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At the NAR. HVCC Problems? Not according to the Government.

One of the seminars I attended today at NAR was entitled 'Managing the Risks and Opportunities of the New Home Valuation Code of Conduct (HVCC)."

Let me say at the outset, I sat through the whole friggin thing and didn't note any opportunities - unless you count aggravation as an opportunity. No shortage of risks, however.

NAR did a great job staging this - they had a panel in place that included spokesholes from FHFA, FHA, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and an AMC. Oh, and they had two Realtors sitting in for balance. In my humble opinion, if I had a load of the bullshit they were peddling today, I would have the healthiest, greenest lawn in Southern California.

Alfred Pollard, General Counsel for the Federal Housing Finance Agency; Jacqueline Doty, Directory of Collateral Policy for Freddie Mac; and Mark Johnson, COO for LSI (and Appraisal Management Co), started the process with brief statements on why the program was started (to combat fraud) and how well it's working. As Mr. Pollard stated - 'we have experience a systemic event for the financial markets, primary and secondary lenders, Realtors, institutional lenders and appraisers - all of those industries are on the table as we determine what comes next.'

It was interesting to note that the one entity that he left out, the one he happens to work for, wasn't included as being on the table - THE GOVERNMENT. The one institution central to the whole fiasco is the only one not up for evaluation and found wanting. In fact, these sanctimonious bastards are now sitting in judgement of the rest of us and determining how they can keep us from running amok again. Ain't that special.

Our Realtor panelists, Steve White, owner of two large Keller-Williams offices in LA; and Penny Triplet, a Realtor and appraiser from Ohio, stated the litany of complaints that you are all familiar with. Delays, incompetence, bad appraisers, out of area appraisers, higher costs to customers, lost transactions, lack of portability - you name it, they brought it up.

The government people claimed to be listening but they were just dancing. Time and again they quoted passages from the 6 page HVCC document - well this is how it's supposed to work; well, this is what it says; well that's another of those myths; well this is how you're supposed to work through that. Basically they acknowledged that 'there might be a few bad actors in the group but this HVCC has solved a lot of problems and is a wonderful thing.'

Oh, and if you thought it was scheduled to expire in June of 2010 - think again, It's in place until next November and there ain't nothing you or (NAR President) Charles MacMillan or anybody else can do about it. Your opportunity is to learn how to work with it because it's here to stay. Even after the current HVCC expires, some form of the bureaucracy that has been set up to administer it will continue because, like any government program, once born it never dies.

As if the moderator knew the Q & A might get testy, she decided that rather than take questions from the floor, she would just take questions submitted in writing. That lasted about 15 minutes until she could no longer ignore the line of Realtors standing quietly at the microphones waiting to ask questions.

Still no straight answers were forthcoming. Realtors were advised to report bad appraisers - that is if you can figure out who they work for or if the AMC or the lender cares enough to return your call (after 18 months, the office for reporting bad appraisers still hasn't quite been set up but it's coming soon). Realtors are allowed to talk to appraisers and even give them comps, of course provided the appraiser even bothers to call you or come out to your city or doesn't report you for applying undue influence by giving them accurate comps. If you get a bad appraiser you can request a do-over, of course it will be done by the same guy whom is now pissed off and never mind that the delay might cost you the deal. If it's so bad your buyer switches to another lender of course the appraisal should be portable (like you'd want to port that crap) unless the new lender doesn't want to accept it or it's from an appraiser that's not accredited by their AMC, in which case your client will get to buy a new one and hope it's better than the old one. You've got an appraiser from 200 miles away? Or even from another state? Jeez, that's not supposed to happen because the HVCC says it's not so it can't be. That's just anecdotal information. The Freddie Mac rep said complaints to her office are waaaay down since HVCC. Complaints from appraisers that is. Turns out they don't take complaints from Realtors unfortunately.

One Realtor summed it up perfectly - 'The government appears to think the problem in under control. Realtors think the problem is out of control. How do we get the two sides together?

If todays panel is any indication, we don't. Hang on kiddies - it's gonna get worse before it gets better. We're from the government and we're here to help you.

Posted by Gene Wunderlich - Realtor®, Government Affairs Director on 11/13/2009 11:04 PM

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47 Comments on At the NAR. HVCC Problems? Not according to the Government.

NOV

2009

This is NOT encouraging news. Seems like "the gov't appears to think lots of problems are under control these days... that AREN'T! As for HVCC... there has to be a better solution. It is definitely out of control.

Now that you explained the details of the seminar. Please tell us how you really feel. I've been on the soap box too long so I will let you keep the podium for a while.

NOV

2009

If you are talking government and/or big bank, God help us....it is not getting any better.

As a correspondent lender, we figured it out, but it was NOT easy. We feel the pain when speaking with our industry partners, including our friends at some of the big banks as well.

I will say that I am a little surprised at how many realtors recently have told me they weren't familiar with HVCC or even the issues related to it. I wondered what rock they've been hiding under?

Thanks for the update!

If the appraiser do what they want, and report AMC misconducts, in about a year there would be no working appraisers to do appraisals, because the AMC's wouldn't hire them. What a crock. Nice post, I'm gonna have to repost this one. Thanks for your support.

Bill - from the soubnds of it neither Realtors nor many appraisers are fully conversant on this program. That could probably be expanded to include many lenders, many AMC's, etc.

One question that did not get answered at all today was the apparent divergence between one of the initial goals of the program and the reality. The main goal from Andrew Cuomo was to remove the lender from appraiser and eliminate that source of fraud. However, today many of the largest AMC's are owned by lenders which, according to some, gives them de facto access to control market price even more strongly than before.

The irony was noted that in the year NAR finally was successful getting banks out of real estate they are actually more involved and entrenched than they've ever been.

Am presenting an offer today to an Listing agent who has an appraisal from a fallen thru deal that is $20,000 too high ! The appraiser was from a different county and used upper end properties from CLEARLY(to locals) superior subdivisions! Thanks HVCC !

No big surprise there. They like to keep their heads in the sand and deny that their programs aren't as perfect as they think they are. I have had two bad appraisals in the last two months from appraisers who clearly don't know how to do their job. I had a very experienced appraiser lookat these two idiots comments in the appraisal notes and he honestly couldn't believe what he was seeing....when he found out the appraisal company name, he shook his head and said it now all made sense. Of course this company is the one the local AMCs always go to, so doesn't look like these people will leave anytime soon. The HVCC breeds incompetency and leaves no way for bad appraisers to get forced out of the business.

Wow, that must have been frustrating. I must admit that I feel quiet powerless in this whole mess.

This has got to change. I can understand the need for regulation considering appraisers acted like drug addicts and were lining up with banks and Realtors at the feeding trough. But what gets me worked up is that if the American home buying public's protection was the goal, I would have to give HVCC a D. The only reason it wouldn't be a F is that maybe in summer school they might learn something.

Well I am glad that I didn't waste time attending that class sounds like you left with a sense of blathering on about how great a disaster of a program HVCC really is. Love your straightforward candid review of the session though. If only they had someone like you as the "realtor for balance".

Thanks Gene for telling like you saw it!

"One Realtor summed it up perfectly - 'The government appears to think the problem in under control. Realtors (Everone Involved) think the problem is out of control. How do we get the two sides together?"

A. We scream from the roof tops until the fools start listening!

Gene- Am I surprised? As soon as this is off the feature reader board I am going to reblog to make sure it gets a good run. More Realtors need to be reading this, care about this and raise their voices about this and so many of the horrific government programs that are ALWAYS a disaster! I don't think I even have to tell you how sick I am of all their sanctimonious bull crap. I read a very good article in WSJ where there was a commenter from England and who reads a paper over there that gave a very good breakdown of who is getting away with what in this whole thing. Guess who? Can we say the guy that does not even know what pot looks like?????? As one of the key players??? Hmmmm. Katerina

Joe - that point was also raised during one of the Realtor questions - this is supposed to be all about THE PUBLIC, making the process easier and more honest for OUR CLIENTS and it's obviously not. Gov't response? That's largely because everybody focuses on the problems and 'we' (gov't) haven't done a very good job letting the public know how much they have benefitted. Instead of talking about all the problems, you (Realtors) need to be reassuring your clients that the process is much more honest for them.

That went over like a load of stones.

They also said some of the prolems are because many seasoned appraisers have left the ranks or gone into commercial where there's more money. They are currently working on training a whole new crop of appraisers that will be even quicker and more accurate than the people we used to know and trust in our communities.

They also said Realtors are partially to blame for bad comps because we give our mls data to the out of area appraisers instead of reporting them. They reminded us it's illegal to disseminate mls info to people who are not members of our associations. Yeah - it's our fault. So next time an appraiser asks you for info, grill them about why they need it. That'll help your cause.

Even the one AMC guy admitted that all AMC's aren't on the up and up but they're working to resolve that. Of course his company is squeeky clean. He kept using the phrase 'mea culpa' to preface his answers because he sounded like an apologist for his industry even thought his company isn't at fault for any of the kind of problems we're all seeing.

Glad I had my boots on yesterday.

Gene-

Thanks for the update, even if it is very depressing. I will reblog this post as well because it deserves great attention. There were supposed to be hopeful signs that this will be going away, including bills introduced in Congress to suspend HVCC. I guess this is a pipe dream. I guess no one at the panel even discussed the effect that appraisal fees are going up which is hurting the consumer or the fact that appraisal fraud has gone up since the implementation of HVCC. There is no HVCC in FHA loans and no one is complaining about appraisal fraud.

My worst fear is something else you mentioned. I think the toothpaste is already out of the tube. Even if we do away with HVCC, the process is already in place and it will be very hard to go back.

Gene:

Thanks for the factual report on what is going on at NAR. If the government buries it's head in the sand on HVCC, how are they going to do with National Health Care.

Thanks for the information, and cutting through the spoon feeding of information for us. It is amazing how the government has its fingers in everything and instead of acknowledging the problems it is always someone else's fault (i.e. Realtors for not spreading their propoganda for them).

It's fairly obvious from the post and the comments why no independent appraisers were involved in the NAR seminar you attended. The manner in which it was conducted being the most obvious, but also the disdain that most realtors seem to have for appraisers. (Sheesh! You'd think they were lawyers:)) I have talked with several individuals in the real estate profession who hold both agent/broker licenses AND appraiser licenses, and they have all told me that licensing for appraisers is tougher than for agents/brokers; that you are required to be more knowlegable about almost all areas of real estate in order to obtain your appraiser's license, and; that the standards that are enforced against appraisers are much more stringent than those for agents/brokers or most any other professional in the business of real estate. Find some of these individuals and ask them about it.

As for fraud, the latest findings show that fraud is increasing under HVCC, not decreasing. AMC's are now pushing appraisers to sign off on allowing the AMC's to remove &/or replace the appraiser's signature on appraisals(!!!) and are asking appraisers to use the AMC's software to more easily accomplish this and to allow the AMC's to alter the appraiser's report!

HVCC has put many independent appraisers out of business and mandated that the rest of them obtain their assignments through AMC's, many of which are owned by lenders. Probably one of the reasons why appraisers were not included in the forum. Can anyone say, "Conflict of interest"? These AMC's pull a large percentage of the appraiser's fees out of the appraiser's pocket and into their own for very little work on their parts. Yet appraisal fees have not noticeably increased. HVCC has created a 'protection racket' in the business of doing appraisals.

Due to the standards to which appraisers are held by both the national organization and the state in which they are licensed, the appraisal business, in my opinion, was getting better all the time over the last 10-15 years, prior to the implementation of HVCC. Appraisers are much more at risk of loss of license and prosecution for errors &/or negligence rather than for malicious or fraudulent actions than just about anybody else in the real estate profession (of which appraisers are your fellow members). It tends to keep you tense and on edge about your accuracy and everything else you do that goes down on the appraisal report since you are under increasing scrutiny and more regular reviews of your work, even though an appraisal is an "opinion of value."

I've heard from many realtors who are unhappy with the appraisals they've seen (prior to HVCC) and think the appraiser is working against them, or "doesn't know what he's/she's talking about." If your appraiser is from the area and knows/understands your market it's become increasingly difficult to imagine that the report that appraiser has generated is anything less than his/her best informed and educated effort to come up with a reasonably accurate opinion of value, despite what the agent or broker may think (his/her 'BPO'). The risk of accomplishing anything less is far too great for the independent appraiser. Appraisers are responsible for values that all the bokerages cover in any given area -- individual realtors are not, nor are they as well equipped. Again, talk to those who hold both licenses or, at least, discuss your issues and concerns with appraisers you have met, even though HVCC makes it very difficult to discuss much of anything with appraisers with whom you may be working.

I refer to appraisers above as 'they' or 'them' because I am no longer doing appraisal work. I won't work in a business for a 40% cut of the fees required to accomplish even more work, under more frequent scrutiny/reviews for which we have to create responses and justifications (at no additional compensation), for an 'organization' that wants to dictate my work areas and report content while holding me responsible for their policies & changes. Plus, I've lost all one-on-one, face-to-face contact with the people in the industry with whom I most like interacting.

WOW is all I can say! Must have been hard for you to sit through an entire session of this. Why can't we let honest people do honest work and just go after the crooks.

Gene - Thanks for the glimpse in to the NAR's HVCC meeting. I can relate to your frustration. I bet the Realtors who aren't real familiiar with HVCC are in areas where FHA/USDA financing is still prevalent. They'll be enlightened to the realities of HVCC here soon, though.

Gene, Kudos for reporting so quickly. This HVCC mess is part of the banks "back-door" into the real estate industry. Add to this the domination that banks have as SELLERS, and I expect to see class-action lawsuits in a few years... The lawyers will run ads looking for "harmed" folks who bought a home from this or that bank?... Appraised by this or that AMC?... Call our law offices today!

Seems like the bad decisions from Washington just keep multiplying. It's becoming painfully obvious that all the current administration (and friends) want is the POWER to control every aspect of our lives. Scary stuff.

I don't know what can be done now, beyond writing letters, etc. and letting the fools know that they need to listen to the American people if they plan to be re-elected.

But then, do they care if they're re-elected? Seems to me that I read the "retirement" benefits are pretty darned good, even when you're effectively "fired." I suppose they do care - they want that narcotic called power.

Last month I had an out of area appraiser come in to appraise one our our sales. He asked me to get the deed and courthouse info since he doesn't know how to do it. He also is not a member of our MLS< so how is getting comps? Finally, this appraiser is listed in directories as service our area, yet he has no MLS access, doens't know how to use our courthouse, and is relying on me to help him through the process. This is bull. Appraisers are NOT supposed to operate in unfamiliar territory, yet who decides what that is when the appraiser lists himself as being familiar with a county?

Crap, just as I thought the government can do something right LOL

Gene, Great rant, and well founded. We've seen a lack of accountability. Two appraisals performed within days of each other had vastly divergent answers (of course, the appraisal done for a potential refi by the contractor/seller's bank was much higher than the one done for the borrower's bank in this purchase transaction.) So we rebutted the comps used for the lower appraisal (some as much as 12 months old and not very nearby.) The AMC sent the rebuttal to the appraiser along with some suggested additional (and more appropriate) comps. The Appraiser responded with "additional comps considered and with adjustments continue to support our previous conclusion."

No kidding - what were they going to say. "Oh you are right, we are incompetent and missed this entirely."?? No, they will always justify their actions (incompetent as they appear) and because we can't direct our business away from them, they are not accountable. Even competent appraisers I have spoken with recognize that this is one of the failings of this NY State-imposed government protection of the poor, illiterate american citizens who can't survive without our stepping in.

The government regulation pendulum has only begun to swing to its fully-imposing, over-regulated stance and we can already see the ill effects. The full effect will be devastating to our economy. -Dave

Man, that stinks! I am all for getting rid of HVCC since it seems to be nothing more than a knee jerk reaction to a problem by people who are not out working in the field dealing with the challenges of what we do everyday. They are not helping...more like hurting our industry and frustrating everyone in the process. Wish you had better news to report...but I appreciate you sharing what you have heard at the session with us.

1st Step! Accept the things you can't control! 2nd Step! Allow our government to subsidize our banking system! So the banks can make incrediable profits, by NOT taking risk. 3rd Step! Entire system will come to stop as it did in the 80's as result of greed, then banks will have to lend on there own REO to move it. REALITY IS WE HAVE TO ACCEPT THE THINGS WE CAN NOT CONTROL, and MANAGE AROUND IT

Paul - the bills in congress to place a 12-18 month moratorium on HVCC, the NAR 2009 Legislative & Regulatory accomplishments booklet just released talks about the bills being introduced, about our 'conversations' with the GSE's, about 'calling on' the NY AG's office, but so fare the only success seems to be in getting FHA not to implement it in it;s entirety - which was addressed by Commissioner Stevens in his remarks today (and which will be the subject of another blog soon).

John - I don't know that I'd agree that Realtors hold appraisers in low esteem. I know in our market we've always known the good ones and avoided the rest, tried to work with them, not unduly influence them, provide info whan appropriate. But I can say that anybody who held appraisers in contempt before HVCC wishes we had those days back. We'd be kissing their butts today for the great job they did. I think most of us appreciated their efforts and the difficulty they had appraising in rising and falling markets. There were some bad apples that contributed to rampant fraud in our area of SoCal - just as there were crooked lenders and Realtors in the mix. It was a hole in the panel not to have the voice of an appraiser present.

Most appraisers I know have gotten out of the biz or are trying to get by with just FHA or non-AMC generated work and it's tough. Many claim this marks the end of the independent appraiser.

Dave - your right on point. Even the AMC guy (who seemed pretty decent) admitted that they rarely overturn one of their appraisers on appeal even if the newly supplied comps seem to bear out the request for revision. If it becomes a regular thing with one appraiser they'll probably bounce him but 'it hasn't been a problem we've had to deal with yet'.

BriefBoy - That's the bottom line. HVCC is here, it's not likely to get changed for the better anytime soon and it's not going away either. So figure out how to run your business around it along with the challenges of REO's, short sales and the other challenges of your day to day business.

If I was a betting man, I'd bet that REO's and SS's will go away long before the HVCC does.

Oh, and on the fraud issue - the whole reason HVCC was implemented - Fannie & Freddie say it has had a marked impact on fraud. Most everybody else either agreed it was too soon to tell or that the effect has been just the opposite.

One Realtor from the floor likened the program to having a school with one or two bad kids acting up so they put everybody in detention and confiscated their lunch money too. I forget which one agreed saying that the government does two things extremely well - nothing and over-react.

Wow thanks for bringing us a straight and honest assessment from the front lines of the NAR conference.

Who owns the HVCCs? Follow the money! Someone is making a bundle and you can bet they are a friend of someones.

Thank you for the report from NAR. We appreciate you taking time keeping those of us on the East Coast updated about what is going on in San Diego. HVCC is not only difficult for us as REALTORS...we have appraisers who disagree with HVCC totally. Most appraisers are not the enemy, but it is difficult to keep that in mind when a deal is going south due to the appraisal! Please continue to provide your candid updates! Thank you again!

Gene, The more we see how they are trying to shove this stuff down our throats, the more angry I get. There is some hope for us though, because 3 weeks ago a bill with an addendum eliminating HVCC passed the House Financial Affairs Committee. Please, everyone, check out my BLOG and the corresponding links to help get rid of this death grip we have from the government! Only about 8 comments were made on this blog since it was not featured. We need to get the word out.

Gene - Nobody owns HVCC. It was simply a policy suggestion by New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo that has, for some reason, become the lawe of the land and changed the face of the appraisal business. However, if you follow the money it leads to the AMC's the appraisal management companies that have sprung up to fill this niche and the largest ones are owned by the lenders who were supposed to be eliminated from the appraisal equation by HVCC to eloiminate fraud. Go figure.

Dawn - Most appraisers in my area disagree wholeheartedly. It is a bum rap for all concerned.

Jirius - I'll check it out. Thanks. One bill has snaked out but according to the powers that be - including NAR assessment of the situation, there will ne no moratorium barring a miracle. Realtors and consumers could make that miracle with a massive effort but we'll still be saddled with some offshoot of HVCC.

Susan asked if it would make sense for the seller to order an appraisal at the time of listing to address some of the HVCC problems? Unfortunately not because an AMC currently appraisals are not portable by law so an AMC is well within it's right to refuse to accept an appraisal from another appraiser who may not b e on their accredited appraiser list. So your seller would be spending an extra 400 -700 and they would be doubly pissed off if they price their home at what one appraiser says only to have that report summarily rejected in favor of some bozo with company XYZ whose appraiser comes from another county or state. If enough people get pissed off it might help the cause but until then they can save a few bucks and just hope for the best.

NOV

2009

Gene- Cuomo (NY AG) imposed this on National Banks chartered or qualified in NY State. Hence every large lender is saddled with it. And yes the money is going to the AMCs. Borrowers in our area pay on average $75-125 more than they used to and appraisers are making $100 or so less per job. That puts about $200 per into AMCs pocket for tracking it all on line. Loved your line "We're from the government & we're here to help you.". It's only just begun... -Dave

Gene: That's for your update and obviously the 'feds' think things are working just fine and the realtors are anything but pleased. Just another scenario where the government is saying 'you're not happy with what we've cooked up?' Someone's dissatisfied? Jeez.

Just put a link for your post to Stacey the editor of Realtor Magazine who wanted us to help her out with some good interesting articles. Wow, let's see if she will help us out.

Gene ... Thanks for the article about HVCC and panel at Realtor.org convention. We all in private business and our clients need lots of luck with the HVCC appraiser situation. Keep it going.

NOV

2009

I've just posted a new one "More HVCC Problems? Appraisal Fraud Up 46% Over last year." The amazing thing is that this poll shows inflated value appraisal fraud up 46%. I have yet to hear a story of inflated values. Most of you seem to have exactly the opposite problem - with appraisals coming in way under value. I don't know what's going on but HVCC clearly isn't working as it was intended - if Andrew Cuomo ever really knew what he intended to do in the first place.

Is there ANYONE who like HVCC? Appraisers make less, Loan officers and agents think it's a nightmare and what exactly is the benefit to the buyer who can't buy the property he wants for the price he is willing to pay? Disappointing to hear that this is NOT going away. I thought there were motions in that direction.

There is motion in that direction but not much traction. There is a petition circulating that will be presented to Andrew Cuomo on Wednesday. NAR was initally hoping to achieve some success through the legislative moratorium process but that appears stalled right now and the Fannie guy told us at NAR that if we thought it was going away in June 2010 we were wrong - it extends until at least one year from now and even then will not cpompletely go away because it has too much momentum.

If you are interested in hearing more and signing the petition, please visit. http://www.hvccpetition.com/

NOV

2009

I sat thru the same HVCC seminar at NAR and I got the same response as you did. It was nothing but BS. I am amortgae banker and Realtor, and most of our loans are rural properties, most of our clients have 700+ credit scores and the loans are at 80% loan to value. The way appraisals are coming in and being critiqued by underwriters, I will soon be out of bussiness. We are honest, do not lie, and never asked appraisers to get us a certain value on a home in the past, and have not committed fraud. Thank you a lot US Government and HVCC, now lets go throw away some more tax payers money to bail out some more banks, and let them turn down our loans. I wonder if I can get a government bailout when I go broke. I am sure I already know the answer.

JAN

2010

i liked HVCC before but not now..

cyprus

i liked HVCC before but not now..

cyprus

JAN

2010

We're not having nearly as much of an issue w/HVCC in St Louis as we did last summer. I think we'll see this whole program go through a major revamp (or best case) shut down.

JAN

2010

thanks for the info..shut hvcc down? really? larnarca

JAN

2010

wow..great post about hvcc here..cyprus

JUN

2010

"...unless you count aggrivation as an opportunity..."

I love it! It reminds me of Raising Arizona:

"Do these balloons blow up into funny shapes?"

"Not unless you think round is funny!"

JUN

2010

Just another unbalanced, bullshit, bitch-session. NO ONE REPRESENTING APPRAISERS EVEN ON THE PANEL!

I no longer do appraisals.

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Gene Wunderlich - Realtor®, Government Affairs Director

Murrieta, CA

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