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REDRUM! We Didn't See That On the Door!

By Cindy Westfall

Real Estate Agent with Premiere Property Group,LLC Portland Metro & Suburbs Oregon

July 05, 2013 08:49 AM

REDRUM! We Didn't SeeThat On the Door!

No, we didn't have any signs like the scene in Stephen King's "The Shining". No REDRUM written on REDRUM the door to give the buyer a hint that a murder took place just a year earlier. MURDER. Finding out from a neighbor kid that the wonderful home you just purchased had a gruesome murder happen is not something you expect to hear. In fact, the odds are very slim right?

I just got a phone call from a very shocked buyer letting me know this very thing happened. She was wondering why the seller didn't disclose this. You see, here in Oregon, a seller does not have to disclose if the property or a neighboring property has been the site of a death, crime, political activity, religious activity, or any other act or occurrence that does not adversely affect the physical condition of, or title to, real property, including that a convicted sex offender resides in the area.

Should it be disclosed? I personally say yes. Yes, it my limit your buyer pool, but at least the new buyers know about it and are OK with it instead of getting blindsided by the news after the fact.

So what can be done at this point? The new owners can turn around and re-sell it, but will they then lose on the bigger buyer pool if they disclose it? Of course they don't legally have to. In this case, the home was a flip..the seller bought it at a steal (which we now know why) and pretty much gutted the house and re-built, so everything inside was new as well as the exterior paint and landscaping. In our market, it's very hard to find a home in the price they purchased it for with being completely updated.

I mentioned to the new owner that I beleive there were services that can come in and bless or cleanse the home. Maybe there are some Priests or ministers that will do this. She seemed to like that idea.

I know I would be a bit unsettled knowing that a gruesome murder took place a year ago in the home I just bought, so these new homeowners are going to have to work through this. I'm guessing there has to be some reason why this doesn't have to be disclosed. For most buyers, the last thing you're thinking about asking is if there was a murder in the home, so this was not even on anyones radar..mine included and it's not something that comes up in regular conversation when purchasing a home.

Here are some sights to check to find out before you purchase a home that are from the Oregon Buyer's Advisory:

Deaths, Crimes and External Conditions

"Concerned buyers can contact their local police for more information. Websites for Oregon counties can be found at: http://www.aocweb.org/aoc/AboutOregonCounties/CountyLinks/tabid/79/Default.aspx. Websites for cities can be found at:

http://www.orcities.org/CityResources/LOCCityDirectory/tabid/845/ctl/ShortcutResults/mid/13270/language/en-US/Default.aspx?view=4. Some large cities (e.g., Portland) publish crime maps (e.g., www.portlandmaps.com) on their website."

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Jimmy Faulkner

Florida. Homes Realty & Mortgage - Wantagh, NY

The Best Of St. Augustine

Full disclosure to the buyer is important. The money is not that important. When you are not disclosing it will eventually wear you down to the tune of BURNOUT! It happens all the time.

Jul 06, 2013 10:27 AM

Paddy Deighan MBA JD PhD

http://www.medicalandspaconsulting.com - Vail, CO

Paddy Deighan J.D. Ph.D

many states would impose a duty to disclose such a horrific event...or even the belief that there is paranormal activity

Jul 06, 2013 12:11 PM

Paul S. Henderson, REALTOR®, CRS

Fathom Realty Washington LLC - Tacoma, WA

South Puget Sound Washington Agent/Broker!

I have had several clients ask about death in a listing. I always refer them to the local law enforcement office...

Jul 06, 2013 12:34 PM

Margaret Rome Baltimore 410-530-2400

HomeRome Realty 410-530-2400 - Pikesville, MD

Sell Your Home With Margaret Rome

I had a buyer ask for proof in writing that there was never a death, of any kind, in the property. The seller could not comply...the sale did not go through.

Jul 06, 2013 12:49 PM

David Shamansky

US Mortgages - David Shamansky - Highlands Ranch, CO

Creative, Aggressive & 560 FICO - OK, Colorado Mtg

That's so horribly wrong I cannot believe that's still allowable. It is in our state of Colorado as well but if you ASK the seller MUST disclose so we ask every time we ever looked at a home as you NEVER know!

Jul 06, 2013 02:50 PM

Christine Donovan

Donovan Blatt Realty - Costa Mesa, CA

Broker/Attorney 714-319-9751 DRE01267479 - Costa M

Cindy - If the death was in the last three years, it needs to be disclosed in CA. Neighbors are going to tell the new people.

Jul 06, 2013 04:40 PM

John F Muscarella

RIVER FARM PROPERTIES, LLC - Venice, FL

Broker/Owner, Venice, FL, Florida's Suncoast

I have never had a murder to disclose but was asked to verify in writing there were no signs of ghosts or hauntings.

Jul 06, 2013 08:42 PM

Gary L. Waters Broker Associate, Bucci Realty

Bucci Realty, Inc. - Melbourne, FL

Eighteen Years Experience in Brevard County

Although not required I say go ahead and disclose it. An earlier comment mentioned how he had a signed disclosure. Always good to cover yourself.

Jul 06, 2013 09:34 PM

Wayne Zuhl

Remax First Realty II - Cranford, NJ

The Last Name You'll Ever Need in Real Estate

NJ is a full disclosure state so it's unconscionable to me that someone wouldn't disclose such a thing.

Jul 06, 2013 10:07 PM

Marco Giancola

Beachfront Realty - Miami Beach, FL

Realtor (305)608-1922, Miami Beach Florida

Even though it was not required to disclose a murder in FL the agent showing me a waterfront house I was personally interested in did-BIG TIME! It was a crime of passion and I felt unbothered by it and bought it for half the market value. 5 years later I sold it for almost 10 times what I paid for it. Many ways to look at a situation.

Jul 06, 2013 11:04 PM

Suzanne Otto

Six Twenty Designs - Lansdale, PA

Your Montgomery County PA home stager

I think if I liked the house enough, I'd get over it. But I've never been in that situation, so I can only say!

Jul 06, 2013 11:42 PM

Joanna Cohlan

Fresh Eyes For Your Home - Chappaqua, NY

Designing, Decorating & Staging Westchester Homes

I have to say that if I liked a house enough, I'd get over it too-but love your REDRUM allusion-perfect for this situation!

Jul 07, 2013 12:46 AM

Gary Frimann, CRS, GRI, SRES

Eagle Ridge Realty / Signature Homes & Estates - Gilroy, CA

REALTOR and Broker

In CA we Must disclose a death on the property. I think it is bad law, as the alleged dimunition of value cannot really be determined... What if it was the death of an intruder, or an uncle had a heart attack while visiting, or someone was home from the hospital for 3 days and was under hospice care? What if the person was not on title. The law is too ambiguous, I think. How long should a property be stigmatized?

Jul 07, 2013 01:39 AM

Cindy Westfall

Premiere Property Group,LLC Portland Metro & Suburbs Oregon - Tualatin, OR

ABR,GRI Your Tualatin & Portland Metro Real Estate

Tammie, It's interesting that the seller doesn't have to disclose as it might be "stigmatizing"..but yet a buyer doesn't have to know this.

Lisa, I think it's almost a given in very old homes and many buyers that just love older homes..like antiques love this about them. I agree that it's the people and attitude that live in a home..not the actual brick and mortar as someone mentioned early....but, it still does not negate the fact that the new owners were very unsettled when they found out.

Jill, I think the fact that the house was entirely new inside does help.

Bill, Wonder if it was the same buyers and if so why would they bring it up years later? I bet you were glad that you had the buyers sign that document. Good call.

Susan, Do the homes come with ghost certificates? Ultimately, it is up to the buyers to look into it before they purchase although I just went through the links that are supplied in the Oregon Buyer's Advisory and typed in the address and nothing comes up about this..even when you click the crime tab. \

Dennis, ouch...yes and lots of notariaty there for sure. The difference would be that the murder didn't actually happen in that home. All the best in getting those rented!

Jul 07, 2013 06:34 AM

Cindy Westfall

Premiere Property Group,LLC Portland Metro & Suburbs Oregon - Tualatin, OR

ABR,GRI Your Tualatin & Portland Metro Real Estate

Gay, As my old managing broker used to say "Never get between the question and the answer". Supplying links to sites where info can be found is the best way to do this.

Tim, That would be a major don't for sure

Jeff, Isn't that the truth. In Oregon though, the seller isn't required to..so not much a buyer can do after purchasing and finding out.

Praful, A buyer really needs to do lots of searching as even on supplied links this info wasn't readily available when I checked them yesterday ..after I knew what to look for. Page nine of google and not even showing up under crime in the neighborhood on a main site. It's not so easy for a buyer to find this kind of thing out. Best thing..talk to the neighbors BEFORE buying.

Jay and Michelle, Exactly!

Jane, Same here. Unfortunately, if the neighbors know and are asked..the house will still be a bit stigmatized if a buyer finds this info unsettling.

Michelle, It always good for a buyer to have as much info as they can about a home they are buying. Asking the right questions is key.

Jul 07, 2013 06:52 AM

Cindy Westfall

Premiere Property Group,LLC Portland Metro & Suburbs Oregon - Tualatin, OR

ABR,GRI Your Tualatin & Portland Metro Real Estate

Jimmy, In the case where the seller is not required to disclose, the listing agent always had the option of not taking it if not disclosing bothers them. I'd be curious to know if these new homeowners will disclose it when they eventually sell considering how they were a bit bothered by finding out the way they did.

Paddy, my guess is if they buyer/new owener had some issues with paranormal activity, there are other issues now to think about.

Paul, that is one of the best places to direct buyers to.

Margaret, That would be hard for any seller to know as unless the info is readily available, so you can't guarantee. Those buyers are perfect for new contruction :).

David, In some states this has changed like California...but in Oregon...a no disclose state. There has to be some good reasons why the state went in this direction. As some have mentioned..just too many variables.

Christine, This is a perfect reason why buyers should go and chat with the neighbors before they purchase. They get LOTS of info!

John, Can't see how you would be able to verify this..interesting.

Wayne and Jean, Since it doesn't need to be, it's up to the sellers if they want to disclose or not. Apparently it has no bearing on the actual home..more of phycological issue.

Jul 07, 2013 07:34 AM

Cindy Westfall

Premiere Property Group,LLC Portland Metro & Suburbs Oregon - Tualatin, OR

ABR,GRI Your Tualatin & Portland Metro Real Estate

Marco, The good thing was you knew about it going in and in didn't bother you. Sounds like you were able to get a profitable sale from it! All in the way one looks at it.

Suzanne, I hope they are able to just move past this and enjoy living in a great house. She had just heard this news when she called me..so was definitely jarred a bit. Of course the first question was if the seller had to disclose this.

Joanna, As a Stepen King fan, that was the first image that came to me.As I just said to Suzanne, I hope they will move past the stunned shock of it and enjoy the home.

Gary, those are probably the very reasons why we are a non disclosure state.

Jul 07, 2013 07:56 AM

Lloyd Binen

Certified Realty Services - Saratoga, CA

Silicon Valley Realtor since 1976; 408-373-4411

Cindy, ca-reep-pee. Not just a death, but a murder. It's not a required disclosure because OR hasn't had a lawsuit yet. That's what happened down here about 15 years ago in San Francisco. The buyer sued arguing that a death (not even a murder) in the house they just purchased WAS a material fact and therefore needed to be disclosed. The court agreed. Since that lawsuit it's considered a material fact that must be disclosed within 3 years of the death. (Unless it was from HIV/AIDS) I've had sellers disclose a death even after 12 years if it was a creepy death, like suicide. Disclose it and let the buyer decide if it's "material" for them. A spiritual cleansing is a good idea. But that's creepy and should have been disclosed.

Jul 11, 2013 01:35 PM

Cindy Westfall

Premiere Property Group,LLC Portland Metro & Suburbs Oregon - Tualatin, OR

ABR,GRI Your Tualatin & Portland Metro Real Estate

Hi Lloyd, From many of the comments, many don't really think it's an issue...but I like your "Disclose it and let the buyer decide if it's material for them".Every one is different and when making a big purchase they should be the ones to decide if they are OK wth it or not. Worse to find out after the fact.

Jul 11, 2013 02:07 PM

Lynn B. Friedman CRS Atlanta, GA 404-617-6375

Atlanta Homes ODAT Realty - Love our Great City - Love our Clients! Buckhead - Midtown - Westside - Atlanta, GA

Concierge Service for Our Atlanta Sellers & Buyers

Dear Cindy -
The GA contract has a similar clause with a link as well. It is helpful to point that out when going through the contract I believe.

The Agent is in a bind whether to reveal or not. I like it that I may teach my Buyers how to research for themselves to discover what they want to now.

Have a happy day -
Lynn

Nov 28, 2013 09:34 AM