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No Money Down, where art thou?

By
Real Estate Agent with CENTURY 21 All Islands

About three years ago, Honolulu was inundated with an avalanche of "No Money Down" seminars. People like Robert A***n, Carlton Sh**ts and others made a killing on the hot market frenzy in full swing at the time, and filled up venues at the Hawaii Convention Center and the Blaisdell Arena.

The evidence that these seminars had come to town would be hard to miss in the following weeks. Just as mushrooms sprout in the pastures after a long soaking rain, the "We Buy Houses" signs, purposefully scribbled in crayon on cardboard, would sprout along roadsides and at neighborhood intersections.

This year however, there was something different. At my open houses, I did not have the usual influx of "investor" clients handing me their new VistaPrint business cards, affirming their status as serious "investors". There was none of the dialog formatted to convince me, the real estate agent, that this "investor" would be bringing me big business; I just have to find him the "right" properties, and soon we will both be rolling in dough. This year, I only noticed two such seminars that came to town, as I could not miss the full page ads in the Sunday papers. But there was no explosion of "We Buy Houses" signs in the weeks that followed. 

For this, I give thanks. I am thankful that people seem to have wised up to these snakes in the grass. I am thankful that the public has not wasted their hard earned money chasing the pipe dream that these late night TV Seminar Evangelists have poisoned the airwaves with. Most of all, I am thankful that there will be less misinformation and propaganda to counter in the weeks and months ahead.

For example, I will name two of my favorite (or should I say, least favorite) examples of the type of damage these seminars promulgate.

Example 1. Seminar students are encouraged to purchase properties using the "Subject To" clause, as in subject to the underlying mortgage. This is legal, but it is extremely high risk to the property seller. In this situation, the seller relinguishes title to their property, and the "investor" promises to make the payments to the seller's underlying mortgage. The "Investor" may, or may not make the payments. He probably will sell the property to someone else, and actually convey legal title. The Seller is still liable for the original mortgage, which may or may not have been paid. Also, most mortgages today have an alienation clause which entitles the lender to demand payment in full if the homeowner transfers his interest in the property. The seminars actually tell their students not to worry about this, the lenders don't care who pays as long as they get paid. What do you think?

Example 2. Students are encouraged to become bird dogs for the Seminarians. And the students are actually paying for the privilege. Imagine that; they pay to go to the seminar, then the host "graciuosly" asserts that if the student finds a true deal on a property, but does not have the cash to get the property tied up, the host will generously fund the purchase and give the student a finders fee. The teacher gets the deal; the student gets a few crumbs.

There are lots of other crazy tidbits that could be mentioned, such as students taking options on properties, then trying to sell them for a profit before the option expires, sandwiching, trying to get escrow companies to go along with their schemes, writing their own contracts, etc. But for now, it seems as if Honolulu has wised up, and for now "No Money Down" seems to have left town. Good riddance!

P.S. I do wonder if the legitimate 100% financing may have put a dent in these schemes. If so, GREAT!

Kaushik Sirkar
Call Realty, Inc. - Chandler, AZ
I just want to comment to Michael and Bill - this is a great discussion.  Not everyone has to agree!  Disagreement, when done respectfully, is a wonderful thing!
Nov 29, 2006 06:06 AM
William J. Archambault, Jr.
The Real Estate Investment Institute - Houston, TX

Kaushik,

There is no right or wrong here, just different perspectives.

I don't yet know Michael but I'd bet we agree on a lot more than we'd disagree on.

Bill

Nov 29, 2006 06:34 AM
John Hruska
Homes Charlotte, LLC - Charlotte, NC

Hi Michael,

I would agree in part with the "No Money Down" program.  However, it is working well in certain areas of the country.  Robert "A" is back in action in the midwest with late night infomercials. 

Nov 29, 2006 06:57 AM
Randy L. Prothero
eXp Realty - Hollister, MO
Missouri REALTOR, (808) 384-5645

Michael - Great Post!!!! 

It has some similarities to my post Get Rich Quick or Just Dummies?

You have stirred up a brisk discussion.  Just because someone is making

money holding seminars does not make it a good thing.  Michael, you hit it on the head.  You said just what many of us feel.

I am also glad to see a lot less of the "I Buy Homes" littering the sides of our roads.

I feel the question about whether the alienation clause was exercised or not is irrelevant.  The people I have seen in our area do not even mention this risk to the sellers. 

In our Hawaii market these tactics were not used in most cases to save someone from foreclosure.  They were used to separate an owner with lots of equity from his home for less than he could have gotten on the open market.  In some cases the buyer never made mortgage payments and the seller's credit was wrecked.  If the buyer can't flip it for a profit fast they just walk away and leave the poor seller sucking wind.  In Hawaii very few of these are penciling out with positive cash flow so holding is rarely part of the plan.

I know I probably am poking a few who disagree with me.  I had a similar argument with Realtors who do mortgages.  Their argument was how much money I could make.  My response was drug dealers make lots of money and I won't do that either.

Nov 29, 2006 07:41 AM
Betsy Locke
Cash Now Realty - Charlotte, NC

Michael,

Prior to becoming a Broker and Auctioneer, along with my husband we purchased and sold over 500 properties using the Subject To method, so this method does work and we have never purchased a Guru course.

Then about one year ago I became a Broker and Auctioneer, because we realized that all these ARM and No Interest loans would be coming due so we changed course so to speak.  We saw where the foreclosure market would start to rise and normal creative investing methods would start to decline as you mentioned they are currently doing.

 

What our plans are along with helping home owners sell their properties in a fast and proven method, we added the “Short Sale” Auction Method for the home owners that needed help.   The majority of these home owners cannot use conventional methods to sell because normally there is not enough equity to warrant a commission or in declining markets the property may not be worth what is owed.

We have created a win/win/win situation for these people using our short sale auction method.   A broker can still be involved and receive a commission, whereas they might not have been able to if the conventional method was used on the pre foreclosure properties.

There are different methods that can be used to help home owners albeit creative or conventional. Working together is what helps all of us learn and provides solutions to get the job done.

Nov 29, 2006 07:52 AM
Michael S. Mackey
CENTURY 21 All Islands - Mililani, HI
REALTOR ABR, CRS, GRI, RSPS

Wow, great responses everyone!

Randy you summed it up very nicely. Thank You.

Craig, In principle, I agree with almost everything you say. I bought my first three properties after being inspired by Robert A's first book back in 1977. Yes, there are valuable lessons to be learned, if you can cut through the c**p and are willing to work at it, and if you can get the necessary funding.

Bill , I think you are saying what I am saying. The seminars are a rip off, e.g., $150,000 for tapes and books of little value. Sorry you don't like my examples. Example 1 I think is adequately defended in Randy Prothero's comments. There are better forms of alternative structuring. As for my Example 2., I did not knock bird dogging. I knocked the idea of paying for a seminar just so you could become a bird dog.

Kaushik thanks for reminding everyone to agree to disagree tactfully!

Scott, Tony, Eddie, Rich and John Thank you all for your valuable comments as well. I should have guessed the seminarians have found other fruit to pick!

Nov 29, 2006 08:13 AM
Michael S. Mackey
CENTURY 21 All Islands - Mililani, HI
REALTOR ABR, CRS, GRI, RSPS

Betsy, your comment came in while I was typing up my responses. Thank you for your input! I can appreciate what you and your husband are doing, and I commend you for doing so with a sense of ethics and morality. You are absolutely right, there are certainly situations where the standard models will not work for people and alternatives must be found. I am so glad that you did not waste your money at any of those seminars!

The point I wanted to emphasize is that the seminars that I am familiar with only superficially pose as a salvation provider for the truly desperate, and claim that they provide a win/win for everyone. Because they do not explain the pitfalls of certain methods, and whitewash the risks that can be had, they make all solutions they preach appear to be no-brainers. Certainly, the "Subject To" clause is a legal option, but there are huge risks associated with it. As Randy said, none of these risks is ever even mentioned at these seminars.

There is validity to what they preach, it's how they preach it that is offensive.

Nov 29, 2006 08:24 AM
Tom Burris
NMLS# 335055 - Baton Rouge, LA
Texas/Louisiana Mortgage Pro - 13 YRS Experience

i hate it when this happens too....

i gets calls from people with 500 fico scores and NOOOOO money trying to qualify for 100% investor loans.

 

sigh

 

Nov 29, 2006 09:41 AM
Sean Carroll
The Get Off Your A$$ Academy - Manhattan, NY
Real Estate Speaker and "Expert" Coach
I echo everything that's been said. There are creative options that can and do work, but as Michael said, cutting through the cr*p is essential. i got started with the "no money down" CD's several years ago, and what it basically did was inspire me to do further research and seek professionals who had experience with investing in real estate. 4 years later, I bought my first investment property. It certainly didn't happen "quick" like the courses promise. I had to learn the business from honest, dependable people who have done it.
Nov 29, 2006 10:52 AM
Netta Blackwood
La Rosa Realty - Kissimmee, FL
REO/BPO Expert
...buyers are getting smarter.  Once bitten-twice-shy.
Nov 29, 2006 11:35 AM
Kaye Thomas
Real Estate West - Manhattan Beach, CA
e-PRO, Manhattan Beach CA
I always know who watches late nigh TV.. and who went to the latest seminar.. Yes it may work for some people but not for most of the population.. cuz if it was so easy why are these guys hawking the courses instead of collecting their millions..
Nov 29, 2006 12:38 PM
Betsy Locke
Cash Now Realty - Charlotte, NC

Kaye,

Had to chuckle a little over your question, as they are collecting their millions, only not from real estate investing.

Some of these type of Guru's materials are owned by marketing companies, they are basically figure heads who collect their money as a paid spokesperson.

I can just imagine the marketing meeting for the next infomercial going something like this.  "how about throwing in this secret method, we don't know if it will work, but it will sure sell more product." 

Nov 29, 2006 01:01 PM
Patrick Sharples
Realty ONE Group - Anaheim, CA
Commercial ~ Investment ~ Leasing ~ Residential

We Buy Homes................

If I had the money, I would buy anyones home for $100-200K under its market value too. Desperate people in desperate situations don't realize how much they are being taken advantage of until its way too late. Or they are just in denial over it.

Nov 29, 2006 02:01 PM
Robert D. Ashby
Cruise Planners of South Florida - Plantation, FL
Providing Personalized Travel

Interesting post and comments.  Coming from the mortgage side of things, I realte these seminars to the advertising regarding Pay Option ARMs.

They are heavily advertised and presented as if the 1% rate is an interest rate and not the rate the payment is based on.  The risks are not presented, only the rewards.  As such, way too many homeowners got into these programs that had no business being in them!

Are the POA programs good?  Yes, they can be the best thing for some clients, but you have to seek the true professionals and decide if they are the best thing for you.

As you can see, the POAs and the way they are advertised are very much like the way the seminars you mentioned are presented.  One sided presentations of a potentially good strategy that can have disasterous results if not handled properly!

Nov 29, 2006 02:16 PM
Adam Tarr
MavRealty - Phoenix, AZ
PC -GRI, ABR, CDPE, RSPS, ePro - Designated Broker
I recently heard someone refer to one of the men as Carlton Full of Sh**ts.  There is definitely a place for the no money down and the wise investor.  Unfortunately, as it is with many "get Rich Quick" ideas, there are few people that actually do, except for the ones hawking the stuff.  The savvy investor will do well, and the poor folks who spend money for these things typically just end up spending the money.
Nov 29, 2006 02:43 PM
ASHEVILLE REALTY REFERRAL RESOURCE 828-776-0779
REAL ESTATE REFERRAL NETWORK - Asheville, NC
CONTACT janeAnne365@gmail.com
I know a couple from Seattle who did the No Money Down Thing...they were not successful, but working together to see if they could make money in real estate saved their marriage...so I guess there could be that upside....
Nov 29, 2006 04:11 PM
Suzanne Marriott
Keller Williams Arizona Realty - Anthem, AZ
Associate Broker, CLHMS, e-PRO
Now this is a really excellent and informative post!  I'm grateful you took the time to detail the issue and at least one potential solution.  Thanks for the post!
Nov 29, 2006 05:28 PM
Craig Bartels
The Indy Realty Shop - Indianapolis, IN

the problem most people have is actually taking action.  Everytime I go to a siminar, I am blown away by how many people are not doing anything.  I would say between 90-95% of the people at any siminar have never purchased a piece of investment property.

Why do I continue to go to the siminars?  Just one great idea from a two day course will net me 10-20-50k.  Well worth it for just that one new idea.

 

 

 

Nov 29, 2006 08:32 PM
Leo Namiot - LeoLends.com
Canopy Mortgage - Leo Namiot - Saint Augustine, FL
More than just great rates

Great information.... Anyone Remember Tommy Woo?

Well he's in jail or at least was.

Some of these late night TV shows make it sound sop easy, everyone thinks they can do it

Nov 30, 2006 02:34 AM
Randy L. Prothero
eXp Realty - Hollister, MO
Missouri REALTOR, (808) 384-5645

Just remember at least according to the commercials Woo got all the girls.  That is as long as he didn't lie about that.

Nov 30, 2006 03:09 AM