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72 Comments on Smoking on Balconies - A Dilemma for Condo Owners
Stewart, yes, new buyers, if they don't accept the CC&R's always have the option of not buying. But the issue that will have to be faced is between the current owners who purchased under the current CC&R's and currently reside in the building. What rights do the majority of the smokers, those who are considerate of their neighbors have in your association and under California law?
Personally I hate the smell of smoke...but on the other hand if you ban the smoke on balconies you probably have to ban them from smoking inside too... because the smoke inside from a heavy smoker will go thru the walls and ducts and hang in the building hallways and everything else... this way you are making the health hazards worse for everybody in the building.
For those who bought the condos before you change the law shouldn't they be grandfathered in and have the new owners be all non smokers and eventually you will either have all non smokers or empty units...supply and demand...let the market dictate.
I hate smoking and I used to smoke long ago...it is a horrible habit and the smell is worse since the government made them change the cigarettes to quit burning if not being puffed on..They stink more than ever...but I also hate rules and regulations on people living in their own homes.
In ALaska we have the right to privacy and our home is our castle... that is another reason I live here!
Good Luck with the open forum! and very good post to get us all thinking
Stewart, I think people should be able to do whatever they like inside their home as long as it is legal and not intrusive to a neighbor. If the ventillation system allows for smoke to travel then, perhaps, they might need to control smoking in the unit. Aren't there fan ashtrays that suck in the smoke so it doesn't go all around? It would seem a smoker would want to minimize the controversy as they engage their habit. It is amazing how often people smoke outside their homes now, and how it smells as one approaches the front door, garage, or wherever they are inclined to spend their smoking time. I never thought I'd see smoking banned from casinos here in Nevada, but many are going that way. The times they are a changin. Good luck with your HOA meeting - it will be interesting to see how things go.
Stewart,
Just so I understand this correctly, people can BBQ whatever on their grill with all kinds of odors and smoke and the complaint is a little cigarette smoke? I think correctness has gone too far. I smoke a pipe and there's no way I'm giving that last pleasure up for anyone. Besides, what do you do after sex? Chew mints?
Stewart,
In my building the balconies/patios are limited common elements so are the parking spaces, they are not common areas. I call the balconies smoking rooms that is what people use them for, In Colorado the bars have no smoking but the patios are full even in the winter with portable heaters for the smokers. Actually I feel they should have a nice seating area at Hotels and Restaurants for smokers, I just noticed that they do at the JW Marriott in Cherry Creek.
I was just on a road trip and in the Rest Stops in IOWA Smoking was only allowed in you Car not Outside. (Iowa seems to be a head of the country in a lot of ways)
Very interesting issue. There is plenty of case law out there that supports smoking bans both inside and outside. But be careful, you may lose your buyer to a "smoking" building down the street.
Stewart....have not looked for the updated blog, but I will post a comment here.
When we condo dwellers sign on, we hardly every REALLY read the condo docs for which we can be held accountable to for many, many things we never dreamed that someone could "rule" on.
While the balconies ARE a limited common element, I think it's going a bit far to say you can't smoke on your balcony. That said, a chain-type smoker who's smoke bothers someone else, well perhaps there is some neighborly thing that can be done to resolve the issue. Oh, wait...we are talking condo living...neighborly...same sentence...hmmmm....
Our issue lies not with the smoke, but the butts....and butts and butts....we have units on lower floors tha that have huge terraces that are littered with butts from the balconies above....people smoke and rather than use an ash tray (which is one really foul smelling thing) they pitch them over the balcony.
2 years ago we had two fires started in the tress on the building from this very thing! Can we say STUPID!
I don't like cig smoke at all, but I'd hate to be so limited as to not be able to smoke on my balcony as well.
The laws are just as strict, if not more so, in Hawaii. There's hardly a place that people can smoke in public. Since I'm a non-smoker, of course, that's great. However, my partner smokes and since smoking is not allowed in our home, it can be tough. Perhaps it's time to quit smoking !! ; )
A condo legally, is not a single family home, and the individual rights of a condo owner simply do not exist as with a single family home. If someone wants to use their property as, and have the rights of a single family home owner, I suggest they purchase a single family home.
Here's an excerpt from our CC&R’s circa 1989, Washington State)
“11.10 Offensive Activity - No noxious or offensive activity shall be carried on in an apartment or common area, nor shall anything be done therein which may be or become an annoyance or nuisance to other owners."
Your issue has nothing to do with an individual’s right (to smoke or anything else). It has everything to do with the necessary and normal enjoyment of your property, that clearly trumps the unnecessary (offensive, annoying, or nuisance) activities of any individual. CC&R’s are to be interpreted liberally and always protect the property and the normal enjoyment of the property, rather than any individual behavior. You can’t Blair your stereo (noise pollution), you can’t shine bright lights in someone’s window (light pollution), and you can’t pollute the air that all are forced to share. All of these have been and are considered forms of trespassing.
Other than the interior airspace within the unfinished walls, ceiling and floor of your apartment legally defined as your property, all else is common area, even the dry wall itself is usually considered common area (for its sound and fire control properties), and certainly the airspace within the common or structural walls and floors which the smoke is seeping through is common area. Limited common areas are fractionally owned exactly as any other common area, with the legal distinction that that area is reserved exclusively for the use of an individual unit. You all own a fraction of the balcony or parking stall or area, or wall cavity, or floor cavity, that the smoke is coming from or is getting through, and any owner has the right to limit any activity within any unit, if it can be shown to be an annoyance or nuisance. Any individual right to any activity within your unit ends when the effect of that activity protrudes beyond your unfinished walls, floors or ceilings. Again, these are not freestanding single family residences and can not be consider to be.
I hope my analysis helps everyone better understand the unique situation that is a Condominium Association.
--Bill--
Bill Zimmerman, President
Horizon View Condominiums
Homeowners' Association
Great topic. This is a common complaint among unit owners of the condos we manage ... I have one who complains about her neighbors who smoke outside her unit - and her husband is a smoker. She mekes him smoke outside and do the very same thing to their neighbors. Some people just shouldn't live in condos.
Stewart, Haven't seen the update on the meeting so I'll leave an additional thought that I saw in the news today. With the rise of obesity in America, several states & Congress are planning to place a surcharge tax up to 4% on all foods that use at least 1 oz of surgar in the preparation of food products, not limited to bread, milk, microwave dishes, yogurt, jello, bacon, & other prepackaged foods and they are also looking at controlling alcoholism by charging a surcharge on all products that contain 1% alcohol/volume (most liquid medicines/cough syrups contain this). They had such great results in lowering the number of tobacco products sold that it should work on other health issues that are the result of personal habits & environmental/social issues. I figure that this would come about & since decrease of cigarette sales through taxation worked; the government is looking at other ways to ensure we all have a healthy lifestyle.
Wow, What a great discussion. What about workers who are doing renovations? Many of them smoke and in Florida the work has to be done in summer when owners are not here. And friends who come for dinner and are smokers. I am a former smoker (like a lot of us) and are told they cannot smoke. I am all for cutting back but I just don't think I want some of the condo associations to run wild!
Regarding the comment about the Condo Association running the world...
You must remember that is your condo association is a non profit corporation. Yes you are all part owners of a corporation and have no individual rights to do anything that would reduce the use or benefit or value of someone else’s share in that corporation (in this case their apartment and common area).
The fact that you used to smoke or that many people in your area do or tolerate smoking doesn’t change this fact.
That, that is beneficial to all has to be protected as indicated in this excerpt from our CC&Rs (Washington State Circa 1989)
"By acceptance of a ...contract for sale, ...or any privileges of use or enjoyment, respecting the property or any apartment..., it is agreed that this Declaration, ...effecting a common plan for the condominium development mutually beneficial to all of the described apartments, ...are binding upon the entire property and upon each such apartment as a parcel of realty, and upon its owners..."
I don’t see anything there or anywhere in our 60+ page CC&R's that guarantees an individuals right to smoke, or another behavior not directly required for the normal use of the property. Smoking simply is not beneficial to all, and can be argued as unnecessary.
Another excerpt relating to "Use of the apartment"
"The buildings and apartments shall be used, for single family residential purposes only, on an ownership, rental or lease basis; and for the common social, recreational or other reasonable uses normally incident to such purposes, and for purposes of operating the Association and managing the condominium."
The question is, while smoking is certainly common and recreational, is it reasonable and having a purpose that is mutually beneficial to all? Any nonsmoker would say no and even a few smokers I’m sure would agree.
Regarding the behavior of friends or guests, they are clearly the responsibility of the owner as specified in your CC&R's.
And the behavior of contractors would be the responsibility of the owner or association depending on whos' behalf the work is being done (common area or owner responsibility items).
I must reiterate regarding this subject, if you want the freedoms that come with a standalone single-family residence and do not want your condo association running your world, I suggest you purchase a standalone single-family residence, which you alone will own and control.
--Bill--
Bill Zimmerman, President
Horizon View Condominiums
Homeowners' Association
Hi Stewart,
At the risk of perhaps oversimplifying this issue, surely if someone's cigarette smoke is bothering other people then it shouldn't be allowed!
California has certainly lead the way in banning smoking and I'm sure will be the first state to ban it completely. That can only be a good thing!
Steve
This is very much a problem that we also have here along the NC coast.
Smoking is invasive. Anyone remember the "cone of Silence"? I recommend the "Cone of Smokers". People should be free to smoke, but not to pollute the air that others breathe. The pendulum is swinging, but not fast enough for the non-smokers.
Stewart, In San Luis Obispo it is illegal to smoke in ALL public areas and condos and appartments are fair game if the smoke affects other people. I actually have a blog on the subject here http://activerain.com/blogsview/1661053/california-city-makes-it-easier-to-kick-tobacco-use
I am in favor of people being free to do what they choose, but smoke travels and is a known harmful element. I say off the decks and patios.
Remember the "cone of silence" from Get Smart? These should be used for smokers who insist on permeating the air of others.
WE have not gotten to this point in NC yet. But I feel it is coming.
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