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A Response to Glen Kelman of Redfin on "Dual Agent" Transactions

By
Managing Real Estate Broker with Howard Hanna Rand Realty License # 49FA1074963

J Philip Real EstateIf you read Inman News, it is likely that you have seen the story on Redfin's blog entitled "Sellers Lose in Dual Agency." Glen Kelman, CEO of Redfin, had his firm look at the data covering 230,000 closed deals and concluded that homes sold in what REDFIN deems to be dual agent transactions sold for 1.6% less than transactions where a buyer agent was involved. In Redfin's post, Mr Kelman was gracious to link to my own counterpoint from a little while back. He disagrees, but does not address any specifics. 

I don't know about you, but if I were a consumer and read that I could get a deal for 95.6% of asking through the listing agent instead of 97.2% with my own rep, I'd fire my buyer agent and just deal directly with listing agents. I don't think he meant to do this, but I don't see how many members of the public would not unwittingly draw this conclusion. 

Part of my comment follows: 

Full disclosure: I was Redfin's first partner agent when they opened business in New York. I remain good friends with Michael Daly, who is, in my view, a valuable asset to their enterprise and a top shelf man. 

In one of those transactions, a Redfin buyer client, after months of looking with me, ended up wanting to see one of my own listings. On the advice of Redfin's Kevin Broveleit, I stepped back and designated an agent in my firm for both buyer and seller, as I am principal broker. This was an "in house sale" where I got MLS credit on both sides, but was not the type of dual agency Mr Kelman refers to. The devil in the details is that Redfin is assuming that MLS credit to one agent includes in house sales where buyer and seller had designated agents (which Redfin does engage in themselves) or simply a buyer customer who did not have the fiduciary service from the listing agent whose client remained the seller. Neither of those cases is the dual agency Redfin warns against.

In New York (which were three of the largest counties in the Redfin study), concluding that MLS credit to one agent in a transaction is dual agency is supremely erroneous. It could have been an "in house" sale where both buyer and seller had their own designated agent-something Redfin themselves engage in- or the buyer was simply a customer (as opposed to the seller client) who had no fiduciary representation from the listing agent. I am sure this is the case in many areas outside of New York. In order to know if there was really dual agency, you have to open the confidential file and read the agency disclosure. I've met Glen twice and we shook hands, but I never showed him any file, even on deals where Redfin referred me business. 

J Philip Real EstateThe data that Redfin uses to come to their conclusions is their IDX or Virtual Office feed from the MLS systems they belong to. How do I know this? They told me. This data is meant for consumer searches. It populates websites where consumers look for homes. It isn't really a data pool that is meant for such a deep drilling matter as agency disclosure. A few months ago, when Redfin attempted to publish "field reports" of agent statistics, they had to end the project because the accuracy was a problem. I believe the same problem occurs in this instance when they are using a pool of data that is not being utilized for the its true purpose. There simply isn't enough detail in IDX/VOW data feeds to analyze it properly for something as sensitive as agency representation and the consequences of such. 

For example, as I comented:

Do overpriced listings, which end up stale, sell for a higher percentage than aggressively priced homes that garner vast attention from cooperating firms? I think we know the answer. So, yes, listing agents often end up selling their overpriced inventory, (if they sell at all) themselves. And some of the "lowballers" do deal directly with the listing agent as part of their strategy. Even in those cases, with the seller as client and the buyer as customer, it is invalid to conclude that dual agency occurred. 

The devil is in the details. Without facts beyond raw sales and MLS credit, you can't normalize the data for crucial variables, which is a basic statistical principle. Rather than paint with a broad brush over 230,000 deals, I think there would be more value to look carefully at 100 or 250 transactions. I don't believe for a minute that buyers get a better deal with the listing agent directly, and I don't think Glen would build a business modeled on that either. 

Redfin would do better to build their brokerage to be profitable and sustainable so that they never need another dime of venture capital, and leave the statistical analysis to the people with superior data. Those people would probably not be brokers. Any analysis that makes a buyer conclude they'll get a batter deal without a true representative does those buyers no service. 

Richard Weisser
Richard Weisser Realty - Newnan, GA
Richard Weisser Retired Real Estate Professional

Phil...

I wonder why these people get all of the media attention. They come across as well ... stupid!

Feb 24, 2012 12:48 PM
Gabe Sanders
Real Estate of Florida specializing in Martin County Residential Homes, Condos and Land Sales - Stuart, FL
Stuart Florida Real Estate

As with most data, when compiling it for reports, it's not to difficult to have it show what you want it to show. The theory behind why these numbers are like that is a whole different enchilada!

Feb 24, 2012 06:55 PM
Melissa Zavala
Broadpoint Properties - Escondido, CA
Broker, Escondido Real Estate, San Diego County

You certainly make a compelling argument. I have to now go read all of the other things you refer to here.

Feb 24, 2012 10:01 PM
Craig Rutman
Helping people in transition - Cary, NC
Raleigh, Cary, Apex area Realtor

Rather than just run a business, RedSpin consistently seems to sell from a negative point of view.

Rule #1 in sales: Never sell from a negative.

Feb 24, 2012 10:43 PM
Karen Crowson
Coldwell Banker Residential Brokerage - Rancho Bernardo, CA
Your Agent for Change
Chris Ann points out a key prblem with data in general. The data collected from MLS feeds all over the country doesn't necessarily use the same set of fields, making it hard to be precise or consistent. And what's the definition of dual agency anyway? Technically, if two agents in my office are involved in the same transaction, it's dual agency. However, most people are ok with that. It's the same brokerage, same agent for both buyer and seller is the dual agency that is a little less comfortable for some.
Feb 24, 2012 11:12 PM
Marcy Moyer
eXp Realty of California Silicon Valley Probate, Trust, and Investment Sales - Mountain View, CA
Probate, Trust, and Investment Specialist

If Coldwell Banker, REmax, Keller Williams, or the big local companies never represented both sides very little real estate would happen. Since the big guys have bought up most of the little guys in my market I would guess a huge percentage of transactions in the Silicon Valley are Dual Agency, even though very few are the same agent.

Feb 25, 2012 12:06 AM
Ginny Gorman
RI Real Estate Services ~ 401-529-7849~ RI Waterfront Real Estate - North Kingstown, RI
Homes for Sale in Southern RI and beyond

Phil, i read this post the other day & said dang that's good!  Came back to comment & just reading all the comments just gets me going on R@#$in  ...great comments here too...we all know their will always be agents that double end a deal and always incite the seller to take it...but not dual agency anymore in this state if in the same office..

Feb 25, 2012 12:15 AM
Brad Baylor
ERA Coup Agency - Milton, PA

I have to be honest here... I don't like when I'm a dual agent, and I hope someday to not have to do that anymore.  Financially, right now I have to, but someday, I'm not going to do it anymore.  I just don't see how you can help either party when you can't advise them on what they should offer or accept.  Just my take...

Feb 25, 2012 12:41 AM
Kimo Jarrett
Cyber Properties - Huntington Beach, CA
Pro Lifestyle Solutions

Regardless of a RE agents dual agency status, closing a transaction can certainly be achieved with fearless professionalism. The reports and statistical data from any organization must be segmented and analyzed as you have done to validate its conclusions. Good job in illustrating the data.

Feb 25, 2012 01:33 AM
Beth Fread
Valley Views Realty - Palmer, AK

Great Post; wonderful supporting comments.  There are times when both sides are superbly represented by a single person.  None of these articles, nor the "Buyer Rep Only" opinions seem to recognize that some transactions just work better with only one person in the middle. 

Obviously, this is not the "norm" otherwise, it would not be an issue.  Stepping outside of the norm, using innovative negotiation to meet both sides' wants/ needs, and non-confrontational cooperation can sometimes only occur when each side has a focal point for filtering emotion and stating fact.  Quite frankly, separate representatives can sometimes cloud the negotiations with separate emotions.

Feb 25, 2012 01:51 AM
Cynthia Larsen
Cotati, CA
Independent Broker In Sonoma County, CA

"Leave the statistical analysis to the people with superior data" ... yeah, no kidding. And how about someone who is impartial as well. Wow ... a brokerage alluding to buyers that no representation could land them a better deal. I can't quite wrap my head around it. How dangerously irresponsible.

Feb 25, 2012 02:25 AM
Brian Hayes
Horizon Investment and Management - Bountiful, UT

I find this interesting. I just spent two days getting my ABR through my local board. We spent a great deal of time discussing agency. There were a lot of opinions about the all of the pros and cons. I wish I had had this before I sat in that class. This would have really stirred the bees nest. As one class mate put it "There is nothing thats creates more debate in real estate than the subject of agency." Timely. Thanks for the post.

Feb 25, 2012 07:52 AM
Jirius Isaac
Isaac Real Estate &TriStar Mortgage - Kenmore, WA
Real Estate & loans in Kenmore, WA

There are so many ways to interpret dat that is possible to conclude whatever one wants to when you look at it.  I am here in Seattle area & so am very familiar with Redfin.  they have good agents, but because of their mode of operation, they do not spend much time on each tranacation.  I can alomst always do a better job for a buyer.  For the seller, there is not even a question about it.

Feb 25, 2012 09:01 AM
Monica Hill
RE/Max Associates - Wilmington, DE
the REALTOR to help you discover Delaware

Philip,

So many flaws with the Redfin's analysis. Like others have noted, the 1.6% doesn't take into consideration tiered commissions, which might make the 1.6 a great win-win for buyers and sellers. Short-sighted, slanted, and all of it leading to a mis-informed public. Always scary that consumers will read that and take it as gospel because it IS in print.

Great post. Great light shed on the subject. 

Feb 25, 2012 10:23 AM
Gene Riemenschneider
Home Point Real Estate - Brentwood, CA
Turning Houses into Homes

My high school history teacher taught me two things - Figures Lie and Liars Figure; and There are Liars, Damned Liars, and staticians.  

Feb 25, 2012 11:49 AM
Marte Cliff
Marte Cliff Copywriting - Priest River, ID
Your real estate writer

Mark Twain said there are three kinds of lies: "Lies, damn lies, and statistics."

We also learned in science class that you start out with what you want to prove, then gather the facts to back it up.

So you have to be selective in gathering those facts, so what? You proved your point, and that's what you were after.

There's a whole lot of that going on these days.

Feb 25, 2012 02:47 PM
Thomas McCombs
Century 21 HomeStar - Akron, OH

We have all see the t-shirt: "If you can not convince 'em with logic, dazzle 'em with BS"

How can anyone know how much was saved by using any pariticular type of agent?

Maybe we ahould run a study to determine how much is saved by closing on a Wednesday instead of a Tuesday! I'll bet we could gather statistics that would show that 1.4589% of the listing price was saved.

Feb 26, 2012 12:26 AM
Linda Jamail Marshall
Linda Marshall,Houston Texas, Linda Marshall, Realtors® - Houston, TX
Broker, ABR,QSC,RECS,ACRE - Innerloop Houston, Tex

I completely agree with Gene #53, you can make anything say what you want slanted the right way on presentation.

Feb 26, 2012 12:36 AM
Mike McCann Nebraska Land Broker
Mike McCann - Broker, Mach1 Realty Farm & Commercial Land Broker-Auctioneer Serving Nebraska - Kearney, NE
Farm & Commercial Property For Sale 308-627-3700

I operate as a dual agent all the time.  using Redfins numbers...100% of my clients the past two years are farther ahead than if I had co-op'd the deal.  Thanks Redfin for validating how I do business!!

But in all honesty...I agree with Thomas #55 and Gene #53!

Feb 26, 2012 02:42 AM
Bob Miller
Keller Williams Cornerstone Realty - Ocala, FL
The Ocala Dream Team

Hi JP, in Florida dual agency is against the law but we use "transaction brokerage" which requires we deal fairly with all parties not what Refin is suggesting.

Feb 26, 2012 07:15 AM