The GOP Rejects the Auto Bailout

Noqui.

Excellent points in your post. Always an honor and pleasure to read what you have to share with us.

Rob, Revenge? Obviously by your comment you are not aware it was a Republican filibuster that caused the bailout to fail.

As to Unions, yes, they are great for the members but a disaster for the common laborer. Union members getting $78.00 an hour is Absurd. Level the playing "pay" field to $38.00 across the board, even for top management and eliminate ALL Bonus's, build economical, gas saving, SAFE vehicles and maybe they could dig their way out of this mess.

But alas, such a thing happening in CORPORATE America is fantasy!

The actual pay of a union member is around $30 an hour$1200 a week or barely enough to support a family. The other $48 an hour goes to benefits and legacy costs. I know of construction unions in NYC that would laugh at a cost of only $78 an hour to keep the job going. This is not the problem. The problem is an inferior product and pathetic foresight by their management.  The problem with the bailout is that it doesn't help anything. They need to get into bankruptcy court and make the tough decisions. I have been against every bailout and will continue to be. A capitalistic society in which failure is not an option can not survive.

Noqui - I have read several comments Hugh (and I second the comments) has said he did and does not support the $ 700 billion bailout.  A company going into bankruptcy does not the collapse of the company. What it means is the company can restructure itself into competitor again. 

Noqui,

I am a conservative and I do not agree with the $700 Billion or any other bail outs.  Can't say I agree with your reasons much.  I think either side could have similar arguments most of the time.

I see that you got people stirred up with this one. ::smiling:: A good debate is always interesting reading...but I feel that I'm late to the table. ~GBU~

Noqui, as we both know filing bankruptsy and restructuring does not ensure the business will survive.  If that is the case then why werent the Wall Street brokerages allowed to file and restructure?  Union busting is the operative word here, bring the workers to their knees, break up their unions.  Remember the air traffic controllers during Reagan?  He could have allowed contract talks to continue, but he saw the opportunity to bust their union, by firing all of them and hiring non-union members.

Hi Noqui,

I also agree, don't bail them out, if they go under, than they might come back as a small, but stronger, more productive and build better automobiles, but definitely don't bail them out.  They have to learn the lesson on capitalism.  Supply & demand make and break companies today!

                              ;>)

Unfortunately the auto industry got their billions so it is a moot point. It was your hero Bush who gave it to them, not congress or anybody else. If they don't have a feasible reorganization plan in place by March they'll have to pay the 'loan' back. Ahhhahahaha. They'll be BK by March - go fish for your repayment. The salient point, which I certainly don't expect you to grasp, is that this is not a GOP finger to the working class but a plea for sanity. Even managers in the auto industry know the only way they can regain their competitive edge is to eliminate the legacy costs, reduce overhead and be able to produce a competitive quality product at a competitive price. The bail-out will not allow them to accomplish that whereas a structured or 'soft' BK, as Bush was talking about just yesterday would allow them to regain some measure of control over their own industry. If they can't get competitive, they need to go the way of other dinosaurs. They had the industry locked up until the got so bloated and unresponsive.

Hugh wrote:  The problem is an inferior product and pathetic foresight by their management.  The problem with the bailout is that it doesn't help anything. They need to get into bankruptcy court and make the tough decisions

I'm with Hugh on this one.  I said it once a few weeks ago:  our cars are not very good.  The only American cars I would care to drive are the Corvette and Jeep (maybe a Caddy too).  My girlfriend has a Wrangler and it's fun.  Other than that, the rest is trash.  No one in my immediate family has owned an American car since the mid-70s.  You can cut the union and give free healthcare, but if the product remains inferior to what I can get elsewhere I still won't buy from Detroit.  Period.  It is time to make the tough decisions. 

Tchaka,

Do you ever remember seeing the bumper stickers that said "If we continue to buy imports, where will our children work?", or something like that?  Well, it is coming true!

John - our children will work in new industries with new products and services. For better or worse we are becoming a nation of service industries as our manufacturing continues to migrate off-shore to places that will do better work for less money. The unions, whether it's the auto workers, teachers, prison guards or whatever, are only into self-perpetuation at this point - their members be damned. My father was a miner. I don't work in the same industry he did and I suspect my son will make bhis own way as well.

Tchaka - right on the money. I've driven my share of Chryslers, Chevy's, Dodge's, Fords, Lincolns, etc. It seems like every new model is made with cheaper parts, more plastic, fake chrome, electronics that fizzle, adjusting seats that don't. A sad commentary. I've still got a '71 Plymouth Duster, a '60 Jeep and a '29 Buick. Now there was some Detroit Iron, Baby. And they still run great. Today I drive an Infiniti, my wife a Honda and my kids drive a Nissan & a Toyota. I'll pay more for a quality product - but Detroit doesn't understand. It is time to make the tough decisions or they'll be nothing but another memory like American made television, cameras, etc.

Nogui I hope your hatred for the GOP extends only to the political party and not to it's supporters. Because of the GOP you and I and every other person of color can vote, can ride anywhere on a bus we like, can marry and divorce as many white women as we like (as long as they are not at the same time) and yes even hold political office. Do a little research on the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and see which party broke the Democrat filibuster of that act!

You are correct, this is class war fare but you have it all wrong. You see I spent 7 of the past 8 years in Michigan reviewing tax records, pay stubs and W2's and I speak with authority when I tell you that the average UAW auto worker who is unskilled (meaning they are good candidates for Burger King jobs) earned $130,000 in gross wages ain 2005, that is not middle class in Flint or Pontiac Michigan by ANYONES standards.

The main distinction between Democrats and Republicans is this; Dem's will have you believe you cant be a success without government and Republicans belive too much government intervention leads to failure.

Nogui - Did you not know that the GOP was behind Rosa Parks' decision not to move to the back of the bus?  And secret White House records will show that the GOP held JFK at gunpoint one night and insisted that he introduce the Civil Rights Act.  Without them, we'd still be living in the stone ages.

Anyone who knows anything about the Civil Rights Act knows that Humphrey (non-Republican) mobilized non-Southern Dems against this filibuster along with Republicans and that the legislation to end the filibuster was a joint Dem-Rep move.  

I spent 7 of the past 8 years in Michigan reviewing tax records, pay stubs and W2's and I speak with authority when I tell you that the average UAW auto worker who is unskilled (meaning they are good candidates for Burger King jobs) earned $130,000 in gross wages ain 2005

Hahahahaha.....yeah, right!  At $28/hr. one would have to work nearly 90 hours per week.  If someone works that much, they deserve $130k.

Noqui - I am not sure what you meant by what I am smoking because the number don't lie. Bills get introduced nearly every day in congress but because of our unique brand of government in the United States it is very difficult to become law. This is because our founding fathers wanted to make sure the process into law would require thought and debate. You should look a bit closer at the vote because down party lines the GOP supported the CRA more than 80% to less than 70% for Democrats. Don't forget it was the GOP which broke the filibuster than would have buried the bill in committe when after 54 days of filibuster, Senators Everett Dirksen (R-IL), Thomas Kuchel (R-CA), Hubert Humphrey (D-MN), and Mike Mansfield (D-MT) introduced a substitute bill that they hoped would attract enough Republican votes to end the filibuste which we know did.

Vote totals Totals are in "Yea-Nay" format:

* The original House version: 290-130 (69%-31%)
* The Senate version: 73-27 (73%-27%)
* The Senate version, as voted on by the House: 289-126 (70%-30%)

By party

The original House version:

* Democratic Party: 152-96 (61%-39%)
* Republican Party: 138-34 (80%-20%)

The Senate version:

* Democratic Party: 46-21 (69%-31%)
* Republican Party: 27-6 (82%-18%)

The Senate version, voted on by the House:

* Democratic Party: 153-91 (63%-37%)
* Republican Party: 136-35 (80%-20%)

Here is  some recommended reading from the National Black Republicans Association "...It should come as no surprise that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a Republican. In that era, almost all black Americans were Republicans. Why? From its founding in 1854 as the anti-slavery party until today, the Republican Party has championed freedom and civil rights for blacks. And as one pundit so succinctly stated, the Democrat Party is as it always has been, the party of the four S's: Slavery, Secession, Segregation and now Socialism."

Tchaka - there you go again running your mouth about things you know only talking points on or what you can copy and paste from Wiki. Take for example Delphi employees in Flint Michigan earned $30 before the bankruptcy judge in 2006 set the UAW labor contracts aside and slashed their pay to $15 per hour! Delphi is a wholly owned subsidiary of GM that makes electronic components for GM products they don't even make cars, they are the final assembly point of most of products they sell to GM...think about that for  a moment...the final assembly point....$30 per hour....that is more than $60,000 per year to put together the final product that has been made elsewhere by others who have been paid too. Let me put that into perspective; My wife is a Doctor of Physical Therapy that means she has 8 years of higher education and training and she earns little more than that.

GM hourly employees earn on average $80,000 per year sans overtime. in 2005 GM was the single largest purchase of health care in the WORLD spending $5 BILLION on health care and only $1 BILLION on Research and Development, you know trying to figure out what cars you and I would like to drive. Spin it any way you like but your $28 per hour is wrong because that is what GoodYear UAW workers earn for new hires!

Here is a link to a website that tracks non UAW wages at GM - you will see that professionals earn on average less than so called workers because they are non union and according to Media Matters; "GM recently has reportedly pointed out that the figure representing the hourly cost of labor to U.S. automakers -- a cost that GM reportedly puts at $69 -- includes not only current workers' hourly wages and benefits, such as health care and retirement, but also retirement and health-care benefits that U.S. automakers are providing for current retirees, as Media Matters has noted. Despite the automakers' acknowledgement, the media continue to repeat the $70 or more per hour myth."

Now I know you will say "But Ricardo the $69 dollars per hour also pays retiree benefits" and to that I will respond; Does it really matter? Do you really think those who are working at GM are going to give up those benefits they have been promised? Of course not, why do you think they were on strike at GoodYear last year and GM? It wasn't over wages for "workers" it was over wages for not yet employed new hires...that's right people who haven't even been hired yet! Why you ask would they strike over brothers and sisters who haven't even been hired yet? Simple; unions collect dues based upon numbers of hours i.e.; if you are employed by a Union plant in Michgan, first you have no other choice but to join the Union and second the Union gets to keep two of your wage hours a month...not a fixed rate so each year the costs of your dues increase and you have no say about it.