I spent Wednesday morning in Hartford for Realtor Day At the Capitol, where we were given details on issues that we should consider supporting, and issues that we need to come out enforce against. I plan on covering a couple of the issues that we need to strongly oppose, and one that should be supported.  I will start with the one that probably ticked me off the most House Bill HB 6349, and cover the other two in their own posts.

It was no surprise to learn that Connecticut like a lot of other States is hurting for money right now.  It was also no surprise that our State Legislators are trying to come up with creative of ways of coming up with the money to meet their budget, instead of making tough decisions to cut back on spending.  As a result the minds of of our State Legislators have been working over time on how to dig deeper into our pockets to make up their budget shortfall.

This year they might even be out doing themselves in their creativity.  It seems that taxing our income at both the Federal and State level is not enough, so they have figured out a third way to tax our income directly through a so called tax on "Professional Services".  In the Real Estate Industry this would include Realtors Commissions, Appraisals, Insurance, and Home Inspections, and it would work sort of like the State Sales Tax.

Connecticut currently has a 6% sales tax on almost all goods purchased.  Sales taxes as most of us know are paid at the point of sale, and are a result of us making a conscious voluntary decision to purchase an item that we desire, if we choose not to purchase we do not pay.  Now some genius at the State Capitol may make the argument that this new proposed tax is also a result of us making a voluntary conscious decision, but there would be one major problem with that.  This decision would be made out of a need to work, so that we can buy food, and pay our financial obligations.  This decision would result in a 6% tax on top of the income taxes that we are already paying. Also this tax unlike the sales tax which is paid by the person receiving the product, would be paid by the person providing the services.

If this tax is enacted, upon the sale of a house Realtors will be taxed a 6% sales tax on their commission on top of the Federal and State Income Taxes that they are already paying.  The same would hold true for the Appraiser, Home Inspector, and so on down the line.  I don't know about you, but this is triple taxation to me, and highly questionable.

Now this tax is not just restricted to the Real Estate Industry, but to all who will fall under the definition (which is not really known yet) of "Professional Services".  Anyone who feels that all those Realtors out there that make a boat load of money anyway should be taxed as much as possible, need to stop and think for a minute, what if the State decides to include what you do in their definition of "Professional Services"? Remember they have not fully define what "Professional Services" is.

This is a BAD tax for a whole host of reasons, and everyone in Connecticut needs to get on the phone with their State Legislators, and tell them what a bad idea this is.  House Bill HB 6349 needs to be voted down, but it will not be voted down unless we make those at the State Capitol know that we know what they are doing, and don't like it.

 
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270 Comments on New Proposed Tax On Commissions.

APR
02

And this is on top of matching your own FICA.

I thought slavery in this country ended in the 1800's.

2:08pm • #1
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Steve, before to long it will not be worth working, and become another reason for the state to have to raise more money to take care of us.

2:20pm • #2
Outside Blog

George, Great Post!  We were at the Capitol yesterday too.  It is important that as Realtors we ban together and show that we will not stand for such a ridiculous tax.  We are hard working professionals and shouldn't be punished for that.

You should check out our most recent post with the video "I am not a lead".

2:27pm • #3
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

You are right and we need to get the word out about this.

2:43pm • #4
832,394 Points 213 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

This is no more and no less than a violation of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution which guarantees equal protection. 

This tax on a select group on top of the existing tax on income by the federal and state taxing authorities is not equal treatment. 

Most states and counties have a tax or fees on the transfer of real property. 

If they are going to tax only those commission involved in the transfer of real property, it's another blow the housing industry which needs desperately to recover from the damage the government has already caused. 

This is a cause for outrage.   

 

4:10pm • #5
596,624 Points 111 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

This isn't new to us....we've had to pay federal, state and state GET *(general excise sales tax) for ages. They even raised it two years ago so they could get more money for the rail system. uh huh...i will be taking my clients on a rail system that goes for x miles. That's another story.  ALL small business owners (independent contractors) pay...and so does the consumer ...and us again...when we go to buy something from stores etc.

4:15pm • #6
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Lenn I agree.  We also have a conveyance tax on Sellers that is anywhere between 1/2 to 1% of the Sales Price on Sellers.  This tax was suppose to sunset two years ago, but now that they have it, they are not taking it away.  They are also trying to place a 1% conveyance tax on the Buyers this session, that will be to topic of the next blog.

Sally, well we are fighting to keep that from happening around here.  Wish us luck.

4:25pm • #7

I'm so sick of additional taxes...why don't we downsize or make government work on a reduced budget like the rest of the country and private business is doing these days. 

4:27pm • #8

George:

 Connecticut seems to be on a roll, I had followed some news out of your state for diferent reasons and I found this. I am enclosing a news article from the Knights of Columbus.

Assisted-Suicide Bill Tabled in Connecticut
Only a week after introducing, then pulling, a bill to strip Catholic bishops of administrative authority over their church, the co-chairmen of the Connecticut legislature's Judiciary Committee offered a measure to legalize assisted suicide in the state. After a quick outcry by Knights and other Catholics, the suicide measure was quickly pulled from consideration until next year. Learn more about Bill 1138, the assisted suicide bill. Learn more about Bill 1098, the attack on the Catholic Church, and the rally against it at the Capitol.

Thanks for letting people know how the States and Our Federal government is always trying to get their hands into our pockets, one way or another.

http://www.kofc.org/un/index.cfm

Thanks.

Adolfo

Adolfo

 

 

 

 

4:35pm • #9
225,354 Points 41 Featured Posts Outside Blog

George, you're right.  The problem is that they never look at curtailing spending, but taxing a source they haven't tapped yet.  They should do like we do at home when things are tight.  Cut back on unecessary spending. 

We just lost a battle with our county on another blow they issued to the housing industry.  But that's another tale for another day.

Best of luck to you in this fight my friend.

4:36pm • #10
265,267 Points 19 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Where is my Native American Warpaint, and point me in the direction of the ship full of tea!

4:38pm • #11
201,103 Points 19 Featured Posts Outside Blog

George,

If this goes through in any state it will soon be in all states! Of course the Fed's will want it too. With the regard the public has for real estate people this could easily pass. The proposed tax rate of 6% is an interesting choice, the public may find it ironic.

There may be hope, many in the field could easily prove their services are far from professional.

Bill

4:44pm • #12
164,435 Points 1 Featured Post

It's insane....the only good news is that they are going to go so far that the people will have to wake up and make some changes.

4:45pm • #13
156,867 Points 9 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

Oh my...Well Nevada requires we pay a $100 annual business license that I think is rediculous, considering the fact that our license renewals already are sky-high. I have heard that Nevada is planning to consider adopting a state income tax...Talk about putting salt in the wound...

A reduction in government and spending is right, and George, my hat is off to you for saying something about and it and not just accepting it as another cost of doing business.

4:48pm • #14
596,464 Points 80 Featured Posts Outside Blog

This is what happens when socialistic thinking enters the government...it takes from those they perceive rich.  That is just raw politics and whom the peopel are electing.  There is not free lunch, someone has to pay for the tab, and in your state it is you.  The real estate industry is always a prime target because we flaunt 'million dollar clubs' etc.  M thoughts?  You haven't seen anything yet.  I used to live in New York and I would not move back because of the high tax structure that you find in the northeast.  The rest of the nation does not pay taxes to the degree the northeast states do.  It is criminal.  In the past southern states have gained in population.  

In tax burden by state Connecticut comes in #3. 

4:49pm • #15
117,946 Points 2 Featured Posts Outside Blog

the hits just keep on coming. they better remember that 6% of nothing is nothing.

4:52pm • #16

Hi all,

I am from NJ and this has been on the floor for a few years. You all need to support your RPAC. NJAR has been working for us on this subject for awhile now. Maybe they should contact Jarrod Grasso NJAR to discuss what he has been doing. Keep in mind this is ongoing and thanks to our RPAC they have been successful in warding it off.  Keep your eyes and ears open they have tried to slip it in every year here.

Rosemarie Villanova
5:09pm • #17
422,989 Points 81 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

A variation of this was proposed in Maryland last year and the legislators caved after a huge contingent of REALTORS demonstrated at the State Capitol.

5:14pm • #18
150,427 Points 4 Featured Posts

They tried to do this awhile back in Oklahoma, and we were running a budget surplus at the time. In Oklahoma even garage sales have to have a sales tax permit so you can pay tax on what was orginally purchased and taxed. Our bill was defeated. Now if they want to pass real estate legislation I would suggest that our state license builders. You got it, everything else is licensed including fencing contractors but not builders. Crazy world isn't it.

5:22pm • #19
1 Featured Post

If you think it's bad now, just wait and see what happens when the bill for the past and proposed bail-outs hits.  There's not enough money in the U.S. to pay for all the proposed spending and printing more green ink on pieces of paper which are not backed by anything will end up causing massive inflation.  In addition, I can hardly wait until the proposed carbon-offset scheme makes everyone's electric bill go up $3,000 per year.  That'll be fun.  I'm with Michael.  They can't tax what we don't have.

In my opinion, just as it's not ok to enslave someone for half of their life in order to force them to provide services for someone else who doesn't want to work, it's also not ok to take half of someone's hard-earned income and give it to those who have found it easier not to take responsibility for themselves.

As I recall, Florida pols floated the idea of a professional services tax a while back, but it got tabled (probably since nearly every person in the state has a real estate license:-)

5:26pm • #20
381,870 Points 3 Featured Posts Outside Blog

George: This is horrible... I hope the people can defeat this bill.

5:34pm • #21

 

Hello George,

I believe should have the opportunity to vote on the amount of taxes we are wailing to pay, after all we work very hard for our money furthermore we are already paying an extra 1% sale tax in San Mateo County California, now is 9.25%. Thank you for sharing.

5:51pm • #22
1 Featured Post

Tennessee has this tax.   It's absurb and discriminating to the few professions included in it. And yes, real estate brokers are included.

5:55pm • #23
606,945 Points 244 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

George, They have been talking about this in Florida for quite a while now. It hasn't passed though and I'm not sure ot ever will. If it does I guess I'll just have to charge more. And that's the problem.

6:12pm • #24
232,553 Points 27 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

Wow this is scary.  In Philadelphia, we also get hit up by the BPT (business privledge tax) and NPT (net profit tax).  It is painful. 

6:13pm • #25
200,396 Points 1 Featured Post Outside Blog

George, we already pay a 5% tax on our commission, on top of the personal tax we pay ... however, they are now talking about increasing that tax to 13%... I don't know how this will help anyone, but that's the plan.

6:48pm • #26

Here in Utah, we've been threatened with this tax very year since 1998. We've defeated it every time, often because Utah has been thriving economically. In 2004, Gubernatarial Candidate John Huntsman, told our  Realtors that as Governor, he'd never support tax on services. This year, of course everyone is struggling. Governor Huntsman (a month AFTER re-election!) announced that we should "look into" a tax on professional services. We sent out a "call to action" and there was so much response by our members that we froze the newspaper's website. They called us and asked us to stop! In Utah, the definition would include anyone holding a state license. That includes a host of non-related business people. The Guv backed off. But, we will see it again this year I'm sure we'll beat it again. You should find that this is the best tool to raise RPAC funds you'll ever see. It's also the reason you need to raise them! Simply figure out what this will cost Realtor members per transaction. In our area, based on average sales price it orks out to about $180 per transaction side. Sell just ONE side a month and you are paying over $2100! Then ask them for $100, $500 or $1000. We found some time ago that using RPAC funds to get Realtor friendly candidates elected is much more cost effective than trying to chyange their mind once they are there. You MUST find a way to stop it now! Use every group that will be affected. Go after some that aren't in the bill, because they will be when it's time to increase the tax! As posted above, there really is no such thing as a sunset clause on a tax. They actually grow! Good luck!

Chris Sloan
6:59pm • #27
5 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

Completely insane. But a quick question. What do you pay for your "privilege license" if you have one in Connecticut? That's a tax to the state as well which we pay here in NC.

7:16pm • #28
108,624 Points 11 Featured Posts

They just passed a huge tax hike in California that puts us at the top in the nation overall. We now are going to pay a 2.5% tax, called a surcharge, on our state taxes owed. If you state income tax is $5000, for example, you will pay another 2.5% of that amount as a surcharge. Sounds like double taxation to me.

7:19pm • #29

that sucks...i assume they got the "6%" because that's what they believe we get on every listing? 

7:22pm • #30
315,698 Points 8 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router

That just seems ridiculous. States are looking for money everywhere they can.

7:46pm • #31
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Stuart, that is because they are not afraid of not being elected back in.  They need to be scared every once in a while so that the do not feel so comfortable about re-election.

Adolfo, I have not been following that one, but Connecticut has lots of issues.

Maggie, cutting back is not even a consideration for politicians any more.

Alan, a Connecticut Tea Party, now I could go for that :)

Bill your right once a tax is enacted they all what a piece of the action.

8:50pm • #32
146,140 Points 7 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Regardless whether this is legal or not..... the majority voted for this 'leadership'

Luckily we get to vote again in a couple of years.

 

8:55pm • #33
186,891 Points

In Ontario we already have a GST (federal sales tax) at 5%. It taxes commissions.

There is a PST (provincial sales tax) of 8%. Commissions are exempt.

There is a current proposal to have an HST (harmonized sales tax) collected by the federal government. Commissions would no longer be exempt. They would be taxed at 13%.

Brian Madigan

8:57pm • #34

That is absolutely ridiculous.   Well, are the state legislators going to be taxed 6% on their earned income (political contributions)!

8:57pm • #35
145,306 Points Hit Router

Thanks America for electing the socialist Obama!

8:57pm • #36
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Karen, they think that they are above it all, and that they are safe from change.  Maybe it is time to prove them wrong.

Christianne, thank you.  By the way we have a State Income Tax on top of all this also.

Jim, up here the politicians have not found a tax that they do not like yet.  It is getting out of control up here.

Michael, they don't seem to care.  When one well drys up they just move on to the next.

Rosemarie, I am sure that if we defeat it this year, that it will be back again next year.  That is what they have been doing with the conveyance tax on Buyers, we have seen this proposed the last three years.  That is the subject of my next blog.

8:58pm • #37

We have a president and congress that is leading us right down the line to socialism. I hate to say I told you so to all the liberal progressives, but..................

Barbara Foy
8:59pm • #38
8 Featured Posts

I just sold a house in November that I had to sit in for 15 hours hosting an open house (per the bank requirements) before it went to auction.  Not to mention paperwork time and time to get it closed - I spent at least 45 hours on it.  I made 1%.  It sold for 12,500.  So, for 125 bucks, minus my broker's split, I'm left with 75 dollars.  I therefore made approximately $1.66 an hour.

If I worked in a factory for that, they wouldn't allow it.  They really feel the need to tax me on that?

Glad I'm not still working for a "big" company that charges me $2,000 a month in desk fees!!!

9:00pm • #39

Hawaii already charges tax on commission. Usually it was on top of the Seller's commission. We had to report and pay monthly. I have since moved back to the mainland, Kansas. Not here yet...Jodi

Jodi Knapp
9:01pm • #40
275,868 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I live in a red state that is more Republican than it ever has been. The more taxes and spending the more outraged people will get.  You can move here and help us out.  You may have to join a union to get your voice heard, lol.  Then you have union dues?

9:02pm • #41

Hawaii has GET (General Excise Tax) on all professional services and has for many years.  In place of a sales tax, we assess GET on every stage of production.  Not saying its good, its just there.

9:04pm • #42

The sad fact is that as more and more people are employees and less are business owners these bills have a chance of passing. The average consumer doesn't understand and our government is perpetuating class warfare. They want you to believe that a business owner like 'Joe the Plumber' is rich and therefore he should pay his 'fair share'. Well that is great unless you happen to be the business owner. I hope that these bills are defeated but I fear that eventually a few will get passed and then it will become a wave.

9:05pm • #43
1 Featured Post Localism Sponsor

Hey, George.  This is truly scary.  I don't even want to figure out what a 6% tax on my production would do to my bottom line...(Sticking my fingers in my ears and shaking my head). 

Let us know if you need a call to action...from the rest of us...Would love to jam up the idiot politician's line who came up with this idea for CT...

 

9:05pm • #44

The voting public wanted change...so here it is!!!

9:06pm • #45

So why work at all?  We already pay our portion plus our employers portion (since we are "self employed") of taxes.  Let's bite the hand that feeds us.  For everyone who wnated "CHANGE"-congratulations.  Busch did not create this economic mess, it goes back DECADES to when the democrats were in charge.  Luckily for our current president most Americans are uninformed and self centered enough to not pay attention or make connections between policy and and consequences.

Oh well, I guess I'll pay off some more credit cards with the equity in my house that I don't have!

Denise
9:06pm • #46

Unless I'm missing something, all it will do is increase the dollars that the consumer pays - similar to any other sales tax.

You will just go from charging "X%" to charging "X% + Taxes" for your services.  It doesn't hurt you or come out of your pocket, it hurts the consumer - but no more so than any other sales tax...just on a higher-value amount...again, unless I'm missing something...

Joshua Hanoud
9:07pm • #47
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Margaret, lets hope that all the Realtors at the Capitol on Wednesday were able to show them that we represent a lot of votes.

Joe, I would have thought that builders would have been among the first that they would have made be licensed.

Eric, the price tag on those bail-outs are going to be felt for a long time, and they keep on talking about more.

Roland, we stand a good chance to defeat it, but the problem is they will just keep on bring it back.

Mayra, wow that is the highest that I have heard of.  By the way my wife is from San Mateo, and that is were I met her :)

9:07pm • #48

Great post George.  You are doing a service to us all by making sure everyone is aware of the actions of Government that will touch us all.  Is it 2012 yet?

9:08pm • #49
5 Featured Posts

That's true. It's already happening here in HI and has been for quite some time.

Atlas Shrugged.

9:08pm • #50

Glad I don't live in Connecticut but you can bet if there were a way to pass that bill here in Oregon they would be right on it.  For now we pay our state and federal income tax on our commission but  the government is always looking for any and all ways to get their hands on every dime they can.

9:11pm • #51

Hey, you people are whining about losing some of your hard earned commissions while millions of people find it difficult to survive. Maybe those extra dollars will help you get more jobs. Has anyone entertained this idea? Think about it. Californian

9:13pm • #52

Since taxes seem to be the norm any more, we can fight, conform, or look at having an optional stream of income to offset losses.

Myself, I've had to change everything I do in order to stick it out here in Michigan. I went from Traditional sales, to HUD's and Foreclosures. I'm working a lot harder, and longer hours, but I'm still in the game. My "Plan B" is growing for me and others all over the country, so when it's time to make a decision to stay in or go, I'll be able to go that too. 12,000 others joined us last month too, so I guess I'm not the only one planning for the future.

Ray Logan
9:13pm • #53
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Linda, your state is probably where they got the idea from.  This sort of thing needs to stop.

Bryant, they don't seem to realize that, and it is adding to the already high costs of purchasing a house.

Christopher, they are getting to the point that what we pay in taxes will be more then we keep.

Chris thank you for the advice, and yes we have learned the hard way about the no such thing a a sunset on a tax with our conveyance tax on Sellers.

Sarah I have not heard of a "privilege license" before.  Lets hot give them any more ideas :)

9:17pm • #54

George thanks for posting that valuable information..I agree why dont they cut the govt benefits, Im sure they would make up much more money than taxing the self employeed.  When is this all going to end. The only "change" I have seen is in my pocket. 

Nan Brennan
9:17pm • #55
111,290 Points 10 Featured Posts Outside Blog

My wonderful state of Minnesota is considering taxing services again this year...last year it was voted down. Our Legislative Impact Day for Realtors is coming up soon and this is a huge issue we are trying to, once again, strike down. Last year when they proposed taxing services, it aslo included lawyers. As always, a tax increases like this eventually gets passed on to the consumer. If we have to pay more, than the consumer either has to pick up the tab, or services offered get slashed.

9:20pm • #56
427,273 Points 47 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Unbelievable what will they think of next. I am sure NAR will be all over this one!

9:21pm • #57
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Cameron, wow that is scary, taxing a tax, wow.

Jaime, it might be, but it is also what our State Sales Tax is.

Erica, ridiculous is a good word for it.

Tom the problem is they just keep on putting them back in office election after election.

Brian, with all those taxes there is nothing left.

9:23pm • #58
1 Featured Post Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

George they tried the same thing in Michigan but it didn't happen. Then last year they tried to tax brokers on the commissions paid to agents TG at the 11th hour they pulled it back. When times were good the govt kept buying bigger purses now that times are bad they won't get smaller ones. I say cut back like everyone else.

 

 

9:23pm • #59
Outside Blog Hit Router

We are going to be taxed into poverty.   Paying income tax and a sales tax is bad enough as they have your coming and going.  Enough is enough.  We need to start looking at alternative ways to FAIRLY collect tax such as the Flat Tax or Consumption Tax.  Either way we would be better off.

9:25pm • #60

Pay a "New Proposed Tax on Commissions"?  "YES WE CAN!" 

9:27pm • #61
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Susan, I am sure they will not consider themselves as providing a "Professional Service", after all there would have to be a service provided in order to qualify :)

Joe, it goes a lot further than that.

Barbara, the problem is there is no check and balance with a House, Senate, and Presidential office being of the same party.

Joslyn, that was not enough to buy gas and a hamburger, much less any more tax.

Jodi, I am sure they will be proposing that where you are now if they get wind of someone else is already doing it.

9:30pm • #62

I too was at Realtor Day at the Capitol in Hartford yesterday.  In our breakout session following the general session we had 7 - 8 members of the Legislature.  They were unamiously against this tax.  Hope they stick to this view and get enough others to vote agains it so that the tax does not pass.

And George, you are absolutely right.  As long as they can create revenue anytime they want by additional taxes and fees, they will never make meaningful cuts.  Almost all of us took at least a 10 - 20% paycut last year because of the market and somehow we surviced by cutting expenses.  If CT were to take an across the board budget cut of 15%, they would be screaming and hollowing from all the departments, but guess what, they would learn to live with it.  Just as we are doing.

By the way the 15% tax cut should apply to the budget allocated to the Legislature.  They should not be allowed to exempt themselves.

Bob Mori
9:31pm • #63

Wow, this will hurt a lot of professions - attorneys, inspectors, plumbers, electricians - aren't they all professional services? We get nailed with hefty fees just to be in business, pay our own taxes including FICA, and then they want to add another "sales" tax. It's ridiculous! Mutiny I say!

9:33pm • #64

So...maybe I'll retire somwehere in South America.  With what little money we'll have left, it'll be the closest and cheapest place to live...

Jeff Wilmoth
9:36pm • #65
259,608 Points

George, Great post, great info. We  were told there would be 'change'.

9:38pm • #66
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Eric, looks like they will get me one way or another .......... LOL

John, we have a State Sales Tax already, so we would have one up on you if this was to pass.

Christopher what people need to understand is that today they have come for me, but tomorrow they will come for them.

Natalie, now that is my kind of thinking.  By the way I have been through Winchester several times, it is a beautiful part of the country.

John, yep they got change, the wrong kind of change, but they got change.

9:38pm • #67
1 Featured Post Outside Blog

Lenn Harley is right on!  What a ridiculous idea!

9:39pm • #68

I moved from MA to Tn and now I see there is no where to run.

Speaking of Atlas shrugged If anyone has kids there is a great book called "an Island called Liberty" It is Ann Rand meets Dr suess. Since it seems the last couple of generations are lost to the New  ideal of "change" Maybe we can save the 13 and under crowd by starting them young. As a Military wife and Realtor I truly fear the next 7 years.

Kit McLean
9:39pm • #69
Outside Blog

These taxes are getting ridicilious, if you work and make money they want to take everything from you to hand out to who they see fit. If you work hard and dont make any more money than those who dont work at all, Where is the motivation. When the Workers lose motivation, we have a big problem.

9:39pm • #70

Wow. That would be crazy. Oh yeah, don;t forget the good old fashinoed conveyance taxes that the state of CT and its municipalities tack on to the sale of a house! What will be a real trip is when they start taxing money that is not being spendt because it should help "stimulate the economy." Oh wait, they already do that! It's called tax on interest income!

9:40pm • #71
Localism Sponsor

With the new administration in the WH, I wouldn't be surprised at anything anymore.

2.8 trillion of my $$$ spent without my consent which hasn't done anything for the economy!

I'm already wishing I was in 2012.

9:41pm • #72

They tried to do this in Arkansas as well last year but it was voted down. At our local board luncheon today our ARPAC representative noted that they tried again this year as well. It is important to have political clout and our local ARPAC (Arkansas Realtors Political Action Committee) has been contributing to elected officials who support our goals on the local and state level. Representatives from our local and state organizations interview candidates to determine their views and ARPAC contributes to their campaigns accordingly. For an issue like this, a phone call to officials who have received funds from us may work. We're not buying votes, but rather access to those officials to make our voice heard.

It's important to band together. I agree that triple taxation is not just.

Judy Luna, Keller Williams Realty NWA, Fayetteville, Arkansas

Judy Luna
9:43pm • #73

I would think that professional services should also include those provided by doctors. Our County Commissioners passed a tax in August, retroactive to January 1, 2008 on Realtors who make commissions on sales that occur in Multnomah County (Portland Oregon).  The wording is so convoluted that the tax professionals can't even figure out what to tell us to pay. We have other battles beginning at our State Capitol on just crazy legislation, all in the name of finding monies to support the increasing voracious appetite of our illustrious government. My question is. . .how do we get this madness to STOP at both the Federal & State levels???

9:43pm • #74
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Geroge, good luck in fighting this FYI Los Angeles, has been taxing every commission for over 13 years

9:44pm • #75

How many votes do you think it took to elect the officials that are thinking this stuff up.  There is a movement in this country to get involved and and do a better job of selecting our representatives.  In Oklahoma City most city council and state elected officials receive a few thousand votes in a city of several hundred thousand.  It's still very much a good ole boy network.   

Ed McNamara
9:44pm • #76
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Denise, I had not thought about using that strategy with my credit cards :)

Joshua, it hurts everyone on down the line.

Kim I am looking forward to that year :)

Bob, that is what others from Hawaii have stated in there comments. I wish you guys would keep it over there.

Sandy if this passes here and other states, it will not be long before you see it as well.

9:45pm • #77

WHY do people keep putting people like dodd and frank in office, who caused the financial Mess we are in now?  Now we have Socialist barry, to finish the job!

We had better Wake up!

eugene
9:48pm • #78

Sadly I have to report that Hawaii already has that kind of tax into effect. It is a GET tax of a little over 4% imposed on commission and self employed income and it is  calculated on gross income!

Sometimes the seller offers to pay that tax on top of the commission, to try and intice buyer agents to show his/her property to clients.

I hope it doesn't get applied in your state, because once it is in place, that's just another split you have to make from your commission check!

Monique Ting
9:50pm • #79

And that's one of the reasons I live in Wyoming. No personal income tax. No corporate income tax. Low property taxes. And a place where people value property rights above all else.

Of course, when we run out of coal, or the proposed federal carbon taxes make coal unattractive, things will change.

9:51pm • #80

Thanks for the information.  It is unbelievable what is happening to our country.  How many times can the same income be taxed???  I attended our first Atlanta Tea Party in February, and plan to attend the next one on April 15th.  The first one saw around 300 - 400, this time we are expecting over 10,000 people.  It is time that we impose our own term limits with our VOTES.

Sandra - I'm finding it difficult to survive, while watching our government enjoy unlimited health benefits, guaranteed salary for life and private planes.  My hard earned commissions have become very small these days, as housing prices collapse.  I have a family to feed and would hardly call it whining.  I don't want a bailout, I want to work.  I don't want the government to take your money and give it to me.  I want to make my own money, and I want to give it to organizations of my choice.  I'm tired of seeing REALTOR's personal residences as short sales and foreclosures.  I don't think any of us are running around with much extra money.

Joslyn - You're right.  Last time I checked, $1.66 isn't exactly minimum wage, and I didn't read your post as whiny.  I'd hate to see another 6% taken from your whopping $75.00.

It is shameful to see the principles our country was founded on watered down and wahsed away.  This is an economic cycle, made worse by government interference.  Penalizing productivity is NOT the answer, it is the problem.  We can and will bounce back, but need to do it through hard work, smart decisions - not by becoming a socialist state.

9:51pm • #81

In New Mexico we pay Gross Receipts tax on real estate commission and have for as long as I can remember.  Identical to the sales tax we pay at the grocery store or the dry cleaners.

And were not talking chump change either, in most of New Mexico it is 6.75% of the commission and it is due the 25th of the month after the sale occurred. As you can imagine it adds up to a serious coin paid every single month.

Usually the party paying the commission has agreed to pay and the escrow company calculates it for each side on the Settlement Statement, then the brokerage pays it to the State, but if it's not collected (like an out of state bank owned property often will not pay) it's still due and is calculated on top of the commission earned. More pain on that hard earned foreclosure sale!

Kent Davis

 

 

9:53pm • #82
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Sandra, I don't see how taxing everyone into a state of poverty will help those that are without jobs, OH yes I get it misery loves company.  So lets put everyone out of work.

Ray we all make adjustments, the governments idea of an adjustment is to find new things to tax instead of looking for ways to cut back.

Nan, and I am sure that you are finding less change in your pocket with each passing tax.

Jennifer they do not seem to realize that.

Bill they are and we should beat it, but it will be back and back again.  Watch out my friend you are right next door :)

9:54pm • #83
254,771 Points 2 Featured Posts Hit Router

Hi George -- Amazing, and I sure hope it's defeated.  Pretty soon, we'll all be working for free.

9:58pm • #84
355,473 Points 9 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

I just read an article in Inman about this.  They think this is going to be proposed in many states.  I don't see anything on NAR's site!  With all the pac money we give, we should also put pressure on NAR to get on top of this.  I am going to miss my public policy meeting tomorrow, but I will forward this information to the chair.

10:00pm • #85

Once you give the government an inch.....that's it. It is only a matter of time before they become overbearing. On top of the Federal, State, and City taxes we pay there are also Point of Sale inspections with escrows from 125% to 200% of estimated repair costs. They are requiring city electrical inspections for services off more than a year, occupancy permits (that do nothing in terms of any accidents on the property but will harm you if you don't have them) for residential, rental, and commercial on top of paying tax on city services and county sales tax. Oh yea, then despite the consistent decline in value on property, property taxes continue to go up.

If I want to support the less fortunate, I'll donate to a charity that focuses on that. That is how I cast a vote for what I wish to support and I'm qualified to vote on it. Similary, if voting on property taxes was limited to property owners, I sincerely doubt you would see the obscene rise in property taxes. The individual is the largest minority and sadly is being forsaken for the "public welfare" and the "good of the masses". Last year I quoted Ayn Rand in a post "America Shrugged" and it is ever more important now.

 "Such is the secret core of your creed, the other half of your double standard: it is immoral to live by your own effort-it is immoral to consume your own product-but moral to consume the product of others-it is immoral to earn, but moral to mooch-it is the parasites who are the moral justification for the existence of the producers, but the existence of parasites is an end in itself-it is evil to profit by achievement, but good to profit by sacrifice-it is evil to create your own happiness, but good to enjoy it at the price of the blood of others."

 Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged, Chapter VII "This is John Galt Speaking", Page 1031, 35th Anniversary Edition

Californian, those millions might survive if they weren't being taxed into oblivion and then my business would exponentially grow. Taxation deprives the individual, it doesn't empower them. I've been to other countries in Africa and have extended family there. I've seen firsthand, this country doesn't know the meaning poverty / survival.

10:02pm • #86
289,869 Points 52 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

Tennessee tried the "professional services" tax several years ago. Every professional in Tennessee with a license of any sort was included.

A mass march on the state capital put the idea to rest very quickly.

We (Tennessee Realtors) got some RPAC dollars from NAR to work with in our fight plus we had every attorney, barber, physician, accountant, and every other licensee and their professional associations standing with us.

You can beat it.

10:03pm • #87
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Ed, they know how to add on, but have no clue on how to cut back.

Simon, that is one idea, but it first needs to start on trying to make due with the money you have instead of try to find more pockets to stick their hands in.

James throw some of that extra cash my way.

Bob, I agree.  We had about six Legislators, but they were all the ones that were already on our side.  Those that are not did not even stick their head in the door.

Diane, yes they all fit the definition the way I look at it.

10:03pm • #88

George--This is a typical example of "Give an Inch, Take a Mile". The politicos get plenty of money from us already and just can't seem to make that work. They are experts at consumption without production.

What in Sam Hill do they think gives them the right to ANY of our efforts. It's just never enough. They just keep taking and taking. Atlas will shrug.

I hope your citizens vote this down.

10:04pm • #89

Just when I thought I had heard it all coming from the mouths of overpaid, under worked elected officials.  What happened to all of the money they reaped when things were good?  We are taught to plan for both good and bad times and by golly our cities and states should too and not just start taxing things just because they can.

Utterly ridiculous!

10:05pm • #90
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Jeff you better do that while you still have enough to do it :)

Jean looks like we are getting that change :)

Corey, Lenn usually has it right and she definitely is right on this one.

Kit, lets hope it does not take that long.

Walter, if everyone was unemployed, I am sure they would find away to tax them to.

10:10pm • #91
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Hmmm, professional services I wonder if they will try to apply this to the "street professionals"? Have to have some humor when the government spends way more than it has and then instead of cutting services and budget items it goes looking to pick the pockets of hard working citizens who are struggling to stay afloat in a down economy. It is laughable.

10:12pm • #92

Forum

Simply Unbelievable !  Then again, we are dealing with quite a few folks in government who have never held a real job outside government.

Here's a good idea.........since our new administration wants to raise taxes on everyone making over $ 250K.......................Let's tax total candidate war chests the Maximum Rate Annually that they raise through fund raising for office.  They'd have millions to pay for their state and federal welfare programs.

Any comments?  We need to push this in each state or as some type of national referendum.

Better yet..........tax it as regular income.............with the administrations tax rate figures........almost half would go to taxes.

Just food for thought.

10:14pm • #93

Did our Ontario government learn from your Govt. or yours took a page from ours?

By the way, Joshua Honoud seems to be correct in assessemnt. all your will be doing is charging your commission plus that additional taxes for Professional Services. Consumers will get hurt more with this tax and may pass on this "hur" by the way of lower compensation/commissions.

Food for thoight....can the consumer avoid paying this tax claiming that the services were not "professional" (pun intended).

 

10:15pm • #94

The natural market driven response to more taxes is higher prices. The commission just has to be raised to take care of paying the additional cost. The cost of doing business doesn't go down just because an intrusive government increases taxes. Purchasers of the services still have to pay the freight. Am I missing something? If my business model requires that I make a certain profit in my business to stay in business, I must increase my prices to reflect that lost revenue.

I agree with everyone that the last thing that the government should do in this down economy, is to increase the cost of selling a home. Since the government as a whole has decided to create deficits that can only be paid for by printing more money, the result will always be higher prices for everything. It isn't just a local issue, it is a national issue. Someone else pointed out that the federal government will soon cause all states to have the same triple taxation. You can bet on it.

Soon the people will realize what a huge mistake that has been made and insist on "real change." The only "change I can believe in" is a government that stops spending when there is no money. Government has to start living by the same rules we do!

10:15pm • #95
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Stacey, the conveyance tax on Buyers is back again this year.  1% this time.

Cameron, there are many of us waiting for the same thing.

Judy, that is just smart politics on your part.

Lynette, I wish I had answer for you.  Maybe the answer is for more of us to run for public office.

Endre, thanks for the well wishes, I hope we do not follow in that path.

10:18pm • #96

OMG. Can they think of enything else to further tank the industry?  This is a terrible idea and I hope it gets voted down.

10:19pm • #97

Does the professional services tax include the doctor, accountant, dentist? How about Joe the Plumber? If the government taxes all professional service providers, at some point these costs are going to be passed on to the consumer. The dentist will charge you $200 for filling a cavity and you'll pay an additional 6% professional services tax. It will be the same as purchasing a shirt and paying a 6% state sales tax at the register.

Even if these businesses do not show you a line item charge for the tax, you can be sure they will pass those costs of doing business along to the consumer.

It may start with the real estate profession but as the states need more money, they will end up taxing all businesses that provides a service.

We are all going to be paying higher taxes to fund the spending spree that the government is on.

 

10:19pm • #98

I read an apt quote from Winston Churchill somewhere today on our and your situation.....

"For a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."

.....but our politicians of the day are not of this callibre, vision or stature. They are selfish bunch of people who, once they are defeated, will get some other cushy jobs with mega companies whose interest they protected while they were in power.

 

10:23pm • #99
4 Featured Posts

Nice post but you are way too nice... I would highlight the representative who introduced the bill and post their contact information so concerned professionals can contact them.

The really sad part is how much these same governments were making when the times were good and spent it all while increasing their annual budgets like it was going to last forever.

There is a reason why TEA Parties are getting bigger and bigger... there is one near you on April 15th and I suggest you support it to help send the message...

http://teapartyday.com/

Of course... I should probably not complain about the increased taxation going on in other states since it's bringing us business as people look to escape states such as Taxifornia. 

Just promoting government responsibility since they seem to have forgotten who they work for and where they get their money.

 

 

10:25pm • #100

Sounds like a state by state problem to me. I don't hear any of this from the federal govt. They had a deal like this in Michigan pop up last year....a tax on brokers, but it died.

It also sounds like too many of you are using this for a political forum and all seem to listen to Rush and Sean too much. Don't forget which party got us into this mess.

All of us who have been around for a long time  (25 years) remember, we made a ton of money during Clinton's years....and didn't have to cook the books in govt to do it. We made some in Bush's first term, then it started down....so lets not blame the current admin just yet.

Now what do you say we get this political bashing off this site and make it relevant to what is going on in our business and not all of us out there try to make the rest of us think you are all political experts.....Economic experts....foriegn policy experts...just stick to what we know best, REAL ESTATE.

And I appologise for voting for Bush twice....

Larry...from where else Michigan

 

10:26pm • #101
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Ed until people stop voting along party lines and start paying attention to what is going on and who is voting for what this will not stop.

Eugene, Amen!

Monique, we are running out of things to split, sorry to hear you guys already have this.

Tim, then you guys will unfortunately be like the rest of us, tax poor.

Lisa I should hire you to answer my comments, you did a much better job then me :)

10:26pm • #102

Taxation on services like this proposal has been discussed in my state and I agree with your point that it is a triple whamy for you all there.  The idea of cutting the budget never occurs to them, just increase revenue(taxes)  to keep the government machine churning!

10:29pm • #103
275,868 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog

You will begin to see a much more active underground ecomony being developed. Follow the new Federal tax on cigarettes as legal sales fall off. See how much more they actually collect.

With open borders this becomes a very profitiable business.

10:33pm • #104
151,357 Points 9 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor

George - I heard about the buyer's tax and was appalled.  Our economy has tanked because the housing industry went under.  The federal government is trying to stimulate housing sales and Connecticut is all set to hinder it with a buyer's tax.  I can't imagine how real estate agents will cope with a tax on commissions.  I know so many real estate agents who are losing their homes or going bankrupt.  This is a really tough time for our industry and not the time to add more taxes.  The state should just raise the income tax rate if they need more money, not create new forms of taxation.

10:34pm • #105

George,

I moved from Deep River to Jamestown NY 9 years ago. After I got licensed in NY I have kept the idea of moving back and getting a CT license. What can I say, I miss the ocean, Jamestown NY is the farthest county west. Think Lake Erie.

What a bad Idea. I would have to figure such a tax into the equation.

Apparently the government doesn't get it. The current president said we would all feel the pain. How much of a pay cut have they taken? No, I don't mean a cut in their pay increase. I mean a real honest to goodness pay decrease. Why not? I would suggest all elected officials who feel the need to increase taxes take a pay cut of corresponding value. Here is how it would work on a federal level. I don't know Ct officials wages.

US Prsident- Decrease from $400,000 to $320,000. That's a 20% decrease.

Senators and Reps- Decrease from 156,000 to $124,800. The same 20%.

20% sounds like a lot, however all these make more money in other ways. Many of us have taken these kinds of hits. What do you think? Are they really willing to share the pain??

JMHO

10:35pm • #106
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Kent, this sort of thing needs to stop, it is out of control.

Chris or not working at all.

Joan, thank you.  The more we get the word out the better the chance so stopping this.

Matthew, very well stated!!!

Jim, thank you.  I think we can to, but it will be some thing that will not stop just at this year, we have to be prepared to fight this for many more years to come.

10:35pm • #107

This is the worst idea regardingtaxation that I have heard to date.  I hope that all voting Americans wake up soon!

10:35pm • #108

HIS ORIGINAL ZIP CODE WERE HE LIVES IS 60606. OBAMA NATION

YOU WANTED CHANGE YOUR GETTING IT. HE WANTS TO SPEND HIS WAY OUT OF A RECESSION. THIS COUNTRY HAD RECESSIONS BEFORE AND WERE FINE. OVER SPENDING IS AGAINST ALL MY CORE BELIEFS. TAXING FUTURE GENERATIONS, SCARING PEOPLE RUSHING THE BAILOUTS SNEAKING ALL BOUSES IN. HES THE BIGGEST ALL TIME SPENDER, BOY WHAT A SALES MAN, CONSTANTLY ON TV SELLING HIS BOLONY. THE POLITICIANS ARE ALL THE SAME DEMOCRATES, REPUBLICANS AND THEY ALL GOTTA GET THERE CONTRIBUTIONS AND KICK BACKS FROM THE LOBBISTS AND BANKSTERS. CONGRESS KNOWS WHAT THERE DOING IS NOT RIGHT, BUT THERE NOT SPEAKING UP, MABY HE HAS SOMETHING ON THEM. CALL YOUR STATE SENATORS AND TELL THEM YOUR NOT HAPPY OR VOTE THEM OUT, THE MEDIA IS LIEING ABOUT HE POPULARITY, EVERYONE I TALK TO AINT HAPPY ABOUT WHAT HES DOING. WE ALL GOTTA VOTE WEATHER WE THINK ITS GONNA COUNT OR NOT.  HES ALL HYPE, PEOPLE WERE HYPNOTIZED, MABY THEYLL FINALLY WAKE UP. I DIDNT VOTE FOR HIM THE FIRST TIME AROUND, I BE VOTING FOR DIFFERENT PARTY NEXT TIME. PEOPLE WAKE UP, SNAP OUT OF IT.

JOHN CONNORS
10:37pm • #109
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Scott, we will give it our best shot.

Russel they found new ways to spend the surplus, now they have to find more money to fund all the new stuff they took on.  It is a cycle that we need to stop.

Kathryn, they would never tax those in the same line of work ....... LOL

Thor, now there is a good idea that will never see the light of day :)

Rajeev, they both seem to learn well from each other.

10:43pm • #110

Visions of the Boston Tea Party are swimming through my head after reading this.  And history keeps on repeating...

Eric Lowery, Author of the Expert Skills for Real Estate Agents Blog

Eric Lowery
10:44pm • #111

Here in Michigan, we've already visited that issue.  It began as an attempt to apply the  sales tax to the transfer of real estate!  Our state association with the help of rpac contributions was able to convince the legislature it was a terrible idea.  The lesson we learned is the same that NAR has been preaching for years, contribute to RPAC and be politically involved! 

If I can offer a suggestion, as a former congressional staffer, approach your legislators with real economic statistics  on the impact of such a tax.  Be reasonable, not confrontational, and point out the impact of their decision.  The primary argument being a tax on services will only result in a pass along to the consumer which will further slow the economy.

From personal experience, I can tell you that outrage doesn't work.  A thoughtful dose of realty does.

j

10:45pm • #112

ARRRGGHHH!!!!  More taxes on small businesses that employ people and are the greatest hope of getting the economy going again??  Such a tax may put me out of business.  My pockets are not that deep, folks.  Everyone should have to write the quarterly checks we write as indendent contractors.  These taxes would never pass.

Nancy Judovits (Weichert, Realtors Collegeville, PA)
10:52pm • #113
6 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

George:

Thank you for writing about this.  It is truly an outrage. I hope that other industries that provide "professional services" rise up over it as well. There may not be much of a frenzy over taxing realtors; however, if this will also apply to doctors, dentists and accountants, there may be a significant backlash. 

10:52pm • #114
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Bud, they stop seeming to understand simple facts once they get elected, and fall in line quickly, living by the same stands as the rest of us will only happen until they stop feeling that they are above us.

Margaret, they keep on trying to figure out ways to make things worst instead of better.

Michelle, time to stop the spending spree.

Rajeev, Churchill was a very smart man, we could use some smart men right about now.

Paul I will check out the site.  Thanks.

10:54pm • #115
351,468 Points 3 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

I'm with Lenn and Eric on this. 

Besides, we're told that we need to spend money to help the economy, but if we're paying higher taxes, how is that going to free up more spending money?

10:55pm • #116

WE Realtors in Maryland went to our state capital and STOPPED "the profeesional service tax" last year. ... IF AND WHEN, this comes to pass; Any tax like this should be on the HUD 1 and added to the SELLER or BUYER cost to settle. Ask your Broker to add it in their listing agreement. Just a thought.

JT Kaelin, SRES
11:00pm • #117
300,286 Points 27 Featured Posts Outside Blog Hit Router

George -

First of all, thanks for taking the time to acknowledge post comments.  Most do not do this!

Mainly, this tax is not just punitive and idiotic, it is pure politics.  The big, bad Commission Realtor and Commission Salesperson - making so much money in a troubled economy.  Who would complain about that?

I guess we're the political whipping boys again!

Would be very surprised if this ridiculous tax were enacted.  Then again, ridiculous taxes have been enacted for over 200 years now - so why should this be different.

Thanks for helping us all get our dander up!

DEAN & DEAN'S TEAM CHICAGO

11:09pm • #118
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Larry it is not being involved in politics enough, and showing the tax and spend for who they are that has gotten us into much of this mess.  If you don't think that taxing us out of business is part of our business then enjoy digging deeper into your pocket and looking the other way.  If the majority spoke up more often, then maybe we would not be in the mess that we are in.  But it seems that it is the minority that is leading because they do voice their opinion.

Charles making cuts is not even something they seem to consider.

Eric good point.

Gail this just seems to go against what we keep on hearing that needs to be done.  While one hand says lets help people buy more houses, the other hand seems to be saying lets make it more expensive and harder to do.  It would be nice if both worked together.

David when they say that we all need to feel the pain, they mean we all, not they all.

11:10pm • #119
3 Featured Posts Outside Blog

George thanks for bringing this to our attention. If it can happen in your state I am sure it will catch wind elsewhere. Pretty scary if you ask me. They need to stop spending so much and cut cut cut. Trim the fat!

11:12pm • #120
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Sharon, a wake call is in order indeed.

Eric a few people have suggested that another tea party is in order, they maybe right.

John, more taxes are never the answer, and you suggestion about how to approach this is a good one.

Nancy, we are trying to keep them from happening.

Claudette, you are right this will end up affecting many more than they think.

11:18pm • #121

George, Is this for the US as a whole?  Is it something that is specifically tied to Connecticut?  Because if this is for any Realtor, I think they are out of their minds!  As if we don't already have to pay enough each month and year just to stay in business.

Shannon Pyatt
11:18pm • #122
180,955 Points 1 Featured Post Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

I have never been to a protest in my life, but I am going to a TEA Party on April 15.  It was said above that they do not care about outrage.  But they will care as more and more people take to the streets.  These are not radicals they are parents, patriots, soldiers and the hard working people who make this country run.  This is the best country in the world and there are those that would rip it apart with taxes and socialism.  I am not a survivalist nut with stacks of weapons and food in the basement.  For the first time in my 48 years I fear for my country and I fear the loss of freedom. 

As an aside I want a clean environment, but so much of the Green Politics pandered to by the NAR and CAR is just an excuse to tax us and control our lives.  So basically my dues support propoganda for Tax and Spend agenda.  We have to do more than protest Realtors as victims, every citizen is a victim and most of us already pay double taxes.  Gasoline is taxed by the Gallon and then a Sales Tax is put into it too.  Most everything is taxed and retaxed at every stage of production.

Well there is my rant.  I could go all night, but I won't.

11:19pm • #123

Well the duped voters got what they wanted...the abomination ObamaNation.  My one small protest is the new flag flying outside my house....an American pre-Revolution flag flown by colonists in protest of English taxation - "Don't Tread On Me".  Online,  buy one, fly one...it will make you feel better.  Sort of ties into the "tea parties".  Also, vote Chris Dodd out of office.  Dodd and Barney Frank had a big part in our real estate meltdown.  We need to get our country back!

Linda Dawson
11:21pm • #124
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Christine, excellent point.

JT, hopefully this will not pass and that will not be needed.

Dean, there is no such thing as a ridiculous tax as far as they are concern that is why we have to keep our eyes open.

Winston, I am sure that it would spread else where as polititians in other State learn about it.

11:23pm • #125
172,829 Points 15 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

George - I am so sorry I missed Realtor's Day at the Capitol yesterday.  A number of agents from my office went and spoke about this proposed tax.  This is absolutely absurd and will do nothing to help Realtors or anyone else our ingenious state representatives feel fall into the "Professional Services" category.  The little piece of the pie that is left after we pay all our expenses will now turn to crumbs if this bill is allowed to pass.

11:26pm • #126
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Shannon, I am just writing about Connecticut, but from some of the comments it already exists in other states.

Gene, who knows maybe a Tea Party will also be in my future.

Linda, I think that Dodd will be in trouble this next time around.

11:27pm • #127
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Joan, you are so so right,  And by the way I looked for you, sorry you were not able to make it.

11:28pm • #128
Outside Blog

George - I hope this does not pass.  If there is anything we can do - let us know - so, action can be taken.  Thanks for keeping us informed.

11:40pm • #129

Don't we already have that???  I believe it's called Income Tax!

Kim Martinez
11:45pm • #130

The sad part is that the the unsuspecting consumer is the one that will pay for the tax hikes.  Regardless if it is against big business or "professional income", it gets passed on.  How long before Realtor commissions become 8 or 9% to offset the cost? 

The worst part is that the consumers do not undestand this and support "taxing the rich" and either the politicians do not understand this, or, more likely, do not care and use this as a platform to get re-elected.

Along with the Tea Party's we need to make sure there is a copy of the Constitution and Declaration of Indipendence so people can see what are forefathers intended 225+ years ago. 

Don't Tread On Me!

Patrick Obluck
11:49pm • #131
APR
03
137,362 Points 10 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor

George, we already pay DOUBLE income taxes... as both employer and employee... and only half of our income gets counted towards our social security!  This new proposed law adds insult to injury!  We already pay over 35% of our income in taxes, one way or another!

Join my new AR group and post your blog at http://activerain.com/groups/virtualoffice

Regina P. Brown

12:10am • #132
226,662 Points 1 Featured Post Outside Blog

Sounds like its a tax that would catch on nation wide if it got momentum.  I think states should just raise sales tax a couple cents per 1.00. 

12:21am • #133
8 Featured Posts

Wow, I'm really speechless over this. 

If the consumer knew that they'd be the one that had the tax passed onto them because we'd ultimately have to charge more for the same service to avoid taking a cut in pay, there would be public outrage. 

It's kind of like the whole "spread the wealth around"...

 

 

12:24am • #134

Lesson in Taxation

Each evening, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this.

The first four men -- the poorest -- would pay nothing. The fifth would pay $1: the sixth would pay $3; the seventh $7; the eighth $12, the ninth $18 and the tenth man -- the richest -- would pay $59. That's what they decided to do.

The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every evening and seemed quite happy with the arrangement -- until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes, so the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free.

But what about the other six -- the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?

The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being *paid* to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same tax formula, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59.

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth. "But he got $7!" "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!" "That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $7 back when I got only $2?

The wealthy get all the breaks!

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison.
"We didn't get anything at all."

The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. Something to think about.

They were $52 short!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college instructors,
IS HOW THE TAX SYSTEM WORKS.


The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore.

12:31am • #135

Great blog. A few have touched on it...and I'm not afraid to be blunt. Anyone and everyone that has voted Democrat for the last 6-8 years (minimum) IS DIRECTLY responsible for what is happening right now. I'm not particularly happy with the Republican party for that matter either - I'm actually appalled by most politicians these days. But anyone who is NOT a Democrat looks great right now.

The core foundation of this country is in serious trouble right now, and our survival is in serious question right now. There are massive, sweeping, AND UN-CONSTITUTIONAL changes being enacted on mere whims right now. We are witnessing the most massive and serious power grab this country has ever scene. We are actually witnessing a revolution in action, and so much of it goes against everything this country was built on...every reason this country has had the great success we've had in our 1st 200 hundred years.

Mike Rosenthal (Concise Investments LLC)
12:58am • #136
2 Featured Posts

George: Spurious legislation such as this is precisely why I have been a Sterling RPAC member for five years. RPAC fights for all REALTORS nationwide. Give today.

1:24am • #137
1 Featured Post

Ya haven't seen nothing yet.  This big debt that we continue to add too is going to have to get paid somehow.  It's called the redistribution of wealth.  Is that the same thing as socialism?

1:56am • #140
2 Featured Posts

George,

I kinda want to make sure everyone's on the same page here. You wrote:

"If this tax is enacted, upon the sale of a house Realtors will be taxed a 6% sales tax on their commission on top of the Federal and State Income Taxes that they are already paying.  The same would hold true for the Appraiser, Home Inspector, and so on down the line.  I don't know about you, but this is triple taxation to me, and highly questionable."

I read the bill...and I don't think that's what it's proposing at all.

They are not taxing the Realtor's commission whereby the Realtor winds up with 6% less. Rather, they want to enact a sales tax paid by the consumer...on all professional services. In other words, you would charge sales tax on your commission....and then remit it to the state. The tax would be paid by whomever is paying your commission...NOT BY YOU! You're simply sending that tax to the State upon collection.

Here's a simple example:

When you have car repairs done, the repair shop charges you a labor fee (non-taxed)...and itemizes the parts separately. You pay sales tax on the parts only...but not on the labor. The proposal in your state is to enact a bill where the labor charges would also be taxed. It creates an additional financial burden on the consumer, NOT the service providers.

It's not that far-fetched if you ask me. Every state in the union is looking for a way to bail themselves out of financial crisis and budget deficits never before seen in this country. This may  actually be a reasonable way for them to do it.

I'll give you an example in my business. Did you know that if I create a website for you, you owe me no sales tax?? It's all labor, and sales tax in California is not charged on labor. BUT....if I burn your website onto a CD and hand that to you, then you owe me sales tax on the entire cost of the website. How silly is that??? Likewise, if I create a business card layout for someone, they owe me NO SALES TAX on those charges. But if that design winds up as actual business cards, then sales tax is owed on the entire amount (layout fees, printing...and now shipping!!)

It's crazy.

But in Connecticut, sales taxes have not been collected when the pool man services your pool, or when the computer tech reformats your hard drive, or when the employment agency finds someone a job. They want to change that....and Realtors fall under the "service-providers" heading who may have to now start charging sales tax on their earnings.

If you earn $3,000, then the sales tax on that would be $180.00....charged to whoever paid your commission. You would then simply remit that money to the State.

But it wouldn't come out of your own pocket, and hence is not the triple taxation of a Realtor's commission you eluded to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Be careful everyone....this doesn't appear to be a random "extra hit" on Realtor's earnings. It's a sales tax paid by the consumer UPON those earnings....but not an additional debt coming out of the Realtor's pocket!

I hope everyone can sleep a little better now. LOL!

Definitely a stimulating topic however!!!

Dave 

2:06am • #141

Al of these high tax states have one thing in common - there are more people leaving them than coming to them. Some of them are in a bad downward spiral especially since the people leaving are the successful and the achievers who are tired of being vilified and punished for hard work...

4:50am • #142
134,367 Points

So Dave,  we would simply be an unpaid tax collector.

4:56am • #143

TEA PARTY .....APRIL 15th          Naples Florida 5-7 p.m.  Naples Bath and Tennis     RSVP

Have YOU organized yours?

Need I say more

5:27am • #144

This will become a common theme for awhile. We all must become watchdogs and do what we can to stop these kinds of actions. Thanks for the post.

5:31am • #145

George,

They just don't get it. Our current elected leaders forgot their history, if they ever knew it. Excessive taxation can lead to lots of things---from the collapse of an empire to revolt. And, whenever possible businesses will just pass it on to the consumer--so there's another nail in the coffin for buying a home. I hope your fellow Connecticutt REALTORS(r) are donating to RPAC, and emailing the legislators.

5:53am • #146

George, I'm afraid you ain't seen nothin yet.  People need to understand, there are consequences to their votes.  From the highest federal to the lowest in city or county.

 

Larry Bunch
6:01am • #147

If this does make it to a national level, I would suspect that the National Association Of Realtors would do a good job fighting it.  They are a very large and powerful lobby organization.  If your CT Realtor Association isn't involved, you should make sure they get on board in the fight.

6:09am • #148
Outrageous! Check out the National Tea Party website and do what you can to get involved on Tax Day - April 15!
Ginny Staib
6:13am • #149

This is just a tune being played as part of the tempo of our times: working people have too much money and non-working people have too little so let's take from the workers and give to the non-workers.

Anyone who voted for Obama and his crew should be familiar with this theme and try to restrain themselves from being upset. It's what they wanted from the Democrats and now they're getting it. Once the theme's been developed from the top of our national parties then it's easy to see how it filters down to the lower levels.

Remember how Bush got blamed for everything? Now it's time to blame Obama, even for higher state taxes. Connecticut legislators are just listening to the wind and the wind is saying "change".

 

Peter A. Lake
6:20am • #150
140,267 Points 1 Featured Post Outside Blog

George - David is correct. A real estate brokerage would be required to collect the tax and forward it to the state. It would not be an additional sales tax on commissions earned.

However this would greatly increase the cost of buying or selling a home during a time in which the housing market is suffering a great economic downturn and homeowners have lost thousands in home equity. This is a blow to consumers everywhere.

 

6:23am • #151

If these "law-makers" were catergorized into one of these "Professional Services" they might look at it differently.

It is an outrage that these so called public servants, get paid way too much for causing way to many problems and not solving near enough. Maybe we the people should take back this country from the politicians. If they were paid more like the people they represent and treated like the people they represent then maybe they would take better care of the people they represent.

6:34am • #152
403,898 Points 72 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Mortgage George...

Do they really not understand that in the end The Consumer will be paying the tax? That is the way it will unfold. It will just be a recycled tax and cause even more hardship.

TLW...ROAR!

6:47am • #153
133,909 Points 4 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor

Why don't they spent the time and effort going after the criminals that cause this economic meltdown and hence the need for more taxes?  They took billions from the system at the expense of little guy.

Oh no....  Let's go after the little guy they don't have the means to fight back, because they are busy trying to survive.  We can blame them for the problems and all the sheep (in this country) will believe it and go along with the BS.

Not to mention these so called public servants are getting their pay raises (for failing) and no one is mad about that.....  Well I am!

6:54am • #154
So, my question is how is it fair that a non-represented seller would NOT have to pay tax on the sale of his home????
6:56am • #155
Hit Router

Whatever happened to lead with revenue?  Maybe Gary should run for office?  I would not be surprised to see all agents/ workers/ business owners etc quit.  We already work until July or August just to pay taxes.  Why would we even come in if we have to work until November until we get to keep some coin?  I could work at MC D and keep more of the money and work less.  Not going to be worth working to make 1/4 million if you keep 20 K!

7:18am • #156

George

Here's the thing, I did not vote for the power hungry leadership and the trickle down ideas that exist in our governement today.

While it is true we can vote again to remove the leaders a few years from now, they can do alot of damage in those years.

I plan to attend a tea party on April 15.  Perhaps if we all were to do this, the politicians will get the clue that their days are numbered.

 

Rita Brumley - Keller Williams Dublin Ohio
7:34am • #157
Outside Blog Hit Router

Another run by politicians for more power. Control of more money equals more power. Keep in mind those that think "it's not in my state so I don't care", if it passes in Conn. you WILL see it in a State near you............YOUR OWN.

7:34am • #158

Dave needs to check the facts. Parts and labor aretaxable items in CT. Have your car fixed at my garage and my husband is obliged to collect sales tax for the sate of CT. What makes it acceptable that the home buyer or seller be additionally burdened for these services or that the Professional service provider be forced into the subservient position of unpaid tax collector for the state? What else can the t of CT do to further destroy the already struggling real estate market?They want to add a tax, have already increased the conveyance tax (with the promise of sunset which is laughable at best) and they want to remove the deduction of the mortgage interest when figuring your tax liability on the sate and federal level. It might appear to the public that home ownership may not be a wise investment at all. So the real estate market ( the golden goose) would be dead and the state will just have to look for other ways to get into our pockets. My bet is that they will come up with more creative ways to get what they need without taking responsibility for running a balanced budget.

I remember how they sold us the state income tax..it was temporary. I remember how they sold us lottery and gambling...it was supposed to go directly into our school funding. (not the general fund)I remember how they sold us the temporary conveyance tax which was due to sunset but still shines on and on.

When I asked Cathy Abercrombie (CT State Rep) to defeat the tax and let it sunset as promised she replied that was impossible because the towns in the state now depended on that income. I then asked her to consider a revolutionary concept. Why not demand the state and the towns abide by their budget. That is how I run my household and we are pretty successful using this technique. If we don't have the money to do something we don't do it.  If we don't have enough money to make ends meet we either cut expenses or find another job to EARN the money. The private sector does not have the option to go to our neighbors and demand a portion of their income to supplement their short comings.

 

7:34am • #159

UGH!!  I agree Connecticut has relied too long and too heavily on property values and taxes to support the government.  Now they want to triple tax "professional services"  surely with the money we send to the people who represent Realtors both locally and on the National level they should be able to stop this.  If it passes in Connecticut, other states will use us as a role model for ways to pull blood out of a stone! 

7:48am • #160

George

They tried to pass a tax on services here in Michigan a few years back and it failed. I'm waiting for it to resurface here in our current bad economy.

7:54am • #161

I just wanted to address Linda's comment. I live in Tennessee and we do not have this tax. If you are being taxed on your commission then it must be a tax your city or county has imposed but it's definitely not statewide. All I pay are federal taxes(TN doesn't have a state tax). As for Connecticut trying to pass this bill is something for concern for everyone in the country. Usually when one state gets something like this passed, it's not long before other states try to follow. I will be watching this with interest and hoping it doesn't get passed.

7:56am • #162

The senators and congressmen make more money than most Realtors - maybe they should be taxed an additional 6% to help pay for all of the spending they want to do?  Maybe they'd think twice before passing some of these bills.

8:07am • #163

Our legislature tried to tax professional services in Florida a number of years ago.  It was later repealed because the "Lawyers" were included in the definition of "Professional Services" and they have a great lobby in Tallahassee.  Could it be that a lot of the politicians are also lawyers?  Wouldn't that be a coincidence?

John Ferguson
8:10am • #164

Arkansas has tried this the past two Legislation sessions and we (ARPAC Arkansas Political Action Committee) was able to get it defeated. 

8:25am • #165

George, I know your not shocked by this. The new administration thinks your rich and has to have some way of paying back their bailouts and spending. Only 3 years and 9 months more of this. Would I still have to pay this tax if I was UNprofessional in my transactions?

David Glasier
8:26am • #166
Localism Sponsor

Its WRONG WRONG WRONG.  I hope your state board fights, and rally's all agents and industries to band together to fight this one.  Another reason, why you should make your RPAC contributions. 

 

8:26am • #167

I practice real estate in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Every sale on a home has a tax charge on the commission called a Goods and Service Tax (GST) on the commission. That tax is 5%.

On July 1, 2010 we will have a Harmonized Tax (HST) come into effect which is a combination of the Provincial Sales Tax (PST) of 8% and the GST (5%) =13% This not only effects the tax on commission whcih did not have the PST tax, but will be added on to new home sales over $400,000. Harmonization of the PST and GST would add a whopping $46,676 to the cost of a new home in Toronto and about half that amount to homes outside the city.

Items as hair cuts and gym memberships which did not have PST will now be effected. Ontario residents will have to pay more to travel by air, rail or taxi. These are just a few of the areas of our lives that are going to have this extra burden.

We as tax payers tried to fight this, but to no avail. The Politicans have a bee in their bonnet and they usually win, despite election promises that they say they would never do this.

The City of Toronto is going to impose a 4% property tax hike as well. That was just voted in this week, despite the outcries of the taxpayers.

8:39am • #168

It's hard to get ahead these days. It's even hard to just survive without more to worry about.

Randi Steckler
8:43am • #169

Thanks to the MORONS who voted for barry the Socialist, we got what you voted for!   On the other hand, those of us who had commonsense, did not vote for barry the Socialist, are going to suffer the same fate as you!   It was Very evident in his conversation with Joe the plumber when he got caught off guard and didn';t have his "crutch" the teleprompter, he revealed himself for what he "really" is, a Socialist!!    Dodd, Frank and barry Caused the MESS we are now in, as anybody in real estate knows!   Slick n hil pressured the mortgage companies to give mortgages to those who in no way should have qualified, just to get votes!   We need to Wake up, before it's too late and we are ALL owned by barry's Socialistic machine!!!

FLOOD Washington with tea bags, attend Tea parties in your area, or our days as a free country will be no more!!   We owe that to our families and our country!

eugene
8:47am • #170
106,758 Points 3 Featured Posts

That is ridiculous George....I hope this proposed tax bill does not pass. The government makes it so difficult for those who are self employed already.  I also have to agree with Jim's comment above.

8:49am • #171

FYI,  In South Dakota we have been paying a state 'Professional Services' tax of 4% plus a city tax (rates vary, Rapid City is another 2%) since I have been in the business (17+ years).  On the plus side, we have no state income tax.  It is difficult to explain to sellers that not only do they get to pay a state transfer tax on the sale of their home (0.1% of slae price, but they also get to pay the sales tax on my fee.  Some consumers understand it, others don't.  Oh, BPO and REO companies typicaly refuse to pay the sale tax, regardless of what our laws say...

8:58am • #172

Stop spending and lower taxes and the gov't we end up with more money. 

9:10am • #173

Next time when you have a chance to vote, think first, before you elect socialists.

Read some books about  european history and discover what socialists and communists will do .They won't rest till everybody is equally poor, exept a few "special"people . Everything that comes up as the new "political gospel" is written in history.

 

 

 

9:10am • #174

I hope Connecticut's Assoc of REALTORS® is helping to stop this.  If this passes there, it will pass everywhere.  We pay a lot of money to our Assoc to fight for our causes.

Sandra Newman
9:14am • #175
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

I will try to come back a respond to everyone later today, I have to be at a Homebuyer seminar all day, so it will be late before I do that, but I did want to respond to Dave Daniels.

Dave thank you for your response, and I understand what you are saying and if I was reading the Bill on my own, I could easily come away with that same interpretation, but after hearing it explained by both those who have been following and lobbing against it at the Capitol, as well as the State Reps and Senators that spoke about, it is not what it appears to be.  The way it was explained by all those present, was that it is an additional tax on the person providing the service.  One State Rep even stated that if it were to pass they do not have a clue how they would go about collecting it.  So how it seemingly reads and what they are attempting to make it, does not seem to match.

9:15am • #176
1 Featured Post Outside Blog

George - this is outrageous! How many times the fed can punish success? Shortly there will not be any incentive for ambition and achievement. How many times the taxed money can be taxed over and over again?

There is so much discontent and outrage all over the country about our 'leaders' who know only one way to get the budget balanced!!!! It is sick and I am pretty sure that the people will make a huge change in politics as usual in the next year and a half...

Keep an eye on 'them' ...with smiles,

Bo

9:32am • #177

North Carolina considered this tax a few years ago. As soon as it was pointed out that attorney fees are professional services fees as well, the idea died. It was just too obvious to tax everyone else's professional services fees, and exempt attorneys. 

Good luck fighting the battle.  This is one of the most unfair taxes ever devised.

Marty Jones, CRS, CRB

9:33am • #178

George, it is just another thing that we have to face as taxpayers, not just people in the real estate business.  The government is taking our money that we earned, and basically giving it to someone else.  I have closed my mortgage company not because I couldn't make money, but because the state wanted thousands more in dollars just to keep my license, while handing banks billions.  My real estate "privilege" tax of $50.00 per year allows the state to collect about a 4 million in additional revenue, and the office of the commissioner of real estate is growing so it will be more soon.  I look at the budgets of our state and federal governments and see that over half go to depts. which hand it to people who pay little or no taxes.  We support as Realtors "affordable housing"  That also means that we are supporting billions of tax dollars going to renters, utility bills, child care, health care,etc. for people who made bad decisions about staying in school, having multiple births (and not being able to pay for them), drug use, etc.  

Most of my peers think I am stupid to be saying this kind of stuff.  But if not me, who?

Dale Terry
9:35am • #179
Outside Blog

Wow...as if it's not tough enough for those who are self employed.  I really hope this bill does not pass.  This could start an avalanche cascading into other states....

9:37am • #180

They have been trying to introduce a sales tax on services in Utah for a while now, luckily its failed so far.

9:46am • #181

By raisng our fees to consumers to compensate for an additional tax we would be giving consumers another reason not to use our services.  Plus if we all increase our fees to cover the added tax the FTC may come after us on a charge of price fixing.

Good luck on getting goverment to make cutbacks like the rest of us.  Especially since we are now witnessing the largest expansion of govermnent in history.

9:51am • #182

You are RIGHT ON Dale and Socialist barry wants MUCH MORE of that!   Like Bo said, the aim is to take away any ambition or desire for achievment from us and to become complacent compliant slaves of  barry's Socialistic country!

eugene
10:04am • #183

Shocking how our governoment coninues to seek out ways to tax us rather than cutting back expenses and governement waist. Wake up America, we need to get rid of these jokers who refuse to live with in their means, make your vote count.   

Jill Nelson
10:10am • #184

George, You and all Realtors in your state need to fight this. Tax is a cancer, once it is in one state it will quickly spread to others. There has NEVER been a tax a politition didn't love. We had a similar proposal in Michigan a few years back. Thank God our realtors rallied to the cause and forced our legislators to vote down that bill. Goog luck to you & keep us posted.

Jim Kaschalk
10:12am • #185

Philadelphia has a similar tax on all professional services and it is the reason why many leave the area.

10:18am • #186

I have just read 181 comments on an issue that will gravely affect our income. 

Most comments are ""scary" ""not fair"" outrageous" etc.  We can blog, respond to blogs, and talk about these issues from now until eternity but without ACTION all of it is in vain.

I saw a few posts about the upcoming tea parties, but not near enough.  PEOPLE REMEMBER . . . this is OUR country!!!  Get off you duff and let our government know our displeasure.  I don't care if you are Democrat or Republican ANYONE with a calculator can do the math and it doesn't add up.  (Well yes it does and it keeps adding and adding and adding).  We earn our money and we deserve to keep it.  The government cannot and will not do anything bipartisanly.  It is time we the people showed them how.  It is time we the people got together to send a message.

Please block out April 15 to attend a tea party!  Let government know we are TAXED way too excessivey!! 

Go to www.taxdayteaparty.com and find out where they are and please ATTEND!!!

Thank you.

Marcy Spieker, Seattle WA

 

 

 

Marcy Spieker
10:23am • #187

You certainly seem to have touched on a nerve here. As many have pointed out, government needs to learn to live on a budget instead of raising taxes willy-nilly.

10:29am • #188
1 Featured Post

George, I too was at the Realtors Day at the Capitol. Our state is taxing us out of existence. A 6% sales tax on top of income and self employement taxes can be the deathnell for many businesses. Legislators somehow assume we can pass this cost on, but we know better. We are finally seeing some 3% co-brokes again, after years of 2.5% and much less. We need to strongly oppose this tax increase, if we are ever going to work our way out of this recession. Good post. Millie

10:43am • #189
2 Featured Posts

Kathy,

I stand corrected on the auto services tax example. I was using California's tax laws in that illustration, and took for granted that Connecticut's laws were similar to ours (I thought maybe auto repair services were part of the new group of service-provider taxes, but it appears they've been charging sales tax on auto repair for a long time in your state!) Sorry for that confusion.

George,

After reading your follow-up comment, I went back and re-read the bill. I can't imagine how there's any confusion. It appears in the written bill that there have been MANY professional service providers in your state who have never charged sales tax on their services. HB6349 wants to amend that. They now want those service-providers to charge sales tax on their fees, from attorneys, to engineers, to insurance brokerages...and yes, Realtors.

No matter how the message is coming across (even by those lobbying against it)...the legislation or law can't be changed by someone's misinterpretation. The bill itself seems very clear. Many of Connecticut's professional service businesses have never had to charge sales tax on the services they provide...and the state now wants to collect sales tax on those services.

For Realtors, it means transacting business differently than in the past. On your seller's net sheet (presuming the seller is paying the commission)...there will now likely be a line that says:

Gross Commission: $3,870
Sales Tax @ 6%: 232.20

Total Commission: $4,102.20


What makes all of this crazy in the real estate business is...how many of the fees in a real estate transaction will fall under the new law?? YIKES!! You already mentioned appraisers and home inspections. But what about all the rest??

Title Insurance
Escrow Fees
Home Warranties
Loan Origination Fees
Underwriter Review Fees
Document Preparation Fees
Termite Company Fees
Home Staging Fees

Etc., etc., etc.

Wow...can you imagine?? A sales tax on a title policy??? It will increase the cost to buyers and sellers dramatically...and will result in an accounting nightmare. I think that's what they meant by it being difficult to collect. You'll have a termite company owner who's never charged or remitted sales tax, now having to file sales and use tax forms.

Nonetheless...it definitely does not appear to be an additional tax charged to the Realtor on their commissions. It's charged to the consumer like all sales tax...and passed along to the state.

Still an accounting nightmare though!!

Dave

10:52am • #190
Localism Sponsor

You forgot to add that we pay our own self employment tax already.  Here in Tn, we pay a state tax out of our commissions that we receive.  It is classified as a state business tax.  Then we pay self employment taxes, our expenses of running our own business, a fee to our broker, federal taxes, and they want more?  That is ridiculous.  Our government is so out of hand in its spending and taxing.  There is so little left after everyone takes their share now.  It seems to me that we are starting to live in more of a socialist country than a democratic one.  Everything is decided for me including where 1/2 of my money goes by the government.  I work long weekends, nights and all week so that I can pay for someone to  live on welfare or not work. What is democratic about that.  I am a very charitable person and give alot of what I make away, but shouldn't it be more about my choice?  Our government is so disorganized and so large that they can't possibly control or manage the amount of money that they are giving away.  They need to shrink and give more power back locally.  Common Sense.... The people of this country have a lot more than our government does.

11:08am • #191
5 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor

They want you to believe that a business owner like 'Joe the Plumber' is rich and therefore he should pay his 'fair share'. Well that is great unless you happen to be the business owner.

 

---

 

Joe is neither a plumber, a business owner, or named Joe. He certainly was not rich at the time he bacame known to us. He has asome sort of book deal now, I hear.

I am curious how the States will rule... certainly taxing things that are already taxed is redundant, and should be stopped, but I cfan also understand that many of these states have committments to services that are long standing, and that require to be continued. Many states are going bust, and there is little cost cutting possible in many states: RI for example must upkeep its roadways, generally state funded, must maintain unemployment insurance, some schools, etc., and personally, I prefer to see class warfare managed to the benefit of the have nots, rather than to the benefit of those capable of handling their own issues.

11:14am • #192
193,283 Points 2 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Here's info on the American Tax Day Tea Party - check out your state for info on the right hand side.  Hope you don't mind George that I put in the information.  I'm sick & tired of this and we've had 2 of these so far in Illinois and hopefully can generate more people to get out and protest this nonsense!

Nothing will ever change if you don't get involved!

11:18am • #193

Thank you for this great info.  I have not heard anything about this in my state, but as I read some of the other responses, if they can get it there they will probably start trying it everywhere.  I am already having a hard time making it as it is.  You keep hearing about everyone losing their jobs and homeowners losing their homes but you never hear about how bad this has impacted realtors.  I'm sure alot of people that were in the mortgage fields have lost their jobs also.  I am just really surprised that more people have not quit selling real estate and this tax unless the seller is willing to pay it is just another thing the realtor will have to pay.  I hate even asking my clients to pay the fees that my company charges upfront as it is.

11:19am • #194
166,880 Points 15 Featured Posts Outside Blog

As many others have said, the Government needs to practice what they preach. When your budget goes down, you need to find ways to spend less. Cut some of the ridiculous programs and enforcements that stifle productivity and innovation. The way they are spending, you KNOW they will need to raise taxes to take care of it. Whose money are they UNILATERALLY spending anyway?

Your's.

Mine.

Our children's.

Their childrens'.

How many generations deep have they spent now?

It will make us all slaves. If not to our own government, to some other country's to which we owe money.

You just can't spend money like this without fixing the problems.

This type of thinking will come around to haunt all of us.

Think harder about who you are electing next time. Think very hard before you re-elect anyone who has been serving multiple upon multiple terms. Too much opportunity for corruption with that kind of time in office.

11:25am • #195
180,955 Points 1 Featured Post Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

Mark,

You wanted to know why we were not going after the crooks.  Well the two key crooks are Barney Frank and Chris Dodd.  There are a lot of guilty people for the melt down on both sides of the isle.  Realtors made good money on the run up, even if we didn't plan the mess.  Some of the key criminals are Barry's economic team. 

I do not mind government doing things that need to be done, but they always cut the meat and leave the fat in order to punish the voters if we do not go for the tax increases.  Little children will be marched in front of cameras with the mantra that they are the future and they are not getting what they need!  What most of them need are two parent households, not more government spending.  They need to have thier video games taken away and told to play with a real baseball. 

Then government will say they do not have money to keep violent criminals in jail and put them on probabtion to kill cops and rape children (see Oakland).  Never-the-less politicians and ex politicians will find ways to keep linning the pockets.  In California we have term limits, yet you would be hard pressed to find a termed out politician who is not making 6 figures in a government job or as a lobbyist. 

Can anyone name a politician that has not made a fortune since taking office? 

TEA PARTY TIME!!!!!

11:27am • #196

If somehting like this was put in place, real estate agents, appraisers & everyone involved would have to do what other business owners do, charge sales tax on top of their commissions.  No one should expect professionals in an economic downturn to eat an extra tax.  This is just a real bad idea, it would make the consumer pay more, & guess who they would not vote for next time.

Craig
11:32am • #197

And there's still the discussion of eliminating the interest deduction for mortgage holders. Enough is enough!  Not only are they cutting into our declining income, but they are discouraging buyer's from wanting to own.  I wonder when they will think about taxing the $8,000 first time buyer tax credit.

12:03pm • #198
231,169 Points 9 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

Our local and national government is so out of control I can't even put it into words.  How they could tax people struggling to get by is beyond me....... We have this....and now a tax on coal proposed....and....a 12.5% added tax on those making over $100k. There is but so far Americans will be pushed before this gets really nasty.  I wish every politician would take a business class 101 that says when the market goes down, cut costs and streamline, as your prices will have to drop.  They increase costs and increase prices during a downturn or upturn or any turn.  It is completely out of control.  Thankfully I am in a fiscally conservative state that understands cost cutting and only has legislatures meet for a half of a year....and pays them pennies........

12:08pm • #199

Now now everyone remember, Joe Biden said "paying taxes is patriotic"...LOL

Gene

12:30pm • #200
279,676 Points 5 Featured Posts Outside Blog

George... This is insane.  I agree with you, why work?  Why don't we all collect unemployment.  We now have a president in office that is looking to help the unemployed, I say, "let's join them". 

In the mean time, getting the word out is very crucial.  Let me know if you hear of forms, or numbers or other means to veto this.

valerie osterhoudt

12:34pm • #201
174,304 Points 1 Featured Post

You don't pay sales tax on your commissions???  It's a long established practice in Hawaii where we pay 4% sales tax anytime money exchanges hands be it commissions, legal bills, doctor bills, or whatever.  Now that doesn't mean I like it at all (I hate it) but unfortunately the tax is more established than you are aware.  If we collect the sales tax from our customers, then we must also pay 4% tax on the amount collected (a tax on the tax).  It's called an "excise tax" here but it's what most would call a sales tax. 

12:38pm • #202

That's brilliant!  Tax an industry that is already getting killed.

12:55pm • #203
3 Featured Posts

As Realtors and agents, we are supposed to be active in the political arena to help protect our clients, and our businesses.  OUr government has given themselves unlimited spending authority without asking the people.  They have put fear into our hearts, and so many are just going to let them do what they want and hope that it makes it better.  I have also cut my budget.  We are living on a shoestring to keep our emergency fund funded.  We are cutting back.  But what does our government do?  They take our hard earned money and give it away to special projects and interest groups, and spend it at the top levels of companies that are failing.  This isn't going to work.  We need to be more vocal to our representatives, who aren't doing what we want or need, they're doing what they want.  So many citizens are not standing up for their rights, and if we don't stand up to our government, they are just going to continue down this path that is going to get worse and worse.  Another tax on small businesses?  Are they kidding? SMall businesses are going out left and right. I don't see a bailout for them.  No, the millionnaires that are running this country into the ground are getting bailed out.  They are getting golden parachutes that guarantee that they will never have to worry about money ever again for GENERATIONS.  BUt each of our generations is just barely hanging on. DOES THAT MAKE ANY FREAKING SENSE TO ANYONE ELSE OUT THERE?

2:10pm • #204

Hey George,

I know how you feel. I live in California and we are constantly ripped off as well. However, as a country we have put ourselves in this mess by who we have elected into office not only on the State level but on the Federal level as well. There is one political party who's sole focus is to raise taxes. Now I will not name that party but let me leave one simple clue as to who they are. They currently run the Whitehouse, The Senate, and The House. Keep up the fight and let us know what happens. Because if this passes in connecticut it will not stop there!

 

Matthew A. Bartlett
2:48pm • #205
Localism Sponsor

I think we are headed towards a significant backlash against the government in our country. I sincerely support the idea of a constitutional convention to get us back on track with taxes, states rights, etc. Unfortunately, I don't think that people in general are angry or informed enough yet to demand it. The apathy that exists in these United States is abhorring. Most people do not give much thought to ideas or problems that they feel they are powerless to change, government being the most obvious. People would rather think about things that they perceive as within their own control. I like the tea party idea but I don't know that it is getting enough attention or that people really get how similiar the situations are to the reason for our revolution in the late 1700's.

3:02pm • #206
244,780 Points 3 Featured Posts Outside Blog

George,

It's understandable that states need revenue to operate, but multiple taxation for any profession is just plain wrong. Just like you explain here. It could also involve mortgage pros once they define the Professional Services. Don't like it at all.

3:16pm • #207
12 Featured Posts

You just wonder how much any and all of you that voted and have continued to vote for taxation without representation are willing to take. There is no excuse for any of what is going on. 

Did any of you believe that some line about "hope and change" was going to change the Political system. These people suck, they are slime and career liars and swindlers. If there is any organization that needs to be fired it is the Federal Government...the 545's, every single one of them.

I cant believe it takes a tax on broker commissions to get people to take the blinders off. I always thought Kool Aid was for kids...maybe not.

It has just begun fellow citiziens.

4:29pm • #208
12 Featured Posts

I will say, a great post to get lots of comments :>)

4:30pm • #209

George, Well just reading all the comments I can safely say you definitely hit a RAW nerve. The professional services tax you wrote about is very similar to a sales tax and will be borne by ALL consumers of professional services. Your state REALTOR organization should look into forming an alliance with other professional groups to defeat this tax. Government needs to be more accountable for the money they spend and not just look to tax hikes and inventing new things to tax when they fall short in the budget. Last year, June 2008, there was a short lived discussion at the state level (CA) of collecting income tax on all independent contractors at the rate of 33% at the time the money is earned. Then hopefully you would get some refund back when you did your taxes at the end of year. But that is giving the state your money to use interest free and hoping you get it back!! Now that is insane!

5:19pm • #210

I'm surpised California didn't think of this first!

Get out there and vote these idiots out of office!

6:08pm • #211

My regrets for not yet reading all the posts.

But, here's a quick thought ... if this passes, I can foresee listing agents quickly being forced to drop the buyer agent (pre-negotiated) fee.

In other words, if you charge 5% and split it with a buyer agent, the new contracts will read 2.5% and the buyer agent will need to negotiate his/ her fee with the buyer.  This would reduce the fee from the seller, the tax from the seller and distribute to the buyer.

Alternatively, listing commissions could drop ... this cannot happen!

Scary proposal,

Mike

6:12pm • #212

George

I hope your Real Estate lobbiest are on the ball on this and I hope you are supporting them.  We keep electing these bozo's and then get upset when bs like this happens.  It is so important for realtors to be active in the political process.  We have similiar problems in Tx but we have a good lobbiest group that we support.  they have saved us thousands of $$$$'s by there lobbying against bad legislation.

Good luck and hopefully you can defeat that tax bill.  In my naive days (which I still suffer from occasionaly) I kept thinking double taxation is illegal.  But there are a lot of examples that it isn't. 

Hang in there

Gary Ytreeide
Broker Assoc.
Coldwell Banker Ron Brown
Rockport, Tx

7:15pm • #213

I truly am not surprised. In Nevada, we don't have income tax (yet....) and along with most states in the nation, are in a budget crunch. While there have been some "hints" about possibly having an income tax system, I think the politicians might just get lynched if they tried it. Therefore, they have to come up with everything they can think of to raise some income.

When I began my real estate career, NV already had the "transfer tax", which is effectively sales tax, on homes when sold that was $1.65/$1000 of sales price but 4 years ago it got raised to $4.10/$1000. For the past two legislative sessions (ours are every 2 years) there have been attempts to raise them even more. They were also trying to find some way to tax Realtors and came up with us having to pay $100/year for a state business lecense,which has nothing to do with our real estate license fees.

We have a pretty good PAC that labors to keep things in check. Of course - they are funded by the Realtors on a voluntary basis and are not tax deductible, so some Realtor's don't see a need to fund the PAC. Luckily that is a minority of them because without the PAC, we would be a lot worse off! If you don't have one in Connecticut -you should look into getting one!

Lyndi Newbry
7:58pm • #214
5 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor

George.........

This is fantastic post........... and I would like to do a BlogTalkRadio show and discuss this with you on there......

 

Are you up for it?

Please........ let me know.

 

Respectfully.

Fran

8:49pm • #215
229,664 Points 2 Featured Posts

George,

WOW! 215 comments.  And this is a great article.  In Missouri, they have/are trying this.  This is another reason to join RPAC.  They support us and the issues that come up with the government on ALL levels.

Ann Hayden in Wildwood, Missouri

9:13pm • #216
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Sharron thank you for the offer.

Kim, I guess one is not enough.

Patrick those are excellent points.

Regina, I guess 35% is not enough.

Chuck, yes it is the type of thing that could catch on quickly.

9:36pm • #217
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Julie, they seem to think about he now and forget about the future affect.

Dennis that was excellent.  I am going to copy it and pass it out to a few people I know.  Thank you!!!

Mike everyone seems to remember that we have had a Republican President the last 8 years, but some how they forget that we have had a Democrat House & Senate for several of those years, and it is there that the laws are past and where the spending comes from.

Matt, RPAC does a lot around here as well.

Mike thank you.

9:48pm • #218
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Jeff & Jane it sounds like it to me.

Robin you are so right.

Kenneth ..... LOL

Lynn, no but maybe we should.

Craig, thank you.

9:54pm • #219
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Melanie, I am sure that they are.

Larry voting is a right that we need to take seriously, and not just blind party loyalty.

Matthew, they are on board.

Ginny thank you for the info.

Sandra, see my response to Dave above. This was not explained that way in Hartford by all those who have been following this, or the State Rep's and Senators that were there.  Remember how the Seller Conveyance Tax was written.  Money was suppose to go to fixing our infrastructure, and then the tax would sunset I believe it was three years later. Well is what happened anything like the Bill was written?

10:02pm • #220
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Peter, that is a fair point.

Greg, nice thought, but we both know the likely hood of that happening.

TLW, you are absolutely correct.  By the way it is great to have you back blogging and commenting.  All those prayers were answered, and now we need to pray that was the end of the surgeries :) :)

Mark I am too!!!

Earleene, Good question.

10:11pm • #221
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Marcus, somehow I think they have failed to realize that.

Rita, good point.

Scott, I forget who said it, but it went something like this, today they come after me, but tomorrow the may come after you.  Hope you get the point :)

Kathy, I can imagine what her answer was.

Donna you are right, it will not stop here.

10:21pm • #222
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Terry if they tried it once they will try again.

Kristy when one passes it then they all want a piece of the pie.

David & Lisa, what they feel is fair for us is not what they feel is fair for them.

John, it just so happens that a lot of the politicians here in CT do happen to be lawyers.

Larry I hope we do the same.

10:26pm • #223
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

David, I am looking for a shorter time then that, which is when my State Legislators come up for election again.

Shiela, you are right.

Diane, you guys will be paying more in taxes then you keep.  That is just wrong.

Randi they are even making the surviving hard to do.

Eugene, Dodd is in big trouble this next election.

10:34pm • #224
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Patricia, they are trying to take it from difficult to impossible.

Randy we would end up with both an Income Tax and this tax on commissions.

Mike now there is an idea I like :)

Everard, I did not vote for them before and I certainly like not vote for them now.

Sandra, you are right it will be like a snow ball.

10:41pm • #225
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Bo I hope you are right.

Marty maybe we need to make sure that Attorney's are include, that way we will not see it again either.

Dale, good point, if not us then who?

Justin It certainly could.

Trela, I hope it fails here as well.

10:48pm • #226

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eugene
10:51pm • #227
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Lucian, and the end of government growth is no where in sight.

Jill we need to vote and take our vote seriously.

Jim a cancer is a good way of putting it.

Susan I would not be surprised if it had a similar effect here if it passes.

Marcy, you are absolutely right, mouthing off without action does not accomplish anything.

10:55pm • #228

Official Tax Day TEA Party, April 15th, 2009

Click on above to find out  Tea Party locations across the USA!!   Do WHATEVER you have to, to be there!   It is our chance to TAKE BACK and SAVE our country and families before barry and his cronies Destroy it!! 

eugene
10:58pm • #229
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Tim I hope I have touched more than a nerve, and that it causes people to act.

Millie, I couldn't agree more.

Dave I guess we are not going to agree on this.  And if you think that just because the Bill seems to read that way that they cannot change it to be what we know it to be, then you have not been paying close attention to what happens to much of the Legislation that passes. Also even if you were correct a tax on all those services would be such a payment shock throughout this Industry that home purchases would become unaffordable for many.  Many of those cost are up front cost, many are part of the Closing Costs, this is money that Buyers have to have.  If they have a hard time even coming up with a downpayment, how in the world wout they be able to come up with those additional cost, which would make the downpayment seen like nothing. You might think they are fair, I don't, and don't feel that anyone should have to pay them. Again this is only if you are right in you interpretation of the Bill.

Maria, the more they take the less we have to give to those that we feel are in need.  They don't seem to grasp that concept.

Paul I do not have any problem paying for Roads and Schools and things of that nature but I do have a big problem paying for duplication of services and a lot of political favors with my tax money.  Get rid of those things and we will have a surplus again.

11:18pm • #230
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Lyn I do not have any problem with you doing that.  Thank you for providing it.

Norma, it will certainly make it more dificult on eveyone in the Industry as well as Buyers and Sellers.

Ben, unfortunately they treat our money as if it does not belong to us, and that they have the right to do with it as they want.

Gene that is the way they play the game.

Craig, it is not just a bad idea, it is a reaaaaaaaaal bad idea :)

11:28pm • #231
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Warren I would not be surprised if they did not think about doing that already.

Tim it would be nice if other States followed the same pattern.

Gene, I wonder how patriotic he would feel if he could not feed his family, and his buddies were still trying to take more money out of his pocket.

Valerie, I have a couple of lists I will try to stop by next week with them.

Richard a few others from Hawaii have also made similar comments. Sorry you guys have that, but forgive me if we do not want the same :)

11:36pm • #232
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Michael, yep all that is left is to bury it.

Amy they bank on people feeling that they can't do anything about it, well they are wrong we can do something about it.

Matthew they control everything and they are still trying to pass the buck, or is that taking the buck:)

Kevin They bank on us feeling powerless, but we need to prove them wrong.

Esko, yep I don't like it one bit either.

11:44pm • #233
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Mark I agree we need to stop it before it goes any further.

Kathie, YA giving some of it back. Did they try to sell them swamp land in Florida too :)

Peter, beating California to this is not something that I am proud of.

Mike, scary proposal is right.

Gary, they keep on getting voted in because everyone thinks their Bozo is the exception, well he isn't and needs to go.

11:54pm • #234
APR
04
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Lyndi, We didn't have a State Income Tax in Connecticut either until the late 80's, and even thousands march on the Capitol they still passed it, and worst yet none of them got voted out.

Fran call me and we will talk about it.

Ann we have to stop this where ever they are trying to pass it.  Each State that it passes just makes it that much easier for the next to pass it also.

Eugene, I hope the people in Michigan use those numbers, and that everyone uses the link.

12:03am • #235

This would be funny if it were a joke...  Someone should tell the lawyers, and the accountants and the insurance brokers and so on ....    because they'll be paying it too...  This concept is more than slightly looney.  Every government sector is looking for pockets to pull money from.  If they keep it up, all the pockets will be empty and no one will want to work...let alone be able to find work... and THEN WHAT WILL THEY DO?  

The way to generate revenue for government is for our states and country to be competitive in the world market and for people to be happy and productive... 

Taxing more and more and more just isn't going to do that.

If your state association has a call to action mechanisim, you need to get it fired up!

12:10am • #236
596,624 Points 111 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog

WooooHooooo...you got to them all...I'm proud of ya!

12:32am • #237
2 Featured Posts

George,

Here is an excerpt form a Connecticut Bar Association member who is actively protesting the proposed tax on professional services. He is an attorney and the article is dated a week ago. Notice that he states in his text that it will be a tax paid by the consumer, NOT by lawyers.

Here is the text:

"Currently, legal services are exempt from the sales tax. This bill would now tax legal services. As a group, we lawyers are not the most popular profession. Why should you care if we are subject to another tax? Simple -- it is a tax on you, the consumers of legal services, not the lawyers themselves. When you buy a television or a car you, not the merchant, pays the sales tax. It would be no different with legal services."

Here's another definition of the bill from Rep. Sean Williams (Connecticut) website:

"HB 6349, An act concerning the sales tax on services, which would make professional, insurance, occupational or personal service transactions subject to the sales tax. Those services are currently not taxed."

*************************************

George, this is not an added tax on your commissions that you have to pay to the state. It's a sales tax ON your commissions which is paid by whomever is paying the commission. Yes, it will increase the cost of buying or selling a home. But it's not completely outrageous.

On a $130,000 sale, the total amount of sales tax might look something like this:

6% commission (as an example only):  $7,800.00
Home Inspection Fee: $350.00
Appraisal Fee: $400.00
Other Misc. Taxable Services: $1,000.00

Total Taxable Services: $9,600.00

Sales tax charged at 6%: $576.00 (split to some degree between buyer and seller)

I personally don't believe that's unreasonable. It's definitely "different", but not unreasonable for a state who's trying to manage their deficit. I never stated I was in favor of it....I just don't think it's unreasonable, that's all.

What I believe WILL be a problem...is the administration of the tax. You're asking tons of professionals to do business in a completely different way than they're used to. They've never completed the tax forms in question, they've never remitted sales tax to the state...and I somehow believe that the expense of administering the sales tax will cut deeply into the potential revenue.

In closing, yes, we disagree on the interpretation of the proposed tax. Even strongly perhaps. But I encourage everyone here (especially Realtors in Connecticut) to investigate the bill thoroughly. This blog is so full of Google juice that it's turning up all over the search engines, and I find it dismaying that the public has access to a blog whereby 99% of the responses are so negative and somewhat self-serving....and yet no one seems to even question or challenge the merit of the original content.

I think I'd make this a members only blog until the facts are complete. It can't be good for the general public to read some of the comments here....especially if it turns out that it's a tax paid by them....and not charged against the Realtor's commission. The only way it would be a hit to the Realtor's commission is if they don't charge the sales tax to their customer (they'll owe the tax to the state whether they charge it or not). To avoid that...you'll have to charge someone 6% sales tax on your commission.

Okay...well...I'll shut up now. :P

Respectfully,

Dave

2:40am • #238
Localism Sponsor

Very interesting!  Like small business do not pay enough taxes already?  Great timing, too!

8:50am • #239

Excuse me!   I Respectfully submit to you Dave that we are taxed, waaaaaay beyond what is reasonable now!   Government needs to be working on Cutting Expenses just like we do when our budget is exceeded, NOT continuing their Excesses and digging Deeper in our pocket!   IF the tax money we pay now was used Frugally and Carefully, there would Not be a shortage!   That is Not our fault, but the fault of government!   Digging deeper in my pocket is Not Reasonable at all!

Everybody responding is involved in real estate, whether realtors, buyers or sellers and is affected, I think the large majority come from realtors.

eugene
9:38am • #240

This is just like every other tax and fee imposed upon a person or company. We will jack up the price and pass it on to the consumer. OH MY - We are the Consumers!!! We need a five million person march on Congress to help them boys get their heads on right before we take them off.

John Hamilton
10:47am • #241
2 Featured Posts

Eugene,

I completely share your beliefs that we are overtaxed!!! I hate paying as much as I do, believe me!! I pay way too much in income tax (both Federal and State)...and in California, our state sales tax  was just raised to close to 10% in most areas! Gasoline taxes keep going up, and tobacco users just had an increase of sixty cents per pack recently, raising the cost of a pack of cigarettes to $5.00 or more. Note: I thought it was interesting that they don't raise taxes on alcohol as much as they do on cigarettes, but I'm pretty sure it's because most of our politicians drink...(but don't smoke). LOL! Corruption at its most basic level!

I am just appalled as anyone that the AIG execs paid themselves huge bonuses on our dime...and that Fannie and Freddie were just exposed doing the exact same thing to the tune of $200 million dollars. Where in the world is the regulation???

We're all in this together. We'll be paying back this misappropriated and abused stimulus package for the next century and I think it's a crime that we're waging battle all over the globe, while the majority of New Orleans still looks the same as it did the day after Katrina. I could go on and on, but...

I don't want to confuse the issue.

My point above is not arguing the right or wrong of taxes. I wish every state could reduce, rather than raise...taxes. But this whole post is about Realtors having to pay yet another tax out of their own pockets...from their own income...and that's simply not what the bill is about. George's state wants to charge a sales tax on professional services, which have never been taxed before. How they use it isn't being debated here. I have no idea how it'll be used. I believe some will be used wisely...but I don't have the confidence that all of it will.

BUT IT IS NOT A TAX AGAINST REALTORS. It is a sales tax on their services, just like the sales tax someone pays to Walmart when they buy a new coffeemaker.

To see a lot of people here working themselves into a frenzy about Realtors having to pay yet another tax out of their income seems silly. It's the consumer who has to pay the tax. Is it fair?? Probably not. We all pay enough taxes already. But it's also not as outrageous as many presume.

If the total tax on the sale of a $130,000 home is increased by $600.00 due to the new sales tax on professional services, I don't believe that'll stop our industry in its tracks. It was Wall Street's greed that caused most of this, and real estate was at the core of the abuse with people getting subprime loans when they shouldn't have been buying a home at all. We, as an industry, have culpability in that whole mess. And now, taxes have to raised...and spending has to be cut (in all states) to pay for it. Let's hope our elected officials do a good job of managing the debt. They haven't so far.

But it's still not a tax coming directly out of the Realtor's pocket.

Dave

10:51am • #242
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Dava, they don't seem to be able to grasp that simple concept.

Sally, yep that is a lot of comments to respond to, but I am doing my best.

David, first of all let me say whether you interpret the Bill as you and this Attorney are stating or how the State Rep's and State Senators that were at the Capitol not only interpret it, but publicly stated to those at the Capitol on Wednesday it is "An Outrageous Tax".  Any further taxation is an outrage. It is an outrage that they have gone through a surplus because of their spending ways, and now are in the whole and back for more of our money.  That is an outrage, and those who are ready to accept further taxation like yourself, are the reason why they keep on getting away with it.  Living within the revenue that they have collected, just is not in their nature, and we are expected to bail them out.  Enough is enough.  One thing that I have learned the hard way about politicians and the Bills they pass.  It is not about how it reads, it is about how they perceive it to do, and it was abundantly clear on Wednesday what they perceived this Bill to do, regardless of how it read.  And if they perceive that way that is what they will make it to be.  I hope that neither one of us has the opportunity to be stating a few months from now, "see I was right".  This Bill needs to be defeated, and then it will not matter who is right.  This is more taxation no matter how you cut it, on an Industry that has already to many taxes attached to it, the last thing we need is another.

Debra, unlike you and I, some people like Dave think that more taxation is acceptable.  He argues that he agrees that we pay too much, but his conclusion does not match his argument.  Just like this Bill does not match what the politicians plan on doing with it.

Eugene, waaaaay to much will not be enough at they rate that they are spending our money.  They need to be reminded that IT IS OUR MONEY AND NOT THEIRS, and they do not have my permission to take it.

Dave, in reading your response to Eugene, it is amazing that you don't see how any further taxation on an Industry that has already been tax through the roof, does not affect everyone in that Industry.  This is the way they always get Bills through, it affects someone else and not you.  Well this affect's us no matter how you slice it, it affects our income and future sales.

1:01pm • #243
Localism Sponsor

ABSOLUTELY GEORGE!  Right on with this post.  Also, so many great comments here from most everyone.

This will not pass if the citizens take some initiative & stand up for what they believe is right.  All too often it seems that the majority of citizens are passive, disinterested or simply do not understand how critical it is that they get involved with these very serious issues.  Afterall the issues significantly impact all of our livelihoods - not only of ourselves but our friends and families.  

Thanks for taking a stand and the excellent insight!

3:49pm • #244
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Hope, thank you for commenting.  Leslie and Debi were up there as well.  I started out with them in the Mid-Shore room, but then also checked out the Hartford room.

How did you make out with CJ?

4:02pm • #245
2 Featured Posts

George,

Wow..I sincerely don't wish this to become a brawl, but I do want to say that I take great exception to your conclusions that I'm "okay" with higher taxes. I thought I made it very clear in my previous posts that I abhor taxation at its current levels.

As a result, please don't imply that I support higher taxation on our industry. I don't.

What I DO realize is that our industry in general caused a lot of the mess we're in. The run-up of housing values at ridiculous levels, the mortgage instruments offered to buyers who didn't qualify, the volume of business over the last 5 years that lined a lot of our pocketbooks very nicely.

And now, here we are. Homeowners upside down on their homes, owing more than the property is worth. Foreclosures at all-time highs. Properties selling at the lowest prices we've seen in years. The end result? Every time a house sells for half it's previous value, property taxes are cut in half. Revenue is cut in half. So either expenses have to be cut in half...or taxes have to be raised in order to compensate.

We can cut our police forces in half...or let criminals out of prison in our attempts to save money, but I'm not in favor of that. We can let our roads decay, and schools suffer, but I'm not in favor of that either. We can stop paying unemployment compensation the way we do, trim other benefits down to the bare minimums, but I can't see where much of that would be a positive thing.

Are there areas in our spending that can be cut?? Yes. Why we feel it necessary to spend millions on studying the mating habits of the red mongoose is beyond me. I am as outraged at those types of spending as anyone. But you haven't specified what spending you think Connecticut should eliminate. I'd be interested in hearing what you think should be cut?? Teacher's salaries? Fire department personnel? Road maintenance? Let's hear it?

Because the fact remains that most states have much less revenue than they once did. Between the property tax situation and payroll taxes being cut out of the equation in droves, I'm not sure how a state can survive without creating additional revenue.

Homeowners still have the benefit of all the tax deductions in terms of interest write-offs and property tax write-offs. If that privillege, along with being able to buy property at "10-years ago" prices and get the lowest fixed rate financing than ever before seen isn't worth $600 bucks in sales tax on the deal, then I don't know the answer.

But this post isn't really about that, is it?

You've created a stir that's now circulating across the entire internet...that Realtors now have to give up more of their commission earnings on every deal. I think you're wrong. I wasn't there at the conference to listen, but I couldn't find ANY other industries affected by the new taxation approaching the situation as you have. None of them are talking about losing any of their earnings to taxation. They're talking about the impact the new tax might have on their businesses...(with the consumer now having to pay sales tax on their fees)...but I couldn't find anything anywhere reflecting your take that it's a ding against your income...and taken from your commission.

My suggestion??? For EVERYONE'S benefit....I believe you owe it to them to check your facts. Contact your legislators and get absolute clarification as to how a sales tax on professional services will work. I don't care who's right or wrong....and I'll be the first to apologize if I've misunderstood the details of the bill I've read. But I'd be cautious about perpetuating a "fact" across the internet that may not be true.

And lastly, for goodness sake, please stop being condescending or presumptuous in your reponses as to how you think I think. If I were still selling real estate today, this tax would not hurt my sales at all. I'd simply show the buyers the benefits of homeownership that still hold true today. And sellers would only be able to save the sales tax if they sold by owner...and I've never had a problem closing those kinds of situations. The new sales tax shouldn't hurt your business at all, George. I used to close 8-12 transactions per month...and this sales tax wouldn't reduce that in the least.

Is the additional tax too much tax on an already-overtaxed industry? There's no good answer to that. But for you to cry foul before even giving a hint as to what public programs you'd be willing to cut to preserve your commission (which isn't even being affected), well it just comes across as denial.

Please check with your state on the sales tax...and offer a solution in terms of spending cuts. At that point, we'll all be able to figure out a way to work within those confines.

I hope the next post is looking for ways to present this to buyers and sellers. It's still in their best interest to experience homeownership...and we in the real estate industry should probably refocus our energy on how to present it in its best light, dont'cha think?

Dave

6:17pm • #246

I would take issue with you Dave that we as realtors are responsible for the financial mess we are now in.   The Gov't who forced the mortgage companies to give loans to those who could in no way afford them to get votes, bears the Major fault and responsibility for forcing that ridiculous scheme.   I am sure you, as I, have known for years through what mortgage companies have told us that they were being Forced to greatly increase this nonsensical practice by Carter and especially Clinton using his AG to intimidate and enforce more, more, more mortgages Must be given to those who don't qualify!  All the while we were being Lied to by barney, dodd and their cronies, that everything is in great financial shape to allow barney's boy friend ro Raid fanny mae and collect his 100 MIllion dollars before his exit!   After he left, where did he reappear,, yup you gressed it, on barry's staff!

Who got kickbacks in the hundereds of thousands,, yup you guessed it the same barney, dodd and barry were at the top of the list!

Realtors were serving their clients, operating within the confines that were established by the mortgage companies.   The mortgage companies couldn't operate autonomously, even if they wanted to.   The goverment was dictating and forcing Their rules,, the dictators being the lib dems!

There are those of us who are reticent about these same dictators, who are now going to transfer their mess to our auto industry which will again, greatly impact us as realtors.

NOW is the time for action, send your tea bags to Washington and your Congressmen and attend tea parties near you!  Our careers and our childrens future depend on it!

eugene
7:20pm • #247
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

David, it is not my job to go through the State Budget to find where they can cut, when they ran for office non of them ran on raising taxes, but just about all of them promised to hold the line.  I will tell you one thing just here in the town that I live in, there are multiple funded state agencies for the treatment of drug and alcohol.  Would it not be more efficient to have one in stead of duplications of staffs.  This is one example and I bet there are several examples like this.  Maybe you deal with a different client base than I do, but these days what I see is people scraping to come up with enough money for the closing cost that already exist.  One final thing, if you go back through the comments, there were Realtors that commented on this blog that were at the Capitol, and non of them stated that I heard it wrong.  The blog is accurate about what was stated at the Capitol on Wednesday.

Eugene, if I may add to your response to David, most Lenders wrote loans by the rules. If Fannie and Freddie allowed loans to be approved at 65% back ratio's, the Lenders had no choice but to approve them.  If a Lender was to deny a loan that they got an approval on through DU, that Borrower could take them to the Banking Commission for discrimination, and there were some that did.  Were there bad Lenders who stretched even those very liberal lending guidelines yes there were, but the Fannie and Freddie guidelines at that time were lose enough to do that all on their own.  How in the world were people going to put food on the table, it 65% of their gross income was going to just pay their mortgage and other revolving debt.

8:05pm • #248
180,769 Points Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

George...I have never seen so many comments for a post.  Great post with some great comments.

11:34pm • #249
APR
05
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Rebeca, thank you, but you would be surprised their have been blogs here on ActriceRain that have received many more L)

4:30am • #250

Kevin Cornerford,

When responding to the posts on ActiveRain, I normally comment on the subject blog, however Kevin you made reference to something that many believe could essentially devastate the United States of America, a Constitutional Convention. Most people do not realize that a Constitutional Convention is made up of super-delegates.  These super-delegates are APPOINTED by the president, the speaker of the house and the senate majority leader. Kevin, by advocating a ConCon, you are giving unlimited power to forever alter the supreme laws of the land to President Obama, Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi. The people have NO VOICE in regard to the appointees.

A Constitutional Convention, which has not been convened since 1787, composed of these super-delegates could re-write, or eliminate, the entire bill of rights. Have you considered the implications of such a measure? Can we the people gamble our founding principles, our future, and the very essence of what made America, the "shining beacon of light upon the hill" that Reagan so eloquently described.

Given the voting records of Obama, Pelosi and Reid the likely outcome of a ConCon would alter our first amendment rights, our right to own firearms, our right to due process, as well as a wide range of social issues such as the definition of marriage, abortion and the range of powers which effect the (free) market.

America must realize that not only have we handed power to socialists, but we have elected a Marxist to the highest office and I say this because his voting records (his actions) and the bills he has endorsed or introduced, are totalitarian in measure. Words mean nothing, actions speak volumes! Read the "Communist Manifesto" by Karl Marx, read Ayn Rand's "Atlus Shrugged", revisit "1984" by Orwell and Huxleys "Brave New World".

I encourage everyone to get involved with organizations such as the tea parties which advocate control of government spending but I implore you to reject any call for a Constitutional Convention. If you truly care about our country and our future generations you will rise in mass against this measure which would give unlimited power to the Federal Government and possibly eliminate the system of checks and balances provided by our founders.

We the people need to remind Washington that we can work together to IMPROVE America, not CHANGE a form of government that has yielded unimaginable opportunities, limited by one's own initiative, to her citizens.

8:36am • #251
149,273 Points 54 Featured Posts Localism Sponsor Outside Blog Hit Router

Wow!  This post got a lot of attention.  I've only skimmed the comments and will stay out of the debate. We have a local tea party in Norwich coming up on the 15th and I plan to be there.

6:55pm • #252
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Linda, I have to check out the website tomorrow to see which one is the closest to me.

10:34pm • #253
APR
06
1 Featured Post

George Souto, Eugene and others. You are so right!

 If I had a dime for all the government waste I have seen... I'd be a rich rich man!  And to blame realtors for the Freddie and Fannie fiasco! Come on! Get your head out of the sand man!

Our country as we know it is fading fast and it really burns me that you won't see anything about it on the Network news! Do you know the treasury printed over 1 trillion dollars the other week? Over 1 trillion! Out of thin air! This spending and taxing is gonna ruin us and I mean this country not just real estate. Since this is not my post I won't create a link but please if you care about your country Google the (12 project and join.... It's time to take our country back.... as for the tea parties... I'm all for them but we need a true agenda... just yelling "no more spending" won't accomplish anything. I like the "Fair Tax" (Google that too) It's time to abolish the IRS!!!!!!!

 

10:19am • #254
220,503 Points 4 Featured Posts

NJ went through something similar a while back, but they never mentioned double hitting income. They went and started taxing things that flew under the radar for years. IE: club memberships etc...

This is truly double taxation on a commission, It is wrong in so many ways...  Hopefully it goes away and quickly.

10:58am • #255
10 Featured Posts

This is also rearing it's ugly head in Washington State, it's being talked about "just services, i.e., attorney's fees, etc." However we all know it means real estate commissions. We have a sales tax of 8.5% here, so guess what that means to our commissions. We are getting our "war gear" on to fight this here.

11:43am • #256
2 Featured Posts

George, Eugene and Gary,

Here's what I actually said:

What I DO realize is that our industry in general caused a lot of the mess we're in. The run-up of housing values at ridiculous levels, the mortgage instruments offered to buyers who didn't qualify, the volume of business over the last 5 years that lined a lot of our pocketbooks very nicely.

I'm not sure how it was construed that I was blaming Realtors for this mess. I used the term "our industry", NOT Realtors alone. Our industry means the real estate industry as a whole. Lenders who approved loans they shouldn't have. Realtors who took buyers from lender to lender to lender until they found one who would approve a 65% back-end ratio with poor credit, appraisers who came in at value even though there were no comps to justify it, Wall Street for creating mortgage instruments that were doomed from the beginning to fail (by the way....I don't recall anyone refusing to use those misconceived mortgage instruments while six deals a month were being closed.) It's easy to go back and point fingers now, but there was culpability on all sides if you ask me. And if it wasn't the real estate industry in general who caused the HOUSING crisis (note the word "housing"), then perhaps I ought to write to the Plumbers Union Local Chapter 877 and find out why they let it happen???? :::smirk:::

In a recent blog here on AR, a loan originator wrote:

The Buyers ratio's were 43/55, this was not good, and given my recent experience, there was NO WAY that this was getting an Approve/Eligible.  But I do not leave anything up to my opinion, so I prepared the Buyer for want I was expecting to get while I was running it through DU.  What I saw next was a shock, and I was speechless for several seconds (which for me is amazing ... LOL), on the screen it read Approved/Eligible.

A computer screen says "lend them the money"...even if their qualifying ratios are out of whack. So we do. The loan officer is a hero...and the transaction closes (much to the delight of the agents involved, or the title company, or the escrow office, or the homeowners insurance company...NONE of which would earn a dime if the deal fell through). My question is...do we sacrifice our own integrity because a computer screen says we can?? If a loan officer himself is shocked and speechless that the loan was approved, I'm guessing it's because he knows deep inside that that it's not the best situation for the buyer to get themselves into. They really can't afford it. But who cares?? It's a deal, and there are too few deals nowadays. Even though we know the loan is bad, approve it for fear of losing the deal, losing our referral base...or getting sued for discrimination???? There's not a court in the land who would rule in favor of the borrower who felt they were being discriminated against if the lender said "Your honor...even though the federal guidelines stated the loan was approvable, we couldn't bring ourselves to fund a loan where the borrower simply doesn't earn enough money to make the payments in our opinion." It's not discrimination...it's common sense.

And...it continues to be business as usual. We'll fund anything, close anything...if the government says we can, REGARDLESS of whether we personally think it's right.

YOU can blame Fannie and Freddie for that...but I can't.

Gary...my head is not in the sand, and Eugene, I wasn't blaming Realtors. BUT...NO ONE fought those mortgage instruments at all. There were no rallies by NAR, there were no protests by the Mortgage Banking Associations. If we could make a ton of money, we let our personal beliefs and morals fly out the window. My son worked at a mortgage company where 24-year old loan officers who had been in the business for 5 months wouldn't TOUCH a loan if they weren't going to make $12,000. And they had real estate agents all over the place sending them business. You can blame FNMA and FHLMC for that all you want. I'm just saying there's more to the housing crisis and resulting economic nightmare we're all facing than simply turning our cheeks the other way.

And now, for us to complain that states have to raise taxes to pay for the mess we created, well...that I find somewhat humorous, don't you??

Dave

12:08pm • #257

I think there are more "lower income" people in this country now than years prior. They're the ones that elect the socialist representatives that want to "spread the wealth" around. Now that Obama's been elected by his smooth talking, these reps feel even more encouraged to tax as much as they can to support their own agendas and not those of the people. Just look at the first expenditure Obama had for his inauguration celebration, $170,000,000.00. The most expensiive of any president. Do you think he really cares about government spending cuts?

In California the property transfer tax is even higher than Conneticut. Many cities are trying to tax or fine anything they can (such as mother-in-law units that were built without a permit 20-30 years ago)to generate more revenue. When you compare the so-called services we get in return, it doesn't add up. Look at the stimulus bill and what happened with AIG. Have you seen the millions of dollars our government gave away to foriegn countries? What about the needs here? Our government reps need to be replaced with competant representatives. Unfortunately, most Americans have become docile and/or educated (brainwashed) with a socialized mentality in our colleges. People believe they deserve something for doing little or nothing or that others owe them something.

I've worked hard since college and earned what I have, never asking for a hand-out. Now I see it being drained away, little by little, on all that is going on because of a lame governement. I say it's time everyone woke up and got involved.

Good article. But let's not let it stop with just talking about it.

Don Weller
2:33pm • #258
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Dave that Loan Officer who wrote that as you well know was me.  And once again you assumed wrong. What I meant by shocked was because FHA had tightened its qualifying ratio's to 38/52, at least I had not seen an Approved/Eligible beyond that in recent months, so I was shocked that I was seeing one beyond those ratio's again.

You seem to think that those that underwrite loans by Fannie, Freddie, and FHA guidelines can just pick and chose what they are going to approve and what they will not.  If a loan is run through the DU and it says Approved/Eligible the loan is approved if all the information that the Borrower gave is documented and verified.  The Loan Office, Underwriter, and everyone else involved in the Loan has to approve it.  You can't just deny a loan, you have to state why, and issue a formal denial letter.  Lenders are audited by the Banking Commission all the time, if a loan was to be denied, and the documentation shows that it should have been approved, that Lender has a problem with the Banking Commission, and could face law suits. So Yes you do have to follow what the computer puts out.

The Loan Officers responsibilty is to make sure the Borrower fully understands the monthly payment that they are getting themselves into, and not to make the decision for them if they personally feel it is too much.  See Dave that is what many in Government do, they feel they know better than we do where our money should go.  They treat it as their own, and feel they have the right to decide for us.  Well I don't and feel that we have the right to make those decisions for ourselves.

So Dave the next time that you want to know what I meant by what I wrote just ask me, I will be happy to tell you, in stead of assuming incorrectly.

7:17pm • #259
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Robert, flying under the radar is what they try to do with a lot of taxes.  By the time that most people know about them, they are already on the books.

Karen, keep on an eye on them, and let them know that they are in for a fight.

Don there are to many in Washington that have been there far longer than they should have been, time to change some of that.

8:24pm • #260
2 Featured Posts

George,

I guess we all sometimes assume we know what each other is thinking, hmm?? Your comments that I'm in favor of higher taxes...everyone's conclusion that I was attacking Realtors when I said "real estate industry". We're finally beginning to agree on something!! Woohoo!!! I guess I'm guilty of making a presumption in this instance. I thought you were shocked that you could get their loan approved, even with low FICO's and an inflated debt ratio. I guess I was wrong.

But here's where I think we still disagree.

If you're not shocked or dismayed that a borrower with a low FICO score (one that was artificially inflated becuase you, as an experienced loan officer, knew that if you paid a few debts down, you could temporarily increase it by 20-40 points) winds up getting a loan they can't afford, that's your business. I personally think if you allow a borrower to spend more than half their income on total debt...especially in today's uncertain economy, you're putting them in a bad situation.

EVERYONE who manipulated loan applicant information (temporarily raising FICO scores, jotting down inflated stated incomes, or whatever they did) has just as much culpability as a borrower who supposedly understood what they were getting themselves into. Heck, those were the same borrowers who, two years ago, were told if they buy now, they can sell at a profit in two years. Those were the same borrowers who lost their homes because they weren't aware their loan was an adjustable rate mortgage.

Do I excuse the consumer's ignorance or failure to pay attention when signing docs?? Nope. They're responsible...even ultimately responsible. For our government to even consider bailing them out seems like a crime. MY taxes have to bail someone out who wanted to make a fast buck, or add to their list of toys?? Why do I have to pay for that?

And I guess I'd relieve the lenders of some responsibility if they EVER sat down with these borrowers and counseled them by stating that, although their loan is fully approvable according to the guidelines, their company strongly recommends against them taking the loan. Explain to the borrower that statistics indicate their loan is at great risk for default. Don't let your personal feelings get in the way. Show them the statistics of low FICO defaults. Of high ratio defaults. You already know those statistics! They can be found all over the internet!

If lenders did that, they could push the blame game somewhere else. But they won't. They'll let overzealous borrowers, underqualified borrowers, high credit risk borrowers decide for themselves. And even if they did counsel them, the Realtor would simply shop the loan somewhere else...so the "loss-of-business" risk isn't acceptable. Full disclosure needs to take on another look nowadays, that's for sure. By the way...this is precisely how our industry created the global financial crisis. Let people decide for themselves without regulation. AIG decided for themselves to pay huge bonuses. Borrowers decided to state their monthly income as $11,000 when they knew it was less than $4,000. And we let them, because "everyone should decide for themselves" what's right??? LOL...we're finally getting tired of that model, because all of us have to pay for it dearly now. But before that, we let it all slide. And you're suggesting no one tell these borrowers the truth?? That statistically, they're setting themselves up for a fall...and that if their FICO hadn't been manipulated, they wouldn't have been approved in the first place???

I spent 15 years managing large mortgage operations here in Southern California before making the switch to selling real estate. I'm very familiar with FHA audits, lawsuits for discrimination, lending laws, etc. But a lender never, ever HAS to approve the loan based on good conscience (regardless of what the computer says). That's why one underwriter will approve the loan...and one won't. In a discrimination lawsuit, the court will ask why the loan was denied. The lender is perfectly within their rights to state that, although the loan met Federal lending requirements, it was, in their estimation too high a risk. If the borrowers could prove that it was due to race, or gender, or sexual orientation, they'd have a case. But if the lender denied the loan based on perceived risk, they're perfectly within their rights. No lender has to make a loan (especially if it's been artificially manipulated to get approved). :::cough:::

What we'll begin seeing from the mortgage industry is a form signed by the borrowers indicating that they've been counseled regarding all risks, and that they understand the risk of losing their home to foreclosure, or values dropping, or lack of future potential for loan modification associated with the loan, and that they hereby hold the lender, Realtor, and anyone else involved in the transaction, harmless. If I were still in that industry, I'd have created that form and implemented by now anyway!

In closing, my apologies in misinterpreting the DU approval. Let's both agree with your last sentence above, ok?

The next time either of us wants to know what each other meant, let's just ask. I'm sure we'll be happy to tell each other instead of assuming incorrectly. :::smile:::

Dave

8:49pm • #261

the way I'm thinking is that possibly more taxation money would go into eliminating homeowners from losing homes and enabling them to refinance. I'm into loan document signing and that does help me but the national stimulus package does not seem fair. I know it hurts many and helps many others. What makes you think you would be completely out of work?

8:52pm • #262

Thanks Kevin for bringing up the VERY important point of the ConCon, that would utterly destroy our country and the last vestige of freedom that we have left! 

That would give "validity" to the Socialist Crooks,, aka the LIB DEMS ,, who are in office now.   That would make their raid on our rights literally irreversible!   As long as the ConCon can be staved off and delayed, we have hope that when the Socialist LIB DEM crooks are finally thrown out of office that our great country can be restored!

You are Right On George, that the responsibilty for our financial mess is the Gov't ,,Fannie mae/Freddie mac and their LIB DEM cronies barney, dodd and barry the Socialist,etc!   NOT realtors or mortgage companies!   We operate and are controlled by the law, they operate with impunity!

All of the contents of this blog are pertinent to outrageous taxation and government control that is antithetical to our freedom and Anti American   The Real cause and solution is to get the LIB DEMS out of office ASAP!!     Our future and our country's future absolutely demand it!

eugene
8:55pm • #263
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Dave, first of all in the days of manual underwriting that might have been the case but no more. And yes whether we like it or not the computer, has taken a lot of the decision making out of the lending process.

We follow the rules and guidlines, Dave, and don't make up as we go a long like you would like us to.

Second I did not inflate any thing, those are your words not mine, if the Borrower manitains what I showed him that he needed to do, then he will maintain those scores. OH does that sound like counciling on how to be responsible with his finances?  Also Dave there are certain loan programs, especially for first time homebuyers that they have to go to mandatory classes before receiving the loan.  Should we be telling them after they go to the class and qualify under the guidlines that we still don't like it and deny them too?

You are grasping at straws, and that is sad, I unfortunately gave you more credit then that.

9:48pm • #264
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

Sandra, the higher the Real Estate Taxes the more costly the purchase, the less sales, the less income, the less people in the industry.

Eugene, Dave does not like the rules, so I guess we should pick and chose who we are going to apply the rules to and who we are not going to apply them to. I thought that we were suppose to treat everyone equally.  I have a hard time understanding his mind set.

9:56pm • #265
2 Featured Posts

George,

Okay, well, this is getting out of hand...so this will be my last post.

But...before I address your last comments, have you checked out the validity of your original blog topic yet??? The one about being triple taxed on your commissions? Let's get those facts straight first, shall we?

Secondly, Eugene...wow...you need to relax a little. Lib Dems? Republicans were in office when this whole mess started. By the way, I am registered Republican, so I'm not biased when I state that the housing crisis BEGAN during Republican rule. Do I agree with how Obama is handling the situation?? No. My children are going to inherit this cash-cow and pay on it their entire lives. Would McCain/Palin have handled it any better?? I doubt it.

But for you to come spouting anti-American taunts, and ranting about government control and no freedom (blah, blah) seems blissfully ignorant to what got us here in the first place. And to deny the industry's role in perpetuating this mess seems like the worst case of denial I've ever seen. You show me the letters you wrote to the Republicans in office when this mess was happening....advising them against the mortgages that put us in this predicament, and asking them to render tighter control and regulations in our credit and banking industries...and I'll leave you alone.

But to march down Main St. waving a Union flag after the fact....and not take any responsibility is outrageous, and it's taking the easiest way out. I guess we're all free to move somewhere else if the need or urge arises.

And George,

Go ask the principals of your company whether they can deny a loan because they deem it an unacceptable risk, even though DU approves it. Their answer will be the same as mine. Here is a direct quote from Fannie Mae's DU selling guidelines:

General Lender Requirements

When underwriting loans with DU, the lender must:

  • employ prudent underwriting judgment in assessing whether a loan casefile should be approved and delivered to Fannie Mae,

  • confirm the accuracy of the data it submits, making sure that it did not fail to submit any data that might have affected the DU recommendation had it been known,

  • ensure that the loan complies with all of the verification messages and approval conditions specified in the DU Underwriting Findings report,

  • apply due diligence when reviewing the documentation in the loan file,

  • review the credit report to confirm that the data that DU evaluated with respect to the borrower's credit history was accurate and complete,

  • determine if there is any potentially derogatory or contradictory information that is not part of the data analyzed by DU, and take action when erroneous data in the credit report or contradictory or derogatory information in the loan file would justify additional investigation or would provide grounds for a decision that is different from the recommendation that DU delivered.

Item #1 is the item you need to pay attention to. If a lender feels it would NOT be prudent to make the loan, they have no legal or otherwise binding requirement to do so. FNMA doesn't require it, and nor does any Banking Commission or Federal Housing Authority. Do lenders exercise these "prudent" guidelines to deny loans??? Um....in a word, no. Of course not.

The chant we've been hearing 'round the world for the last decade is "If the loan can be made...make it. Let someone else worry about the consequences". We will never substitute prudence for profit as long as a software program tells us there's a paycheck right around the corner, REGARDLESS of risk!

So, you can continue blaming the LibDems, or Banking Commissions, or fear of being sued on grounds of discrimination all you want...or even call the manipulation of a FICO score "Buyer Counseling"....but in reality all you're doing is perpetuating this crisis for many, many years to come.

George, it's YOU who is making up the rules as you go, not me. You're the one spreading the cries of triple taxation when that's simply not the truth. You're the one quoting how underwriting MUST be done nowadays...versus simply familiarizing yourself with Fannie's actual selling guide. You're the one convinced that your "counseling" of low credit scores make a borrower more responsible, when history has proven that wrong time and time again. And you're the one who continues to "know" how I think: "Dave does not like the rules".

Here's what I DO like.

Someone who knows what they're talking about. Someone who uses common sense instead of greed in determining what's best...and someone who doesn't make excuses for how they got where they are...or how our country got where it is.

With that being said....I don't have the energy to post on this blog anymore. I don't like it. It's deceiving at worst...and woefully ignorant at best.

I wish you well though...and for your continued success. And that, IN LIGHT OF EVERYTHING HERE is very sincere.  

Dave

11:38pm • #266
APR
07
468,496 Points 54 Featured Posts Outside Blog

David, thank you for providing the information that proves my point.  Item #1 DOES NOT state that "If a lender feels it would NOT be prudent to make the loan, they have no legal or otherwise binding requirement to do so. FNMA doesn't require it, and nor does any Banking Commission or Federal Housing Authority."

Item #1 as you wrote it, "employ prudent underwriting judgment in assessing whether a loan casefile should be approved and delivered to Fannie Mae"  This is simply setting up what they go on to further say, and what they are saying goes completely to VERIFICATION as I stated in MY response to you "If a loan is run through the DU and it says Approved/Eligible the loan is approved if all the information that the Borrower gave is documented and verified"

With a DU or LP approval, the underwriter no longer determines whether the ratios are acceptable or not DU and LP does that.  What the Loan Officer and Underwriter still need to do is collect the documentation that supports the information given and verify it.  If income is correct, bank statements are correct, employment, tax returns if called for by DU or LP, as well as any other documentation that might be needed is correct then the loan has to be approved.  Automated Underwriting has already made that decision, IF the information is correct.  You want Lenders to deny loans that they have an Automated Underwriting approval for, even if all the documentation verifies the information that was provided to the computer.  Lenders CAN NOT do that, if they do they will be before the Banking Commission for discriminating.  That happens right now even when the Lender feels that the information does not check out, and they are taken to the Banking Commission, the Commission over rules them and finds them, and that my friend is fact.

As far as this Bill goes I have already given you my response, I guess you don't like it so you have just kept on asking it over and over again.  Well the response is the same, I was there and know what I heard, and others that where there that have also commented on this post, have not said otherwise.

Good Luck David I too wish you well, and lets see if you are a man of your word and that your comment above is your last comment on here.

7:54am • #267

You don;t think that McCain/Palin would have handled things any better Dave?   A MONKEY would have handled things better than barry, by doing Nothing!   Barry has severly exacerbated the crisis by his ignorance and blatant adherence to his PC CRAP mindset!   He has made the problem 1000% worse than it was!   Not only for the present but Decades into the future!

Just check your MLS stats, the year before barry got in office there was less than 1% a month deterioration, in Jan after barry was put in office, prices dropped 27% in the month he got elected!  Feb saw another 15% Drop and we are still waiting for Mar stats.

I agree that I would have much rather had Keyes, Rice, Romney, etc to vote for rather than McCain who is too cozy with the lib dems, but even he is light years better than the Socialistic barry!  McCain is not a Communist, like barry!

The genesis of this financial  mess was Caused by the lib dems, carter, slick n hil, barney, dodd, kerry, schumer, barry and all of their lib dem cronies!   NOT by mortgage companies or realtors or Republicans!

eugene
9:04am • #268

Mr. Obama knows exactly what he is doing, unfortunately.

George, not that you need another comment to this great post, but I felt obligated to share. All service industries, like freelance writing, may be subject to this kind of tax. As some have suggested, this is a tax we CAN pass on to our client, but many of us won't stay marketable in this climate by doing so.

2:27pm • #269
APR
10

Maybe its time just to throw all of the parasites (oops i mean polticians) out of office and start over with a new batch

9:30pm • #270
AUG
10
Good afternoon. Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. I am from Montenegro and also am speaking English, give please true I wrote the following sentence: "Awesome! Soft glowing green neon, will fit in any room." Thank you so much for your future answers :p. Chantal.
Chantal
2:41am • #271

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George Souto

Middletown, CT

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George Souto (McCue Mortgage) FHA, CHFA, VA Mortgages CT.

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