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I Find That One Electrical Problem Leads To Others - It Did Here

By
Home Inspector with Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC 3380-000723

Whenever I read or hear that there has been substantial remodeling done on a home, I find that one electrical problem leads to others - it did here.

Often it has been done by a homeowner.
Often it has been done without a permit.
Often it has been done by a contractor who is not an electrician.
Often it has been done incorrectly.
Often it is obviously incorrect.
Often it is dangerous, and the people living in the house don't even know.

WHILE IGNORANCE MAY BE BLISS, IT CAN BE DANGEROUS!

I found the sub panel first. 

Predicting the most common problem, where the white (neutral) lines and ground lines are combined on the same bus, it turned out to be true.

People think I'm a genius when that happens.

Not really - it is, as I say, the most common problem.

And a big indicator that no electrician worked on this sub panel.

Sub panels are different than main panel boxes and the grounds and neutrals should be separated. 

There was another bus in this box, left totally alone.

But this is what got my attention!

Scorching is not good!

This is the main shut off for the sub panel.

It is a 100amp breaker, probably big enough for a newly-finished basement and the other things in the box.

There can be many reasons for it being hot.

But improper wiring is the likely reason.

I did find low voltage (less than 60volts) in lots of the house.  And a huge voltage drop.

That could be a neutral problem.

The neutral is the white wires that makes the system alternating - it carries electricity back.

And looking in the main panel box I was not surprised.

Let's see, that's the neutral connection!

The bare wire is the original ground line to the panel box.

The copper wire is the new neutral for the sub panel.

We have a galvanic problem where the aluminum and copper are connected inappropriately and can cause deterioration through oxidation.

We have two cables composed of many smaller cables.

The original was twisted, necessarily, to provide the best connection.

The new copper has not been twisted.

So it is loose.

And this tapping together is not good, and also not allowed.

Sending these photos to an electrician friend (I was asking about it's probably being the source of the voltage drop and low voltage) he said,

"Yes it could be the problem because copper/aluminum under the same lug could cause it to be a loose connection which could heat up your other connections and cause lower voltage."

So, there you go!

My recommendation:  when you see remodeling has been done, ask about permits that have been both pulled and closed.  A closed permit is one that says the local jurisdiction as been by and approved all the work.  They would have caught this problem early one, before any scorching and possibility of danger.  And the permit requires that this would all have been done by an electrician, not a neighbor, homeowner or contractor who is not electrically licensed.

 

 

Posted by

Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC  

Based in Bristow, serving all of Northern Virginia.

Office (703) 330-6388   Cell (703) 585-7560

www.jaymarinspect.com


Comments(46)

Suzanne Otto
Six Twenty Designs - Lansdale, PA
Your Montgomery County PA home stager

I can't believe people would do this kind of work/upgrades without the proper knowledge to do so!

Nov 20, 2013 03:57 AM
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

I knew that would be true Jim!  He says, with the same wink you sent.  It was probably better to add it anyway, and not add a lot to the post.

Bill - I was kind of done with this one, as so many of the problems have appeared in other posts (regarding OTHER properties!).  The lights flickering all around the house would have made Mr. Morse proud!

It isn't worth the risk Aaron, and really dangerous.

Glad you stopped by Drick, and enjoyed it.

Richie - I am not sure what people think they will get away from by not having something properly done, including permits.

Nov 20, 2013 05:26 AM
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

Tom A. - they key word is "improvements!"  They were not!

Tom W. - that's what I said to the buyers!

Clint - it was.  There was so much flickering Mr. Morse would be proud.  For all I know this house was sending messages to the Russian satellite above.

While not shocked Jeff, I did find the problems to be electrifying.

Don - this guy gets around more than in any other trade.  Sea to shining sea.

Nov 20, 2013 05:30 AM
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

Connie - and all to save a buck!  If the house burns down and the claim is denied, I am not sure there was a savings.  I will think about that ...     ;>)

Bob - you're welcome.  Stop by again!

Tom - many people do!  Make sure your smoke detectors are viable and have good back up batteries!

Bill - if it's not one thing, it's another.  Double taps are the most common thing out there it seems!

AJ - the realtors around here have county apps they can go to.

Nov 20, 2013 05:33 AM
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

Jeffrey - not surprising - we have a lot on our island of Virginia.

Charlie - the theme thing is very true.  And on new construction, if I find a mistake in one house, it is usually present in all the others!

Kat - that is the first day of the first class in electricity!

Suzanne - well believe it because it's so very common!

Nov 20, 2013 05:35 AM
Paul Miner
Affinity Inspection Group "For The Discerning Client" - Salt Lake City, UT

In many cases homeowners have a friend, who knows a guy, that has a cousin, who used to be an electrician. He can save them hundreds of dollars. These situations are tempting to the homeowners, trying to save a little money. Check with the local Authority Having Jursdication (AHJ) to see what work requires a permits & inspections!

Nov 20, 2013 06:31 AM
Robert Rauf
CMG Home Loans - Toms River, NJ

A few flames in the electrial box, no problem!!  the mix of black and white is pretty scary, especially for the ususpecting person working in the house thinking they shut off the circuit... ZAP!

Nov 20, 2013 06:32 AM
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

That's it in a nutshell Paul.  I see so many "remodels," and those are the first questions.  Here the realtors have apps to see what has permits and what does not.

Mix and match Robert!  Isn't that what we're told?   ;>)

Nov 20, 2013 06:45 AM
Ralph Gorgoglione
Metro Life Homes - Palm Springs, CA
California and Hawaii Real Estate (310) 497-9407

Jay, that's so scary. I can't understand how people can feel safe at night not knowing if the electrical is going to cause their home to catch on fire.

 

Nov 20, 2013 08:10 AM
Barbara Altieri
Better Homes and Gardens RE Shore and Country Properties - Shelton, CT
REALTOR-Fairfield County CT Homes/Condos For Sale

Jay -- No permits and scorching?  Recipe for disaster.

Nov 20, 2013 10:23 AM
Jane Chaulklin-Schott
TEAMCONNECT REALTY - (407) 394-9766 - Orlando, FL
TeamConnect Luxury Homes - Orlando, Florida, 32836
Jay, the electrical is certainly one main area that is meant to be taken very serious. It could mean your life and the lives of others. Too scary to play around with or to cut corners in order to try to save a few bucks.
Nov 20, 2013 12:29 PM
David Shamansky
US Mortgages - David Shamansky - Highlands Ranch, CO
Creative, Aggressive & 560 FICO - OK, Colorado Mtg

Oh nothing to worry about there huh?

Nothing that a REALLY good insurance policy couldnt resolve when that bad boy melts down!!!

Nov 20, 2013 12:54 PM
Gerard Gilbers
Higher Authority Markeing - Asheboro, NC
Your Marketing Master

Electrical issues scare me! The other side effect is that their electric bill probably went up due to the problems but were probably dismissed due to the additional outlets, etc being added.

Nov 20, 2013 02:01 PM
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

Ralph - except for the most basic of stuff, I always hire an electrician, and I can probably do everything I have ever hired one for.  Most recently I hired one to replace the photo eye in my front yard that turns my light on and off.  That's pretty basic, but still.

It is Barbara.  Mix in a little water and stir.

Jane - it is the "saving" part that gets to me.  What if, is what I always think, what if.

David - they would determine that all that was done without a permit and deny the claim.

Gerard - hard to know what happened to the bill, but you're right, if it did they may have dismissed it.

Nov 20, 2013 04:55 PM
Mike Cooper, Broker VA,WV
Cornerstone Business Group Inc - Winchester, VA
Your Neighborhood Real Estate Sales Pro

Jay, we do run across this all the time. It's a good sign that the homeowner or a jack-leg did the work. Was there inhibitor cream on the mains on that box? They look pretty dry in the photo. That would also cause the scorching over time. 

Nov 20, 2013 10:08 PM
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

Mike - I call that jelly to my clients!  And nope, no jelly!

Nov 21, 2013 01:53 AM
Jimmy Faulkner
Florida. Homes Realty & Mortgage - Wantagh, NY
The Best Of St. Augustine

Electirical problems are usually involved inevery home inspection and the electrical work is usually done wrong and not to code. It makes people think of FIRE!  Not Good.

Nov 21, 2013 04:30 AM
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

Jimmy - this scorch is certainly the first step toward a fire!

Nov 21, 2013 06:21 AM
Eric Middleton
Closer Look Property Inspections Inc. - Uniondale, NY
Professional Property Inspector

Jay - the newly renovated or remodeled homes are always the ones that I proceed with extreme caution.

Nov 22, 2013 11:20 AM
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

Fer sher Eric.  The current state is one that lacks professionalism.  And my sarcastic words are "7-11 construction..."

Nov 22, 2013 06:05 PM