Allan Rolnick, Tax Debt Resolution serving the NYC Metro Area  (Tristate Tax Resolution LLC)

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Fred Griffin
Fred Griffin Real Estate - Tallahassee, FL
Licensed Florida Real Estate Broker

  Shout out to lenders John Meussner and Caroline Gerardo and George Souto and Gene Mundt, IL/WI Mortgage Originator - FHA/VA/Conv/Jumbo/Portfolio/Refi and  Rob Spinosa 

  Perhaps one of them can give you a definitive answer.

Apr 08, 2018 04:05 PM
Wayne Martin
Wayne M Martin - Chicago, IL
Real Estate Broker

Call Gene Mundt, IL/WI Mortgage Originator - FHA/VA/Conv/Jumbo/Portfolio/RefiGeorge Souto or @Joe Petrowski.

Apr 08, 2018 02:41 PM
Debbie Reynolds
Platinum Properties - Clarksville, TN
Your Dedicated Clarksville TN Real Estate Agent

There should be a directive or exemption letter that you can find that will substantiate this. The underwriter will know what document is acceptable.

Apr 08, 2018 02:33 PM
JoAnn Moore
The Mortgage Market of Delaware - Georgetown, DE
Home Loans in Delaware

Ask the loan originator to talk with the underwriter and clarify this. It may be that the underwriter is new and has not come across this before or it was a condition that automatically populated. Or, it may be that they want to make sure there isn't a business the borrower owns that is losing money.

Apr 08, 2018 01:51 PM
John Meussner
Mason-McDuffie Mortgage, Conventional Loans, Jumbo Loans, FHA, 203(k), USDA, VA, - Walnut Creek, CA
#MortgageMadeEasy Walnut Creek, CA 484-680-4852

You should be able to get around this.  There are multiple ways to prove pension and social security income without tax returns.  What you may have to show is evidence 1040s were not filed (which is easy enough to get from the IRS), but that would be worst case scenario.


Asset statements showing deposits, along with award letters would be sufficient evidence of the income.  Good luck Allan Rolnick .  If the lender can't get this cleared up (potentially maybe it's a lender overlay?) feel free to give me a call.  We cover Washington State and do many VA loans.  


Hopefully the current lender can get it together for you, though.

Apr 08, 2018 10:33 PM
Kathleen Daniels
KD Realty - 408.972.1822 - San Jose, CA
San Jose Homes for Sale-Probate & Trust Specialist

You have some great answers here.  I'd be escalating the matter with the lender/underwriting team for clarification. 

I'd make sure the buyer is working with an EXPERIENCED VA lender.

Bank statements showing the two deposits each month will prove income. Social Security and Pension both send end of year statements which will marry up well with the bank statements showing deposits. 

Apr 08, 2018 03:25 PM
Dan Tabit
Northstone Real Estate Inc. - Sammamish, WA

Earnings statements from each source going back as far as he has them, along with any annual summaries provided may be the best he can do. I agree, the underwriter may have the answer or need to get creative.  Best of luck.

Apr 08, 2018 01:54 PM
Jerry Thomas-Construction Loans
Cranbrook Loans - Farmington Hills, MI
Construction Loans Conv/FHA/VA

Signed letter of explination by the borrower plus a copy of the IRS guidelines.

Apr 09, 2018 04:12 AM
Paul S. Henderson, REALTOR®,CRS,
RE/MAX Professionals. - Tacoma, WA
Tacoma Washington Agent/Broker & Market Authority!

Wow! That is interesting...

A little to close to comfort in Tacoma.

Apr 08, 2018 09:13 PM
Dave Halpern
Keller Williams Realty Louisville East (502) 664-7827 - Louisville, KY
Louisville Short Sale Expert

I had the same exact problem last November. The lender didn't budge. The mortgage broker had to find a different lender/investor.

Apr 08, 2018 06:15 PM
Debe Maxwell, CRS | The Maxwell House Group | RE/MAX Executive | (704) 491-3310 - Charlotte, NC
Charlotte Homes for Sale - Charlotte Neighborhoods

Let the lender know this - the underwriter should be able to make this requirement an exception for your buyer. Good luck, Allan!

Apr 08, 2018 04:52 PM
Barbara Todaro
RE/MAX Executive Realty - Franklin, MA
"Franklin MA Homes"

good question for George Souto or Gene Mundt, IL/WI Mortgage Originator - FHA/VA/Conv/Jumbo/Portfolio/Refi  

Apr 08, 2018 04:33 PM
Ryan Huggins - Thousand Oaks, CA - Thousand Oaks, CA
Residential Real Estate and Investment Properties



My thought is to have a discussion about the buyer's situation with the lender and have them take it back to underwritting.  There may be a need to have the buyer put it in writing.  If that doesn't get resolved, or they don't know, I'd find a lender that specializes in VA loans.  I've seen specialists make a significant difference in the ability of a VA buyer to get a purchase accepted.

Apr 08, 2018 04:05 PM
Mike & Eve Alexander
Buyers Broker of Florida - Orlando, FL
Exclusively Representing ONLY Orlando Home Buyers

Then he needs to provide proof  of what he does get and from where... and that he does not need to file...


Apr 08, 2018 01:52 PM
Bob Crane
Woodland Management Service / Woodland Real Estate, Keller Williams fox cities - Stevens Point, WI
Forestland Experts! 715-204-9671

Provide the docs you have, if not good enough maybe you will need a different lender or to fill out the tax forms.

Apr 08, 2018 07:18 PM
Richie Alan Naggar
people first...then business Ran Right Realty - Riverside, CA
agent & author

Proof of income is established...the rest is self-evident. Lender needs a wake-up call or you need a new lender

Apr 08, 2018 04:54 PM
Harry Norman, REALTORS® - Atlanta, GA
Associate Broker

You would need to consult with a lender on this one Allan.

Apr 08, 2018 03:33 PM
Michael Jacobs
Coldwell Banker Residential Brokerage - Pasadena, CA
Los Angeles Pasadena Area Real Estate 818.516.4393

Explain this to the lender and if the response you receive does not make sense, proceed accordingly. 

Apr 08, 2018 03:07 PM
Nina Hollander
RE/MAX Executive | Charlotte, NC - Charlotte, NC
Your Charlotte/Ballantyne/Waxhaw/Fort Mill Realtor

Check with some other lenders how they handle this. I can't believe there isn't an exception in a case like this.

Apr 08, 2018 03:03 PM
Roy Kelley
Realty Group Referrals - Gaithersburg, MD
Roy and Dolores Kelley Photographs

You may need to find another lender.

Apr 08, 2018 02:09 PM
Lynnea Miller
Bend Premier Real Estate - Bend, OR
Premier Real Estate Service in Central Oregon

Another lender or loan program may work. 

Apr 08, 2018 02:05 PM
J.R. Schloemer, CRS
Kentucky Select Properties - Louisville, KY

Find another lender maybe. I'd call a lender you know and trust to guide this client through the purchase gambit. 

Apr 08, 2018 02:03 PM
Caroline Gerardo
Eagle Home Mortgage, LENNAR HOMES Home Loans - Newport Beach, CA
C. G. Barbeau the Loan Lady

If this lender says the Tax return is required: he needs to file. He can go ahead and efile 2015 2016 2017 today but it will take 2-3 weeks for the 4506T to perhaps see the reports. If this LENDER SPECIFIC requirement is not "waiveable" here is maybe why- I've seen taxes for same where they write off more expenses for their side gig than the income, or they claim losses carried forward... Did he turn in anything that shows a business name on the bank statements? IF you Google search his mailing ADDRESSES do any show a business?

Get out the SSI and VA 1099 and do an IRS FREE FILE NOW


MAKE COPIES for the lender they may have to check the 4506T a couple times.

IF "$25,000 annual total income for single, head of household, qualifying widow or widower with a dependent child or married individuals filing separately who did not live with their spouse at any time during the year;

$32,000 for married couples filing jointly; Then we would not require the filing


Apr 09, 2018 11:00 AM
Libby Cousins
Extraordinary Processing - Spokane, WA
Contract Mortgage Processor, licensed in WA

I agree with others that the lender should accept a copy of the award letter and banks statements showing monthly receipt. You could get a tax transcript showing taxes haven't been filed but that seems like overkill. You should also be able to search the IRS website and print something stating that, with the income that he receives, there is no requirement to file taxes. Print that and have the LO give it to the underwriter. Often, UWs just do the "canned" conditions but will adjust them when the LO or broker points out why they are not needed or available. 

Apr 09, 2018 10:15 AM
Jason E. Gordon
AmeriFirst Financial Inc, San Diego, CA - San Diego, CA
Sr. Loan Officer, CMPS, CDLP, RCS-D, CDPE, CMHS

In lieu of Federal Tax Returns, Lenders can source the income via an "Award Letter" (from US Treasury, etc.) to determine the amount & frequency of income, and whether or not the income is taxable. If your Lender does not wish to budge on their stance, we will be happy to take a look at it and guide you & your client accordingly.

Apr 09, 2018 09:09 AM
Gabe Sanders
Real Estate of Florida specializing in Martin County Residential Homes, Condos and Land Sales - Stuart, FL
Stuart Florida Real Estate

I believe they still file a tax return stating the above.

Apr 09, 2018 05:53 AM
Lyn Sims
RE/MAX Suburban - Schaumburg, IL
Schaumburg IL Area Real Estate

Produce the IRS statute & the check stubs. That's the most you can do. Where the hell is the LO in all of this? Any good LO would know the answer to help you.

Might have to get a benefits total from the VA also.

Apr 09, 2018 05:23 AM
Tony and Suzanne Marriott, Associate Brokers
BVO Luxury Group @ Keller Williams Arizona Realty - Scottsdale, AZ
Serving Scottsdale, Phoenix and Maricopa County AZ

Debe Maxwell, CRS nailed this one!

Apr 09, 2018 04:45 AM
Praful Thakkar
LAER Realty Partners - Andover, MA
Andover, MA: Andover Luxury Homes For Sale

A catch 22, Allan Rolnick.

Ask the lender about the other options.

Apr 08, 2018 09:52 PM
Jeff Dowler, CRS
Solutions Real Estate - Carlsbad, CA
The Southern California Relocation Dude - Carlsbad

I was going to suggest the mortgage professionals we have here to check in for ideas. Perhaps another lender who understands this scenario?

Apr 08, 2018 08:43 PM
Thomas J. Nelson, Realtor, ePRO, CRS, RCS-D
Big Block Realty 858.232.8722 - La Jolla, CA
& Host of Postcards From Success Podcast

New lender that gets it, like Jason E. Gordon 

Apr 08, 2018 08:14 PM
Joe Pryor
The Virtual Real Estate Team - Oklahoma City, OK
REALTOR® - Oklahoma Investment Properties

Have to find out wnat alternatives the lender has.

Apr 08, 2018 05:46 PM
Anthony Kirlew
Fiscally Sound - Gilbert, AZ
Helping You Make Fiscally Sound Choices

If it's not required, they should accept whatever form of documentation for his Pension and SSD. As others have said, make sure you are working with an experienced VA lender.

Apr 11, 2018 08:43 PM
Joan Cox
Metro Brokers - House to Home, Inc. - Denver Real Estate - 720-231-6373 - Denver, CO
Denver Real Estate - Selling One Home at a Time

Good question, now reading comments.

Apr 11, 2018 08:26 AM
John Juarez
The Medford Real Estate Team - Fremont, CA

I see comments that mention the potential of taxable write-offs showing up in tax returns. But…He did not file so that is a moot point. If he does not have to file, why would he file to write off expenses when he is already not paying. IRS 4506-T will show no returns files. Income can be documented from other sources as mentioned by other commenters.

Apr 10, 2018 07:56 AM
Allan Rolnick
Tristate Tax Resolution LLC - Sunnyside, NY
Tax Debt Resolution serving the NYC Metro Area

Thanks to everyone for their responses. It is greatly appreciated. I will let you know how it turns out.

Apr 09, 2018 06:51 PM
Will Hamm
Hamm Homes - Aurora, CO
"Where There's a Will, There's a Way!"

Excellent question, have to see what others have to say.


Apr 09, 2018 05:21 PM
Gene Mundt, IL/WI Mortgage Originator - FHA/VA/Conv/Jumbo/Portfolio/Refi
NMLS #216987, IL Lic. 031.0006220, WI Licensed. APMC NMLS #175656 - New Lenox, IL
708.921.6331 - 40+ yrs experience

John Meussner has nailed the answer to this inquiry, Allan Rolnick.   I don’t think I can add a whole lot further, but IMO …

“Actual Underwriting Condition” could be semantics ... or the translation  could be getting lost.  Essentially, moving forward, I believe the Lender should make a request for  “Transcripts” from the IRS stating,  “No evidence of Return Filed” . Income should then be proven for Underwriting and Loan by other means (as John has stated). 

There should be no need for Tax Returns to be filed by the Loan Applicant … or produced by that Applicant for their Lender .  A Borrower cannot (or should not be asked to) produce what does not exist or required by their State.  Facts, financial information gathered, the State in which this application is taking place all point to there being no need. 

This is a very interesting scenario. I would be interested in hearing how the Applicant and  Lender actually end-up handling this scenario ... and their success with their approach.  Please follow-up with us in the future.  We all can learn from your experience …  thanks!

Thanks to all that gave a shout out to me ... it's greatly appreciated and valued!


Apr 09, 2018 01:56 PM
Olga Simoncelli
Veritas Prime, LLC dba Veritas Prime Real Estate - New Fairfield, CT
CONSULTANT, Real Estate Services & Risk Management

Find a different banker!

Apr 09, 2018 12:23 PM
Ron and Alexandra Seigel
Napa Consultants - Carpinteria, CA
Luxury Real Estate Branding, Marketing & Strategy


You have great answers.  

Apr 09, 2018 09:35 AM
Richard Weeks
Dallas, TX
REALTOR®, Broker

Find a lender with a brain.

Apr 09, 2018 06:25 AM
Gita Bantwal
RE/MAX Centre Realtors - Warwick, PA
REALTOR,ABR,CRS,SRES,GRI - Bucks County & Philadel

Good luck.

Apr 09, 2018 04:17 AM
Sam Shueh
(408) 425-1601 - San Jose, CA
mba, cdpe, reopro, pe

Show the income documents.

Apr 08, 2018 08:14 PM
William Feela
Realtor, Whispering Pines Realty 651-674-5999 No.

It may be time to change lenders.

Apr 08, 2018 06:48 PM