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The Elephant In The Room - Stringer Strangeness / Stringer Stress

By
Home Inspector with Aspect Inspection

 

The Elephant In The Room - Stringer Strangeness / Stringer Stress: Whats WRONG Here?

stair / floor framing

This is under the basement stairs of a nice looking home less than 2 years old.   There are a few things wrong in this photo.  

Can you spot all five structural defects?

Here are a few hints;

 1 - The riser of the last tread and one joist do not a double trimmer make.

 2 - Toe nailed joists do not carry weight, Forever or for long.

 3 - Nails are pins to hold framing in place. Weight bearing framing has to be under the load.

 4 - Zippered nailing or stitched nailing will not be secure over time. A power nailing defect.

 5 - And, yes..the elephant in the room; the stringers are too short on one end. Guess which end.

 

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1

missing double header framing 

illustration framing

  It's obvious: one does not look like the other.

  There is neither doubled header or trimmer joists present.

  What you see in the photo is only a single joist and the face or 'riser' of the top tread is nailed to it. 

   But that is a finishing piece and has no structural strength or function.

   So there is no doubled header floor joist at all and even it there were it would be in the wrong position.

   In fact there is no correspondence between the text illustration and the actual construction here at all.

Corrective supports and framing are required to make this safe and secure. 

 I wouldn't bother to get a price from this builder. No point.

 

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2

error no joist hanger

  You've seen movies where mountaineers climb rock faces with minuscule toe and finger holds. That may be  fine from the comfort of your chair.

But it's not what you want to see in your floor framing.

Toe nailing is a carpenters technique using small nails at an angle at the ends of studs and other framing to position, aline, and hold parts in place until other cladding or finish materials are applied. There is no strength in these joints and they can easily be adjusted in various directions.

Here this sideways nailing was used but with bigger nasils. They will hold for a time, but not for all time.

Joist hangers are required here, or else you have to go old school. Old school is double notched joists meeting ledgered beams. It works well, just takes a lot more wood and space. Or you could use joist hangers.

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3

face nailed to stud

   It's partially obscured by the pipe but we can see enough to know that the trimmer joist is only been face nailed to the stud.

   It's the stud that carries the load so it should shoulder it. Meaning that it should be under the joist, at least by the thickness of the joist, or the joist should be notched into the stud.

   There is no other framing around to carry the weight for this part of the floor and the stairs. Doesn't matter if there may be a big engineered truss or wood joist on the other side of that wall. There is nothing right here.

   Nails, no matter how big are just pins used to hold wood in place. The wood has to carry the compression load. Nails don't cut it over time. Wood drying shrinkage, rust and vibration will weaken them. (Screws are worse - no shear strength.)

If the wood parts are big enough then bolts can be used but here thats not the case. Cripple studs must be added to the face of those studs to tranfer the load to the slab shoe plate.

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4

too many nails    I call this nailing defect 'zippering' because when large bore nails are peppered close together they can cause the wood to be weakened at that place or line.

   This effect is just like the perforations on the tear line of a cardboard box or other packaging. The nailing has punched out material there of crushed fibers so now it can easily be broken at that spot.

    Here we can see the space from the tread notch to the bottom edge of the stringer (as it follows the stud) has been nailed repeatedly in a tight line.

   The nails are holding for now and the problem is not obvious but as the wood ages and dries it won't 'grip' the nails as tightly and the vibration from the stair usage will start to loosen them. Failure will begin with a bounce and squeak developing in the stairs. These nails are all that's holding up this stringer.

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5

major error

   Here we have the big goof. The elephant in the room.

   The photo just shows one stringer but they are both are too short. They don't meet and transfer load to the floor frame as they should. Have a look at the stringers in Figure S1 (above) to see the correct assembly.

   I've seen similar errors outside on deck construction, which often gets done non-professionally. When I think back to the last time I saw that error I quickly realize that it was only about an hour ago, outside at the rear deck of this house. Hymn....

   The frameing at the main stair to the second floor is completely unaccessable as it is behind finished walls and ceilings. Hymm....

   So far this guy is batting O and 2. Will he strike out?

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This array of errors is also just one more example of why it is just as important to have a new home fully inspected.

Just because it's new,  doesn’t mean it's right.

Posted by

bolg signature 

Kathy Stoltman
Ventura, CA
RETIRED

Those are some serious structural issues for home so young, who is responsible for this shoddy work?

Feb 16, 2013 06:49 AM
Scott Nowling
Prudential Starck - Saint Charles, IL
Prudential Starck

Really cool post and use of photos.  Thanks for the service to the community! 

Feb 16, 2013 08:09 AM
Pamela Seley
West Coast Realty Division - Murrieta, CA
Residential Real Estate Agent serving SW RivCo CA

ditto Kathy's comment; construction quality keeps going downward instead of better and with all the technology we have. 

Feb 16, 2013 08:12 AM
Robert Butler
Aspect Inspection - Montreal West Island, QC
Montreal Home Inspector | Aspect Inspection

Believe it or not Kathy, it was a building contractors personal home. He was sell to move near his elderly father.

Feb 16, 2013 10:23 AM
Robert Butler
Aspect Inspection - Montreal West Island, QC
Montreal Home Inspector | Aspect Inspection

Glad you appreciate it Scott. It took a while to set up the photos and text but the message is clear.

Hi Pamela, sadly technology is most often applied to save money rather than make improvements.

Feb 16, 2013 10:36 AM
Donald Hester
NCW Home Inspections, LLC - Wenatchee, WA
NCW Home Inspections, LLC

Robert, Great example of how not to do it. Plus I like the missed nail in the flooring above as a visual aid ;)

Feb 16, 2013 10:51 AM
Tom Arstingstall, General Contractor, Dry Rot, Water Damage Sacramento, El Dorado County - (916) 765-5366
Dry Rot and Water Damage www.tromlerconstruction.com Mobile - 916-765-5366 - Placerville, CA
General Contractor, Dry Rot and Water Damage

Great feature post Robert, excellent job of pointing out the structural defeats in this newer home.

Feb 16, 2013 01:28 PM
Debbie Gartner
The Flooring Girl - White Plains, NY
The Flooring Girl & Blog Stylist -Dynamo Marketers

Thx for the great lesson on steps - very helpful.  I see lots of issues in steps here, too, especially in basement steps.  Sometimes it's makes it very tricky how when they haven't properly accounted for rise/run, so that when we add the hardwood floors, there is a tripping hazard - very annoying.

Feb 16, 2013 05:49 PM
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

Great discussion Robert.  So often stairs are not done well, and over time will demonstrate why.  Nature is the strictest code enforcer of all!  And, as a former baseball guy, you might mean O for 2...

Feb 16, 2013 07:25 PM
Robert Butler
Aspect Inspection - Montreal West Island, QC
Montreal Home Inspector | Aspect Inspection

Hi Don, yes wou do zero in on that missed nail.

Thanks Tom. I'm sure none of your crews make that kind of mess.

Yes Debbie basement stair sets are oftem aecondary utility stairs. Then they get dressed up when the basements are finished and as you say the math never planned for the finished floor.

Thanks Jay. I'm sure you are right for the baseball stats, I'll have to correct that.

 

Feb 16, 2013 10:34 PM
Clint Mckie
Desert Sun Home, commercial Inspections - Carlsbad, NM
Desert Sun Home, Comm. Inspection 1-575-706-5586

Hi Robert,

Is that particle board in the treads and back plate? If so what a bad Idea. There are a lot of defects in this small area. Where is the tie plate at the top of the stringers? Plus it looks like they had measured marked an cut several times.

The word "ROOKIES" come to mind.

Have a great day in Montreal my friend.

Best, Clint McKie

Feb 16, 2013 11:29 PM
Robert Butler
Aspect Inspection - Montreal West Island, QC
Montreal Home Inspector | Aspect Inspection

Yes it's a type of particle board. The treads are quite thick but heaven forbid anything gets wet.

The stairs are carpeted.

Feb 17, 2013 02:05 AM
Lyn Sims
Schaumburg, IL
Real Estate Broker Retired

Thanks for the education here. This is sad & this is a newer home. I wonder where the building inspector was? Someone signed off on that mess.

Feb 18, 2013 06:24 AM
Robert Butler
Aspect Inspection - Montreal West Island, QC
Montreal Home Inspector | Aspect Inspection

Hi Lyn, it is indeed a poor condition but those construction inspections are sampling inspections only. They don't see everything.

Feb 18, 2013 09:41 AM
Joshua Frederick
Home Inspector for ASPEC Residential Services, LLC - Defiance, OH
Home Inspector in Defiance & all of Northwest Ohio

That is a well put together blog with some great info.  Thanks for sharing.  One question though, the home is only 2 yrs. old, why would anyone waste money on an inspection? ;)

Oct 21, 2013 03:55 AM
Robert Butler
Aspect Inspection - Montreal West Island, QC
Montreal Home Inspector | Aspect Inspection
It was't a waste for this buyer. Because of the inspection the seller corrected all these problems, plus others and completed the basement finishing. And a careful correct job was done because the seller knew it would be inspected again, as it was.
Nov 01, 2013 12:21 PM