Murder In Sanford Florida - No One Has Mentioned This

By
Real Estate Agent

Since the shooting of Trayvon Martin the "Stand Your ground Law" has come under extreme criticism. 

Earlier this week I wrote another blog about this before it gathered nationwide steam.

http://activerain.com/blogsview/3076805/murder-in-sanford-florida-speak-up-and-speak-out-

There is a movement a foot to have George Zimmermans concealed gun permit revoked.

There are other voices demanding that Stand Your Ground be repealed.
CBS NEWS REPORT

Hand Gun
CASTLE LAW
Most states have a version of the Castle Law.  Basically it says your home is your castle. If an intruder forces you into a position in your own home where you have no place to flee, and you fear for your life,  you are justified in shooting them.

STAND YOUR GROUND

The Stand Your Ground law operates on the same premise as the Castle Law except it is applied outside the home.  If you are being attacked out in the open, like a parking lot in a mall, and have no way to escape, and no help is available,  and you fear for your life, you are justified in shooting the perpetrator. The onus is on the shooter to make a case that they indeed feared for their life or safety.  The threat has to be real.

OPEN CARRY
Florida is an open carry state.  In other words.  Any citizen may wear a holster and carry a gun as long as it is in plain sight at all times without a special permit. Many states are open carry.  Virginia and Pennsylvania are two that I can think of off hand.

CONCEALED WEAPONS PERMIT

Every state has a provision for a citizen to apply for and if qualified receive a concealed weapons permit for personal protection.  The gun may be carried in a holster or other device hidden from view. Qualification varies from state to state.

  • Every person who carries concealed should know the law and the definition of personal self defense.  It is not a license to be a vigilante or run around like Charles Bronson righting the wrongs. I have and do carry concealed from time to time since the 1980's.  I have an obligation when I carry to use discretion with deadly force and not be a hot head.


If I am in a Convenience store and one or more people come in and attempt to rob the clerk, I cannot whip out a gun and shoot them. They can be beating the tar out of the clerk and as long as they do not threaten me or point a weapon at me I have to stay out of it. Unlike an off duty police officer, I have no protection under the law if I act.  I can only resort to using that gun if I FEAR FOR MY LIFE. 

  • I do not have a license that allows me to defend another person (other than a family member) nor does it allow me to use it to defend property which belongs to another. They can rob the Convenience store and I have no right to interfere with them.


FLORIDA G GUN PERMIT
In Florida all security personnel either employed by an agency or directly by an employer to be armed must carry a "G" gun permit.

What's the difference from a concealed or personal carry?  Mandated security training and proof of proficiency.  Extensive background checks and finger printing. Why do they need a special permit?  It's the law in Florida if you are acting in the capacity of a guard or security officer. Only the G license issued in Florida gives an individual the right to use deadly force to protect the property or employees of the company or employer.

Additionally those persons licensed with a G permit carry openly.  They are not undercover police - the public sees their weapon in full view.

  • George Zimmerman had a personal concealed weapons permit not a G permit.


Consider this:  From all reports George Zimmerman was either a self appointed neighborhood watch commander or he was a volunteer.  He was not in the employ of the HOA. He was not charged with the duty to defend and protect with deadly force.

  • His concealed permit did not allow him to use his weapon EXCEPT for personal protection.


What was George Zimmerman doing that night?  He took it upon himself to patrol the grounds of a complex he did not own, to protect property he did not own. He was not licensed property to perform those duties.

  • In my humble opinion, when faced with the murder of Trayvon the only defense George Zimmerman could use to attempt to save himself was Stand your Ground.


I believe that his actions and his intent, prior to the shooting clearly show he put himself in a situation where he did not have the right to be carrying a fire arm - concealed permit or not.

  • If George Zimmerman was walking through the complex minding his own business and Trayvon Martin attacked him that's an entirely different matter.  That would be a case to use Stand Your Ground if Zimmerman felt his life was in danger.


It is not the law that is the problem in this case.  It is more than likely a convenient legal attempt to save Zimmerman's neck. Should Zimmerman be arrested and made accountable for his actions?  In my opinion YES.

  • I am hoping that this distinction with weapons licensing is brought to the attention of the Grand Jury. I am astounded that the media has not researched this and investigated licensing laws.
  • I also hope the Grand Jury charges Zimmerman with murder.


Loose cannons like George Zimmerman make it bad for those of us who are conscientious gun owners.

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Rainmaker
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Bonnie Vaughan
Scranton, PA
CNE SFR - Buyers/Sellers - Lackawanna & Surroundin

Karl:  Thank you for commenting.  Your comment directed at Fred I have one thing to add.  The uproar which has now caught the media attention was the result of social media.  This case got no attention until it went viral on Facebook.  Then the media grabbed it and internet sites like Change.org put up national petitions.

I am glad the mainstream media has taken this up.  The media has totally missed the point that legally Zimmerman did not hae the right to be in possession of a firearm when he reported for "duty" if you will.

Mar 25, 2012 11:00 PM #15
Rainmaker
244,734
Bonnie Vaughan
Scranton, PA
CNE SFR - Buyers/Sellers - Lackawanna & Surroundin

Another point of clarification.  Personal concealed weapons permits are just that - personal protection. As a Real Estate agent I have every right to carry a gun.  If I am driving through a neighborhood and see a robbery in progress I cannot get out of my car and shoot the guys.  I have to stay in my car and call 911. Armed or not I do not have the right to use a weapon under those circumstances.

Let me use another example to make the point.

In my former life I was employed by the largest armored car company in the United States.  I was a Corporate employee and had the credentials to access any facility, any truck and any Federal Reserve in the United States.  My position made me a potential target for kidnapping.  My job description did not include protecting with deadly force the assets of the company.

Every employee who dealt directly with valuables WAS licensed with an additional license to use deadly force to benefit the employer.  In Florida that license is the G license.  (Other states it may be called something else)

I was permitted to carry concealed with a state issued license for my personal protection.  I had reciprocity with any state jurisdiction if my right to carry was questioned.  That was a professional courtesy extended to employees of armored car companies.

One night I was in a facility in Bangor Maine.  The FBI called the branch to alert us that there was a credible threat to one of our trucks that night.  No one knew which truck and we had 6 either on the road or leaving.  We did not have enough employees at the branch to add a "shot gun" guard to every truck that night.  Including myself there were 5 members of management in the branch.

The nearby Air Force base came over with extra vests and shot guns.  The local Chief of Police came to the facility to deputize members of management to cover the emergency.  If we were not deputized, and we shot someone, we could have been brought up on charges.

This is the point I'm trying to get across with Zimmerman.  He was "on the job" with the intent to protect assets which did not belong to him personally.  Neither his personal concealed nor Stand Your Ground offers him the "right" to use a firearm.

If it turns out that Zimmerman is afforded protection under Stand Your Ground - I'll be the first one to say that law needs to be repealed!

Mar 25, 2012 11:27 PM #16
Rainmaker
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Vern Eaton
Askov, MN
Realtor 651-674-7449

Bonnie, you have covered this very well. if the media would give a FULL account of the laws instead of sound bites people would understnad much more.

Mar 26, 2012 02:34 AM #17
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Jason Sardi
Auto & Home & Life Insurance throughout North Carolina - Charlotte, NC
Your Agent for Life

Wonderful explanations here, Bonnie.  I learned something new today.

From what I already knew and what you outlined here, I'm in agreement with you.

Hope all is well in Pa.

Mar 26, 2012 04:17 AM #18
Rainmaker
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Bonnie Vaughan
Scranton, PA
CNE SFR - Buyers/Sellers - Lackawanna & Surroundin

Vern:  It's frustrating that the public is focusing on the concealed permit and demonizing it, without knowing Zimmerman was actually without the proper license.

Mar 26, 2012 07:00 AM #19
Rainmaker
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Bonnie Vaughan
Scranton, PA
CNE SFR - Buyers/Sellers - Lackawanna & Surroundin

Jason thank you for stopping by.  I'm glad I could shed some light on a confusing issue.  Like I said I'm frustrated the public does not understand the significance.

 

Mar 26, 2012 07:05 AM #20
Rainmaker
161,942
Satar Naghshineh
Satar - Amiri Property and Financial Services Corp. - Irvine, CA

Thanks for the clarification. I do have a question in regards to:

"If it turns out that Zimmerman is afforded protection under Stand Your Ground - I'll be the first one to say that law needs to be repealed!"

Why do you think he wasn't arrested? Apparently the police officers thought he was within his legal rights.

 

Mar 27, 2012 08:55 AM #21
Rainmaker
830,417
Broker Nick
South Florida Real Estate & Development, Inc. - Coconut Creek, FL
Broker Nick Relocation Broker Service

Featured Post Silent Majority - This post is now featured in Silent Majority Group of Active Rain!

Mar 27, 2012 01:07 PM #22
Rainmaker
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Bonnie Vaughan
Scranton, PA
CNE SFR - Buyers/Sellers - Lackawanna & Surroundin

Satar:  You'll see my comments about my former home town Sanford Fl on another post out here.

First if you describe the circumstances as self defense the police are not lawyers.  It is not their job to determine whether or not your intreptation is correct.  It's easy to claim self defense. 

Second - I made the statement about Stand Your Ground after I made a point.  Zimmerman did not carry a G license.  I went into great detail to make the significance of that license understood.  Even a police officer carries a G or higher,  not a concealed.

If he was patrolling the complex he was illegally using his concealed weapons permit.  To carry your gun with the intent of thwarting a robbery of property which is not yours legally you need a G license.  You also MUST carry the weapon in clear sight.

If the court over looks his obligation to optain a G permit and allows him to hide behind Stand Your Ground the law needs to be repealed.  That is not in the sprit or the intent of the law.

That law was for folks like you and me who were going about our business and were attacked out in the open.

Zimmerman was going about the business of the HOA not carrying groceries from his car to his door.  There is a huge distinction legally.

Mar 27, 2012 01:22 PM #23
Rainmaker
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Bonnie Vaughan
Scranton, PA
CNE SFR - Buyers/Sellers - Lackawanna & Surroundin

Nick Thank you for the feature.

Mar 27, 2012 01:25 PM #24
Rainmaker
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Broker Nick
South Florida Real Estate & Development, Inc. - Coconut Creek, FL
Broker Nick Relocation Broker Service

Now they are finding out new things about the attack. Witnesses saw the boy on top of Zimmerman beating him - he had the bruises to prove it. How sad the liberal media tries to do a story without the facts. Alot of people are going to eat their words soon.

Mar 27, 2012 02:19 PM #25
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Fred Griffin Tallahassee Real Estate
Fred Griffin Real Estate - Tallahassee, FL
Licensed Florida Real Estate Broker

Today, in Miami, a mob of Black "Students" ransacked a Walgreens Drug Store.  It is sad comedy to read Mainstream Media's "Apology" of this rioting and looting.

  Obama, Soros, Farakhan, and Sharpton have achieved their Class Warfare Objective.

Mar 27, 2012 02:26 PM #26
Rainmaker
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Bonnie Vaughan
Scranton, PA
CNE SFR - Buyers/Sellers - Lackawanna & Surroundin

Nick: Back up - Zimmerman was stalking Martin. 911 tells him to stand down. He ignores it.  We have no idea how long he followed the kid and what his demeanor was.  Martin was on his phone telling his girlfriend he was scared.

Where were these witnesses from the beginning? The first reports according to Zimmerman, Martin looked suspicious and appeared to be reaching for something in his pants. The act of reaching for something was initially reported as the provocation to shoot Martin.  That put both parties standing on their feet.

Remember this happened February 26.  Zimmermans story only came under scrutiny in the last 10 days.  How come it changed?

Did you also hear the interview with a woman who lives right outside where the scuffle took place? She claimed she heard a child whining.  Not crying not an adult, she said it sounded like a child. So what caused Martin to cry out?  You can't ignore that witness either.

We do not know if Zimmerman came up behind Martin and tried to detain or question him.  We do not know who threw the first punch.  We do not know if one or both of them lost their balance and fell on each other.

Nick - if you are walking through a dark parking lot - unarmed- some guy is following you and approaches you in a menacing way - what are you going to do?  You also have to put yourself in that situation with a 17 year old brain.  You as an adult man might exhibit some restraint until you found out what the guy wanted - but would a teenager?

I heard there was a witness who states Martin was on top of Zimmerman.  If you've ever watched a physical confrontation it's fluid and things happen in split seconds. 

I disagree that this situation was INITIALLY fueled by the Libs.  I was following the story when it was NOT in the headlines.  If you recall my first blog came out BEFORE Sharpton and the rest of them got involved.  It was being spread all over the internet on Facebook. His family started it. That's how I found out about it to start with.

NOW yes, the liberals are running wild with it.  Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton never get involved with an issue unless it is already high profile.

 

Mar 27, 2012 10:36 PM #27
Rainmaker
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Bonnie Vaughan
Scranton, PA
CNE SFR - Buyers/Sellers - Lackawanna & Surroundin

THINK ABOUT THE FOLLOWING AND ASK WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE:

Nick I'm going ask you something else and anyone who is proficient with firearms.  Now that you have handled a gun think about this

You are down on your back - some guy is sitting on you BEATING you - how do you reach your arm across your body to your holster -unsnap the restraint-  remove a gun - release the safety - and PULL BACK THE SLIDE TO CHAMBER A ROUND with both hands ?  After that you have to turn the gun to fire. It's a two handed process.  It was a 9mm not a 38 revolver.  A 38 you do not have to pull back the hammer you can fire without preparation.  This WAS NOT a 38. You could accomplish the move more easily with a 38.

It has to take at least 3 seconds to accomplish the moves with a 9mm - and I'm giving the guy a lot of proficiency and a cool head during those 3 seconds. Wrestling the gun out is no small task.  So tell me - Martin is sitting on Zimmerman facing him and just watches him reaching for his gun and does nothing?  Remember Zimmerman has to have both hands free and mobile to do this.

Cut down the time - yup - you can.  You pre-load the round in the chamber and return the gun to the holster with the safety on  "READY TO SHOOT".  You still have to reach across your body, unsnap the holster , release the safety and turn the gun to shoot.  Not only do you need time = you need clearance.

Again Nick let me ask you what your instructor told you.  Were you told to carry the gun with a round chambered?  No - not for personal protection.  It's dangerous to carry that way. It's even more dangerous to carry without the saftey on.

You only pre-load the round if you are expecting to need it quickly.  Cops have a round chambered - Zimmerman was not a cop.  He was a wanna be.

If he started to patrol the grounds with a round chambered it was a premeditated act.  This complex was not invaded by drug lords or a pit of robberies and rapes.  There was no intell to support that he might expect someone to accost him that night nor was his life in danger.

Zimmerman has a John Wayne sydrome clear and simple.  He was not properly trained to carry a weapon "on the job".  That is proven by the fact he did not possess a G license.  There is more training needed to attain a G license than simply hitting a target.

Here is another question I'd like answered.  What 9mm load did he carry?  Was it a standard load or Hydroshock or Black Talon?  In my prior life working for Brink's our attornies would not allow our employees to load Hydroshock or Black Talons.  Why? It was considered "overkill" and something Brink's did not want to defend in court in the event they killed someone.

Mar 27, 2012 11:15 PM #28
Rainmaker
1,038,271
Rob Arnold
Sand Dollar Realty Group, Inc. - Altamonte Springs, FL
Metro Orlando Full Service - Investor Friendly & F

Just for the record.

Florida is NOT an open carry state.  It is illegal to carry a gun around in a holster out in the open in Florida unless you are law enforcement.

Our Florida "castle doctrine" and "stand your ground" laws do not require you to try and flee or escape. That is why it is called "stand your ground".  Instead of running away, you can stand your ground and fight back with deadly force.

Florida Statutes 776.013: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

It sure sounds to me though like the Zimmerman fellow chased down Martin.  If anything it sounds like Martin was trying to stand his ground by fighting back and Zimmerman killed him.  Best to let the cops and the legal system do their job though and not try this in the court of public opinion.

Mar 27, 2012 11:17 PM #29
Rainmaker
244,734
Bonnie Vaughan
Scranton, PA
CNE SFR - Buyers/Sellers - Lackawanna & Surroundin

Fred:  I agree this has become a convenient platform for liberals and hate mongers.  From my prospective it's not about a racial crime.  It's about proper investigation number one.  Number two it's about tainting and demonizing those of us who carry firearms conscientiously for personal protect in.

The next rally will be to repeal the carry laws in Florida and other states.  I want Zimmerman to be unmasked for what I believe he was.  A self appointed vigilante.

 

Mar 27, 2012 11:23 PM #30
Rainmaker
161,942
Satar Naghshineh
Satar - Amiri Property and Financial Services Corp. - Irvine, CA

"It's about proper investigation number one.  Number two it's about tainting and demonizing those of us who carry firearms conscientiously for personal protect in."

Number three, it is to keep us Americans divided with one another so that government can provide a solution, like what you stated in the following:

"The next rally will be to repeal the carry laws in Florida and other states. "

Amen to:

"I want Zimmerman to be unmasked for what I believe he was.  A self appointed vigilante."

Mar 28, 2012 05:25 AM #31
Rainmaker
244,734
Bonnie Vaughan
Scranton, PA
CNE SFR - Buyers/Sellers - Lackawanna & Surroundin

Rob:  When I lived there in the 80's it was open carry.  I corrected that earlier in the comments.

http://www.readytodefend.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=5&chapter=12

 

Above is a website which outlines all states which have castle laws.  I found this article on the Florida site.  You may find it interesting.

Example of the kind of attack that will not justify defending yourself with deadly force: Two neighbors got into a fight, and one of them tried to hit the other by swinging a garden hose. The neighbor who was being attacked with the hose shot the other in the chest. The court upheld his conviction for aggravated battery with a firearm, because an attack with a garden hose is not the kind of violent assault that justifies responding with deadly force.

Mar 28, 2012 10:36 AM #32
Rainmaker
244,734
Bonnie Vaughan
Scranton, PA
CNE SFR - Buyers/Sellers - Lackawanna & Surroundin

Satar:

"I want Zimmerman to be unmasked for what I believe he was.  A self appointed vigilante."

Mar 28, 2012 10:37 AM #33
Anonymous
Georgia

Hi Bonnie!  Hope all is well in your world!  =))

Interesting and thought provoking blog.  What happened that night is up for much discussion without facts.  This needs looked into and every bit of information uncovered.  Beyond that, none of us know what really happened.  I read somewhere that Martin pulled Zimmerman's gun.  Like I said, we don't know and are all guessing.  To make a statement that "I believe Zimmerman was a self appointed vigilante" is a rush to judgement without facts.

ONE thing is certain.  Mao-bama is using this and inciting race wars for nothing more than votes.  Sickening.

I heard an interesting aspect of this case recently regarding the legal implications of Stand Your Ground.  It went like this...if Zimmerman was following Martin, at that point Zimmerman did NOT have protection under the law.  However, if Zimmerman was following Martin and then stopped following and headed back to his truck and Martin followed him, then Zimmerman has protection under Stand Your Ground.  It all depends who was pursuing who at the end and who was the aggressor...and if Zimmerman can prove he was in danger.

Why do you think the Black Panthers are not in jail for putting a Bounty on Zimmerman's head?

Apr 10, 2012 11:56 PM #34
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