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Your Mortgage Broker Suggested What?

By
Real Estate Agent with 405home @ ERA Courtyard 148333

Today was a day like any other Monday (or Tuesday after a holiday) in the world of Edmond Real Estate. I spent the majority of it catching up from the weekend and following up with various clients to set a plan for my week, as well as tying up loose ends on my ongoing transactions and tracking down the daily FSBOs and Expireds.

Some time early in the afternoon though, I made a call to a client and friend of mine that's looking into buying a fixer. We had gone out over the weekend and looked at a home that he and his wife are quite interested in. I won't go into all the details, but basically, it's a very nice piece of property that needs quite a bit of updating to really be the home they want to raise their kids in, so of course the discussion has come around to the possiblity of buying well below value and borrowing against any equity to fund the desired upgrades. The buying below value doesn't seem to be a big obstacle, and I had advised him to call "his mortgage guy" today to find out if they had any programs available that might allow them to get the project money they want. Long story short, the  mortgage guy tells my friend, we'll call him Mr D, that there's no way he can get them into any such program that wouldn't cost him an arm and a leg in interest. He then goes on to suggest to Mr D that, even though there are some legal issues involved, he may want to see if the seller would agree to a higher list price, then give Mr D back some cash after closing, in an agreement outside of the purchase contract of course. Can anyone say RED FLAG?

Here in Edmond, we recently had a MEGA-Agent (one of the largest names in our local market) locked up for this very thing. She, the appraiser, the buyers and the sellers are all in deep doo-doo after being caught running a cash-back scheme which defrauded the lenders and drove up property values in Edmond's prestigious Oak Tree addition. The agent is currently serving time in federal lock-up and has lost her license forever. I'm pretty sure the appraiser and the sellers are also serving time.

With this case being so fresh in our heads, it's mind-boggling to me that anyone in the Edmond real estate market would even consider this as an option, much less actually suggest it to a client. Normally, I'd lean toward giving the benefit of the doubt and wonder if this guy just didn't know what he was actually suggesting, but he directly verbalized to Mr D that there would be "some legal issues involved," as if that somehow clears him of any wrongdoing if Mr D actually goes through with it. What if Mr D and the seller had shady (or just ignorant) agents representing them? Could they not find themselves in a major predicament down the line, simply because they were misinformed (or uninformed)? The shady and/or ignorant agents certainly would.

 After explaining the ins & outs of this scenario to Mr D, and that I would never be a part of such a transaction, it was clear that he truly didn't realize it was such a big deal, which furthers the possibility of being misled and unknowingly getting into a sticky situation had he been unrepresented, or simply represented by a less-ethical agent. At that point, he made it clear that he's not any more interested in orange jumpsuits than I am.

This whole series of events raises a few issues and questions for me.

  • First, it further validates the reasons a home buyer should never go it alone. No matter how intelligent and savvy (Mr D and his wife are both) you, the buyer are, assuming you know all the ins & outs is just plain foolish. Find an ethical, honest, experienced professional to protect you from such pitfalls. We even have insurance to cover ourselves, but the best part is, it doesn't cost you anything to be represented. The seller pays that commission.
  • Secondly, it obviously gives me a heads-up about this particular mortgage broker. I can assure you that I will never be a part of any transaction with this clown. But more importantly, it raises the question of how I should handle this instance. Who holds these guys accountable? I don't want this donkey burying some other unsuspecting consumer with his ludicrous advice. Furthermore, it makes every one of us in this industry look bad. Why do consumers have such a poor opinion of REALTORS and Mortgage Brokers? Very simply, because of scum like this guy. So where do I go from here with the information that he's just a tad crooked?
  • Lastly, it makes me wonder how many agents and mortgage brokers out there don't understand that this IS WRONG! I know I'm in the minority (around here) of those agents who actually read the contracts we sign and keep up with every bit of industry-related news I can get my hands on. I hold my continuing education in very high regard and my ethics even higher! But what about all the agents with a part-time mentality who simply do the minimum it takes to get licensed and only work a dozen or so transactions each year? I can clearly see where it would be easy for such an agent to miss the fact that his practice is FRAUD.

Yep, just another exciting day in the life!

Ryan Hukill
REALTOR® Associate

Hukill Group - Paradigm Realty
16211 N May Ave
Edmond, OK 73013
direct.: (405) 802.HOME
fax: (405) 285.8428
ryanhukill@cox.net
www.YourOpenHouse.us
Visit my Blog
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Comments(49)

Adrian Alvarado
MGR Real Estate Inc. - Ontario, CA
Inland Empire Real Estate

Ryan,

Great post. This kind of stuff happens every day and these agents and loan officers will not be around for long if they are conducting business this way. Now is the time when these type of proffessionals are leaving the business because they do not provide honest ethicall service.

Sep 05, 2007 09:47 AM
Laura Moore Godek
Laura Moore Godek, PC - McHenry, IL
 It is difficult to but your client back on track once they hear from another professional thatgg this type of deal can be done,,, Good luch.
Sep 05, 2007 11:23 AM
Stephen Joos & Chris Brubaker- HouseFront
HouseFront - Denver, CO
Great bullet points at the end of the article, you made some really really great points.
Sep 05, 2007 11:47 AM
Elaine A. Cook
Connect Realty.com - Bellingham, WA
Bellingham Real Estate
I have first time hom buyers who went Seattle to take their certification class.  They called me during a break to thank me for being such an honest agent.  I was taken aback, said thank you..and asked "but why are you saying this?"  Apparently many horror stories were conveyed in this class from students and teachers. Of which they shared a few examples.  I told them to be sure and explain these red flags to as many people as they knew; in hopes of helping to educate more buyers.   These same buyers put an offer in on a home; full price and asking for seller to pay closing.  So they countered with a higher sale price...above what it would of appraised for.  I politely called the "other" agent, and explained the grey area and orange suit he could be wearing if this was his normal mode of operation.  Needless to say, we got the deal at the real full price with seller paying closing...wonder how much of it is coming out of his pocket!!!  More importantly how did he not know???????
Sep 05, 2007 12:29 PM
Ryan Hukill - Edmond
405home @ ERA Courtyard - Edmond, OK
Realtor, Team Lead

Joe - Thanks for the advice!

Ed - You're right, fraud is driving up the already escalating problems in our industry. I'm still working with Mr & Mrs D on getting the house. I'm confident it will all work out to their benefit in the end. Thanks for sharing.

Donna - What a story! It's amazing what people will try to pull isn't it?

Tom - Any help you can give in that regard would be great! My broker and I are discussing what route we want to take. I agree, we need them gone! Thanks for your willingness to help!

Rebecca - I assume you were working for the sellers. Great job of keeping them in the clear. Thanks for sharing!

Rich - I agree 100%. I'm working on my response to this as we speak. Thanks for your input.

Christopher - I'm not sure I want to know the ins & outs of the jumpsuits but I can think of a few people who probably deserve one. Definitely bad for all of us and it's prevelant enough that any agent paying any attention to the industry at all should be fully aware of where the line is. Thanks for stopping by.

Joyce - Great job of thinking outside the box and finding a solution for your clients. They're lucky to have you! Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

Renee - Another twist on the same game. I've seen that one too. It's amazing how many different ways people will try to "skin a cat." I tend to use the "If it's not on the HUD, it ain't happenin" rule on my deals. Thanks for gracing my blog  :)

Christina - It will catch up to them in the end. It's definitely in our best interest to steer clear of any such shady characters. Why would we want to associate our good names with them anyway? Thanks for sharing.

Gurjit - Those that never learn eventually will, the hard way. Thanks for your thoughts.

Roberta - Sorry to hear about your client. I hope he/she isn't one of those unknowing who get caught in something they didn't plan. Thanks for sharing.

JR - It really is amazing isn't it? All for a quick buck? What happened to earning things the right way and coming out ahead in the end? Thanks for stopping by.

Joshua - You're welcome.

Gena - That's what AR is all about. We all learn something new here every day. Thanks for stopping by.

Tom - It's even worse when they know the difference but still choose wrong. Thanks!

Robert - That's another great question. It takes many willing parties to pull one of these off. Thanks for bringing that up.

Unnamed - I fear the same my friend. Thanks for joining in.

Dan - Isn't that the truth. It sure was an eye-opener for me when I saw such a prominent agent in our market get chained up to serve time in her 60s. She was easily bringing home a 7-figure income and lost it all over something so foolish. Thanks for stopping by.

Lane - I'd bet an audit would reveal quite a bit of interesting info on this clown. It really is amazing that anyone could suggest such things knowing the consequences. Thanks for sharing.

Adrian - I hope you're right. We need them all out of the picture. Thanks for your thoughts.

Laura - Fortunately, I'm dealing with a client who's on the up & up and wants no part of anything that's not above board. Thanks for reading.

Stephen - Thank you. Points we should all consider. Thanks for stopping by.

Elaine - Isn't it great when you hear from a client that you've made a difference and helped them? Great job! Thanks for sharing your story!

Sep 05, 2007 02:20 PM
Anonymous
Anonymous
Great post! Its amazing how many idiots are out there. They do the same thing to someone new everyday.
Sep 05, 2007 02:36 PM
#35
Teresa Lyons
Keller Williams Realty - Kirkland, WA
#1 Real Estate Team in Washington State

Great information, hope you posted this for some of the newbies.  I have a deal getting ready to close in a week of so and the builder let the buyer, a licensed, bonded and insured electrical contractor do his own wiring on the home and the seller (builder) will pay him for services rendered at closing.  It had to be very specifically writing for the work. 

I don't quite understand how anyone can get away with that.  doesn't the lender or escrow cut the check to the buyer?  Or are you saying they write something up on the side and keep it on the down low?  Sorry, I guess my mind does not work in a crocked way.

Sep 05, 2007 03:11 PM
Rick & Ines - Miami Beach Real Estate
Majestic Properties - Miami Beach, FL
Ryan - that is absolutely absurd and I will tell you one thing - there is no way I will ever believe an agent or mortgage broker saying that they did not know it was wrong.  Playing ignorance when it deals with mortgage fraud is not acceptable - it's a FELONY, plain and simple.  You should grab the name of the mortgage broker and give the FBI a call to keep him under their radar .....it's people like him that give our industry a bad name.  LOCK HIM UP!
Sep 05, 2007 03:50 PM
Paula Henry
Home to Indy Team @ HomeSmart Realty Group - Avon, IN
Realtor - Indianapolis Real Estate - 317-605-4174
This exact scenario happened to an agent friend of mine in Phoenix. It is a horrible experience and one we need to be aware of. People like this need to be OUT of our industry. I for one, do not look good in orange and will never help someone scam a lender. 
Sep 05, 2007 05:18 PM
Bob & Carolin Benjamin
Benjamin Realty LLC - Gold Canyon, AZ
East Phoenix Arizona Homes

Wow .. there is some new scheme hatched up every day it seems.

Sep 05, 2007 06:48 PM
Michele Van Detti
CJR - Gilbert, AZ

Ryan--

Great post, and you did a great job.  I'm with you--orange is not my color.

Sep 06, 2007 03:47 AM
Ricky Bruni
Keller Williams Realty - Birmingham, AL

Outrageous...I don't know what kind of acquisition cost or cost of improvements you face but the FHA-203K or just about any Construction-Perm will facilitate the transaction (assuming the clients credit file is sound). Talk to a good mortgage broker that is aligned with some smaller local banks. They can trade the construction part and permanent between them. I used to do this all the time when I was lending.

It may be worthwhile to have your broker call the L/O's boss or manager and let them know that one of their associates was promoting fraudulent activity (share the name at your own discretion)

Sep 06, 2007 10:15 AM
Ryan Hukill - Edmond
405home @ ERA Courtyard - Edmond, OK
Realtor, Team Lead

Wow, I didn't realize this post would get so much response, but I'm glad to see that this topic strikes a nerve with my fellow Rainers. It's something that needs to be stamped out!

Unnamed - I hope the idiots you're referring to are the clowns that try to pull this stuff off, not the unknowing consumer. It really is ridiculous! Thanks for stopping by.

Teresa - That sounds like an iffy one to me too. On the deal I mentioned, the mortgage broker was suggesting that the buyer pay more for the house, then have the seller give them the money back after closing, completely outside of the transaction (undisclosed to the lender). My mind doesn't work like that either, but after watching the bit story unfold here over the past couple of years, I've learned to spot these things better.

Rick & Ines - I agree with you 100%, but I can see how a newbie agent might get sucked in if they didn't pay attention to the ins & outs of fraud in the first few classes. I haven't called the FBI, but there are people who know now  ;)

Paula - I'd like to here more about your friend's situation. Was he/she unaware or how did it unfold? I agree, we need them gone TODAY! Thanks for your comment.

Bob & Carolin - unfortunately, I think this one's been around a while but not everyone is aware. Keep an eye out. Thanks for stopping by.

Michele - Thank you. That makes two of us.

Ricky - We've found the answers we needed to the buyer's needs, but the LOs suggestion is what got me all worked up. My Broker is taking the necessary steps as we speak. Thanks for coming by.

Sep 06, 2007 05:05 PM
Paul Box
Drake Homes LLC - Oklahoma City, OK

Ryan,

As a builder in the OKC area I have ran across this scenario several times in the past years.

My comment to these people is that " sorry I don't look good in orange, being I'm a sooner", even then they just don't seem to get the message. 

Sep 07, 2007 01:19 PM
Ryan Hukill - Edmond
405home @ ERA Courtyard - Edmond, OK
Realtor, Team Lead
Paul - Glad to see a fellow Sooner here. We'd look especially bad in orange, wouldn't we? I'm surprised our paths haven't crossed. Where are you building?
Sep 07, 2007 02:15 PM
Joanne Hanson
Coldwell Banker Colorado Rockies Real Estate - Frisco, CO
Summit County, Colorado Realtor

Ryan, I had someone try to do that a year or two ago.  They wanted to write a contract, and then do an amendment adjusting the price upward by about $40,000 and giving cash back.  I refused and said that if they wanted to do that it would have to be in the body of he contract and the lender would have to agree to it.  (I knew that the contract would get to the lender, but the amendment wouldn't.)

He actually agreed to do it in the body of the contract, and we were pending for about a day until the lender saw the contract,  and that took care of that.  I had told the Seller, who didn't want to turn down the offer, than it wouldn't fly, so he was prepared for it. 

I dont' look good in orange, or in stripes, either!

Sep 07, 2007 05:50 PM
Paul Box
Drake Homes LLC - Oklahoma City, OK

Ryan,

I basically build in the greater OKC area from Guthrie to Noble and Yukon to Newalla. Currently only building customs one in Cimarron City, two in Newalla, working on a contract in Norman. Many miles as you can see. I haven't built any specs for a year or so due to the current market, although I am working on a couple of my most popular plans to place in some prime areas. If you have any suggestions on locations I'll love to hear from yuh!!!!!

 BOOMER SOONER!!!!

[P]

Drake Homes  

Sep 11, 2007 04:20 AM
Ryan Hukill - Edmond
405home @ ERA Courtyard - Edmond, OK
Realtor, Team Lead

Joanne, great job of showing them who's educated AND on the up & up. Thanks for sharing.

Paul - Smart of you to slow down on the specs. Many builders out there in trouble now because they didn't listen to what I had to say about that. I'll keep my eye out for some locations. What size range do you build?

Sep 19, 2007 10:20 AM
Anonymous
PHIL SMITH - EVANS MORTGAGE - EDMOND OK

The agency that regulates us in Oklahoma is the Department of Consumer Credit, 4545 North Lincoln Boulevard, Suite 104 OKC, OK 73105-3408 Phone: (405) 521-3653.  The only way to stop these people is to let the DOCC know what's going on.  It's clearly illegal and gives us all a bad name.  It amazes me that some companies can engage in this kind of behavior and stay in business.  The regulations are there, they just need to be enforced.  The only way they can be is if the regulating agency knows what is going on. 

Evans Mortgage has been able to help qualified buyers in this kind of situation by using an interim (construction) loan through local banks, financing the purchase price based upon the future (improved) value after updates and repairs.  Once the repairs/updates are done, we can get a conventional loan.  This works for qualified buyers getting a good deal on the house.  They will have to be able to verify the cost of the work (repairs/updates) done, especially if the increase in value is over 15%.  But even then, if the property was clearly bought below market value, and the value after improvements is proveable, it can be done. 

Thanks.    

Sep 20, 2007 06:19 AM
#48
Paul Box
Drake Homes LLC - Oklahoma City, OK

Ryan,

 Currently it seems that the homes in the 2500 - 3800 range are still in demand, at least that the average size that I currently hold in contracts. Depending on the location I have compiled and designed drawings for anything from 1200 - 7800 ft2. I have the ability though to create just about anything, one of the latest drawings that I've taken on, is a conventional build that has that rustic log-cabin style that is on a waterfront location. Gotta love the perks of building on beautiful properties. 

Please let me know if you have any hot properties that could stand another spec, or maybe another client that may be in need of a quality custom builder.       I'm always open to suggestions.

Sep 20, 2007 07:36 AM