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I am not Superman---I actually CANNOT see through walls.

By
Home Inspector with Charles Buell Inspections Inc.

This post will be an attempt to clarify the title of the post. 

While this simple fact may seem obvious, we constantly hear stories about what the inspector should have been able to see, superman style, when the remodeling starts.

In the best of scenarios the inspector will note the warning signs that might be an indication of hidden issues, but sometimes this is not going to be anywhere close to representing what is really going on.

One of my favorite such scenarios is “sleeper floors.”  Sleeper floors are floors that have been built over other floors.  Sometimes it is simply a means to level other floors that slope too much, or people don’t want concrete floors, or they want to raise the floors for plumbing and heating components. 

They are not always installed because of something negative going on underneath them.  A common use of a sleeper floor is when the garage is converted to living space. 

They all have one thing in common however.  It is not possible to tell what is going on underneath them! 

I cannot tell you what kind of materials were used, whether vapor barriers have been used, whether there is moisture underneath, whether there is wood decay/rot present, whether there is wood destroying ant activity, or whether there is any other kind of floor underneath.  There is the dreaded scenario of their being nothing but dirt underneath.  At the very least such floors will be reported as conditions conducive to wood destroying organisms.

Here is a picture from a recent inspection showing the finished basement room.  Again I could not answer the question of what was going on underneath and the owner took it upon themselves to remove all the wood paneling and wood sleeper floor to see what was going on because at one corner there was elevated moisture present.

sleeper floor
This next picture shows the same room.  While it is hard to see in the picture, the slope across the concrete floor, from where I took the picture, is about 5 inches.  This badly settled floor is consistent with the rather large crack visible in the picture that was certainly not visible when the paneling was present.  I knew the house had settled, because of the sloping floors above and surmised that this settlement accounted for installation of the sleeper floor.

What is under the sleeper floor
The point of the post is to show how much more becomes apparent when you can tear things apart. 

Before the demolition, one could not even tell if there was any concrete under the sleeper floor. 

When your inspector reports, “hidden concerns may exist and only become apparent during invasive investigation.” 

He likely means exactly what he says.

Charles Buell, Real Estate Inspections in Seattle

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Seattle Home Inspector

 

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John Mosier
Realty ONE Group Mountain Desert - Prescott, AZ
Prescott's Patriot Agent 928 533-8142

Most home buyers would not know to look for or how to identify a sleeper floor. The fact that you know there is one and explain it in your inspection report is good for the buyer to know. Even though an inspector cannot see through walls, there are clues that should be investigated further.

Apr 19, 2015 01:56 AM
Charles Buell
Charles Buell Inspections Inc. - Seattle, WA
Seattle Home Inspector

Joan, he would put us all out of business

Praful, that is right

Sharon, it always comes to a point of where you might have to get pretty aggressive to find stuff and then if you open stuff up and find nothing---that is not good either

Jay, it just seems to come with the job I guess---and just keep those spectacles clean

Jim, yes, and interestingly enough the moisture I found in the picture above had nothing to do with the large crack that showed up---not signs of moisture at that crack at all.

Nina, I am afraid that is a myth.  Infr-red cameras can only read surface temperatures.

Kat, so true

Richard, yes---there will still often be the "hints" of issues

Gary, I seem to do better with reading minds :)

Richie, we certainly teach it in Home Inspection School

Fred, yes---and make WAY more money

Margaret, a myth who's time has come.

John, it is easy sometimes to miss a sleeper floor.

Apr 19, 2015 02:14 AM
Jeff Dowler, CRS
eXp Realty of California, Inc. - Carlsbad, CA
The Southern California Relocation Dude

Gee wiz, Charles Buell I thought all inspectors had xray vision as a requirement of the job. Clearly many buyers and sellers think they do

Can't say I've ever heard the term "sleeper floor" so I've learned a couple of things here

Jeff

Apr 19, 2015 03:25 AM
Charles Buell
Charles Buell Inspections Inc. - Seattle, WA
Seattle Home Inspector

Jeff, I wonder if they are called something else in other parts of the world.

Apr 19, 2015 05:25 AM
Lyn Sims
Schaumburg, IL
Real Estate Broker Retired

I didn't know they called it that but my head gave the exact example you gave of people raising the floor in a converted garage to keep it warmer. Sometimes too you don't have to step down in the familyroom then when you do this - raise it to the regular house floors so to speak.

Apr 20, 2015 01:55 AM
Martin E. Kalisker, Esq.
Natick, MA
Real Estate Law From A Practical Perspective

Very interesting post and discussion.  While there may not have been any activity for several years (as evidenced by the age and condition of the paneling),  you never know what a buyer's intended purpose is for the space with the damage.  Unfortunately, once you open up Pandora's box, everyone must pay the price.

Apr 20, 2015 04:23 AM
Wayne B. Pruner
Oregon First - Tigard, OR
Tigard Oregon Homes for Sale, Realtor, GRI

You can't report on what you can't see. Still, a home inspection is absolutely necessary.

Apr 21, 2015 02:08 AM
Gene Riemenschneider
Home Point Real Estate - Brentwood, CA
Turning Houses into Homes

Faster than a speeding escrow, more powerful than a ticked off loan underwriter, climbs tall buildings with a single ladder.  Look up in the internet - It's Super Home Inspector.

Apr 21, 2015 03:20 AM
Marte Cliff
Marte Cliff Copywriting - Priest River, ID
Your real estate writer

Darn. You've just destroyed my illusions. I thought you and the other inspectors who post here on AR really could see through walls, ceilings, floors, and even the dirt covering those dead bodies out in the garden. 

How many sellers are willing to do the invasive procedures necessary to get at the root of a problem? 

Apr 21, 2015 04:05 AM
Sharon Parisi
United Real Estate Dallas - Dallas, TX
Dallas Homes

This house looks downright frightening to me!  Buyers need to be reminded that inspectors do not have superhuman powers and x-ray vision.

Apr 21, 2015 05:23 AM
Kimo Jarrett
Cyber Properties - Huntington Beach, CA
Pro Lifestyle Solutions

When it appears that there is a problem during inspection, it's best to perform an invasive inspection with the sellers approval to investigate the problem and determine what if any action must be taken to either repair or replace a fixture or structure. 

Apr 22, 2015 06:21 PM
Charles Buell
Charles Buell Inspections Inc. - Seattle, WA
Seattle Home Inspector

Lyn, yes, lots of times it is done to keep all the floors at the same level

Martin, and every house has Pandora's box to some degree

Wayne, so true

Gene, where is my cape?

Marte, sometimes it is the seller that must do it if they want to sell I guess

Sharon, well that one room was "interesting"----the rest of the house not so much :)

Kimo, I find it is usually the seller that ends up responsible for the additional invasive investigation

Apr 25, 2015 01:17 AM
Rene Fabre
ARFCO Media - Renton, WA
Practicing Philosophical Eclectic of the Arts

Hi Charles Buell ... So, you don't have xray vision?  I owned a rambler several years ago. The garage was converted into a bedroom and den. Of course the concrete floor slopped and a sleeper floor was installed over it. But it was a home job and when we bought the house in the heat of summer everything was okay. Come winter though, you could feel the cold air moving because nothing had been done to stop it and you always had cold feet!  The things we learn a long the way! Great post!

Apr 27, 2015 01:40 AM
Charles Buell
Charles Buell Inspections Inc. - Seattle, WA
Seattle Home Inspector

Rene, there are always the things that get discovered later.  Looking forward to our 14 Carrot MeetUP on the 11th of May!

Apr 27, 2015 01:42 AM
Deleted Account
Fort Myers, FL

I have to agree with you, you can't see through walls.  What a couple of inspectors that I use will do is make a note of possible problems where they can't see, if there is a sign of a problem.

Another thing is people seem to think that if the inspector says it works fine, then it will work fine 3 weeks later after the closing takes place.  A client paid to have an inspection done, which I attended and as part of the inspection, the inspector turned off and turned on all of the water shut off valves to the sinks and toilets.  I watched him check them and they all worked fine.  We did the final walk through and all seemed fine, but we never thought to look under the kitchen sink.  All seemed good and we closed on the sale.  The next day, the buyers moved in and was putting things under the kitchen sink and there was a small leak coming from the shut off valve.  When the buyer tried to turn it off, it started leaking badly and they had to shut the water off outside.  I watched the inspector check this was in plain sight and it worked fine with no leaks.  It was in that 3 week period that it went bad.  So, it is not always the inspector's fault.

Apr 27, 2015 03:06 AM
Charles Buell
Charles Buell Inspections Inc. - Seattle, WA
Seattle Home Inspector

William, you state that the inspector shut off and on the valves under the sink and under the toilet?  Inspectors should NOT be messing with these valves for the very reason that they often do leak.  These valves that are not used on a regular basis should not be operated by the inspector in my opinion.

Apr 27, 2015 03:11 AM
Deleted Account
Fort Myers, FL

I do agree that you are right, but I was told differently by two inspectors.  Their reasoning was that if an emergency arose, the owners would be able to shut them off, which is the reason they check them.

Apr 27, 2015 03:26 AM
Charles Buell
Charles Buell Inspections Inc. - Seattle, WA
Seattle Home Inspector

I think the client is better served by telling them to check them themselves and tell them that they will leak,so be careful

Apr 27, 2015 03:54 AM
Jan Green - Scottsdale, AZ
Value Added Service, 602-620-2699 - Scottsdale, AZ
HomeSmart Elite Group, REALTOR®, EcoBroker, GREEN

A great home inspector in action!  As others have written, looking for clues helps to determine what course of action is next, ie tearing out the floor!

Apr 27, 2015 09:14 AM
Winston Heverly
Coldwell Banker Access Realty - South Macon, GA
GRI, ABR, SFR, CDPE, CIAS, PA

Hi, I love your post really hit home, glad I came across it in the archieves. Thanks for sharing.

Apr 29, 2015 12:45 PM