Great article and GREAT Points. I still have my "friend" Bretha and won't leave home with her.
Kathy Opatka
Ocean City, MD
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Wayne L. Brown
Alpine, CA
Great article, Joe. I carry concealed. Some people don't have that luxury. What are your thoughts of implementing a policy (whether it's a broker policy or an agent practice) to have the client meet at the office and the agent will make a copy of their drivers license for safety?
Lisanne Dickenson
Junction City, OR
Kathy Opatka
Ocean City, MD
Karen Pannell
Owensboro, KY
Gary Rossignol
Cincinnati, OH
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
I have an app that saves my location and contact info in email form, I always take a picture of their license and send it to someone in my immediate family. I carry a firearm and have other precautions. I show a lot of vacant homes with no electric and always trust my gut! Be safe agents this is a terrible factor in our everyday life- and all we are trying to do is make a living!
Lisanne Dickenson
Junction City, OR
Kathy Opatka
Ocean City, MD
Gary Rossignol
Cincinnati, OH
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
So what happens on weekends or after hours when most of our showings occur? Being alone with an unknown client in an empty office isn't smart at all. And realistically I don't have time to meet everyone for coffee/ bacon before showing. Sometimes I only show one house- people are testing the market, thinking about selling/ buying. A percentage of my showings never result in a purchase. I just don't really think you can protect yourself. This is also why I think the industry should end open houses. Agents are very vulnerable then too.
Cheryl Johnson
Highland Park, CA
Christi Farrington
Wilton, CT
Kathy Opatka
Ocean City, MD
Karen Pannell
Owensboro, KY
Liz Lockhart
Cape Girardeau, MO
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
It's even harder for property managers like me. I get ten or more calls a day for rental properties. I've always been careful carrying a box cutter, tazer, and pepper spray. I've now taken a CHL class, and bought a gun, bought a knife to strap to my thigh (I wear a lot of dresses), and I'm taking a self defense class next weekend. I wonder if the people who called me paranoid stii laugh now. And if they are, I don't really care.
Lisanne Dickenson
Junction City, OR
Kathy Opatka
Ocean City, MD
Liz Lockhart
Cape Girardeau, MO
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Wayne L. Brown
Alpine, CA
This evening I recived a new lead. I have not met them before and it is a vacant house in the country.
I asked if they would mind meeting me at the office in lue of the things happening to agents in our area. I have not heard back as it was late but wonder if I will hear from them. We will see.
Christi Farrington
Wilton, CT
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Kathy Fisher
Decatur, TX
Its too bad that agents can't show houses in pairs. I do think meeting at the office is a good idea. All agencies should abide by this rule for the safety of everyone. If you have a client that doesn't want to meet beforehand maybe it was best that you lose that client. You never know.
Kathy Opatka
Ocean City, MD
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Kathy Fisher
Decatur, TX
Very well said. It's easy for our office managers to say insist on meeting your clients in the office, but my market is 35 miles from my office, why would anyone come to my office only to drive 35 miles the other way?
Jan Green
Scottsdale, AZ
Kathy Opatka
Ocean City, MD
Karen Pannell
Owensboro, KY
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Kathy Fisher
Decatur, TX
I can't keep my comments to myself anymore and I'm not even going to address the bacon here.
Is there an agent on here who can explain to me why you aren't DEMANDING ...regardless of time constraints or what "hoops" you would like to have your clients avoid... a letter from a lender with either a prequal or proof of funds???
YOU ARE NEGLIGENT IF YOU ARE NOT REQUIRING THIS!!! There is no point in wasting your time or the seller's time if you are bringing unqualified candidates through homes. I do not EVER submit an offer without this documentation so why would you show a house without it ...because the point of showing houses is to what? To find the perfect home for your client! If you show them their dream home and you don't have this documentation available you could end up looking like a fool. Scenario... Saturday afternoon they fall in love with the house they want. You didn't do your job and require this documentation ahead of time. An offer is submitted from another agent who has required this knowing they need to present their client in the best light to get the home bought. You submit an offer saying...oh I will get that letter to you on Monday. You don't know the lender etc. If you were the selling agent which offer are you going to take more seriously??
You will likely lose the home for this client. Be professional and do your job. Educate your consumers as to why you need this. Pick up the phone and call the lender to verify they are legit if you have never done business with this lender before. If the buyer is serious this documentation will have to be provided sooner than later! Don't make exceptions. And no "I will bring it with me." To that I say..."Thank you for that thought! I need this before we see the home because I will touch base with your lender ahead of time to make sure the homes we are seeing will meet the criteria for the loan program(s) you qualify for."
Is this end all be all for agents? No of course not. But it certainly can deter creeps if they know there are ways for them to be traced. It should come from their email or have them fax it to you. Look, nothing is 100% but this is certainly one requirement that should be a standard across our industry.
If someone can't or won't provide this documentation then one of two things is going on...they aren't serious or it's not urgent. If they aren't serious let an agent with lower standards drive them around and waste their time while you are working with clients who are ready to buy. If it's not urgent then there's time to meet face to face.
As for the rest...pepper spray, taser, gun...whatever it takes.
Please folks, set some standards in this industry and require this documentation.
Edith Raney
Denton, TX
Jerri Schick
Galveston, TX
Kathy Opatka
Ocean City, MD
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Wayne L. Brown
Alpine, CA
Janie Pugh
Charleston, SC
I competely agree. I NEVER show a home without a pre qual letter from a Lender, and if I've never heard of the Lender, I call them first and also recommend they get another quote or two. Otherwise, it's a complete waste of time. It's as if we're simply window shopping and it's not fair to the Seller or the Buyer. I didn't realize this wasn't common practice. I didn't think anyone entertained a potential Buyer without paperwork from a reputable Lender. (And....I have a license to carry after an ugly incident in a vacant property a few years ago)
Edith Raney
Denton, TX
Jan Green
Scottsdale, AZ
Kathy Opatka
Ocean City, MD
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Wayne L. Brown
Alpine, CA
To the prior comments about never show a house without a lender approval letter..BEVERLY NEVER SHOWED PROPERTY TO UNAPPROVED BUYERS! This was an assumed cash buyer and we have no idea what the conversation was that allowed her to believe he had the money. However cash buyers in our office will now have to supply proof of funds.
Check out the app offered by Elite Security at essofar.com it monitors you and dispatch police if it sees you encounter a situation.
Edith Raney
Denton, TX
Jan Green
Scottsdale, AZ
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Kathy Fisher
Decatur, TX
I read this article as someone who is thinking of buying a home, and I will admit I hadn't thought about these concerns for you safety - so this is nice and might explain any behavior from my agent.
It should be noted though that if my agent invited me for bacon, as a vegeterian I would think that my agent is either cruel to animals or unintelligent. You would also offend Jews and Muslims. I suggest tea/coffee/pastry/fruit
Cheryl Johnson
Highland Park, CA
Jan Green
Scottsdale, AZ
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Kathy Fisher (Comment #2) -
I just get the sense that you and your friend "Bretha" are truly well-acquainted...
So in your case, I think carrying a "friend" is a fine solution. Stay safe and I hope your friend doesn't ever have to speak up for you.
Kathy Fisher
Decatur, TX
Great article Joe:
I always meet with people in a public place first, ie lenders office, panera etc. and never go on first appts alone. I have a partner that I work with and when they are not available to accompany me on first showings or open houses, I have even drug my husband along. Once you incorporate it into your routine it becomes habit and if someone objects, I move on to the next person.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Aaron Smith (Comment #3) -
I think having a policy like that in place truly makes the most sense. I dont even see a reason why it isn't practiced, other than for the sake of accomodation and convenience.
I am probably an anomaly, but I just don't deal with anyone I do not know. No sign calls. (I don't even use yard signs.) No marketing that drives unknown leads to me, etc. It's sorta hard for someone to stumble across me. If they dont have a specific reference from a person, I am polite, but do not deal with them. Really, for me, it goes beyond safety...more about just dealing wth a select clientele.
Unfortunately, most agents don't have that luxury. Takes years and patience.
So, yup, your suggestion is the best method to the madness in my mind.
@Nicole (Comment #4) -
You sound like you take a ton of precaution! Nice.
No need for cautionary tales for you. Just a lot of agents who throw caution to the wind.
@Carol (Comment #5) -
I know what you mean. So much of the timing in our business is not conducive to taing the precautions and implementing any sort of rigid protocol.
But when there is a will there is a way...
As for open houses....agree with you there as well! I haven't held an open house in at least 10 years. Hasn't hurt my business, and frankly, as much as most agents feel like their sellers want and will demand them, I find most DO NOT actually want them. They just want solid reasons why they shouldn't.
I don't even focus on the safety concerns on my part. There are plenty of reasons open houses do not make sense for our seller clients and I just give them my thoughts on those points of view.
@Teresa (Comment #6) -
I'd imagine your role is so much more difficult given that sort of volume and the general gist of dealing with that market.
Sounds like you are as vigilant and pre-thought as possible.
And for anyone who ever thought you are paranoid...I say they are not paranoid enough.
I've unfortunately had guns to my head, and knives (my own) pulled on me in the past. (Not during the course of real estate duties.) "Paranoia" isnt the term...so much as preparedness for the worst. There are certainly evil people out there. Avoiding them as much as possible is the best line of defense, but expecting the unexpected is the second line...
@Vonda (Comment #7) -
You're a classic example of why agents don't want to make a big deal out of screening and qualifying potential clients...
You are in the majority. Most people are good, trustworthy folks. gents don't want to make people feel like their character is being questioned, because most people's character does not HAVE to be questioned. It is the minority of people that slip through the cracks.
@Tim (Comment #8) -
Totally agree that pre-quals are important.
Those alone do not necessarily vet a client and they are unfortunately fairly easy to duplicate or mock up.
But the notion itself makes tons of sense...if and agent doesn't jump for someone without taing the time to make sure they are serious and qualified, they are likely overlooking other things.
@My Info (Comment #9) -
Trust your gut! Don't entirely dismiss them, but surely make sure you don't meet someone nobody (even you) has any record of, in the middle of nowhere for the first time.
@Rod (Comment #10) -
Yeah, I know. I dont need to mull that over. Hope you can understand why I used hyperbole in this piece. Not meant to be taken and used entirely literally...
@Debbie (Comment #11) -
Given the nature of the business, it really is a bit too difficult to show in pairs. Hard enough for one agent to carve out a living. And most agents have to work a ton of hours to even make an OK living....doubling up two agents would simply be impractical and lower production that is already often too low.
June Piper-Brandon (Comment #12) -
Exactly. Your typical scenario is what makes meeting at the office (which is certainly ideaistic) just a basic impossibility for a lot of agents.
In the least, neutral territory with witnesses is something...if not the best solution. I cn't imagine someone with intent on doing someone harm would be all that willing to hang out in public with the person they are intending on harming. (Of course I can't say tht absolutely...)
June Piper-Brandon
Baltimore, MD
@Fort Wayne (Comment #13) -
I'm not even going to address your refusal to address the bacon.
(I get it...it's hyperbole. Meant for absurdity and memorability.)
Which leads me to your points. Solid. Sensible. Makes business sense and it should be epected of agents bringing people through listings.
But it is not 100% done by agents. That is the norm, and that is the reality. And changing behavior is not as easily achieved with logic. Though logic is at the core of what I am getting at.
I couldn't get into everything I was going to in this piece. I started to. But frankly, it wouldn't have been read by anywhere near the number of people who have read it...let alone affect them.
I just waged a battle on cultural resistance is all. No flippancy was intended.
@Janice (Comment #14) -
I think it is common practice as much as possible for people to request and actually get a pre-approval. But I mentioned above, even requiring those alone does not inherently make one safe.
Stay safe! Sory to hear of your past run-ins. Hope it never happens again.
@Beverly's Friend (Comment #15) -
First and foremost -- my heart goes out to you and Beverly's other friends and especially her family. Truly. More than you could imagine.
From everything I have gleaned, Beverly was an astute, safe, and business-like agent. She did not throw caution to the wind by any means.
I don't think a pre-approval is the entire answer. And I am not truly sure that even the most careful of all agents can entirely avoid someone who is bent on evil. It is sad and sickening.
She took precaution and this still happened.
@David (Comment #17) -
I know...I know. Bacon isn't meant to be a literal suggestion. It is absurd. Meant to be. I'd hope the agent could transition in that sort of a moment and get into what the whole suggestion really is meant to convey.
Really glad to see folks lie yourself -- consumers -- chiming in on various venues. It truly was meant to tke this conversation out of the realm of us in the industry "preaching to the choir" and getting the folks we help to understand the song we need to sing.
Jennifer Manchester (Comment #20) -
Glad to hear you already act and think with your head. Stay safe and thanks for reading and commenting!
Joe,
You are so right, there is no "right" answer to how to deal with the immediacy of real estate. Without jumping, you could lose the client. WITH jumping, you might be putting yourself at risk AND starting off the relationship in that manner as the "how high should I jump" agent.
Breaking bacon is instilled in my thoughts now.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
We have all been in that situation before. I have taken other agents with me, left the address with my family and said "If you don't hear from me by 6:30, call the police!" and even taken pictures of client's license plates and messaged them off to a colleague. Even meeting someone prior to showing doesn't guarantee your safety. They can be so smooth and nice as a front. I think taking someone along is the best option, although, very inconvenient.
Cheryl Johnson
Highland Park, CA
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
I have been in the industry since the early 90s and I would never meet anyone without first taking safety precautions. First I always told another agent in my office and usually my husband if possible where I was going and who I was meeting...sometimes even asking them to accompany me if it was someone I didn't have a really great feeling about. I also always carried Police grade CO spray in my hand along with a second set of keys to my car to hit the panic button and to assure I could get into my car and lock the doors. I looped the ring around my thumb so I could still use my hands to open the lockbox and the doors. I never ever carried the lockbox in my hand, but kept the key in my hand until ready to lock up. I left the other set of my car keys in the ignition for a quick start up and getaway. I never ever went up or down a set of steps first especially if I was with a male or even a couple. If there were children with them I wasn't quite as learey, but I would never accompany a single male into the basement or upstairs in the house. I never went out alone to a rural area or at dusk knowing I couldn't get out before dark. Speed and a touch of greed is a factor in some of these incidents I have witnessed and we had several kidnappings and attempts in our area in those busy years when everybody was running and jumping at any and every phone call. Don't ever be in such a hurry to get that listing or make that sale that you ignore the possibility of danger. It just doesn't pay.
Christi Farrington
Wilton, CT
Lisanne Dickenson
Junction City, OR
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Wayne L. Brown
Alpine, CA
Joe
Well written and timely Blog.
While your premise is worthy, until the Whole Real Estate Community embraces this or some type option, at some point it won't work, and we might again have a repeat of this type of situation.
What I mean is that it is similar to those Agents who show property without having their Buyer Per-Approved. There is always that starving or careless Agent who fears loosing the client vs. ensuring that they are qualified beforehand.
Again, while the premise of your post is admirable, it is Worthless unless everyone in the Industry follows strict adherence.
Just my opinion. Thanks for the post.
Christi Farrington
Wilton, CT
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
What's up Mercy Colberg!? Thanks for reading and commenting...and cool name. And hat...
Good point on the "how high" element. So true. I think a lot of times, at least until consumers have been around the block a bit, they sort of presume that agents should jump, and should jump as high and as quickly as they want them to.
Yet at the same time, there is often this sense that consumers also want the agents to just cool off and let them be after they have gotten their immediate gratification. Then often disappear on that agent...then another...then another.
Sooner or later, a consumer could have left a bunch of leapig agents in their wake, only to finally settle in with one who they see value in.
That is probably the more accurate depiction of the path from A to B. Not so much the evil consumer bent on doing agents harm...just wasting an agent's time. And that is shame on agents for not creating the need for an up or down vote on their services and need for some serious commitment up front.
Sorry for the blog-length reply.
Cheryl Johnson
Highland Park, CA
Mercy Colberg
Sappington, MO
@Ellen K (Comment #37) -
Ever miss the check in call having just forgotten to let them know you are OK and have them end up callig the police?
@Steel (Comment #38) -
Sounds like you have some pretty solid habits out in the field.
Wayne L. Brown (Comment #39) -
I couldn't agree with you any more. 100%. I could tatter on for hours on your specific thoughts. I'll try not to...
Just from what I have seen (in terms of the metrics in regard to posts that have been made online over the past week), while there is certainly "chatter" and "we shoulds" -- I truly don't anticipate any lasting impressions from this tragedy.
I had to pare down this piece for consumption sake...but I wrote a good 300-500 words just along those lines -- mentioning that "time will pass, memories will fade, and old habits will be slipped right back into."
S'why I was hoping the absurdity of bacon would break through some general malaise.
Joe Kerouac Sure does sound like a good idea to me! One of my agents has been car shopping, and she noted the irony of the fact that consumers don't seem to to mind showing a driver's license to test drive a car, but they fuss about signing in at an open house! A higher level of identify proof to "test drive" a car than to "test drive" a house is absurd.
Georgie Hunter R(S) 58089
Haiku, HI
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Lottie Kendall
San Francisco, CA
Beautifully stated, Joe. I like your breaking bacon idea. Also photographing the driver's license and sending it to the office. If a potential buyer balks, tell them why this is your policy. Would he/she want their spouse or child hopping into a car with a stranger, or meeting a stranger at a vacant house? If they still balk, I think you know how you need to respond. I've made my decision.
Liz Lockhart
Cape Girardeau, MO
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Our office is very rural, and we are all women. Some of us are armed at all times, and while we pray we never have to pull them out, we feel slightly less at risk. That being said, we try to meet new people at the office, and sometimes get copies of drivers' licenses. I think we need to be more careful about that...
Lisanne Dickenson
Junction City, OR
Liz Lockhart
Cape Girardeau, MO
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
I guess you don't have any Jewish clients who are Kosher or any Islamic clients, otherwise you would not suggest that they eat bacon with a new prospect. The actual term comes from a few thousand years ago and it's called "breaking bread" since that is the staff of life and something that all cultures around the world consume. Just make sure that it's gluten free or you're sure to offend someone, somewhere along the way.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Very well done Joe. Here I was all ready to bash another guy for telling us to be 'careful out there'. I'm not going to get nutsy like Don above about the bacon reference. I like it lol.
Lisanne Dickenson
Junction City, OR
Liz Lockhart
Cape Girardeau, MO
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
You had me at BACON! All kidding aside this post tackles a very serious issue and one that we all face when we preview vacant/foreclosed homes or meet strangers at properties. Be safe!
Lisanne Dickenson
Junction City, OR
Liz Lockhart
Cape Girardeau, MO
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Great ideas, I would love to have bacon with anyone at anytime! But the heart of the issue for us is our safety.
There are just so many variables. I too cannot always have someone drive to my office then 25 miles in another direction. A prequal can be faked... Crazies are everywhere. So I have someone come in and I copy the drivers license.... and it is a fake. Or if I take a snapshot of a license plate and it is a stolen car... I like the idea of mace, I will get some. I am not going to carry a weapon, I have my reasons.
My head spins with this one. I was supposed to meet someone at a vacant house today, I had another agent ready to meet us there. The showing is postponed till a later date.
As a side note, on the way back from the showing of the vacant house that didn't happen someone decided to cut in front of me to make a left hand turn. I was able to stop but I ended up in the other lane. I could have been killed.
I guess you just never know, do you.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Liz Lockhart , how are you!? Feel like we bump into each other somewhere else online a bit. My guess is FB R.E. Tips and Collab. page....
So true in terms of simply test driving cars vs. letting people into other people's homes. Shouldn't make people bat an eye to be vetted and documented before agents bring them into anyone's home.
Liz Lockhart
Cape Girardeau, MO
Some of us work out of our homes. Starbucks with Wi-Fi is a perfect place to meet.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Lottie Kendall - Thanks for reading and chiming in. It truly is as simple as that.
Lottie Kendall
San Francisco, CA
Victoria C.B. Trees - That is so foreign to me....an office full of armed people. We just couldn't do that in NJ. But I've been to Oregon, and I know it can get rural. Stay safe.
FWIW, I spent a night in Biggs Junction years ago. I was the guy in a rented Teal Kia Sephia in a town full of semis. Total fish out of water experience.
Victoria CB Trees
Chiloquin, OR
Lottie Kendall
San Francisco, CA
Don Kanare - Baaahahaha, I actually have quite a bit of friends and clientele who wouldn't eat bacon. I live in NJ. We have a really diverse population.
I have Jewish friends who eat bacon. (Shhhhh, don't tell on them!)
Point is...bacon was not the point, per se. Bacon was meant to be absurd and not taken literally, unless somene really wanted to eat bacon together. Just meant to broach a subject, bridge a gap...stop a consumer in their tracks.
Thanks for reading and chiming in.
Lyn Sims - Those there words're just plain ole nice to hear. Thanks for reading and taking the time to make me feel good!
Lyn Sims
Schaumburg, IL
BTW, Joe -- I re-blogged this; the more eyeballs on it, the better in my opinion.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Chris Lima - So glad you dug the bacon.
Question for you.....you think the title would have been better if it mentioned the bacon angle!?
Chris Lima
Port St Lucie, FL
Andrea Swiedler - There literally is no way to live a totally safe and secure life, no matter how thoughtful and careful you approach anything.
Not sure you read my comments above, but I've been on the worng side of guns and knives. I couldnt have done anything to avoid it happening. (Other than not live where I lived.)
In those moments, time is slow. And afterward, you just become very familiar with the fact that anything can happen at any time and ain't nothin' you can do. So....bacon.
Cynthia Larsen - I am one of the "some of us"!!!! I work out of my home. Starbucks should really know just how much their coffees are worth in terms of the office rental market. Maybe they'd start charging agents by the sqare foot of coffee.
Excellent article. I'm on the Safety Committee in our Board and we are REALLY stressing this, even tho the "Safety Month" has passed.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Good article Joe. Finding a unique way to connect with a perspective client is a new exercise in creativity. Not every Agent probably client will adopt it but we have to try new ways to be safer in a changing world.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Great thoughts Joe. It's definitely on our radar and Breakin' Bacon! I'll give it a try
!
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Joe, the title was perfect and so was the post. The "bacon" was an added bonus!
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
It is scary to think that there are people who prey on others. I was sick to my stomach when I heard this.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Yes, Joe. FB R.E. Tips and Collab is where we are bumping into each other. I also spend time on the NAR page and on a broker/owner page. I learn a lot there and on Active Rain.
Bacon in the headline might attract attention (good and bad). You might add a disclaimer as a PS to the end just to blunt some of the nay-sayers. "Bacon is a metaphor, of course, which I used strictly because it's a little absurd. Substitute any kosher vegetable that you want, if you are a non-bacon eater. How does eggplant sound?"
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
I sincerely hope we, as an industry, will not forget Beverly Carter. Unfortunately, truth is hundreds of agents have been killed showing homes in last few years. We should not forget them either. The pressure was on when I joined this industry in 2007 to show homes in 10 mins. I have since simmered down and do not show any one a home that cannot show proof of ability to buy: either proof of funds, or mortgage pre-approval letter. In a perfect world it would be ideal to meet in the office, but for many agents that is not possible, so meeting over bacon or bread is next best. Since Beverly's tragic death, I have added getting copy of photo ID, DL, and car make, model, year, color and license plate number. Conceal carry permits are difficult to get in California, but pepper spray or air horns are good alternatives. Cannot be said enough, safety first.
Tonya Coffey
Upper Marlboro, MD
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Beverly Carters death should make us more cautious about meeting strangers. I am an independent broker working out of the guest house on my property so I don't have an office where I meet clients and copy drivers licenses. I do make an effort to try to find out who I am dealing with and you can often obtain a great deal of information by searching names, email addresses and phone numbers. I primarily show land and houses on acreage so appointments are normally made in advance. If other agents working in rural areas where they don't work in an office setting have any ideas they would like to share I would appreciate it.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Personal safety is always a concern. Every situation and area is different. You do your best to make the right choices.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
I read this article here in Palm Springs and it shocked me, but also reminded me of why I NEVER go alone to distant locales, or after hours. Tell your fellow clients, tell someone! Don't get greedy and KNOW there is another deal coming..you don't need that one that badly.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
It is important to stay safe. No sale is worth the risk to your personal safety. Always screen your buyers before hand.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Dear Joe,
I just go with the old "come to the office, so we can talk." No bacon, but water or coffee, just in case. People, who are willing to come make much better clients. Those, who ask you to see a formerly Open House, as you are grabbing the last directional sign never call you again anyhow.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Joe,
A timely post, though I'm concerned you may have just alienated the richest clientele you may have had ...and if you're going to offer bacon, don't cheep out, because if we do eat it, we prefer thick sliced maple bacon.
Steve Zimmerman
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
This is the kind of message NAR should be running - telling the public WHY they need to slow down and get acquainted before expecting an agent to meet them in some unoccupied house.
Wendy Smith
Clearwater, FL
Stephanie Joines
Clearwater, FL
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Not a bacon eater ( calorie conscious) ... but this is another reminder to both Realtors and our customers that we need to be vigilante for our safety as well as the customer. Great Post, Joe
Carol Gilles, Realtor - Torrance, Ca
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
I want you to be my agent. Maybe we could make the bacon ritual happen every time we look at homes... and let's see every home on the market!
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
A great way to a clients heart too..food! You can win their heart while you protect yours. :-)
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Yes, meeting clients first in a public place or office and pre-qualifying them are all useful tips to weed out those who might be dangerous. "I Have to see the home NOW" doesn't wash unless it's a client I've already been working with.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Tonya Coffey
Upper Marlboro, MD
Thank you for you thoughts. This is a great article and so true!
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
We all need to use extreme caution to stay safe. I know a local agent that had a very, very close call. Fortunately she had trusted her gut instinct and took her husband with her which resulted in the "buyer" choosing not to look at the house.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Travis "the SOLD man" Parker; Associate Broker - Great that you are so involved in the safety training. Keep on stressing and pushing the importance of the subject.
Michael Hottman - Unique, creative angles at least get people's attention. Stops people in their tracks...
@Lynn Ganster - Been loving seeing people use the term "breakin' bacon"...makes me smile every time.
Lilas "Lela" Ashkarian
Marathon, FL
Chris Lima - Thans so much for those words. Means a ton. And thanks for specifically giving me feedback on the title.
Chris Lima
Port St Lucie, FL
Karen Fiddler, Broker/Realtor - Had a pit in my stomach all last week.
Liz Lockhart - Thoughts so!
Pamela Seley, REALTOR® - That "pressure" will always be there I think. Just hoping as many agents as possible can think and act for themselves in terms of having some good precautions in place....like you seem to have,
Jacqueline Drake CRS - Yes, your scenario certainly sounds tough. There was an agent above chiming in about rural showings if you want to skim the thread.
Bill Reddington - Exactly. There is no one prescription to curing this...
Kimberley Kelly, SFR, HAFA - Yup. Always a deal around the corner. And do you ever show houses on that horse?
Rob Arnold - Exactly.
@Dorte - That is truly how I roll. I don't actually offer bacon. Might meet for coffee...but I am pretty straight up. We meet before we see...
Steven Zimmerman - Hilarious. I mentioned to someone else above....I actually network with and represent my fair share of people who wouldn't (or at least if they lived by the rules shouldn't) eat bacon. Not meant to be taken literally. Hyperbolical.
Marte Cliff - Right!?
Carol Gilles - My wife just got on my case about how much bacon I consume. She hasn't even read this piece yet. Maybe she'll see this as some attempt for me to justify my consumption. But, to me, bacons are naed without bacon.
Carol Gilles
Torrance, CA
Rob Arnold
Altamonte Springs, FL
Georgie Hunter - Conversely...I want you to be my agent. Would mean I am about to be living in Hawaii!!! And could we sub out the bacon for some Spam!? Love the agle you bring up....bacon would perhaps make showing clients EVERY house more palatable.
Tammy Adams - So, really, you bring up another good way of putting this. We fight this problem with food. Therefore, we start a food fight.
Kat Palmiotti - Same here. To me, just doesnt even make sense for the consumer to want to see the house "NOW". Shouldn't be such an urgency. (I know, I know, urgency is necessary in this market, that market, etc....)
Barbara Easton-Irvin - Thank you for your thoughts! Kind of you and means a ton to me.
Terry McCarley - Over the past few days, I have been hearing from so many people who either personally had a close call, or knew of someone. Add that to the stats of how may actually have something happen and it is sickening. Glad that worked out for the agent. Good gut instincts on that one.
Tammy Adams ~ Realtor ...
Maricopa, AZ
Thanks for sharing. I agree with Marte. I wish NAR would focus some of their ad time on this.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Every agent has a line and that determines why we're unique and different, doesn't it? Meeting a prospect on the fly without any personal information or a contract regardless of the circumstances IMO should never be contemplated.
Agents must be selective with their future clients for a number of reasons, so if their future clients are reluctant or uncooperative in meeting and providing pertinent personal as well as financial information (credit report, loan approval letter, etc.) about themselves, why would you accommodate or even pursue them?
This practice may not have prevented the tragedy that befell Beverly Carter, yet , we'll never know, will we?
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Stephanie Joines - Agreed. Maybe they will....
Kimo Jarrett - Hard to say anything...even meeting and vetting a client...would ever get in the way of someone truly intent on doing something horrible. And everyone has their line, and tolerance for risk.
@Susan Liner - That was the more practical sort of example I started writing about when I began that piece. It really should be argued that if you are ringing someone into another person's home, they should certainly be documented in some way. Hard to accomplish given the way things flow in this business, but it wouldn't be the worst thing to require. I go against the grain and make it sort of an effort to see my listings. It helps mae sure that the agents showing it aren't just bringing someone by out of convenience. The buyer has to be serious.
Joe Kerouac Your suggestions are well reasoned. I'm hopeful that more agents will follow your suggested safety measures.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
From what I have read and heard about Beverly's situation, she did everything she needed to do and for the most part, took every precaution, which would make this just an unfortunate incident. I think meeting a client ahead of time is a great idea, whether it is at the office or in a public place. But, in this fast paced world we live in now, asking a client to meet you ahead of time is not an option most of the time, as it is simply too much of an inconvenience for a client. Unless it is required by law, there are too many agents that will take the risk, because if they don't, they will soon be out of business. I do think we should make every effort to meet them ahead of time, show the home with someone else or carry a weapon (make sure you know how to use it safely).
Cheryl Johnson
Highland Park, CA
Jlyne Hanback
Frisco, TX
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Wayne Johnson - Appreciate the kind words!
In watching the general vibe and natural arc online since the tragedy, I sense that the keen sense of the need for safety is already waning. Sad. But probably true.
@Karol Yeager - You're so welcome. Thank you for taking the time to read.
It also continues to be on my mind...
William Buddy Scott - Same here. From everything I have read, and from people who knew her well, it sounds like she was always cautious and did more than most agents do to ensure her safety.
That's what makes it all the more frightening.
And I agree that we live in a fast-paced world, and more specifically, we are in a faster paced career, with demands and expectations from consumers we do not yet know, but want to get to know. So it makes it darn hard to have a firm policy.
But it is possible. This isn't a hypothesis on my part. Not that I literally meet people for bacon, but I haven't met someone I truly "know" in over a decade. It may limit me in some people's eyes, in terms of how much business I could get, but I get quality clientele by just focusing on leads coming to me from peole vouching for someone who wants to work for me.
Jordon Wheeler
Fairburn, GA
I appreciate your thoughts and sharing a new term...breaking bacon! Something has to give and you are right no one thing will do. Thanks for remembering our fellow,agent Beverly Carter and giving us another idea,to consider for safety.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Just a thought - what if listing agents were coming to show their homes more often rathere than putting a lockbox - then there would be two agents present at a showing and much higher chances to keep it safe.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Lisa Hassler
Yarmouth Port, MA
In my CT office we have system set up. If you are worried for your safety and want to alert someone with out letting the suspect know...Call the office for the red file on...address of property you are at. That alert them to call for help or the very least, call you back in 5 minutes.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Hey Joe,
Great feature, and yes Beverly Carter's death was extremely unfortunate. I also suggest we go in twos - until we know more about who the client is.
Best of GREAT success to you always@
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Although it is sometimes inconvenient for clients to meet at an agents office, I still feel that it is imperative to meet at the office or at least, a public place. Not only is it important for our safety, but have clients thought of the fact that maybe it's inconvenient for an agent to just go "show" them a house. And Joe, your article and picture for the blog are very fitting. Great post!
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Eileen Knode
Chester, VA
Thank you Joe for taking the time to not only share your thoughts, grief and loss regarding Beverly Carter, but to remind us how quickly things can change. In an instant...all that was is gone...forever. As a brand new agent these are things I personally haven't given a whole lot of thought to. Who knows? You may have personally saved a life with this post. I will be incorporating the "B.B." plan into my future endeavours as part of protocol. Both my family and I thank you, from the bottom of our hearts and tummies.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Thank you! Terrific post. Showing property is scary nowadays and I hope everybody understands if realtors are more careful/cautious when meeting people.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
"arming themselves is a bit impractical"? - I will never downplay an agent who wants to take the steps necessary to "conceal and carry" a weapon for personal safety and the safety of their family. As an agent, you need to do what is necessary. The rapists, robbers and thieves certainly are.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Lisanne Dickenson
Junction City, OR
Gary Rossignol
Cincinnati, OH
Thank you for the great post! No one ever thinks something like this can happen to them, but, like you said in your blog, it happens more than one might think. Just remember safety is always #1.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Thanks Joe, for the thoughtful article. I always meet my new clients ahead of showing them a property. I also always have an associate with me when showing a property to new client especially if they do not want to stop by the office for an initial meeting. I also do the same for open houses. I always tell my kids and siblings saftey first, since Mrs. Carter's death, that rule is more important today.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Very well written. I hope every new buyer reads this. Thank you.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
I think meeting before hand is a good idea, but obviously it's not a cure all. You could meet someone before hand and still find yourself in danger when you do finally end up alone with them. Even having them fill out a form asking for some personal information could turn out to be useless, not to mention some folks would likely be turned off by that. There is an answer and we need to find it Joe. We all have a right to be safe.
Cheryl Johnson
Highland Park, CA
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Kathleen Luiten
Princeville, HI
In my opinion you should NEVER show a property without first meeting the client, how do you know if he/she qualifies for a loan? and if it is a cash deal, find out first if the client has the funds to complete the purchase. Ask the Client to first meet at your Office and bring all the needed documents. that way you will be safe, if the client is reluctant to do it, then you should be too.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Lynn FISCHER Phoenix, ...
Sun City, AZ
James Renfro SRS, SFR,...
San Diego, CA
There is something to be said for asking a buyer that is calling to see your listing for a pre-approval or proof of funds before confirming the showing.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
I believe if it's "inconvenient" for a potential buyer to meet a professional agent at the office there is already a red flag showing a lack of respect for our industry. We're not selling bicycles on Craigslist. Would an attorney/doctor/insurance agent meet a "potential new client" alone at a strange location for the first time? Especially after normal business hours or on a weekend?
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Debra Peters
Manorville, NY
Dinorah VanWey
Hesperia, CA
Lynn FISCHER Phoenix, ...
Sun City, AZ
Gary Rossignol
Cincinnati, OH
Thank you, Joe, for an excellent post. I hope many potential home buyers will read it and understand the reluctance of agents to show a home for sale to a complete stranger.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Dinorah VanWey
Hesperia, CA
I love your article, and thank you so much for expressing these very important points. Ultimately I feel as though if we, as agents, could collectively make the effort to implement more safety precautions, it would become known as "standard procedure" to the potential buyers and they would appreciate and understand that our safety must come first. It is so crucial to know as much as possible about who we are dealing with, and not be afraid to turn down a potential client if something feels "off" or if they don't want to adhere to our safety requirements. Wonderful article, Joe!
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Gary Rossignol
Cincinnati, OH
Terry Crisler
Sonoma, CA
This week a site agent was assulted and sexually assaulted while showing a builder's model in Richmond Virginia.
I show a lot of farms and country property covering 5 counties. My office is often not at all close to where we are going. It can be challenging to find a public place in which to meet. I try to at least find a country store before going out to the property but it still is only a partial solution...hence a carry permit.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Dinorah VanWey
Hesperia, CA
Terry Crisler
Sonoma, CA
I am vegetarian, but appreciate the sincerity and the idea of meeting in a public place first. I don't meet people I don't know at the house alone and haven't for the past couple years since the day I went on a weekly vacant property check and almost walked into what could have been terrible for me. I put my hand on door knob and got a complete feeling of dread come over me, so I backed away and called the police. Sure enough some people where in the house, they ran out the back when the police showed up. The police officer gave me his cell number to call before coming to this property ever again and thanked me for calling, saving him from discovering my body later. He was a wonderful policeman. You don't think it could happen to you, we take so many precautions but still this is a very dangerous job and buyers just want to see the property and don't understand the fear we have. I don't know how to be totally safe and work with a buddy system or if a buyers really insist I have to meet right now, I just say no I won't do it, but it took a great scare for me to be able to say no when I feel pressured. I wish we all had a cop to buddy with.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
James Renfro SRS, SFR,...
San Diego, CA
Some great comments above. I think we have to know who we're dealing with ahead of time, for safety concerns as well as just plain knowing if the individual is a real potential buyer. It just makes sense. I think this is a great opportunity to find a simple solution to a very real and complex problem.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Very well written and I will be sharing it. I work in a rural area and calling for help is not an option. We as agents need to value ourselves and what we do as well as who were are. My time is valuable , my life even more so.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Dinorah VanWey
Hesperia, CA
Joe, Outstanding post. You are probably preaching to the choir though. However, I will print and share with others in my office. I will also refer to it on my radio show tomorrow morning. I have two major brokers in the studio talking about Realtor professionalism and Safety.
We are all grieving the loss of our fellow realtor Beverly Carter and I totally agree with Julia Courcier. Attorneys, doctors or insurance agents would never meet a stranger alone in a vacant home for the first time.
I have found myself in a compromising situation one too many times and I am not convinced an app on my smart phone will save me from a nasty varment whereas my 380 caliber will. I have a conceal and carry license, know my rights and practice complete safety by protecting myself, family and property.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Thank you for your post. We need to continue to bring awareness to the terrible tragedy of the loss of Beverly Carter. Crimes occur when the opportunity is present. We must minimizes the opportunity that enable these senseless crimes to happen. If we just add one or two simple steps to our screening of clients we can be saving our lives and that of our fellow REALTORS®. Chances are very good that a predator is not going to get pre-qualified, nor are they going to meet you at your office and hand over an ID. My condolences to the Beverly's family, friends and the Arkansas REALTOR® community. Let's stay safe and let's honor Beverly by going home to our families every evening.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Great post and comments. A good self-defense class, remembering safe practices, and having cell phone in hand are essentials too. But I don't do showings or open houses without a buddy or the listing agent present.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Kathleen Luiten
Princeville, HI
What an outstanding article, I agree our safety must be first. If that buyer can't meet with you than he or she didn't need your service.
Have a Wonderful Blessed Day!!!!
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
I always want to meet with a buyer first - whether at Starbucks or for bacon....it doesn't matter. My office is somewhat virtual so Starbucks is my second office. In addition to safety concerns, I can't really assist a buyer without meeting him or her first anyway. Meeting at a property is not the way to start out a relationship - odds are that won't be the property they end up buying. If they can't or won't meet me first they can call the next agent on their list - I'm not the right person to represent them.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Hi Joe, Everyone needs to meet their clients first before showing. It should become the industry norm.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Joe, Thanks for the post. Our industry has been talking for the last ten years about requiring prospects to meet us at the office and provide photo ID. It does not accomodate the client but it may save lives. Many times, buyers want to see a house after work, on the way home from work. It is an inconvenience, or extra miles to come to our office first. When someone calls and wants to see my listing, I feel like I have an obligation to my seller to show the property. Many times, I end up working with that buyer and sell them a home. We hate to work and live in fear, but we must be cautious. The tragedy with Beverly has caused us all to step back and re-evaluate. Again, thanks for the post.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Lynn FISCHER Phoenix, ...
Sun City, AZ
Love the alliteration of "breakin' bacon"!
My R.E. Commission just sent out a list of things we really need to consider BEFORE we go meet the "strangers"! One in particular that I liked... take a picture of their license plate, then email it to a co-worker!
I'll see how that works!
Kathy Opatka Ocean City, Maryland
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Karen Pannell
Owensboro, KY
One other suggestion: for those with CCDW permit, go to EGunPurses.com
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Melissa Kirk
Grand Marsh, WI
I think we need to include are personal safety and the safety of our employees in our professional standards, and not break em for anyone. I know that in business there are so many different variables, and certain circumstances can make that difficult, but the bottom line is they're necessary, and I dare say once enforced as standards, we can and will adapt.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Thanks, Joe! Such an important subject for women realtors AND men! My wife is becoming a realtor to come along side me. She takes Kung Fu classes. Hopefully she would never have to use it on anyone but she's prepared.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
As a Principal Broker as well as a certified Firearms Instructor, I tend to be biased towards using firearms, but I also understand and embrace many other safety practices. You have to put yourself in a mindset that you are ALWAYS in danger to some extent...and prepare yourself for the possiblities.
When showing a property, try to go in pairs when at all possible. At the very least, let someone know that you are showing and where you will be. Arrange to call them when you are finished. Give them info on who you are showing to, including texting license numbers of vehicles.
If you aren't comfortable carrying a gun, buy a tazer, pepper spray, or even a Kubaton. (martial arts device) Learn to use your keys or even your high heels as a defensive weapon. THEN...be AWARE. When showing a house, always face your buyer. Never go into a room first or put the client between you and an escape door. Use mirrors and windows to keep eyes on a client's movements. If possible, view the properties ahead and know where the exits are.
Take some defensive Martial Arts classes! I have a small but very effective gun that I carry right right in the small of my back. It fits flat against my body so that nobody would ever know it's there. Although I'm very proficient with it, I'm under no illusion that it will save my life unless I can get to it...which means employing many other safety tactics as well. I must be prepared to buy time.
It sickens me that this happened to Beverly Carter...and that any of us have to worry about our lives, but in honor of her, I will continue to try and raise awareness of the need for defensive training.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
M.C. Dwyer
Felton, CA
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
This is such a thought provoking topic. Almost all of the agents in my office do open houses alone, that are advertised in the paper. Of course most of the time things are uneventful, but what happened to Beverly makes you rethink everything. I will tell you this, I will make sure that I have an escape plan.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
This is an important post. I also believe that it vitally important to have a buyer go through the lender pre-approval process before showing homes. In addition to saving time from showing homes a buyer may not be qualified for, it adds a measure of safety.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Chrysti Tovani
Fair Oaks, CA
I have read all of the posts, many great suggestions but cannot find a real 'answer' to a devastating situation. My mother was a Realtor back in the early 70's when this problem was out of control. Mom asked me to go into real estate back then, and I gave her a definite 'no' and "Would you please get OUT of real estate."
Now here I am a Realtor and finding that there are no real answers until it becomes a 'standard' within the industry to keep us all safe. One of the problems is that there is always someone out there who wants to bypass the system.
We take a photo of the license plate = stolen car. We take a picture of the driver's license = fake. We meet them in a public place = they're charming until they AREN'T.
BTW, by the time the information is needed because we have NOT returned, it's too late!
I don't have any answers, only more questions with hopes that we take all precautions that are possible.
My best to everyone!
Thank you for a great, eye-opening and helpful post!
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Mary Clark
Cincinnati, OH
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Christine Lussa
Cape Coral, FL
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
There is safety in numbers. Bring along a fellow Realtor, a mortgage professional, or a trusted friend. Why would you meet someone you don't know at a vacant home? Why be at an open house by yourself?
Remember the old adage of swimming. Have a buddy.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Bob Pisa Downing-Frye Realty - And peace be with you...
Becky Kolb - Glad you like the term "Breakin' bacon". I hoped it'd be more sticky than a list of reasons.
@Vera Perner - That'd certainly be a solution. I just tend to go the route of not depending on getting other people to change their habits...I just change and control my own. But it would certainly be something that would deter things like this happening.
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Not sure this matters to anyone, but I thought the traffic had finally plateaued on this piece.
I sat down to start replying to all the comments, but it happens to be my 15th anniversary and my wife and family sorta want me off the computer and in their presence. Soooo....I will get back to everyone. But later. Thanks for all the attention to this article!!!!!
Mary Clark
Cincinnati, OH
M.C. Dwyer
Felton, CA
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Lisanne Dickenson
Junction City, OR
Chris Furtado
Apple Valley, CA
Excellent writing. It is so hard because you do want to be accomodating. I meet buyers at a location - coffee, model homes with onsite sales agents, restaurants. I work out of a small office, and on the weekends or evenings, that is probably even more dangerous than meeting them in a neighborhood. I have pepper spray on my same keychain as my lockbox faub. I do not conceal the fact that I have pepper spray. I've even had clients acknowledge it. It's there all the time - every time. I take photos of drivers license and text them to my husband with the addresses I'm going to.
It's part of the job and we just have to be smart about it. Don't ever let your guard down. A seemingly perfect normal person could meet you at your office, get loan approval, and then two weeks later flip out. I don't care who they are... I am always going to have my pepper spray with me.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Mary Benton
Lubbock, TX
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Great ideas Joe, While some people are still talking about what happened, there are offices that are putting new policies in place to help in regards to agent safety. We also must learn to listen to our instincts and when something feels wrong, it usually is.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
We are indeed preaching to the choir. In my opinion we need to be working hard to educate the public. Some of our sizable resources need to be used toward that end, nationally, states, and locally. If the public had a better understanding of what to expect and not expect of us, would be the biggest help of all in increasing our safety.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Bruce Minter
Virginia Beach, VA
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Thank you for the good post. There has been a lot of discussion with agents in my community regarding personal safety and making sure we are there for each other. Great comments from Lisanne Dickenson and Christi Farrington.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
The public at large has little desire to be educated about anything they are not really interested in. So unless they are currently involved in a real estate transaction, that's a hard road. I believe we need to set standards that we all abide by or there will always be someone out there who will cut corners to get the deal. The public really learns when something becomes standard procedure.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Mary Benton
Lubbock, TX
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Get them pre-approved first, and Google them. Interesting what you can learn. A man told me the other day he didn't want to talk to lender first, "I just want to see the house". I told him he needs to do what every other buyer I work with is required to do, and he said thanks and goodbye. I don't have time or the inclination to risk my safety.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Joe this is an awesome piece you wrote here. I have just set this up to go out tomorrow morning in my newsletter to my sphere. I have given you credit for authoring it and included your copyright as well. Thanks so much for your spin on this important issue. Very engaging reading, kudos to you!
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Mary Clark
Cincinnati, OH
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Joe, I like the way you presented this information. I require all buyers to meet at my office with a pre-approval letter by a known lender, a signed buyer's representation agreement, and a copy of their driver's license.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Chris Furtado
Apple Valley, CA
Joe thank you writing about this terrible tragedy. Your heart felt post resonates what we are feeling and thinking. After reading many of the comments and valid concerns, it occurs to me the time has come for our industry to change. Maybe the answer is complicated and the solution will be uncomfortable.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Mary Clark
Cincinnati, OH
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
I think Copper has a good point using our resources to educate the public. Makes more sense to me than the huge amounts of money NAR spends running around touting "I Am One" Just saying!
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
We cannot be TOO CAREFUL ... God gave us a brain and the ability to get "that intuition or feeling" ... that was placed within everyone of us to protect us and we need to be smart, make wise decisions and not find ourselves so desperate for a showing that we skip the steps to protect ourselves. Thank you so much Joe for this post. I just hope a number of consumers read this and help us to integrate these thoughts into our world of real estate.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Thanks Joe - the comments keep pouring in because YOU WROTE FOR ALL OF US. Hope you had a wonderful anniversary.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Mary Clark
Cincinnati, OH
Absolutely must meet then at the office....we are professionals.....if they can't recognize that then how can we work with them? The trust between realtor and client is very important and needs to start from that first moment....and yes their financials need to be "checked" by another professional (mortgage tbroker) to determine their financial capabiliy to save their time (and angst) and yours. And meeting over a dish of bacon? You were kidding of course.
No need to offer lunch etc. .....are you begging? Perhaps a cup of coffee/tea or a glass of water in the office only.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Safety is job one - period. No commission is ever the risk of your life. Well written!
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Thank you Joe - Well said and I am going to re-post on my companies fb page for agents to put on their fb pages too - lets get the word out!
Cheryl
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
What a fantastic post. I hope it goes viral so the public understands our change of heart when it comes to meeting them at a house. Safety MUST come first and if the public begins to understand it isn't about them, it is about protecting ourselves in a mean world, perhaps they will be more understanding. Thank you for writing what we have all been thinking.
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
I don't know where you practice but bacon probably offends half the home buying population around my area.
No matter where we meet, except at the vacant property, more and more agents should insist on safety procedure. If everybody does it, REAL buyers will get a clue. I am also thinking of a public service announcement by NAR. Why don't NAR or the individual state Realtor associations not make TV ads explaining that bona fide buyers should not have a problem jumping through a hoop that ensures the agent's safety? Bona fide buyers will not refuse to jump through the hoop, lest they be viewed as criminal perverts...
Let's all make a stand on this!
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
I had posted about this same topic a week or so ago. There are a number of things anyone can do, some are more suited for some individuals than others. The one thing that everyone needs to do for personal safety is to set a standard for yourself and remain diligent about it. Additionally always be aware of your surroundings. We all look at a property in extreme detail when taking a listing, do the same for a buyer.
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
My husband has been my new assistant/security guard at Open Houses. I think it is important to not be alone whenever feasible. And I have a new favorite bagel place where I may suggest meeting the new buyer.
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Victoria Lorusso - Sounds like your office has a good system in place. Has that been implemented for a while, or just in light of recent events?
Jordon Wheeler - Going in twos is getting a lot of nods from people. Good way to go if one can coordinate having a partner along all the time....
Marisa & Demarco Fletcher - Right!? I mean, beyond just the safety and business-sense of not just jumping to meet someone, it's just plain impossible and inconvenient to drop and meet a client a lot of times. Not to say I never did that, but just hasnt been the way I roll in years. There's certaily urgency in real estate at times, but there should not be an emergency, per se, for someone calling on a house out of the blue. How the heck am I gonna counsel someone I just got a call from and met at a house within a few hours?
Heather Pendragon - First...good luck to you in your new career! Stay vigilant, but also now that this sort of thing is not the norm. The issue is -- complacency and a lack of protocol. So, just be aware. My best to you and your family ('cuz they are an integral part of a real estate agent's success...) and of course you tummies.
Valerie Osterhoudt - Thanks for the thanks! Thank you for reading it and commenting.
Robert McArtor - Yep. I don't take issue with anyone who wants to arm themself in any way. But it truly is just impractical. For one instance, my State (NJ) would be almost impossible for someone to get a license to carry.
Cynthia Streza - It does happen more than most people thnk it does. I now statistically it is low chance that it will happen to someone, but you just never know. I think I mentioned it somewhere above, but I've had guns to my head and a nife pulled on me on two separate occassions. Perhaps why this whole thing was such a sensitive subject to me.
Nirmala Caraballo - Sounds like you take a lot of precaution. Keep it up.
Julie Granahan - I can't imagine every buyer reading this, but I certainly wrote it so that agents who found a moment where this would be helpful could just send it along as sort of a 3rd party POV for the buyer to see it isn't just the agent being a bit demanding.
Chris Furtado - Right on. Yep, you could surely meet with someone and they still end up being some sort of maniac. It's not the only reason why, but I have only been dealing with people who come recommended by someone for quite some years. That's been my solution. I guess it doesn't seem all that feasable to most agents, but it works for me and is about as 100% of a solution as I can figure on.
Sergio Osorio - Thanks for chiming in. Totally agree with you.
Kristal Pooler - That was what I was taught to expect from buyers early on in my career and just sort of always practiced asking for a pre-approval or proof of funds as part of my upfront due diligence before taking a client on or even out. But I guess a lot of agents just feel a bit too forward asking, or get some resistance and feel like they should put that discussion off out of fear of the client getting annoyed.
@Julia Courcier - It really is that simple. It boils down to what an agent drawss their line in the sand. For some reason, that line has been very faintly drawn as a whole in this industry and too many agents feel almost forced to just jump and meet people whenever, and wherever, and at whatever time.
Robin Rogers - Thanks for the thanks, and I hope so too!
Jlyne Hanback - This industry is so far from being able to establish any standard on any level. Let's chalk that up to the fact that for the most part everyone is an "independent contractor", so "standards" and policies are often moving targets and hard to enforce. To me, I look at it as, I can only control what I can control. I wish the best for everyone, but I certainly won't expect that every agent will follow the same protocol or standards I do. But I also most certainly won't worry about competing with any other agent on the basis of ease and availability. And, thanks for the kind words!!!!
Pam Dent - I know, sad that there was another incident so quick on the heels of Beverly. And your geography sounds like it makes it hard to 100% require a public meeting spot. So you do what you can to be safe...
Suzi Keenan - I've heard from a few vegetarians! The bacon suggestion is not meant to be taken literally. It is a conversation stopper and starter is all. Exaggeration. Sounds like you have a down pat system and mentality for being in the field!
Chris Furtado - Thanks for chiming in again. Totally a real problem. Totally hoping this article helps some folks find a solution. Personally doubt there will be a universal solution....not to be pessimistic....just pragmatic.
Kathleen Lordbock - Thanks for the kind words and stay safe out there in your rural neck of the woods!
@Marlene Wasserstein - Thank you for your kind words and your words of wisdom.
Gary Rossignol - Cool of you to even think of mentioning this on your radio show! Thanks for all of your thoughts.
Eileen Knode - Exactly, most likely, someone just looking to do someone some harm is not going to jump through even the simplest of hoops.
Kathleen Luiten - Good policy only doing showing and opens with a buddy.
IRMA Beltran - You just made me feel really good. Thanks for the kind words!
Christine Smith - You and I sound like 2 peas in a pod...
Ricki Eichler - Yup, it should be the norm. But as far as I see it, it is on each individual agent to individually make it their own norm, thus eventually becoming the norm. Control what you can control.
Karen Pannell - Totally...yup, it is inconvenient, and sometimes people just have limited time and tight schedules. We are as a big ole bunch, pretty accomodating folks. And the majority of times, it's no biggie. Better to be safe than sorry.
Kathy Opatka - Glad you liked the alliteration. I like to alliterate. A lot. I do a lotta alliteration.
@Chris Furtado - Niiiiice. A hat trick! Thanks for all the comments.
James Renfro - I actually have had quite a few people reach out to me privately and ask if I thought this was "more of a woman issue". Sadly, I kinda do. Granted, it's just me and my thoughts. No data to support it. Good luck to you and your wife!
Lisanne Dickenson - Firearms, in the hands of someone trained and ready, willing and able are all good in my eyes. Thanks for all of your useful tips!
Bonnie Coakley - Instances like this are truly the exception to the rule. But it did certainly give so many agents pause to think.
Myrl Jeffcoat - How cool of you to call this an important post. That means a lot to me, so thanks. And I agree, it is so important to have people pre-approved as well.
Christi Farrington - First of all, I thought I was the only one that would have read all of the comments! So, I am impressed.... And I get that in many ways this whole discussion leads to just as many questions. If you are looking for a total solution, I can say that my real solution (not the bacon thing) has been for probably over a decade now, I just do not tae on clients who have not been directly referred to me. I am sorta hard to find. I don't advertise or market myself. If someone were to call me out of the blue, Id have some serious questions or reservations. I only develop business directly through and off of past clientele and a small number of "connectors" I network with. I know that sounds limiting to many agents, but it can and does work, and it certainly "solves" any of this sort of thing from happening.
@Gene Fitzpatrick - Yup, having a buddy would certainly help. A bit tough toake that happen every time an agent wants or needs to show a place, but it would certainly curtail something like what happened.
Ranee Bray, Realtor - First, thanks for that nice compliment. Totally means a ton to me. You are right, to a degree, it is part of the job. There are always times and scenarios in this profession that make for a difficult time dotting i's and crossing safety t's. I guess if you can't pick only the safe scenarios...then let there be pepper spray (or whatever other protectionary device).
Wanda Kubat-Nerdin Thanks for chiming in and your kind words!
Copper Neal - That's why I wrote this piece to the consumer as audience. Just debating it and discussing it within the industry does no good. Bringing the consumer into the conversation is important. But frankly, consumers don't and won't care even days after this happened, and certainly won't down the road a bit. Which is why the piece is also written to be remembered and shared as time progresses. Just a quick, absurd jab to get the consumer off of their need for immediacy and into a moment where they can understand the need for us to meet them up front. And for more than just our safety! For just simple good business and cousneling to be done...
Laura Moore - On the contrary...thank you for the good comments and the tip of the hat to other commentors.
@Anonymous #143 - Yup, that is the typical conundrum. The public doesn't care, and won't care....unless an agent makes them care. I've said it above a bunch, any call to action for "standards" en masse are unlikely, and not all that feasable, so the call to action (to me) is better off on the idividual basis. Give agents a way to call the consumer to some action, by disrupting their expectations absurdly.
Carolyn Roland-Historic Homes For Sale In Delaware, Cecil County, and S. Chester County - Ohhhhh, so true! Google 'em! I am a Googler. I Google everyone I am dealing with.
Donna Cook - I know weve been in touch off-screen already, but just wanted to say hey and thank you for the comment. nd I am so pumped that you are sharing this piece with your sphere in your newsletter!
Sharon Parisi - So glad you dug how I presented the info. Sounds like you have soe good protocol in place.
Donna M. Cook
West Milford, NJ
Anna Hatridge - Thanks for feeling the feeling I put into this... And it certainly is time for some change, but I say, no need to wait for everyone to change en masse, change on a personal level will suffice. Control what you can control...and don't wit for others. Least that's the way I tend to approach things.
Bruce Minter - Yeah, a few people have been sayin' this would be a better message for NAR to spend money on. I wont disagree with that. Not a huge fan of the generalized messaging they have tended to spend dough on.
Diana Dahlberg - I hope tons of consumers read it too! Totlly can't be too careful...
M.C. Dwyer - Thanks for the anniversary wish! And I am so glad it resonated because I truly was writing this in a way that it could be a voice / message for any and all agents who wanted it. Sometimes it's easier to bring in a 3rd party, objective POV into a conversation...blame the messenger instead of being the messenger.
Elizabeth Schwendeman - Yep, in a sense at least, I was "kidding" about bacon. I don't personally take people out for bacon or any sort of meal. And I certainly don't beg for business personally. I'm more the opposite. I'm super picky. The bacon thing is absurd and an exaggeration I figured would be memorable and would shift gears of a conversation is all.
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Gary L. Waters, Broker Owner Waters Realty of Brevard, LLC - Thanks for such kind words!
Cheryl Taylor - How cool of you!!! Thanks for posting on your company FB page!
Sandra Paulow - Thanks again for the re-blog of this! And your words, "Thanks you for writing what we have all been thinking.", may be the sentence that has meant the most to me over the course of the past week. That means a ton!
Sylvia Jonathan - In my area, bacon offends 37.9% of people. Wasn't meant to be taken literally...or if it was, that was fine as well. Just an absurd suggestion to switch the conversational gears when someone is pushing an agent to jump and show them a home.
Bill Morrow - Exactly! Personal standards and safety. I can't say that every agent needs to care about their safety one particular way or another, or to one degree or another.
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Mary Benton - Glad you have a good security guard! And a great bagel place. They serve bacon there?
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Mary Benton
Lubbock, TX
Joe, I'm impressed. You have taken the time to read and respond to practically everyone, if not all, who replied to your post! Amazing. I, too, try to work only with referrals. So far so good. Again, congratulations on making quite the statement that got so much attention. Great job and thank you!
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Jan Green
Scottsdale, AZ
Whoa - loads of comments. Breaking bacon is an idea we should all consider. I don't show many homes to strangers, but I used to. I used to race out to a house to be there and show it just when someone called. I won't be doing that again anytime soon. Words of wisdom here!
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Rita Harris
Seattle, WA
Diana Dahlberg
Pleasant Prairie, WI
Thank you for the reminder. In my office it is policy that I need to know before I go with whom I go. And on my trip I get irregular phone calls from my office that I have to answer in a certain way. If not the next call may be a call to the sheriff.
Sunny greetings from Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Like you said, in today's frenzied environment of chasing every lead that appears, we forget about our safety. I know I do. I won't carry a gun. I probably won't utilize a safety app. But, I will be mindful of the situations that I put myself into and I think "Breakin' Bacon" is a great idea for clearing up some uncertainities. Thanks for the well written post!
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Christi Farrington - Yeah, it took me a while to actually get to all of the replies. Glad to hear you are also able to work mostly with referrals. Nice way to roll if you can.
Jan Green - Me too. I think every agent does end up meeting "strangers" at some point or another, especially early on.
Andrea HoffDomin - Wow, sounds like your office is able to pull off quite an intricate (or at least laborious) method! Nice. Bet it is a nice feeling to have such a tight-knit office.
Mike Reyman - Thanks for taking the point of the bacon in the proper persepctive...and the article as a whole. It really is about just being conscientious and not putting oneself in the wrong scenario (as much as possible).
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Jan Green
Scottsdale, AZ
Mike Reyman
Media, PA
Joe, I have also lost a friend in this business. A man made an appointment to see a vacant house with a Realtor. She brought her husband and was sitting in the car with him when the potential "buyer" drove up. When he saw this, he kept going. He did find an open house that he went into and killed the agent. Upon his arrest, it was learned that he had used this across the country to assault and rob Realtors as well as sellers, going to their doors and posing as a buyer.
Having someone with her certainly saved one agent in my area. Great idea. However, I never show a buyer anything unless they are pre-approved by a verifiable lender and show that they are "ready, willing and able" to buy. This is pretty much standard practice in my area among seasoned agents. Why would you show a $500,000 home to someone who can only afford $300,000? Seller's also should not have to worry about "tire-kickers" going through their homes -- only potential qualified buyers.
It is doubtful that someone meaning you harm would go through the time consuming task of getting pre-qualified or approved.
Great subject to post about -- as you can see, one of my personal concerns as well. Thanks!!
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Rita Harris
Seattle, WA
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Love the "breakin bacon" point you make. Excellent blog!
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Aww, I'm truly sorry to hear about your friend Edith Raney. What's been so interesting to me in the past week is how many individual agents have reached out to me in different ways saying they had also known someone who was either assaulted, murdered, or at least found themselves in a threatening situation.
Stay safe, and my heart goes out to you...
Diane Beaumont - Thanks! Glad you like it and the "breakin' bacon" angle.
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Edith Raney
Denton, TX
As my business is in my home my first meeting with the client is often at Starbucks. Thanks for the post.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Gene Riemenschneider
Brentwood, CA
Gene Riemenschneider - Ditto! I love Starbucks unwitting free rent policy for real estate agents.
Thank you for this post. Most enlightening and great ideas. This business slays me on just SO many fronts! Shall I expand?
1. Just WHY did we ever allow interior photos of homes to go out onto the internet for any "perp" to size up the house and know the best place to attack, or steal, or, or, or? We USED to be "The Gatekeepers" to protect our sellers and their items. Now we also are worried about our own safety.
2. You must have your headshot, phone number, email, etc. available on the internet "to be found" as they say in media. A "perp" just has to go thru enough photos to pick out someone.
3. We are supposed to be professionals, in a professional industry. Would your attorney or doctor see you at the drop of the hat, unless it was a lifethreatening emergency? You'd be setting an appointment and going thru some symptoms screening (prequalification) or interview process to see if the lawyer wanted to handle your case. We have NOT done a very good job of educating this demanding, it's-all-about-me-and-my-immediate-gratification society what our standards of conduct are and ways we are wiling to do business.
Our office discussed going out in pairs to show houses, bring along adult children, a spouse, etc. Open Houses should be held with multiple agents too. In my area where it's a brisk buying environment, having multiple agents available to handle the flow of people and keep an eye on the seller's stuff, can be handy!
I personally prefer to work with referrals only, but even then, how do you REALLY know this isn't gonna be some kook?
One of the strategies I suggested from a previous place of employment, was to:
- Meet the prospect at the office (inconvenient as it may be at time). I too, have used McDonalds and French Fries as the lure to write many transactions. I don't meet people at shopping malls.
- Introduce the person around to staff and others in the office (more eyes-on as it were)
- Photocopy the buyer's driver's license and submit it AND your tour schedule to a staff person so they know where you intend to go. If the prospect isn't willing to go thru these hoops, they could be hiding something or not intended for you as a client.
- Take your own car. DON'T ride with them. If you have to get away in a hurry, have your own wheels and don't be blocked in.
I think we need to re-evaluate professional standards, personal safety, and what sort of tolerance we are willing to endure to earn a living. Chasing every prospect may not be the wisest option.
All the best from the NW!
Rita Harris in Seattle
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
I added an additional service app on my phone. Safety first!
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Anna Hatridge
Farmington, MO
Rita Harris - Hey, Rita! Thanks for all of your thoughts! I'll focus on only one due to some time constraints... Beyond our personal safety, I've also felt it is our responsibility to consider the safety of our clients who have property listed.
Really good point about how much detail we make available readily online. I tend to lean toward putting pictures online, but I make it difficult enough to go see so that only serious buyers with a sincere interest in a particular property make the effort to go see the house.
I don't even put up yard signs. (And clients are not only OK with it, they love that.)
Rita Harris
Seattle, WA
Kathleen Luiten - Out of curiousity, you say "additional" app....
Do you use more than one for safety purposes?
Are they redundant?
Or would you use all of them for different reasons if you were in a threatened position?
Kathleen Luiten
Princeville, HI
It is difficult in day time not to show houses a loan. May part of the sign up procedure should include taking a photo of the driver's license.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Good question, Joe. My go-to app for safety is Real Alert. It has buttons for calling 911 or my contact person, plus other features including a sound alarm. I added another app that has the regular check-in feature, so an alert is sent to my contact person if I don't check-in again and again throughout the time period. I don't want to be distracted by that in most circumstances but will use it when I think there is greater risk. In my market that's more likely to be out in the country with no neighbors near by. I haven't been out to isolated properties since I got that app but I will use both apps whenever I think I need the check-in feature.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Jeff Jensen - I agree, I think it is hard to show property with someone at any tie of day. Surely it is a good idea, but just difficult and limiting to implement. and seems tht taking a picture of the client's driver's license is ine of the more popular changes people are adopting.
Kathleen Luiten - Thanks for responding and elaborating!
I often find doing a google search on the person gives me useful info, both for safety and to help build the relationship.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Hi Joe Kerouac , We have started meeting clients at a Supermarket deli. They have about 5 in the area, complete with a starbucks. It woks out well.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Larry Johnston -- Meeting in the supermarket makes it so you can legitimately suggest meeting over bacon...
Thanks for chiming in.
Hi, I really enjoyed coming across your blog among the many archieves. Thanks for being apart of Active Rain.
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
All good .. I have made it a practice for a while of meeting new clients somewhere other than a property. Now I ask for identification, take a picture of that ID and email it to my office. I have not experienced any objections to that just questions, and my response is simple; two agents were killed in the last two weeks. One in an open house in Iowa and one in Little Rock. Yes that adds some tension to the first meeting but my thought is criminals don't want to be identified. If anyone does refuse they can call another agent.
Christi Farrington
Wilton, CT
Kathy Opatka
Ocean City, MD
Liz Lockhart
Cape Girardeau, MO
Joe Kerouac
Madison, NJ
Wayne L. Brown
Alpine, CA
Kathy Fisher
Decatur, TX