Fair  Realty Since 1986.

Regional office: 1540 Fort St Victoria, BC V8S 5J2

 

Gary Woltal
Keller Williams Realty - Flower Mound, TX
Assoc. Broker Realtor SFR Dallas Ft. Worth

Point well taken in the cart before the horse scenario. Definitely looks like a valid case in the privacy area.

Aug 18, 2010 06:28 AM
Lesley Wagstaff
Re/Max Results Realty in Vancouver, BC - Coquitlam, BC
For Real Estate and Mortgages

I would be okay with someone who is sincerely interested in the property seeing this information, but if they do not have any intention of going ahead with purchasing the property, then I do not think it should be "Public" information.  That being said, I have shown properties where the listing realtors have attached the PDS and Title search to the information package at the house.  I also feel that the listing saleman should know the property well enough and have read the documents themselves and be able to disclose up front if there is an issue.

Aug 18, 2010 06:29 AM
Terry Lynch
LAR Notary and Closing Services - Saint Clair Shores, MI

The title search only contains information that is public record. Why would that be an issue?

Aug 18, 2010 06:29 AM
Peter Pfann @ eXp Realty Pfanntastic Properties in Victoria, Since 1986.
eXp Realty, Victoria BC www.pfanntastic.com - Victoria, BC
Talk To or Text Peter 250-213-9490

Hi Tom,

Our disclosures are not law, but common, and I agree in giving as much information as possible, but timing is everything in a fragile market, in my mind to much too early is not always a good thing.

Aug 18, 2010 06:39 AM
Peter Pfann @ eXp Realty Pfanntastic Properties in Victoria, Since 1986.
eXp Realty, Victoria BC www.pfanntastic.com - Victoria, BC
Talk To or Text Peter 250-213-9490

Hi Don

Thanks for your reply,

you mentioned

Remember, the board is run by you and the other members. If the membership agrees with you, it should be easy to overturn that rulling particularly if it is only a "policy" and not a point of law.

 

in our board that is only done by way of brining an amendment onto the agenda to an AGM Otherwise it becomes a political battle to get enough directors to accept views by the member to revisit a policy (never happens in relatity)

Aug 18, 2010 06:43 AM
Peter Pfann @ eXp Realty Pfanntastic Properties in Victoria, Since 1986.
eXp Realty, Victoria BC www.pfanntastic.com - Victoria, BC
Talk To or Text Peter 250-213-9490

HI Drick,

Thank you for your comment, and yes you are correct, I am being a bit of a devil's advocate here, in reality it is not likely that much if any abuse will occur.

But here is a twist, you have a client/ lawyer and he asks you to provide the title searches for a whole bunch of people..... you see where I am going.

 

How about a contractor client asking for disclosure statements for 100 houses a week so that he can solicit business.......

Yes it should never play out that way, but who is going to find out and when they do it will be a big blunder on all of us....

Aug 18, 2010 06:50 AM
Peter Pfann @ eXp Realty Pfanntastic Properties in Victoria, Since 1986.
eXp Realty, Victoria BC www.pfanntastic.com - Victoria, BC
Talk To or Text Peter 250-213-9490

Hi Patrick,

Thank you for your feedback and as you are in our area, you know the drill better than most. I agree that we are in the service business...... Servicing our clients that is,

I agree making essential information available to agents if and when relevant to them and or their clients is important and being able to provide buyers and their clients with the correct and complete information in a timely fashion is important.

I do feel that the method employed by the board leaves it way open for abuse and potentially a major disadvantage for the sellers, and as we are at the time of listing working solely for the seller, how can we possibly justify this rather public disclosure and at the same time argue that we are working in their best interest....

It is the trend in our board to use blanket solutions for minor individual infractions..... If a few agents were abusing the old system, they will still find a way to do so now.

In fact I would suspect that now more and more Agents will recommend that the disclosure is not completed by the sellers (as is the common recommendation by most lawyers already) Is that the way we want it......?

 

 

Aug 18, 2010 06:59 AM
Peter Pfann @ eXp Realty Pfanntastic Properties in Victoria, Since 1986.
eXp Realty, Victoria BC www.pfanntastic.com - Victoria, BC
Talk To or Text Peter 250-213-9490

HI Gary and Lesley,

Thank you for your feedback and comments.

Lesley,

your approach suggestion is more or less the way it was, and to me it seems to be the more logical method.

Aug 18, 2010 07:02 AM
Peter Pfann @ eXp Realty Pfanntastic Properties in Victoria, Since 1986.
eXp Realty, Victoria BC www.pfanntastic.com - Victoria, BC
Talk To or Text Peter 250-213-9490

HI Terry,

You are correct they are public, but not free, by having to pay for them and or having to go either register on line for an account or going to land titles office in person, one automatically seperates the lookers from those that may not have an appropriate need or use for the information at all.

Again I am not suggesting to not make the information available, but that there should be a higher threshold for access than just having the property listed.

for example, try to go to the hydro company and get property information from them without having proper authorization for it (letter from the owner required)

Is the information public or not, that is a good question, should it be this public....... no way, it can do more harm than good in my opinion on behalf of a seller.

Now if and when I am working for a buyer, off course I want all the info, as the buyer is my primary concern, and all the "dirt" I can find about a seller I will and are obligated to disclose to my client.......

 

Aug 18, 2010 07:11 AM
Curt Hess
ExecuHome Realty - Annapolis, MD
Luxury Home Consultant, Team Leader & CEO

Linda/Peter, you get to live in one of the most beautiful places on earth. My wife and I visited the Island last year and didn't want to come back to Maryland. Every time I visit Canada, I'm more impressed with the people's temperaments, and the quality of life I see being lived by all y'all.

Aug 18, 2010 07:14 AM
Peter Pfann @ eXp Realty Pfanntastic Properties in Victoria, Since 1986.
eXp Realty, Victoria BC www.pfanntastic.com - Victoria, BC
Talk To or Text Peter 250-213-9490

HI Curt,

Thank you for your comments, I moved her in 1986 from Holland, and I agree with you it is amazing the natural Beauty.

I have never been in Maryland, so one day you and I should swap places for a week, I do your job, you do ours.....

Aug 18, 2010 07:33 AM
Vince McEveety
Gilleran Griffin Realty - Sherman Oaks, CA

i'd love to know if your challenge holds

the gov't is micromanaging ever more aspects of our lives - business and otherwise

stand up and fight!

Aug 18, 2010 08:55 AM
Peter Pfann @ eXp Realty Pfanntastic Properties in Victoria, Since 1986.
eXp Realty, Victoria BC www.pfanntastic.com - Victoria, BC
Talk To or Text Peter 250-213-9490

Hi Vince,

Thank you for your comment,  we are still standing!

Aug 18, 2010 09:21 AM
Fred Hookham
Keller Williams - Milton, WI

Here in Wisconsin, the property condition report is required, with very few exceptions. Ours are usually uploaded to the MLS and downloaded by the showing agent prior to making an offer. There is plenty of room for explanations by the seller on the standard form, and in my opinion, it facilitates a smoother transaction. Buyers are aware of potential issues, and can write offers with the appropriate inspection contingencies, or they can examine the house themselves and decide up front if they want to get involved. Looking for an "out" after the offer is accepted is never pretty, and wastes everyone's time. (Lead-based paint disclosures work the same way.)

I'm with you on the title information not being required, because our offers require the seller to provide clear title. When I'm the Buyer's agent, I don't care how they provide clear title. The house is worth what it's worth, whether or not there's a quit claim deed from the divorcing spouse, whether it's an estate or what ever.

Aug 18, 2010 09:50 AM
Peter Pfann @ eXp Realty Pfanntastic Properties in Victoria, Since 1986.
eXp Realty, Victoria BC www.pfanntastic.com - Victoria, BC
Talk To or Text Peter 250-213-9490

HI Fred,

Thank you for your comments and insight, I appreciate it.

Things like lead paint, radon gas, asbestos insulation, certificates and a variety of other issues common in the USA, and not even part of our disclosure statements.....

That does not mean that the issues do not exsist, they are just not yet part of the requirements of disclosure. I guess our lawyers are not as aggressive as yours........;0)

Happy selling.

Aug 18, 2010 11:08 AM
Roland Woodworth
Blue Cord Realty - Clarksville, TN
Blue Cord Realty

We post the property condition disclosure, confirmation of agency and other related disclosures in the MLS. I've never heard of a title search in the MLS. This is normally completed by the Title Company

Aug 18, 2010 03:21 PM
Peter Pfann @ eXp Realty Pfanntastic Properties in Victoria, Since 1986.
eXp Realty, Victoria BC www.pfanntastic.com - Victoria, BC
Talk To or Text Peter 250-213-9490

Hi Roland,

thank you for your feedback and comments, title searches here are public records that about as good as it gets in getting information about ownership, finaning and any land related issues.

thanks again,

Aug 18, 2010 03:42 PM
Peter Pfann @ eXp Realty Pfanntastic Properties in Victoria, Since 1986.
eXp Realty, Victoria BC www.pfanntastic.com - Victoria, BC
Talk To or Text Peter 250-213-9490

Hi John,

thank you for your comment, that was the same here until recently, now even if the buyers have received the disclosure,  they will often re-negotiate based on the inspection results regardless if references where included in the disclosure.

 

happy selling

Aug 22, 2010 02:32 PM
Fred Carver Real Estate Consulant
Retired BC Realtor - Victoria, BC
Accredited Real Estate Consultant

Hi Peter...Congratulations on your feature post,

I do not agree with you "regarding putting up the title search and Property Disclosure Statement"  as a privacy issue" on our listings. Only Realtors see this, and they need this information. Nobody I know is printing off title searches and PDS's to hand out to the public. Nor should they. We have rules with our board to address this. It's like a bank printing off personal information about a customers mortgage etc..you and I do not do this, nobody in Victoria that is a licensed Realtor that I know does this.

The VREB did not just decide to do this, the VREB board Solicitor reviewed this before it was made mandatory for all members to add to every listings. We need to know who is on title and if there are restrictive covenants etc before making written offers(or completing a listing contract).

We as Realtors need this information available to confirm accuracy when writing contracts, as for PDS, it's all about disclosure, Buyers want and need to know what they are buying, so a sellers property disclosure is very important for a Buyer to read ahead of making an offer to purchase.

Cheers

Aug 24, 2010 04:55 AM
Peter Pfann @ eXp Realty Pfanntastic Properties in Victoria, Since 1986.
eXp Realty, Victoria BC www.pfanntastic.com - Victoria, BC
Talk To or Text Peter 250-213-9490

Hi Fred,

Thank you for your comments and feedback, I appreciate it and understand your position on the issue.

It is not that I expect a whole bunch of abuse, however under the old system the listing agent and seller had control of the flow of potentially harmfull and personal information, now this control is handed over to 1,300 hungry agents and their clients.

You are coorect, that we need this information to prepare contracts and represent our clients in the best possible way, but there is a time and place where this is prudent and relevant.

The reasons given to make this change, as I was told by the current president of the board, was there where a number of agents not getting title and or pcds to agents requesting them "fast enough" or not at all......

As some have pointed out, the title is a public document, if it is that essential why does a buyer agent not pull a title them selves....... we both know why, because they are cheap, and do not want to spend the money, just in case the buyer does not proceed......

You and I have been around long enough to remember the days of no information at all and to never get ourselves on thin ice about this. However the potential for abuse is a little too easy and too uncontrolable, in very much the same way why the Fintrac papers we are now collecting eventually will become a big problem, when one of the 1,300 agents cleans out his / her storage and puts all this confidential information on the curb....

The Part that seems to be ignored is "how do Sellers and or their lawyers feel about this" are they not our clients, are they not owed a voice and choice in the matter...... As many jurisdictions have already experienced, sellers and their lawyers are more and more refusing to complete the disclosures and can not be forced to do so, for very obvious reasons.

We have been selling real estate for hundreds of years in North America, and have done so without having these documents becoming too public too soon to potentially way too many people

I am all for improving the industry and business, this change seems more like fixing a pin hole leak by opening a potenial floodgate of problems.

This is a trend at our board, "fixing bad agents by changing the rules for everybody" rather than "fixing or removing the bad agents one at the time by policing the policies already in place"

Again just because it is convenient and easy for us, does not make it the right thing to do.....

Fred, Thanks again for your comments and response, I have a lot of respect for your input and insights, you are a true professional. 

I understand your point of view on this matter, however I am not as confident that ALL our peers are as ehtical and professional as you are, and I would hate to be in a situation where this backfires on our industry.

 

Happy Selling

Aug 24, 2010 05:52 AM