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The Real Estate Alchemist, Part III

By
Real Estate Agent with Century 21 Results Realty GA RE Lic # 282060

This one has been kicking around in my head for a few days.  I read this around the same time that I read the info for the previous installments of The Real Estate Alchemist. (I & II).  As I read it, it was troubling me.  I know that from what I have seen, the limited service brokerages haven't done well for consumers, but here was evidence to the contrary... I had to think a bit...

Here is what started occurring to me...

First, let me toss out a couple of quotes and some links.  These are in chronological order as the data has been revisited several times.  Also, please note that the market was cruising pretty well during the study period. 

The results were striking; Redfin customers paid on average under asking price, whereas customers of all other brokerages paid on average over asking price. The difference in negotiations was .9% of the home price, equivalent in King County to over $4,000, on top of a commission refund of nearly $10,000.

What makes this noteworthy is that the data did not come from Redfin, but from the MLS, from the brokers themselves who contribute to the MLS. Any brokerage can validate the data by following the instructions available in the appendix of our report.

Already, the Seattles Times reviewed the report and picked up the story in yesterday’s big Sunday spread.

Perhaps there is another way to evaluate whether traditional agents negotiate better than Redfin agents; until there is, the most likely conclusion is that Redfin agents negotiate better than their more expensive counterparts.      Redfin Blog entry.  A year's worth of data...

 

Publishing MLS data that shows that Redfin got a better deal for buyers than agents at other brokerages sparked a riot yesterday: here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here. We also showed up in Freakonomics (holy cow!).       Redfin Blog entry.  Here we stand...

 

We originally reported that our King County buyers got a final price of 99.329% below list, whereas King County customers of other brokerages paid 100.233% above list. This is factually correct. But one transaction should have been adjusted to account for a commission refund applied to the purchase price, so as to isolate the negotiating capabilities of Redfin and its customers. Making this adjustment leads to an average final price 99.340% below list.

With this adjustment, the negotiating advantage we claimed to be .904% is .893%. This reduces Redfin’s negotiating advantage by $54, from 4,474 to $4,420. This advantage is still financially meaningful and statistically significant, but we are nonetheless unhappy with ourselves for the error.   Redfin Blog Entry.  OK, we can be moved...

Doesn't look good, does it?  I didn't think so.  But, then I started thinking.  When the smoke cleared, I came up with a list.

  • How were unrepresented buyers handled in the statistics? 
  • How were other discount broker clients handled?
  • How were closing costs and other non-price concessions dealt with?

I'm going to handle these one at a time.  There are some significant problems here.  

 How were unrepresented buyers handled in the statistics?

The whole study is about the negotiating ability of Redfin agents v. traditional agents.  However, in the methodology, Redfin didn't appear to strip out transactions where the listing agent and selling agent were the same.  So, where there was NO agent negotiating on behalf of the buyer, if the price was higher the penalty went to the traditional agent.  This could be significant.  

How were other discount broker clients handled?

This one is probably a wash, because there could have been discount brokers handling the seller side as well, but Redfin isn't the only discounter in the market, and there are plenty of cases (including within Redfin) where their agent does nothing but present the offer.  They don't study the comps, they don't consult on the price... the consumer does all of that.  It is an unknowable.  It might not have a significant effect... but should be acknowledged.   

How were closing costs and other non-price concessions dealt with?

This is the biggest one of these objections to their data.  Purchase price doesn't always reflect the cost of the property.  In fact, in about 70% of transactions, it doesn't reflect the net price.  The most common alteration would come from "seller paids" and the most common of these is closing costs.  Of course, it is the first thing that buyers (and even sellers) forget after the sale.  Redfin doesn't address how they dealt with it.  Almost as a matter of course, I ask for 3% in closing costs for my buyer client.  This money will cover things like loan origination fees and other costs.  Generally, we try to get any balance over what is needed as a decoration allowance.  So, Redfin quotes their advantage as just under 1%.  What percentage of costs did they get covered for their buyer?  And, what percentage did the other agents get?  Did they pay 101% of list but get 3% in costs netted back to the buyer?  

The other side of the coin, related but more difficult to track is improvements.  For me it has normally come from new home sales, but it has also happened with resales.  One of my new home sales was 115% of list price.  Looking at that, I must be terrible.  But, my clients loaded the house with upgrades.  LOADED.  In fact, we negotiated the builder down to half price on the upgrade package.  We are talking about a savings of $45,000.  And the builder kicked in 3% for closing costs and a further 5% for a decorator's allowance.  So, the list price was $300,000.  The sales price was $345,000.  The total without the discounts and allowances was $417,000.  But, according to Redfin's methodology, my client didn't get a discount from $417k, but rather an overpayment from $300k.  That can be a pretty significant change.

 

So, I think Redfin needs to go back and look at the data more closely.  I would love to have the raw data set to look through.  Although, there are the unknowables (in the previously example, the $45,000 in discounts on upgrades would not show up unless one had the contract and the builder's price list), it would give a much better picture.   The bottom line is that stats can be manipulated pretty easily to show what the presenter wants to show.

But, I don't know that Redfin really wants to run those numbers... 

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Comments(9)

Renée Donohue~Home Photography
Savvy Home Pix - Allegan, MI
Western Michigan Real Estate Photographer

Hmmmm where was the deviation from market value.  Just because it was a percentage of the list price, doesn't necessarily mean it is a good deal :)

:wink:

Good synopsis Lane!

Mar 16, 2008 04:26 AM
Fred Carver Real Estate Consulant
Retired BC Realtor - Victoria, BC
Accredited Real Estate Consultant

Hi Lane...looks like a lot of research on your part, oh course that's what full service Realtors Do. my Questions Where do the Redfin Buyer get advice on Value etc, do they also pay someone else for this advise like an Appriser?

Cheers, have a great day!

Mar 16, 2008 04:52 AM
Larry Brewer - Benchmark Realty llc
Benchmark Realty LLc - Nashville, TN
Any time the buyer pays more than list price, you know why. Mayber redfin doesn't ask for any additional seller pays, or maybe the sellers don't want to do it for redfin customers. It's illegal for for rebates in Tennessee, but I know that builders here would probably look unfavorably toward this practice. Why not just lower the price.
Mar 16, 2008 04:52 AM
Terry & Bonnie Westbrook
Westbrook Realty Broker-Owner - Grand Rapids, MI
Westbrook Realty - Grand Rapids Forest Hills MI Re
I just proves that the buyers and sellers have to do what they feel comfortable with and given enough data I can make a case for either situation. Thanks for the research and putting it all together.
Mar 16, 2008 07:09 AM
Cynthia Tilghman, Realtor® Onslow County NC Home Specialist
Kingsbridge Realty, Inc - Hubert, NC
Lane,
Interesting,  you certainly have done your homework.  
Mar 16, 2008 07:10 AM
Lane Bailey
Century 21 Results Realty - Suwanee, GA
Realtor & Car Guy

Renee - I am right there with you.  I wrote a post on my outside blog about Price /= Value.  But, determining value would be quite difficult. 

Fred - Redfin did the research.  I ust read their stuff and am shooting it down.  

Larry - The builders shouldn't care if the buyer's agent rebates commission to the buyer, but I do wonder what the total deal is for Redfin clients.  

Terry - Thank you.  I think that there is a solution for almost everyone.  

Cynthia - Just a little blog reading.  

Mar 16, 2008 07:39 AM
Melina Tomson
Tomson Burnham, llc Licensed in the State of Oregon - Salem, OR
Principal Broker/Owner, M.S.
Net prices to sellers and seller concessions to buyers are imperative when making comparisons.  Unfortunately, we don't have a good way to track those on the MLS. Until then, the data is flawed.
Mar 16, 2008 07:46 AM
Lane Bailey
Century 21 Results Realty - Suwanee, GA
Realtor & Car Guy
Melina - I guess we are lucky that in our MLS we have seller paids in the solds.  I always use net prices for CMAs.
Mar 16, 2008 03:47 PM
Ken Montville
RE/MAX United Real Estate - College Park, MD
The MD Suburbs of DC

I may be wrong about this but it looks like Redfin's statistical analysis is a snapshot of King County, Washington activity.  You can do this type of thing almost anywhere.  In fact, I learned this method from Russel Shaw, a heavy hitter down near Phoenix.  The gist is to work an area where you can drum up pretty good stats for yourself. You then compare your own stats (good, bad or indifferent) to all the other Realtors working or having had any listings in that area.

It's relatively easy to make yourself look like the Big Kahuna compared to Realtors that may have had one listing, a couple of over priced listings, listings in poor condition, poorly marketed listings, etc. and so on.I do this myself in a couple of geographic farms I market.  Ken Montville Days on Market = [insert real but low number here], ALL other Realtors = [insert high aggregate average number].  Really, you just need a little bit of data so you can brag on yourself truthfully.

It makes you look downright studly.

Mar 17, 2008 02:31 PM