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Happy MMXII To All!

By
Home Stager with Nestings: Connecticut Home Staging and Model Homes

#4?

What's wrong with this picture?

Caution:  Do NOT buy this wall clock!!!  It's just plain wrong.  While over-sized wall clocks make a great impact, and I LOVE to use them for Home Staging, there are some on the market that are just not right.  Here's another faulty clock:

#4?

Do YOU know what's wrong?

#4

This one is correct.

What's the difference?

This has bothered me for quite a while, but rather than just open my mouth and rant about it, I decided to do the adult thing and check it out.  I wanted to be sure I was right before I ranted.  Perhaps I really am an old fuddy-duddy who missed the news that the old Roman numeral IV is now IIII.  But why would they change it?  Seldom used, except on decorative wall clocks and in movie credits, Roman numerals are just not trending on Twitter - until, perhaps, today.  (#Romannumerals!)

So, I checked it out on the internet.  There's actually a website for Roman Numerals:  www.roman-numerals.org!  (Believe me, when They say there's a website for everything, They're right!)

I'm right.  IIII is wrong; IV is still correct. 

The website is also very useful for converting the gibberish that many larger Roman numerals look like to intelligible digits.

Happy MMXII to you all - let's make it a great year!!!

EDIT/ALERT:  Thanks to the tenacious Debbie Gartner (her second comment, below), there are several reasons why IIII is appropriate for a clock!  I stand corrected, and am relieved to be rid of this rant!!!  The following is from Wikipedia:

IIII on clocks

A typical clock face with Roman numerals in Bad Salzdetfurth, Germany
The Shepherd gate clock with Roman numbers up to XXIII (and 0), in Greenwich

Clock faces that are labeled using Roman numerals conventionally show IIII for four o'clock and IX for nine o'clock, using the subtractive principle in one case and not the other. There are many suggested explanations for this:

  • Many clocks use IIII because that was the tradition established by the earliest surviving clock, the Wells Cathedral clock built between 1386 and 1392. It used IIII because that was the typical method used to denote 4 in contemporary manuscripts (as iiij or iiii). That clock had an asymmetrical 24-hour dial and used Arabic numerals for a minute dial and a moon dial, so theories depending on a symmetrical 12-hour clock face do not apply.[22]
  • Perhaps IV was avoided because IV represented the Roman god Jupiter, whose Latin name, IVPPITER, begins with IV. This suggestion has been attributed to Isaac Asimov.[23]
  • Louis XIV, king of France, who preferred IIII over IV, ordered his clockmakers to produce clocks with IIII and not IV, and thus it has remained.[24]
  • Using standard numerals, two sets of figures would be similar and therefore confusable by children and others unused to reading clockfaces: IV and VI are similar, as are IX and XI. As the first pair are upside down on the face, an additional level of confusion would be introduced—a confusion avoided by using IIII to provide a clear distinction from VI.
  • The four-character form IIII creates a visual symmetry with the VIII on the other side, which the two-character IV would not.
  • With IIII, the number of symbols on the clock totals twenty Is, four Vs, and four Xs,[25] so clock makers need only a single mold with a V, five Is, and an X in order to make the correct number of numerals for their clocks: VIIIIIX. This is cast four times for each clock and the twelve required numerals are separated:
    • V IIII IX
    • VI II IIX
    • VII III X
    • VIII I IX
The IIX and one of the IXs are rotated 180° to form XI and XII. The alternative with IV uses seventeen Is, five Vs, and four Xs, requiring the clock maker to have several different molds.
  • Only the I symbol would be seen in the first four hours of the clock, the V symbol would only appear in the next four hours, and the X symbol only in the last four hours. This would add to the clock's radial symmetry.
Sally Weatherley
EXIT STAGE RIGHT - Vancouver, BC
Vancouver Home Staging, Home Stager Vancouver, B.C

Julie - Oh IV heaven's sake!  I can imagine coming across IIII once and thinking someone just made a typo, but to see several examples of IIII is actually rather disturbing.  Of course the Roman numeral for 4 is IV.  It has been that way for centuries.  A well-deserved rant!

Jan 01, 2012 03:55 AM
Ginger Foust
Certified Staging Professional - Oakhurst, CA
Home Stager Oakhurst CA, Dream Interior Redesign & Staging

Julie, big smiles from me on this post!  I hadn't seen the IIII used but I too would have objected.  Roman numerals have too much history to be changed.  Admittedly, when I had to teach them to young children the small numerals proceeding the larger (and thus needing to be subtracted) was confusing but they needed to learn it.  I'm betting that the need for changing it came from a group that has struggled with it (and all other math for that matter).  I wonder if it's still being taught in the school systems and what they're using for FOUR????  Happy New Year!

Jan 01, 2012 04:38 AM
Ginger Foust
Certified Staging Professional - Oakhurst, CA
Home Stager Oakhurst CA, Dream Interior Redesign & Staging

Julie, your post got me thinking and wondering.  Doesn't this mean that 9 should be VIIII not IX, and thereby 14 is XIIII, not XIV and so on????  Does the website go in to it? 

Jan 01, 2012 04:50 AM
Julia Maher
Nestings: Connecticut Home Staging and Model Homes - Fairfield, CT
Connecticut Home Stager

Hi Ginger - too funny!  And five is now IIIII?  It's just wrong - and I blame the educational system.  (Since when did "conversate" become a real word?)  Yes, the clocks were probably made in China, but had to be based on a prototype from someone who should have known better

Hi Sally - This has bugged me since I saw one of these clocks on the cover of an upscale catalog.

Incredible photo, Roy - thanks for sharing!

Thanks for your support, Richie, although yesterday my husband told me I dance like Ethel Mertz.

Happy New Year, John!

Jan 01, 2012 05:24 AM
Ginger Foust
Certified Staging Professional - Oakhurst, CA
Home Stager Oakhurst CA, Dream Interior Redesign & Staging

Julie, sorry to birdwalk here but check this out: 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=conversate  

Worthy of a giggle and gotcha! 

Jan 01, 2012 05:31 AM
Debbie Gartner
The Flooring Girl - White Plains, NY
The Flooring Girl & Blog Stylist -Dynamo Marketers

Happy New year, Julia and welcome back.  Yes, I learned Roman Numerals at an early age and IIII is soooooo wrong.  Now, why the heck are they doing that?  You NEVER go beyond 3 digits of the same.  Never.  Are they just stupid/ignorant or is there an artistic or other reason?

Jan 01, 2012 05:47 AM
Maureen Bray Portland OR Home Stager ~ Room Solutions Staging
Room Solutions Staging, Portland OR - Portland, OR
"Staging Consultations that Sell Portland Homes"

Hi Julie ~ I'd likely not have noticed it unless you pointed it out LOL!  However, I don't think anyone has the right to change Roman Numerals ... that would be like changing history!  Glad to see you back here, and sending you best wishes for a fantastic 2012 :-)

Jan 01, 2012 05:54 AM
Chris Ann Cleland
Long and Foster Real Estate - Gainesville, VA
Associate Broker, Bristow, VA

Now that you've pointed it out, it will bug me everytime I see an incorrect Roman numeral clock.

Jan 01, 2012 05:57 AM
Debbie Gartner
The Flooring Girl - White Plains, NY
The Flooring Girl & Blog Stylist -Dynamo Marketers

actually check this out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numerals

there are several potential explanations why this is sometimes used in clocks.

Jan 01, 2012 05:59 AM
Joanna Cohlan
Fresh Eyes For Your Home - Chappaqua, NY
Designing, Decorating & Staging Westchester Homes

Julia, happy new year and I'm with you. Why would a roman numeral ever be changed?  That's like changing history.  Thanks for sharing this.

Jan 01, 2012 08:24 AM
Anna Dovger
Add Value Home Staging LLC, 281-704-6607 - The Woodlands, TX
Home Staging -The Woodlands, TX

Julie, I didn't pay attention that IIII is there instead of IV but the last clock shows wrong time. Look the small hand is on about 10:25 and the big hand is still on 10:12. Anyway it is a great discussion and it was really interesting to check Debbie's #12 link. I hope you enjoyed the first day of the MMXII !

Jan 01, 2012 10:52 AM
Cindy Bryant
Redesign Etc. Home Staging - Houston, TX
"Houston Home Staging Pros"

Now I have to check, yep, I have one that has IIII.  I guess according to #12 there's not a standard for Roman numerals, but a great catch. Great, now I'll be checking out numerals everywhere I go...Thanks Julia!!  LOL

Jan 01, 2012 01:58 PM
Kathy Burke
Sensational Home Staging~~Danville, CA - Danville, CA
S.F. East Bay Home Staging

Julie.....glad you caught it!  I don't think I would have unless it was hanging in my house and it was about 4:00ish!  I've never seen 4 expressed in roman numerials as IIII.....new one on me!!  And it just seems wrong!

Jan 01, 2012 04:48 PM
Janet Jones
Just Your Style Interiors, LLC - Kihei, HI
Home Staging, Interior Redesign Kihei, Maui, Hawaii

Hi Julie--now how bizarre is that.  How can someone change a system that hasn't been used in hundreds of years.  But, I would not have noticed it if you had not pointed it out.  Now I have to go check on a clock that I suggested a client purchase a few months back.  I am really going to be irked if it has "IIII" and not "IV".  Happy New Year. 

Jan 01, 2012 05:36 PM
Julia Maher
Nestings: Connecticut Home Staging and Model Homes - Fairfield, CT
Connecticut Home Stager

Ginger:  Enough said!

Debbie & Maureen:  I believe it's simply an error, made by one or more designers and manufacturers.

Chris Ann:  Welcome to my world!

 

Jan 02, 2012 02:04 AM
Julia Maher
Nestings: Connecticut Home Staging and Model Homes - Fairfield, CT
Connecticut Home Stager

Debbie:  Thanks for relieving me of this rant!!!  AND I learned something new!  I edited the post to include the info you thoughtfully directed me to! 

Everyone:  If you look at the addition to my post from Wikipedia, you'll see there are historic precedents for IIII on clocks!  Fascinating read, and now I can relax about this non-issue!  LOL!

Does anyone want to hear about my next rant?  Mis-pronouncing "height"?

Jan 02, 2012 02:15 AM
Sharon Tara
Sharon Tara Transformations - Portsmouth, NH
Retired New Hampshire Home Stager

I guess I've learned something new today, thanks to you and Debbie!  I didn't notice and I'm not sure I ever would have noticed otherwise.

Jan 02, 2012 08:47 AM
Maureen Bray Portland OR Home Stager ~ Room Solutions Staging
Room Solutions Staging, Portland OR - Portland, OR
"Staging Consultations that Sell Portland Homes"

Julie ~ I had to pop back again ... today I was organizing some of my art used for staging, and I knew I had that first clock.  I found it in my art rack and immediately went to check to see which Roman numeral was used for "4."  Although my clock is an EXACT duplicate of your first photo, including the distressed finish  ... it has the "IV" and not the IIII.  So, I guess they made it both ways, depending on the manufacturer!

Jan 02, 2012 12:21 PM
Julia Maher
Nestings: Connecticut Home Staging and Model Homes - Fairfield, CT
Connecticut Home Stager

Valerie - I love being corrected!  I'll email you re:  "height"!  I did some research on that one too!

Feb 06, 2012 06:45 AM
Sharon Parisi
United Real Estate Dallas - Dallas, TX
Dallas Homes

I will remember this post, if I should ever see IIII used in place of IV.  I have definitely learned something from this post.

Apr 14, 2012 06:51 AM